Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Asking from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly

Rate this topic


Cool

Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member
On 10/22/2021 at 8:13 PM, Cool said:

So no one is calling Jesus as God. Not even Dave. He is very clear that Jesus (عليه السلام), in his whole being/self, is a manifestation of God's names.

 

On 10/22/2021 at 7:16 PM, Cool said:

[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star,

Hi I find your interpritaion of this verse helpful.  It explains your points.  You see God as the ultimate light and then there are people (prophets? imams?) who reflect that light or who shine as a star rather than the sun.

When I look at Jesus the Messiah through this verse it makes me remember a saying of Jesus recorded faithfully by his friend John (chapter 8:12)

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’

Jesus the Messiah was claiming to be more than just a "likness of God's light" but to actually be that light dispelling all darkness and bring true light and life into people's lives.

Yes Jesus is the visible manifestation of more than just God's names but of God's nature and character as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/24/2021 at 4:31 PM, Bram Jam said:

We must unite together and form a new identity and become independent of the current made up theology of ahlo bait. We worship Allah ( (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ) not his servants. They never taught such things eather. No where in nahjul balaga does Immam Ali ((عليه السلام)) associate with Allah. He preaches absolute oneness of Allah.

We can unite by starting to claim we are not an identity of Human titled sects, rather we are just a Muslim. 
 

- teach a “Sunni” what you think he needs to know about Ahlul Bayt, if you care enough, you can give him his proof. If not, you can say Allahuma ini Balaght which means, god knows I tried or warned. 
We can all be Muslims and learn from each other. If someone is doing something haram, inform them. Don’t claim he is not a Muslim, Unless you have valid proof from the Quran. Otherwise we fall as a hypocrite. Preaching that we don’t know of. 
 

Jazak Allah 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

Jesus is definitely the truth and the light. 
If you FOLLOW him you follow god. 
 

many people have taken this as a 

“in other words I’m saying I am god”

and Muslims take it as 

“he is defiantly the truth, he brought the message of god and telling everyone to follow his works” 

You and cool went further and are in the middle 

“he is definitely the truth and the word of god, if we follow him we know god. Thank you Jesus (or Ali) in the name of god” 

 

—— what you and cool fail to understand is thst yes they are important figures, yes they do the work of god, but no they do not want the credit, no they don’t want to be associated (whether you claim it’s association or not) you are associating gods work with a prophet/leader. 
 

God has 0 partners, although we can consider his messengers are partners in this world to communicate with us, GOD HAS 0 PARTNERS. HE IS INCOMPARABLE. He doesn’t NEED the messengers nor Jesus nor Imam Ali, if he wanted he could contact us directly. ALLAH chooses to do as he pleases. And he chose this way. But he has made it clear not to associate anybody with him. 
 

why are you guys saying “ya Jesus/Ali (in the name of Allah) thank you for everything) 

In your logic, rather you should be saying 

“ya Jesus/Ali/Muhammad/Abraham/Musa/zakariah/ismael/Isaac/adam thank you all”

 

but no, you chose Ali and Jesus because you’re a sheep without you knowing it. Learn how to respect and truly love these two leaders, by respecting that they care about Allah  not you

GOODLUCK

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 10/25/2021 at 4:17 AM, Bram Jam said:

Allah's names are the ninety-nine known names. Not the names of his servants. Also, when you call to Allah, you call him directly. Not his servants 

Allah's Holy Names are NOT His Essence, but MEANs to reach Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Holy Names are not defined as Servants.

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are both, they are Pure Servants and Means to reach Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Love the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) means loving Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And we must love Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the way Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) love Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because Ahlulbayt are real Pure Servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  If Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are not MEAN to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then loving them will lead to nowhere.

We can be close to Pure Servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and ask them to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because they are also MEANs to reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

We can be close to Ahlulbayt and unite spiritually with them, until we become like Salman(رضي الله عنه).  "Salman is from Ahlulbayt".  Salman is very close to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Quran and Islam are known through Ahlulbayt(عليه السلام), and we need them as MEANs to know Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Quran and Islam...in particular how to correctly worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and calling Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  using Holy Names. We need to unite with Ahlulbayt spiritual to correctly worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), as Salman (رضي الله عنه) did.  

