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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why did the High Priest tear his garment?

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  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, tek91 said:

Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David would be two different individuals appearing together?

Jews don't believe that

Sure they do. The simplest way to find out is asking a Jew, not a Christian. Go there http://judaismsanswer.com/yosef.htm

8 hours ago, tek91 said:

No jew believes the references in the OT refer to 2 different individuals.

Yes. And that is because, as explained, ben Yoseph is a conditional prophecy. If Jews repent he will not appear. Only ben David will.

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

He is not a christian he's a Roman historian he would not lie to promote a belief by christians

He is not promoting anything. He is mocking Christian beliefs and Iesous' crucifixion. Paul admits it when he says that "but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

Read the account the veil was not just some curtain. The Veil was in the temple and seperated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. 

It was a curtain and nothing else. A piece of fabric tears in 2 from an earthquake?

6 hours ago, tek91 said:

Matthew says that when the Earthquake occured that same veil was rent in two from top to bottom

Sure. He also says zombies started walking the streets of Jerusalem. How is that related to the earthquake?

6 hours ago, tek91 said:

the sun was darkened

The only recorded eclipse closest to Jesus' location and time of death occured in the year 29 in the Persian Gulf which doesnt fit the Jesus chronology and would have been of negligible impact in Jerusalem, 100s of miles away.

 

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

There must have been historians who recorded this event, where are they?

Irrelevant argument again. Historians did not record every event in history. The reason this "absence of evidence doesnt equate to evidence of absence" cannot apply to the NT tale is that we do have seismic records of the period, none of which confirming the NT.

Which astronomical records do we have by Arabian historians contemporaries of the prophet Muhammad?

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. Romans contemporaries of Jesus recorded the region's seismic activities. Nothing corroborates the NT tale.

I showed you the account of Thallus, which report a darkness and an Earthquake.

I also showed that Luke and Mark collaborate Matthew by showing the temple veil was thorn in half and that there was a darkness on the Earth.

You admitted that there was NO outside the quran evidence of Mohammad splitting the moon in half.

The Earthquake in the NT was witnessed and felt around the area of Judea and Jerusalem meanwhile the Moon being split would have been something everyone would have witnessed and felt World wide, yet there are NO records of it outside of the quran.

Edited by tek91
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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. Romans contemporaries of Jesus recorded the region's seismic activities. Nothing corroborates the NT tale.

Quote the book in question

The earth is flat? According to the bible it is, since we read it has "corners", "boundaries" or "ends" Job38:13,Ps74:17 just like the heaven above it has four corners Zech2:10, and is established upon water Ps24:2, held afloat by pillars. 

That may be the reason for the above assumption that in nighttime, the whole world is in darkness.

 

Why do you keep changing the conversation and adding things? why don't you deal with the subject first?

Here this answers your question

https://www.gotquestions.org/circle-of-the-earth.html

The reference to the “circle of the earth” in Isaiah 40:22 is the source of much speculation. Some see this phrase as evidence that God revealed to ancient Israel something of the physical layout of the universe long before anyone had discovered that the earth was round. Later, as scientific discoveries were made, the Bible was shown to be incredibly correct, recording truth that only God could have known. According to this view, the Scripture is demonstrated to have a divine origin by revealing “scientific secrets” before they were commonly known.

The Bible speaks of the rising and setting of the sun (as do we), but it is simply the language of appearance and not intended to communicate scientific accuracy (see Psalm 113:3.) The Bible also speaks of the “four corners of the earth,” yet no one thinks that the Bible is teaching that the earth is square (see Isaiah 11:12). Proverbs 30:4 speaks of the “ends of the earth,” an expression we still use today to refer to the remotest extremes. The problem with the “scientific secrets” approach is that it reads scientific precision into certain passages that seem to fit our modern scientific concepts while ascribing phenomenological language (language of appearance) or metaphor to those passages that do not. To be consistent, it would seem that all such passages should either be interpreted literally or metaphorically. If they are all interpreted literally, then there would be far more scientific inaccuracies than accuracies or “scientific secrets.” If they are all interpreted metaphorically or phenomenologically, then each of the passages would still make sense in its original context. Isaiah 40:22, with its reference to the “circle of the earth,” is just one example.

