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In the Name of God بسم الله

Asking from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly

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Salamun Alaikum, 

I am posting a simple question with a hope that someone from Shia, Reformist Shia or Non-Shia would help me understand this matter. So here is the question:

Can we ask something directly from "Allah"? 

Let me elaborate the problem why I am asking this question. Allah is the name of the One who owns it. So when we say "O Allah" we are calling Him "through" His name. That is not a "direct contact" with the very Wajood of "Wajib al Wujood". So is there anyway we can establish a "direct contact" with Him, without even needing the names?

Even His state of namelessness is addressed by expressing هو. That too is not the "direct contact" with Him. 

And I see the problem with ourselves, we cannot directly contact each other too. We have names and "through" them we call each other. The only way where anyone directly contact me is to touch, to see, to hear the sound produced by me. 

So asking directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) means what? While He has said that His are the most beautiful names, call Him "through" them (فادعو بها). 

Is this not our limit? Showing that whatever means we have to directly contact each other are not applicable to Him. We cannot touch, see or hear Him. 

So when one says that "O Allah, grant me so & so", is he asking his needs from the ism or from the Sahib e ism? 

Similarly, If anyone understand, as some ahadith mentions, that Imams are the asma ul husna, and calling "Ya Ali, grant me so & so" is he asking his need from the ism or from the Sahib e ism? 

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The difference I can see is that the "ism (name)" Allah, is not the Wajood. While the wajood of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or rest of the Aimma (عليه السلام), is the ism of Wajib al-Wujood (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

And for proving that, we see in Quran verses where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions that you did not threw the peebles, it is Allah who threw. Those who pledge allegiance with you are pledging allegiance to Allah, the hand of Allah is above their hands. 

I would like to call Dr. Ali Hurr Kamoonpuri to join me right here. I want him to either teach me or learn from me, lets do the islah.

Edited by Cool
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And how we view the duas of Imams? Were they praying to the ism Allah? It looks to me as ism is calling to the ism. 

Or were they calling to the wajood of the Wajib Al-Wujood? Subhan Allah!! It seems to me as ism is calling to the Wajood. 

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It is said that:

الاسم دليل على المسمى، وعلم على المسمى

(The name is evidence of the named, and knowledge of the named)

Ibn Taimiyyah struggled to get rid of this matter lol, let me share his statement:

لأن أسماء الله من كلامه، وكلام الله غير مخلوق، بل هو المتكلم به، وهو المسمى لنفسه بما فيه من الأسماء

(Because the names of God are from His words, and the words of God are not created. Rather, he is the one who speaks with them, and he is the one who names himself with the names that are in it)

So that means for them Holy Quran is not created thing. The stance of Ahlul Sunnah is mentioned below:

يعتقد أهل السنة والجماعة أن القرآن الكريم كلام الله غير مخلوق، فقد روي عن الإمام أحمد بن حنبل أنه قال: والقرآن كلام الله، ليس بمخلوق، فمن زعم أن القرآن مخلوق فهو جهمي كافر، ومن زعم أن القرآن كلام الله عز وجل ووقف ولم يقل مخلوق ولا غير مخلوق: فهو أخبث من الأول، ومن زعم أن ألفاظنا بالقرآن وتلاوتنا له مخلوقة والقرآن كلام الله فهو جهمي، ومن لم يكفر هؤلاء القوم كلهم فهو مثلهم

(Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah believe that the Noble Qur’an is the word of God and is not created, for it was narrated on the authority of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal that he said: The Qur’an is the word of God, not created, so whoever claims that the Qur’an is created is an unbeliever. Whoever claims that the Qur’an is the word of God Almighty and stops and does not say created or uncreated, then he is more wicked than the first. And whoever claims that our utterances of the Qur’an and our recitation of it are created and that the Qur’an is the word of God is a Jahmee, and whoever does not declare all of these people to be a disbeliever is like them.) 

So interestingly, if you see the ahadith of Imams with us, explaining this matter, you would see that we are more than the Kafir according to the clauses put forth by Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ومن زعم أن القرآن كلام الله عز وجل ووقف ولم يقل مخلوق ولا غير مخلوق: فهو أخبث من الأول) just because we limit ourselves to the statement that Quran is Kalam Allah. 