Never try to be ahead of Ahlulbayt when in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Otherwise, we loss the sense of being a real servant (Abdullah).  Iblis will occupy our souls and show that we can directly address to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not through Ahlulbayt.  Umar and Abu Bakr did that to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Iblis refused to submit to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through Adam (عليه السلام), and what is inside Adam (عليه السلام) is the Nuur of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  With that Nuur, Adam (عليه السلام) has the knowledge to teach Names to Angels and to reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the approved way.  Iblis did not see that coming, because he believed that he can reach Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly as he did in millions of years before Adam (عليه السلام) and this is nothing new for him. He was wrong.

Certainly, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has elevated Ahlulbayt to the level of Pure-ness that many don't understand.

Wallahualam.

Edited by layman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 10/25/2021 at 4:31 AM, Bram Jam said:

We must unite together and form a new identity and become independent of the current made up theology of ahlo bait. We worship Allah ( (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ) not his servants. They never taught such things eather. No where in nahjul balaga does Immam Ali ((عليه السلام)) associate with Allah. He preaches absolute oneness of Allah.

To be a servant of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to be on "siratul mustaqeem".  On that path we are united as ONE with all servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from Adam (عليه السلام) while we alive on this earth.  We communicate with each other.  We understand each other issues, pains and sufferings. We share happiness together. We worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) together, in jamaah in Baitullah.  We never separated, and we love each other and we willing give everything for that love.  Our love is derived from the ultimate love to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as a servant of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). We understood the real Tauhid.  Among us on the path there are the front row, subsequent rows until the last rows (there are rank based on Pureness of souls).  Some may see it as we are sailing on the  Ark of Nuh. Our souls are Light that contains Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can communicate to each and our communication is limited among ourselves.  We didn't tell everything, because others do not understand.

 

We read many times in Salah so that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make us to be on the path... so be on the path! Don't bring us to Iblis.

Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.
[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray

On the PATH, the Real Oneness (Tauhid) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be realized in true sense.

Wallahualam 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
20 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

You see God as the ultimate light and then there are people (prophets? imams?) who reflect that light or who shine as a star rather than the sun.

I see God as a thing like of which there is nothing. So whatever I see or I can see, is not God in itself. What Prophets & Imams reflects is the light of divine names. They are the words of God, and we all are in a sense, words of God Almighty. 

And we neither worship His name, nor His words. We worship Him (Essence, Self).

قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ الْبَحْرُ مِدَادًا لِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّي لَنَفِدَ الْبَحْرُ قَبْلَ أَنْ تَنْفَدَ كَلِمَاتُ رَبِّي وَلَوْ جِئْنَا بِمِثْلِهِ مَدَدًا {109}

[Shakir 18:109] Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add

وَلَوْ أَنَّمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ أَقْلَامٌ وَالْبَحْرُ يَمُدُّهُ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ سَبْعَةُ أَبْحُرٍ مَا نَفِدَتْ كَلِمَاتُ اللَّهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ {27}

[Shakir 31:27] And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

20 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus the Messiah was claiming to be more than just a "likness of God's light"

There cannot be any "likeness" of God in the very first place. So there cannot be more or less to it as "like of him, there is nothing".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 10/26/2021 at 5:21 PM, Guest Guest said:

“he is defiantly the truth, he brought the message of god and telling everyone to follow his works” 

If this is the case Muslim people and yourself Mr Guest should be reading the Injil and learning what the message of God brought by Jesus is.  In recounting the life of Jesus the Messiah the Gospel writers are saying that it wasn't just the teaching of Jesus the Messiah that is God's message but his actual life, death and resurrection which embody and realise God's message.

On 10/26/2021 at 5:21 PM, Guest Guest said:

God has 0 partners, although we can consider his messengers are partners in this world to communicate with us, GOD HAS 0 PARTNERS. HE IS INCOMPARABLE. He doesn’t NEED the messengers nor Jesus nor Imam Ali, if he wanted he could contact us directly. ALLAH chooses to do as he pleases. And he chose this way. But he has made it clear not to associate anybody with him. 