And if we believe that the words of God are created, then we are Kafir.. 

I am wondering if we ever get rid of these titles, Kafir Mushrik, Zindeeq, Rafidah etc.. lol

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Let me elaborate the problem why I am asking this question. Allah is the name of the One who owns it. So when we say "O Allah" we are calling Him "through" His name. That is not a "direct contact" with the very Wajood of "Wajib al Wujood". So is there anyway we can establish a "direct contact" with Him, without even needing the names?

When My servants ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about Me: I am truly near. I respond to one’s prayer when they call upon Me. So let them respond ˹with obedience˺ to Me and believe in Me, perhaps they will be guided ˹to the Right Way˺.

 

You be your own interpreter. 
 

- can you elaborate more on what you mean with the “ism” part of Allahs name?

I am lost with that 

 

17 minutes ago, Cool said:

(Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah believe that the Noble Qur’an is the word of God and is not created, for it was narrated on the authority of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal that he said: The Qur’an is the word of God, not created, so whoever claims that the Qur’an is created is an unbeliever. Whoever claims that the Qur’an is the word of God Almighty and stops and does not say created or uncreated, then he is more wicked than the first. And whoever claims that our utterances of the Qur’an and our recitation of it are created and that the Qur’an is the word of God is a Jahmee, and whoever does not declare all of these people to be a disbeliever is like them.)

They don’t have the authority to claim someone is a disbeliever over saying the word Created or Uncreated. 
the Quran is what it is, a holy book delivered to us from Allah. You are being literal and making things complicated for no reason. 
 

salam

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Argument of John of Damascus  (يوحنا الدمشقي):

 يوحنا الدمشقي الذي قال إذا كان القرآن غير مخلوق فهو أزلى وبالمثل فإن النبي عيسى أزلي لأنهُ كلمة الله وإن كان مخلوق فهو منفصل عن قدسية الله مثل باقى المخلوقات

It seems better to become Christian than to become a Sunni lol. 

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41 minutes ago, Cool said:

It is said that:

الاسم دليل على المسمى، وعلم على المسمى

(The name is evidence of the named, and knowledge of the named)

Ibn Taimiyyah struggled to get rid of this matter lol, let me share his statement:

لأن أسماء الله من كلامه، وكلام الله غير مخلوق، بل هو المتكلم به، وهو المسمى لنفسه بما فيه من الأسماء

(Because the names of God are from His words, and the words of God are not created. Rather, he is the one who speaks with them, and he is the one who names himself with the names that are in it)

So that means for them Holy Quran is not created thing. The stance of Ahlul Sunnah is mentioned below:

يعتقد أهل السنة والجماعة أن القرآن الكريم كلام الله غير مخلوق، فقد روي عن الإمام أحمد بن حنبل أنه قال: والقرآن كلام الله، ليس بمخلوق، فمن زعم أن القرآن مخلوق فهو جهمي كافر، ومن زعم أن القرآن كلام الله عز وجل ووقف ولم يقل مخلوق ولا غير مخلوق: فهو أخبث من الأول، ومن زعم أن ألفاظنا بالقرآن وتلاوتنا له مخلوقة والقرآن كلام الله فهو جهمي، ومن لم يكفر هؤلاء القوم كلهم فهو مثلهم

(Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah believe that the Noble Qur’an is the word of God and is not created, for it was narrated on the authority of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal that he said: The Qur’an is the word of God, not created, so whoever claims that the Qur’an is created is an unbeliever. Whoever claims that the Qur’an is the word of God Almighty and stops and does not say created or uncreated, then he is more wicked than the first. And whoever claims that our utterances of the Qur’an and our recitation of it are created and that the Qur’an is the word of God is a Jahmee, and whoever does not declare all of these people to be a disbeliever is like them.) 

So interestingly, if you see the ahadith of Imams with us, explaining this matter, you would see that we are more than the Kafir according to the clauses put forth by Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ومن زعم أن القرآن كلام الله عز وجل ووقف ولم يقل مخلوق ولا غير مخلوق: فهو أخبث من الأول) just because we limit ourselves to the statement that Quran is Kalam Allah. 

And if we believe that the words of God are created, then we are Kafir.. 

I am wondering if we ever get rid of these titles, Kafir Mushrik, Zindeeq, Rafidah etc.. lol

Very annoying how fallible human can judge other human and the rest follow with his judgment. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Guest said:

the Quran is what it is, a holy book delivered to us from Allah.

These are same people who believe that actions of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is eternal (or that He is acting eternaly) , that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) must have always creating and talking. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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23 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

can you elaborate more on what you mean with the “ism” part of Allahs name?

I am lost with that 

:hahaha:

Keep lost!!!! The Prophet & Imam in themselves, their very being, are the ism of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), nothing else. 

As it is said that:

الاسم دليل على المسمى، وعلم على المسمى

(The name is evidence of the named, and knowledge of the named)

Prophet & Imam, being the name of God, are His proof. 

28 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

They don’t have the authority to claim someone is a disbeliever over saying the word Created or Uncreated. 
the Quran is what it is, a holy book delivered to us from Allah. You are being literal and making things complicated for no reason. 

What has been shared was a fatwa of Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal. There are multiple sources of this fatwa including the book of ibn Taimiyyah. Should I quote the sources?

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Keep lost!!!! The Prophet & Imam in themselves, their very being, are the ism of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), nothing else. 

As it is said that:

الاسم دليل على المسمى، وعلم على المسمى

(The name is evidence of the named, and knowledge of the named)

Prophet & Imam, being the name of God, are His proof. 

I just want to make one clear thing about this. Imams (عليه السلام) using these names are only for demonstrating their status and state and also as you said His proof. For example Imam Ali (عليه السلام) calling himself "The First", means that he is the first male Muslim who accepted the Prophet Muhammad (saws) message, not God's name The First (Awwalu). For Imams (عليه السلام) the names are very different in meaning than God names that are referring to God as Absolute.

 

Edited by Abu Nur
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46 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

For Imams (عليه السلام) the names are very different in meaning than God names that are referring to God as Absolute.

Salam Brother, 

Yes there is a difference in meaning obviously when applied to any servant. But even in the absolute sense, the name remains name, the difference of ism & musamma will be there. Ism either in its absolute meaning, would be used to point to The Absolute One. And that ism in no way become the ذات. 

What I am arguing is that the "very being" of Imam is the ism of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and are therefore a proof of Him. Like Jesus mentioned in Quran as Kalimatullah, are His "words" could become Him in anyway? There would remain difference between His كلام or كلمة and His ذات. 

Or if there is another way to understand the words of famous sahih hadith:

نحن اسماء الله الحسني

وردت في الكافي بإسناده إلى معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله (ع) في قوله عز وجل : (ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها ) قال (ع) :[ نحن والله الأسماء الحسنى التي لا يقبل الله من العباد عملا إلا بمعرفتنا]
 

Edited by Cool
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15 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam Brother, 

Yes there is a difference in meaning obviously when applied to any servant. But even in the absolute sense, the name remains name, the difference of ism & musamma will be there. Ism either in its absolute meaning, would be used to point to The Absolute One. And that ism in no way become the ذات. 

What I am arguing is that the "very being" of Imam is the ism of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and are therefore a proof of Him. Like Jesus mentioned in Quran as Kalimatullah, are His "words" could become Him in anyway? There would remain difference between His كلام or كلمة and His ذات. 

 

Salaam Aleikum Brother, you are very right. May God bless you.

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@Cool

Hi There you asked for a non-shia to respond - so here I am a follower of Jesus the Messiah!

Reading through this thread I'm afraid I can't understand your problem.  Does God worry what 'name' or 'word' we use to address him when we pray?  Obviously we will not use a curse or a demeaning word or name.  My understanding of God is that he is longing for his creation to call to him.  He is ready and waiting to listen to our prayers, to enter into relationship with him.