I agree that God has no partners - there is none like him - he is unique - incomparable.  This means he can act, like you say, as he pleases.  And he chose a way to act to contact human people directly.  He chose to come himself and live among us and not just by word but by action and involvement in our messy painful lives to demonstrate and proclaim his love and mercy and justice and to open a way for us to be transformed.

On 10/26/2021 at 5:21 PM, Guest Guest said:

you’re a sheep without you knowing it.

My friend - I know I am a sheep.  A lost sheep, in need of a shepherd to find me and guide me to green pastures and through the dark valleys.  My Shepherd is Allah and his care for me is beyond measure.

David said in the Zebur - Psalms 23:1 "God - The Lord - is my shepherd, I shall lack nothing"

Jesus the Messiah said "I am the Good shepherd - I lay down my life for my sheep"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
22 hours ago, Cool said:

And we neither worship His name, nor His words. We worship Him (Essence, Self).

This is a great comment.  We worship only God.  There is none other worthy of our worship and service.

The question which I think this post is asking is how do we refer to this God?  When we worship him is our mind just empty because he can not be comprehended?  Or has he given us something to help us start to envisage who we are worshiping?

There are a number of points put forward - God's names help us to start to comprihend something about who we worship.  So refering to these words when we worship guides us to worship aright.  "O God you are The All Seeing help me to live every moment knowing you are watching me with your loving eyes"  "O God you are "The All Knowing I offer you my thoughts and motives because you know them completely may they be pure and have integrity"

Then there are prophets and leaders of God's community.  Their lives are supposed to be examples of how a godly person should live and worship.  However, there were times when they failed and we need to ask God to teach us to dissern what are their good and what are their bad examples.  It is not helpful to use these people's names when we address God.

As a follower of Jesus the Messiah, I add a third perspective and suggest that Jesus the Messiah through his perfect life, flawless teaching, and death and resurrection demonstrates clearly the God we worship and serve.  In his humble coming to earth we see God in a way we can begin to understand.  Making our worship and service pleasing and acceptable to God. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Al-Kafi

Chapter 17

 

Chapter on Another Chapter (Related) to the Previous Chapter

 

“May Allah, bestow up on you knowledge of the good, notice that Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is eternal. Eternity is that attribute which guides the wise that there was nothing before Him in eternity nor is there anything with Him eternal. That this attribute is a miraculous one has come to light from the acknowledgement of the ‘Ammah (common people) that there is nothing before Allah, with and after Him. At the same time, it invalidates the belief that there was something before or with Him. Had there been something with Him eternal He would not have been the Creator of that thing. If it was with Him how then He could have been its creator? Had there been something before Him then that thing might have been His creator because of its existing earlier.

Allah, the Most Holy, the Exalted, has ascribed certain names to Himself. He told His creatures when He created them, give them the ability to worship Him and made them responsible, to call Him with those names. He called Himself All-hearing, All-seeing, All-powerful, Guarding, Rationalizing, Manifest, Hidden, Subtle, All-aware, Powerful, Majestic, Wise, All-knowing and with such other similar names. When the animosity-mongers, who speak lies heard us mention such names as that there is nothing similar to Him and nothing of the creatures is like Him they began to speak out. “When you (the Imams ((عليه السلام).) say that there is nothing like Him and no one is similar to Him then how is it that you also have those beautiful names for yourselves? This is proof that you are similar to Him or in certain conditions and not in other conditions because of having all those beautiful names.” It is said to them that Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, made it necessary for His servants to have certain names from among His names with differences in their meanings. The difference is because one name may have two different meanings. One example is what people consider permissible and is widely used. This is the way Allah has addressed people. He has spoken to them by means of things that they understand so that they will have no excuse in their misdeeds.