Is God going to say "Go away!  I'm not listening to you - You didn't address me correctly!"  What kind of God is that?  It is not the God I know and love and who loves me with his infine loving kindness.

The One God hears and answers our prayers as we direct our thoughts towards him. 

The prophet Isaiah (Chapter 65:24) reports the very words of God: "Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear."

Jesus the Messiah in his discorse about prayer says (Matthew chapter 6:8)  "your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

I'm sorry if I have missed the point of your question!

Edited by Dave follower of The Way
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8 hours ago, Cool said:

Argument of John of Damascus

An interesting comment comparing the Qur'an with Jesus the Messiah as The Word of God

8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) must have always creating and talking. 

If God is a communicating and speaking God - If that is part of his character then he can not stop communicating or he would cease to be who he is.  There could never have been a time when communication or "The Word of God" was not intigral to God's very being.

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Like Jesus mentioned in Quran as Kalimatullah, are His "words" could become Him in anyway?

Kalimatullah are integral to God - it is clear in the Injil that when Jesus the Messiah is refered to as "The Word of God" we are seeing an explination of the integral nature of Jesus the Messiah and the One God, creator and sustaniner (by His Word) of the universe. The Trustworthy Injil John Chapter 1 says

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ..... 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

May God's words lighten our path.

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8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

These are same people who believe that actions of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is eternal (or that He is acting eternaly) , that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) must have always creating and talking. 

That’s fine, humans will be humans. 
where is the proof? 
 

we know Muhammad and prior messengers and prophets have came to spread Islam, and they were CHOSEN for that reason, and some were special enough to speak with Allah in different manners. 
 

we know Muhammad was the Final prophet.

critical thinking tells me that the Quran is the final word of Allah. 
 

? Your thoughts

8 hours ago, Cool said:

What has been shared was a fatwa of Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal. There are multiple sources of this fatwa including the book of ibn Taimiyyah. Should I quote the sources?

What you quote doesn’t matter? He isn’t a prophet. 
 

idk exactly what he said but let’s use common sense. 
 

you say what he said is wrong, I don’t know. Allah knows. With that said, IF it’s wrong, I agree. With that said, I still don’t care. He doesn’t represent 1.6 billion Muslims. 
 

and you are a fool for claiming people who say bad things represent people. 
 

you are very mentally immature. 
 

Lol. Allah will guide those who want to be guided. I know my words are making sense. You are just being slow…. Sorry to say. 
 

IF YOU stated anything that was accurate I would gladly agree but 0 makes sense, it only makes sense to you and people who think like you. In which those types of minds are highly depreciated according to allahs word. 

You are creating a religion. Allah is SINGULAR, there is no ISM or team of his. 
 

I could accept Imam Ali as the first Muslim. You act like it MATTERS

LITTLE DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS DO NOT MATTER TO ALLAH !!  
 

You are just so Lost

 

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35 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

and you are a fool for claiming people who say bad things represent people

And you are a fool who question a thing, then withdraw from it lol.

35 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

You are creating a religion. Allah is SINGULAR, there is no ISM or team of his. 

So stupid!!! How can one even talk to you.

There are at least two types of Asma. 1) Personal Name e.g., Allah, Al-Qadir, Al-Aleem

2) Names which mentions divine attributes. Al-Razzaq, Al-Rehman

There is much more which can be said, but this is going above your head.

So Salam!!

 

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46 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

In the beginning was the Word,

Hi Dave, 

Thanks for your input brother.

The theme of this thread is that name (اسم) and the Self (ذات) are different. Name cannot be the self. 

 

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That’s fine, humans will be humans. 
where is the proof?

The proof is logical following by what God have taught us about Himself. In this issue God says that He Is the First and Eternal, this itself tells that to be the first, It must be that He was Only Him alone without creation in existence and nothingness expect God. This itself tell that it is impossible that God have always created. Being Creator does not mean that He need to act as Creator (there is no need, but He wills whatever He wills with His Intention). Nor when He act first time to create the creations follows that He became a Creator (Astagfurullah).

Edited by Abu Nur
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Kalimatullah are integral to God - it is clear in the Injil that when Jesus the Messiah is refered to as "The Word of God" we are seeing an explination of the integral nature of Jesus the Messiah and the One God, creator and sustaniner (by His Word) of the universe. The Trustworthy Injil John Chapter 1 says

Kalimatullah in the manner of Jesus was that God Created Jesus directly by the Word BE! The same way with Adam. Your interpretation is not acceptable by Qur'an either, so yes you are here describing what Christians believe.

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If God is a communicating and speaking God - If that is part of his character then he can not stop communicating or he would cease to be who he is.  There could never have been a time when communication or "The Word of God" was not intigral to God's very being.

No, his action is based on His intention, If He intended not to speak, He does not cease to be Communicator, or The One Who Talk to His slave.

Edited by Abu Nur
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1 hour ago, Cool said:

Hi Dave, 

Thanks for your input brother.

The theme of this thread is that name (اسم) and the Self (ذات) are different. Name cannot be the self

Well you’re the one who spelt an Arabic word in English Lol. 
 

understood now. My mistake. 
 

Goodluck

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On 10/18/2021 at 4:52 PM, Cool said:

The theme of this thread is that name (اسم) and the Self (ذات) are different. Name cannot be the self. 

Sorry to be thick!  I saw the theme as "Asking from Allah" AKA "Prayer"

When God reveals his name ism isn't he telling us something about his self zat?

How can we know who we are praying to / asking from unless he reveals himself?  So God discloses his character (zat) by telling us his names (ism).

Islam talks about the "most beautiful names" of God and within the Hebrew Bible and the Injil there are hundreds of names which God has revealed.

I was thinking this morning about one of these names "El Shaddai" often translated into English as "God Almighty" and may have the conotation of the One who is self safficient and able to provide for his people.

What an amazing ism to hold in my mind as a talk with God knowing that his zat is to provide and protect with all his infinite might.

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah,  All-Merciful, The Gracious

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad and hasten their alleviation

The name is not the same as the named. The One who is named is the one who can be obeyed or disobeyed. Allah has power over all things. Muhammed (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) only obey Allah and Allah has created this life for them to walk trough and they do it with full obedience to Allah alone. Allah alone can create and Allah alone answers to prayers. Name is not the same as the named. Call  Allah with the most beautiful names and obey the messenger and those who have authority since they obey Allah completely. Only Allah answers the prayers. Only Allah creates and Guides. Allah, All-Hearing, All-Aware, Eternal.

Do Good and Forbid the Evil.

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah,  All-Merciful, The Gracious

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad and hasten their alleviation

One who worships the name has worshipped nothing. And who prays the name has prayed from the name and not from the named. Call Allah, do not pray names, but the named. Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) is name from Allahs name Alaa, The High. Ali is name, and not  the named. Muhammed is name, but not the named. One who prays the name, but not the named has committed shirk and left Islam. 

الله أكبر‎

الله اَلْغَفُورلرَّحِيمِ

 

أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا ٱللَّٰهُ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ ٱللَّٰهِ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ عَلِيًّا وَلِيُّ ٱللَّٰهِ

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah,  All-Merciful, The Gracious

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad and hasten their alleviation

 

الله أكبر‎

الله اَلْغَفُورلرَّحِيمِ

 

أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا ٱللَّٰهُ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ ٱللَّٰهِ وَأَشْهَدُ أَنَّ عَلِيًّا وَلِيُّ ٱللَّٰهِ

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2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

When God reveals his name ism isn't he telling us something about his self zat?

Hi Dave!!

Thanks for your response again. 

In fact, revealing His name has helped people to understand a very basic thing i.e., we do not worship the name, we worship the Self. 

Now regarding His names & what He has revealed of His names, we know that His are the most beautiful names. And we cannot number His names, His names are infinite like His Self is. 

So yes, we call Him (Self) "through" the most beautiful names. And this is exactly the point, we don't know anything about Him except His names & whatever He revealed to us. And the central idea is that we cannot know His Self as there is nothing like Him. We are incapable to know His Self. 