A man is sometimes called a dog, a bull, sweet, bitter and a loin. All these are different from him and his conditions. The names were not used in their original meaning because man is not a loin or a dog etc. Note this carefully, may Allah grant you blessings.

Allah is called All-knowing. It is other than the created knowledge. With His knowledge of things He knows things and uses it to preserve His future commands and the process of whatever He creates of His creatures, destroys what He destroys of His creatures and without such knowledge He would have been weak and ignorant. We see that people of knowledge among people are called knowledgeable because of the created knowledge, which they did not have at one time. Perhaps such knowledge may go away from them and they become ignorant.

Allah is called All-knowing because He is not ignorant of anything. Thus, the Creator and created are both called as having knowledge but the meaning is different as you may have noticed.

Our Lord is called All-hearing but it is not through the perforated piece and with sound so He would hear with it but would not see with it, which is the case with us. We do not see with what we hear but Allah has told us that from Him nothing of the sounds is hidden. His hearing is not in the way we are called as hearing people. We are called as hearing but the meaning is different. In the same way is seeing not that He sees through a hole as we do and can not use it for other uses. Allah sees but not by looking to an object. We also are called as seeing but the meaning is different.

Allah is called Standing but not in the sense of standing in an upright position on the legs as is the case with the things but that He has said He is preserving as in the saying of a man, “standing for our affairs.” Allah stands over every soul and what it gains. The word standing is also in the usage of people. Words like remaining and standing also mean to suffice as in the words as you may say to a man, “Stand up over the affairs of so and so” which means deal with them in a sufficient manner. We stand on our legs, thus, the name is similar but the meaning is different.

The name, Subtle is not in the sense of fastidiousness or being infinitesimal but it is in the rarity and hard to perceive nature of things. As an example it may be said, “It has become very delicate for me and that so and so is very delicate in his manners and dealings.” This means that it is profound for intelligence and difficult to find. It has become bottomless and delicate so much that even imagination is not able to reach it. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is far Subtle to be comprehended through definitions or be combined in an attribute or in the way we are subtle, small and delicate. Names are the same but different in meaning.

The name al-Khabir, meaning All-aware, is for One Who knows all things completely but not by means of experience and learning lessons from the past. Experience and learning from mistakes are of the means of learning for people. Without them there would exist no knowledge. One without experience and learning lessons is an ignorant person. Allah is All-aware eternally of what He has created but well aware and expert among people are those who ask questions and learn. Our names are the same but they, again, are different in meaning.

The name al-Zahir meaning clear and conspicuous is not because of being over and on top of all things or sitting on them at their peak but it is because of His domination and having power over all things. An example of this is when a person says, “I over came my enemies or that Allah gave me victory over my enemies.” In this there is report of the failure and victory. Also there is Allah’s domination over all things. Another example is that His existence is clear for those who want (to know) Him. Nothing is hidden from Him and that He is the guardian of all that He has curved and fashioned. In such case whose existence can be clearer than Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High? You will not live without His creatures, no matter wherever you may be. Only within your own self there is enough of His creation. His existence by far is clearer than ours. He manifest all by His Own-self and is Known by His own self. We are of the same name but the meaning is different.

The name al-Batin, means hidden. This is not in the sense of being inside of things by means of diving or so but is in the sense of His dealing, having knowledge, preserving and regulating the inside of all things. As one may say, “I tried to find the inside to learn and discover the secrets.” Hidden for us is what is unseen and covered. In this case again our names are the same but different in meaning.

The name al-Qahir, means subduing. It is not in the sense of plotting, using certain devices and speaking attractive words or cunning means. It is not the way people subdue each other. The victorious among people may become subdued and vice versa. For Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High all the creatures have the garment of weakness on them. Due to the absence of obstacles in what He wills about them, it only takes less than a blinking of the eye to say it Be and it is, comes into existence. Subduing in our case is how I mentioned and explained. Our names are alike but the meaning is different. Thus, is the case for all the names although we have not mentioned all of them. For learning a lesson what we have mentioned for you is sufficient. May Allah be your and our helper in the matters of guidance and success.”