Now what I have pointed here is that the only thing we have to approach Him are His beautiful names. These names are not limited to the words composed of letters. His "names" are also in the form of human beings. So Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ali (عليه السلام), Jesus (عليه السلام) are all His names, His evidences. We don't worship names & evidences that is what I am repeatedly stating, so when someone with that point of view, call his name e.g., Ali (عليه السلام), He is not commiting shirk because the name is only used to address the Self. And we only worship the Self not the name.

Unless anyone corrupt his understanding and start worshiping the name rather than the self, then it would be a totally different case. 

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Islam talks about the "most beautiful names" of God and within the Hebrew Bible and the Injil there are hundreds of names which God has revealed.

I was thinking this morning about one of these names "El Shaddai" often translated into English as "God Almighty" and may have the conotation of the One who is self safficient and able to provide for his people.

Indeed, He is Almighty, Al-Qadeer, Al- Qaiyyum, Al-Haye. We know these names only, but we don't know a thing about His Self e.g., how He is All-Living? How He Is self sufficient? We cannot comprehend His Self this is our very limitation. All we can say is that He is even greater than being described. 

 

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On 10/18/2021 at 10:49 AM, Cool said:

Argument of John of Damascus  (يوحنا الدمشقي):

 يوحنا الدمشقي الذي قال إذا كان القرآن غير مخلوق فهو أزلى وبالمثل فإن النبي عيسى أزلي لأنهُ كلمة الله وإن كان مخلوق فهو منفصل عن قدسية الله مثل باقى المخلوقات

It seems better to become Christian than to become a Sunni lol. 

Our Ahlul Sunnah brothers understand that the name "Allah" is His personal name and is His Self as it includes or sums up in itself all the divine names & attributes. Hence they have coined a phrase "اسم الله ذات" (Name Allah Self). 

How can the name which consist of letters be the Self? If it is the case, one is able to make His idol (na'udobillah) by writing:

الله

And then start prostrating/worshiping to the word composed of letters above. We have a different point of view. We don't even worship the "name" Allah, we worship the named (i.e., Self) in any case. 

 

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The divine command is to call Him "through" His names and start every work with His name:

ب اسم الله 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Allah, Al-Rehman, Al-Raheem Al-Awwal, Al-Aakhir, Al-Zahir, Al-Batin, etc. are His names in words form. His names are also present in the form of Human Beings that's why we have hadith which says نحن اسماء الله الحسنة (we are Allah's beautiful names). 

Now it solely depends on ones ma'rifah of His names, "through" them we are commanded to call Him. Some of us declare the statement "ya Ali madad" shirk, just because the assumption is that Ali (عليه السلام) is something other than Allah's name. He, infact his whole being, is Allah's name. So those who chant this (ya Ali madad) must be calling to the "Owner of the ism" and are not worshiping the ism itself.

Having said that, I would again revert back to the practice of Imams, it is not good in any way to move ahead of them, nor stay behind. We have a whole sets of books mentioning how Imams have prayed, offer supplications, we should learn & practice only that what they have taught us, no more & no less. 

And with this, I am concluding this thread. 

Wassalam!! 

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54 minutes ago, Cool said:

because the name is only used to address the Self

But Allahs names aren’t Ali, Muhammad or Issa. 
 

christians believe the lords name and his “self” is one, together, but three. 
 

Allahs (self) is addressed only through his name(s)
 

And by your logic, if the name is only used to address the self, then using the name Ali, to address Allah is wrong because using the name Ali is addressing Ali. 
 

I just had to throw this out there because you just confused the world with this post. It makes 0 sense to address anyone by someone else’s name. 
 

illogical. 

salam

59 minutes ago, Cool said:

He is not commiting shirk because the name is only used to address the Self. And we only worship the Self not the name

If you worship the Self, then address that self by what he is labeled. You are mislabeling him saying any prophet or Imam could mean allahs (self). 
 

and you said it yourself, you worship the self not the name. 
and if a name is used to address the Self then you are lying to yourself because if you want to address the Self You could easily use one of his many names. But you choose to believe he has more names, used names used for humans……..

I hope you see my view

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah,  All-Merciful, The Gracious

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad and hasten their alleviation

الله أكبر‎

Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) has no knowledge of when the Qyamat will start nor Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) collect the Qyamat, nor hasten it, nor delay it. Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) can not create anything, nor can he answer to sublications that are totally in the power of Allah when it comes to Forgiving and granting intersession in the day of Judgement. This is only in the Power of Allah, subhanu wa Taala. Muhammed (SAAS) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are the ones who will never perish, they are not the ones that answer to calls. They know Allah and obey Allah, and Allah Guides them. If You call Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) you openly call someone other than Allah. If You call the creator of Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام), then you call the named, not the name. If you call Gracious, and think it is a Talibs Mother then you have worshipped the name and not the named, but If you call Gracious the one who created men and women and made children to have mothers then you have called the named.

In case you call Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) as a name.

You have misunderstood the Thouheed and committed major sin. 

May Allah clear your confusion.

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4 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

But Allahs names aren’t Ali, Muhammad or Issa. 
 

christians believe the lords name and his “self” is one, together, but three. 
 

Allahs (self) is addressed only through his name(s)
 

And by your logic, if the name is only used to address the self, then using the name Ali, to address Allah is wrong because using the name Ali is addressing Ali. 
 

I just had to throw this out there because you just confused the world with this post. It makes 0 sense to address anyone by someone else’s name. 
 

illogical. 

salam

If you worship the Self, then address that self by what he is labeled. You are mislabeling him saying any prophet or Imam could mean allahs (self). 
 

and you said it yourself, you worship the self not the name. 
and if a name is used to address the Self then you are lying to yourself because if you want to address the Self You could easily use one of his many names. But you choose to believe he has more names, used names used for humans……..

I hope you see my view

Salam,

When  we make our salah and face the qibla (kaabah), make sujud toward it and if you turn away from Kaabah while making salah, your salah will not be accepted.

What it is the cubic structure?  It is the unseen part...that is call Baitullah.  Can you see how Allah'(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attaches Himself to that house.

Now, let see the word "Rasulullah" and Ali "Waliyullah".

Can you see how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attaches Himself to them. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Name is attached to them.

If you pray toward Kaabah, be inside the Baitullah while attaching yourself to Rasulullah and Waliyullah (while in Baitullah)..it will lead you DIRECTLY to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes Baitullah, Rasulullah and Waliyullah alive spiritually so we can be with them to address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

Can we see Kalamullah.. the Quran.  So much in that Quran that reading it bring us to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Because Quran consists Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Can you see the Rasulullah and Waliyullah and what in them.  It is Nuur of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that make all creation alive.  Even the Kalamullah (Quran), in total, is in Rasulullah and Waliyullah.

The Ism Aa'zam are created as mean for the Ahlulbayt to address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They shared some portion of it to us.  The Ism Aa'zam is embedded in them.  We will never known the full extend of it and only reserved for Ahlulbayt(عليه السلام).

If we call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we should forget about the self, and just remember that we are Abdullah....as if the Rasulullah is addressing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...because Rasulullah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the Real Abdullah.  That is his Title.  We should address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the way Ahlulbayt address Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

The only way we can call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the right way is to be with Ahlulbayt, the self disappeared, and only Abdullah exist and then the real inner self (the Abdullah) will call Ya Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will answer that call.

If we can't do that then we ask our Wali to call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on our behalf.  Our Wali are with us, and we say salam to them at the end of our Salah that we make everyday.

Wassalam 

Wallahualam.

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7 hours ago, Abdul Rahim al-Hasan said:

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah,  All-Merciful, The Gracious

ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad and hasten their alleviation

الله أكبر‎

Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) has no knowledge of when the Qyamat will start nor Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) collect the Qyamat, nor hasten it, nor delay it. Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) can not create anything, nor can he answer to sublications that are totally in the power of Allah when it comes to Forgiving and granting intersession in the day of Judgement. This is only in the Power of Allah, subhanu wa Taala. Muhammed (SAAS) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are the ones who will never perish, they are not the ones that answer to calls. They know Allah and obey Allah, and Allah Guides them. If You call Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) you openly call someone other than Allah. If You call the creator of Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام), then you call the named, not the name. If you call Gracious, and think it is a Talibs Mother then you have worshipped the name and not the named, but If you call Gracious the one who created men and women and made children to have mothers then you have called the named.