 


http://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=1015

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
  • Advanced Member
On 10/21/2021 at 3:10 PM, Abdul Rahim al-Hasan said:

 

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah,  All-Merciful, The Gracious

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad and hasten their alleviation


 

Muhammed (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt(عليه السلام)  know Allah like Allah wants to be known, and therefore they are manifestations of the most beautiful names of Allah in their actions and merits of understanding but they are not Allah, All-Knowing, All-Powerful and therefore only names of Allah can be used to Allah that are All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Wise, All-Just. Address sublications in prober way when you beseech Allah, All-Mighty by “Lord of Muhammed, Lord of Musa, Lord of Isa, Lord of Ibrahim, and Lord of Nuh.” and ask blessing from their Lord to oneself and Allah to bless them (عليه السلام) and their pure families (عليه السلام). Asking from Imam or asking from Rasul is asking from created and asking from the Lord of the creation knowing that Muhammed (عليه السلام) is the leader of the mankind and jinnkind and that Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) pure are the leaders of the Mankind and Jinnkind after Rasulullah (عليه السلام) is an acknowledgement of reality to understand those who need to be obeyed in matters of religion in this life and in the hereafter.

 

الله اَلْغَفُورلرَّحِيمِ

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

 

 

Bismillahi Irrahman Irrahiim

Allahumma sallialaa Muhammed wa Aali Muhammed.

I suppouse I was wrong. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
On 10/21/2021 at 7:27 AM, Cool said:

Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام), in his very being, is nothing but "ism e ilahi". Imams are "asma Allah ul husna" according to ahadith books. 

And I do believe that these purified servants are the purified divine names. Their very beings are nothing but the manifestations of divine names. In fact every thing in itself, is nothing but the manifestation of divine names. The manifestation of divine names in Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ali (عليه السلام), reached to its peak.

One could argue here that Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are not asma Ullah rather Kalimatullah which were uttered by Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and thus they were created from kun to fayqoon. Where is your reference that Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are asma Ullah and not Kalimatullah.

My reference:

Prophet (PBUHHP) said:

There is no doubt that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made a promise to me with regards to ‘Ali. I asked my Lord ‘What is it?’ Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said ‘Listen’, to which I replied ‘I am listening’. Verily Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said ‘Ali is the Flag of Guidance, Imam of the Saints, and the Light of Truth for those that follow me, and is that Kalima that has been made compulsory upon the Believers. Whoever loves him, loves me, whoever angers ‘Ali, angers Me, O Muhammad convey this good news to ‘Ali…”
Hilayath al Awliya, Volume 1, Page 66 & 67

Edited by Borntowitnesstruth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I haven't read all of the thread, but I thought this was interesting:

Quote

[Imam Zayn Al-Abideen (عليه السلام) said]:

"Allah Mighty and Majestic Commanded them [Shia] that they should be asking us, so He said:

"Therefore ask the people of the Reminder if you don’t know" [16:43]. So He commanded them that they should ask us, and the answering isn’t upon us. If we so desire to, we will answer, and if we so desire, we will not answer."

[Source: Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 20 H 8]

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
On 3/22/2022 at 6:14 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

One could argue here that Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are not asma Ullah rather Kalimatullah

Salam!!

Problem in this argument would be the fact that:

a) Every "ism" is a kalimah.

b) Every kalimah is not "ism".

Now regarding your question of providing evidence for my saying that Imams are "Asma Allah", please cite the following link:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1122_الكافي-الشيخ-الكليني-ج-١/الصفحة_192

On 3/22/2022 at 6:14 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

and thus they were created from kun to fayqoon. 

Well, my friend everything is created from kun. Even you and I too. Think about the day mentioned in Quran where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asked us الست بربكم. 

Interesting thing about the word "kun" (which represents the iradah of Allah) is that Allah's chosen ones have also created things by using the same word:

أَنِّىٓ أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلطِّينِ كَهَيْـَٔةِ ٱلطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ 

فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًۢا بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ

3:49) 

See the bolded word فيكون in above verse. This fayakoon is the reaction of "kun" obviously, done by Jesus (عليه السلام), by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Everything in Reality are manifestation of God names. The believers manifest in different grade the names of God but the greatest from them in grade are The Prophets and Imams. 

Shaytan manifest God name “The Deviator,” (al-Muḍill), because God deviate those who are evil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
39 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam!!

Problem in this argument would be the fact that:

a) Every "ism" is a kalimah.

b) Every kalimah is not "ism".

Now regarding your question of providing evidence for my saying that Imams are "Asma Allah", please cite the following link:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1122_الكافي-الشيخ-الكليني-ج-١/الصفحة_192

Well, my friend everything is created from kun. Even you and I too. Think about the day mentioned in Quran where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asked us الست بربكم. 

Interesting thing about the word "kun" (which represents the iradah of Allah) is that Allah's chosen ones have also created things by using the same word:

أَنِّىٓ أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلطِّينِ كَهَيْـَٔةِ ٱلطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ 

فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًۢا بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ

3:49) 

See the bolded word فيكون in above verse. This fayakoon is the reaction of "kun" obviously, done by Jesus (عليه السلام), by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Your link is in Arabic that I can't read.

Your defining that Every ism is Kalimah also defines that its separate from the one to whom they are attributed to. In that case, saying Ahlebait (عليه السلام) as Ism of Allah does not cause problem to Tauheed. However, it is to be kept in mind that certain Ism are reserved for the creator so that He (عزّ وجلّ) may be implied through such Ism just as through Ism of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), there can be no one else who may claim that He is Allah if he does so, he is out of fold of Islam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
9 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Your link is in Arabic that I can't read.

Salam!

Here is the hadith from that link:

الحسين بن محمد الأشعري ومحمد بن يحيى جميعا، عن أحمد بن إسحاق، عن سعدان بن مسلم، عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله عز وجل: " ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها " قال: نحن والله الأسماء الحسنى (1) التي لا يقبل الله من العباد عملا إلا بمعرفتنا.

The bolded part means "We, by God, are the most beautiful names of Allah"

12 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Your defining that Every ism is Kalimah also defines that its separate from the one to whom they are attributed to

Yes, it is the case. Even the ism Allah is not the zaat.  And that's why there exist هو before or after the ism Allah most of the times. For instance in this verse:

قل هو الله احد

The هو in above verse infact is pointing towards the "zaat" which is other than the "ism" (Allah). هو itself is one of the name of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

يا من هو لا هو الا هو

15 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

However, it is to be kept in mind that certain Ism are reserved for the creator so that He (عزّ وجلّ) may be implied through such Ism just as through Ism of Allah (عزّ وجلّ), there can be no one else who may claim that He is Allah if he does so, he is out of fold of Islam.

As Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself said " to Him belongs the most beautiful names" 

ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها

And have commanded us to call Him "through" these names. So they all are reserved for Him. 

Borntowitnesstruth cannot be you in anyway. It is "your" name not "you". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
24 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam!

Here is the hadith from that link:

الحسين بن محمد الأشعري ومحمد بن يحيى جميعا، عن أحمد بن إسحاق، عن سعدان بن مسلم، عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله عز وجل: " ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها " قال: نحن والله الأسماء الحسنى (1) التي لا يقبل الله من العباد عملا إلا بمعرفتنا.

The bolded part means "We, by God, are the most beautiful names of Allah"

Yes, it is the case. Even the ism Allah is not the zaat.  And that's why there exist هو before or after the ism Allah most of the times. For instance in this verse:

قل هو الله احد

The هو in above verse infact is pointing towards the "zaat" which is other than the "ism" (Allah). هو itself is one of the name of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

يا من هو لا هو الا هو

As Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself said " to Him belongs the most beautiful names" 

ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها

And have commanded us to call Him "through" these names. So they all are reserved for Him. 

Borntowitnesstruth cannot be you in anyway. It is "your" name not "you". 