In case you call Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) as a name.

You have misunderstood the Thouheed and committed major sin. 

May Allah clear your confusion.

Salamualaikum, 

Ali (عليه السلام) is a Slave of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  As a slave, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will inform him on whatever Ali (عليه السلام) need to know.  

Whatever Ali (عليه السلام) does are Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That is the position of Pure Slave. Ali (عليه السلام) has no personal wills. Everything about Ali(عليه السلام) relates back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That is the position of Pure Slave.

Whatever Ali (عليه السلام) hear is whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) want to hear.  

If Ali(عليه السلام) deviates, then Ali is no longer Pure.

Because of that Pure-ness, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes Ali (عليه السلام) as Waliyullah.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to be with us from the beginning to the end as our Wali that we can be with and call upon so we can be helped and guided in all matters (religious,  knowledge, technology, spiritual...) while in this world and in hereafter.

If Ahlulbayt has no role in this world (physical and spiritual), then why would they be created.

Why not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly take the souls of humans during death?  Well, the Angels of Death are tasked to that roles.

We should know the full extend of the Roles of Prophets and Imams, and why they are spiritually alive as our Wali.

If we are blinded and not knowing their Roles, then at least don't ignore or belittle their Roles.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) constantly give blessings to them because of their Roles...(33:56).  We have to send Blessings to them by accepting their Roles.

And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes them Wali and our Ulir Amr...don't ignore it.  Qur'an made it clear on this issue.

Wassalam 

Wallahualam.

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7 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

by your logic, if the name is only used to address the self, then using the name Ali, to address Allah is wrong because using the name Ali is addressing Ali. 

So Allah is Ali, infact Al-Ali Al-Azeem. 

Jesus was Kalimatullah, so by your logic Jesus cannot be the "word" of Allah, he cannot be the "Ruhullah". For you it is surprising, how can a human be a divine word!!!

His words & His Self are not one either.

7 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

you worship the Self, then address that self by what he is labeled. You are mislabeling him saying any prophet or Imam could mean allahs (self). 

As stupid as you are throughout this discussions!!

Please quote me where I have said Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Imam (عليه السلام) as Allah's Self.

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8 hours ago, Abdul Rahim al-Hasan said:

 call Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) you openly call someone other than Allah. If You call the creator of Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام), then you call the named, not the name. If you call Gracious, and think it is a Talibs Mother then you have worshipped the name and not the named, but If you call Gracious the one who created men and women and made children to have mothers then you have called the named.

In case you call Ali Ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) as a name.

You have misunderstood the Thouheed and committed major sin. 

May Allah clear your confusion.

Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام), in his very being, is nothing but "ism e ilahi". Imams are "asma Allah ul husna" according to ahadith books. 

And I do believe that these purified servants are the purified divine names. Their very beings are nothing but the manifestations of divine names. In fact every thing in itself, is nothing but the manifestation of divine names. The manifestation of divine names in Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ali (عليه السلام), reached to its peak.

And how have I called Ali ibn Abi Talib's (عليه السلام) self while for me he is nothing but among the names of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Self? Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) is Nafs Allah, Lisan Allah, Junb Allah etc. And I only know that he is not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , he is not the Self but the name.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Khaliq and He is Ahsan ul Khaliqeen too. Are there other khaliq beside Him? No

So who are the khaliqeen of which Allah is Ahsan?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Raziq and He is Khayr ur Raziqeen too. Are there any other raziq beside Him? No

So who are the raziqeen of which Allah is Khayr?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al-Rahman Al-Raheem and He is Khayr ur Rahimeen too. Are there any other rehman or raheem beside Him? No

So who are the rahimeen of which Allah is Khayr?

Please try to understand the manifestations of divine names. And be not the one who at one place, says something and on other place become totally opposite to what was said earlier. 

11 hours ago, Abdul Rahim al-Hasan said:

The name is not the same as the named.

 

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