It means that every name takes us to a zaat. Therefore, it is considered as directly calling upon Him but it is more dear to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) if we have intercessory who is more pious than you to plead our case before Allah (عزّ وجلّ,).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Bismillahi Irrahman Irrahiim

 

Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatuh,

 

Imams (عليه السلام) are not the greatest name of Allah. Even if one asks Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to pray for oneself one can only do it by asking Allah to ask them to pray.

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ ٥

 

You ˹alone˺ we worship and You ˹alone˺ we ask for help.

 

 

Edited by Abdul Rahim al-Hasan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, Abdul Rahim al-Hasan said:

 

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ ٥

Salam, 

Irrespective of what you understand from the quoted hadith (نحن اسماء الله الحسني), I would like to invite your attention to the phrase :

اياك نعبد

(You alone do we worship)

So get your self ready for offering salah. You first need to say the adhan then the aqamah. And what you say in adhan? Allaho Akbar 4 times, Ashhado an la ilaha ilAllah 2 times, Ashhado anna Muhammadan rasoolullah 2 times.... 

Where this second testimony comes here in adhan? And how it is related with the phrase "You alone do we worship"? 

The same is repeated in aqamah. Again I have the same question. 

Now you come to offer tashahud, there again you testify that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a servant and prophet of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And then your offering the durood which include Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Aal e Muhammad (عليه السلام), How this relates with the phrase "You alone do we worship". 

Then you end your salah on saying the  salam, assalamo alaika ayyuhan nabiyu wa rehmatullahe wabarakatuh, how this relates to the phrase "You alone do we worship"? Every one can see that here Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appears as hazir o nazir. 

So when "You alone do we worship" doesn't contradicts with your including the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his pure progeny in the act of worship known as salah which is said to be a معراج for mo'mineen, how can they start contradicting when you comes to the next phrase اياك نستعين (You alone do we seek help)?  

Hope that you may find answers to these questions.

Wassalam!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
3 hours ago, EiE said:

If we are not asking from Allah, who else is there to provide for us? Allah is the provider.

This is not the point. We all believe that everyone asks from Him:

يَسْأَلُهُ مَنْ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ كُلَّ يَوْمٍ هُوَ فِي شَأْنٍ

55:29) All those who are in the heavens and the earth ask of Him; every moment He is in a state (of glory).

Infact everyone is submitting to Him willingly or unwillingly:

وَلَهُۥٓ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا

3:82) to Him (have) submitted whatever (is) in the heavens and the earth willingly or unwillingly

Point here is that we always need to establish contact with our Creator "through" something. In this case, we are talking about establishing contact with Him "through" His names. His names are not Him, names are something other than Him. So we always need a wasilah, there us no way we can "directly" approach Him. A direct contact would means one has either saw Him, touched Him etc. This is according to us, is not possible for creation. 

Wassalam!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Cool said:

This is not the point. We all believe that everyone asks from Him:

يَسْأَلُهُ مَنْ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ كُلَّ يَوْمٍ هُوَ فِي شَأْنٍ

55:29) All those who are in the heavens and the earth ask of Him; every moment He is in a state (of glory).

Infact everyone is submitting to Him willingly or unwillingly:

وَلَهُۥٓ أَسْلَمَ مَن فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا

3:82) to Him (have) submitted whatever (is) in the heavens and the earth willingly or unwillingly

Point here is that we always need to establish contact with our Creator "through" something. In this case, we are talking about establishing contact with Him "through" His names. His names are not Him, names are something other than Him. So we always need a wasilah, there us no way we can "directly" approach Him. A direct contact would means one has either saw Him, touched Him etc. This is according to us, is not possible for creation. 

Wassalam!!

You are right, even if God directly talk to us, it is still creation of voice that reach our ear and forms understanding and comprehension. If we see God directly, surely it would mean seeing one of His creation and not God Itself. God can create and choose whomever He want to represent Himself, but they are not God Himself. 

Imams (عليه السلام), Prophets (عليه السلام) , Angels (عليه السلام) are God best names and through them God manifest His names. Malik Al Mawt manifest God name of taking the life, Jibrael the power of God, Sulaiman the Kingdom of God etc. 

Edited by Abu Nur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...