 

 

“And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out).”71:19

“He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)....”Al-Qur’an 20:53

Edited by tek91
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The Yeshus of the Babylonian talmud who lived at different times that Iesous and who inspired the NT tale.

They were sorcerers and healers.

So was Iesous crucified on the eve of passover or on passover itself?

 

Show me where I can find these sorcerers and healers in the Talmud named Yeshu as well?  

Edited by tek91
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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

That is not the point. Once more:

How is rebellion against the pagan oppressor a Jewish transgression relevant to Jewish courts? You admot yourself ot is irrelevant to Jewish law.

If that is the case, Why did they not directly hand him to Pilate with that accusation and instead went on breaking every possible halakha ruling to set up their irrelevant Sanhedrin?

Please understand what is taught in the NT

Rebellion wasn't the accusations against Yeshua in the Sanhedrin trial it was Blasphemy which is a religious offence. Yeshua claimed to be God's Son and also showed that he is the same "Son of Man" in the clouds from the book of Daniel. The Sanhedrin then accused him of BLASPHEMY and sentenced him to death. Since they could not act on a death sentence they took him to Pontius Pilate and the Romans and accused him of breaking their Jewish Law(malefactor) (Pilate did not care about this much) later the Jews accused him before Pilate of claiming to be Christ a King and being a threat of starting a Rebellion against Rome.

Pontius Pilate then gave the Jews a decision let go of Barabbas (a murderer) or Yeshua the jews cried out to release Barabbas and have Yeshua crucified. 

What is so difficult about this that you can not understand?

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. Why then the need for the irrelevant Sanhedrin?

The trial of Yeshua in the Sanhedrin is to find a REASON for THE JEWS to put Yeshua to death and they did BLASPHEMY.

SInce they CANNOT HAVE AN EXECUTION they went to the Romans to manipulate THEM to have Yeshua killed.

This is not difficult to understand!!

I am shocked how you still cannot understand this

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Was this "reason" they found relevant to Roman courts?

The Blasphemy was the reason the JEWS found Yeshua worthy of DEATH

Rebellion was the reason they used to manipulate Pontius Pilate to order the EXECUTION since the JEWS had no power to EXECUTE

get it :furious:

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. Because one needs to resort to "make believe" through out of context cut and paste, as well as mistranslations.

Nothing about Iesous in Isaiah 53.

It's a lengthy subject basically Isaiah 53 and Daniel mentions that the anointed one Messiah would be cut off for sin of others before the destruction of the 2nd temple. 

Daniel speaks of the anointed one would put an end to sin, atone iniquity, bring in everlasting righteousness and then it says Messiah will be CUT OFF, but not for HIMSELF, then it says that the people of the prince which is to come shall destroy the city and the temple.

This was prophesied in the 70 weeks of years meaning that ALL THIS HAD TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE SECOND TEMPLE is destroyed which happened in 70 AD

This is only Daniel don't let me get started in Isaiah 53 my friend :brucelee:

Edited by tek91
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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Because it lists them as criteria by which an individual is to be identified. Scripture isnt required to state whether that individual gets 3 or 10 chances at it through successive deaths and resurrections until he checks all the boxes. Onus is upon Christians, who needed to restrospectively paint the failure of their messiah as purposeful, to show where does it say the messiah must die, resurrect then return to accomplish his task.

Obviously, and as no Christian disagrees, none of the HB messianic criteria ever occured anywhere near Jesus' era, and in fact the least that can be said is that the 1st century, its overall state of upheaval, was the antithesis of what the messianic era is supposed to be. That is why Paul was met with fierce resistence when he preached to Jews and instead turned to the pagans who had no clue of what the Hebrew bible taught. He could now distort and reinterpret every aspect of it, as well as Jesus' teachings so as to fit the paradigms of the pagans he was preaching to.

No where in the torah or tanach says that messiah would come in one turn.

It talks that he would first come to make an end to sins, make reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness ALL BEFORE THE DESTRUCTION OF THE SECOND TEMPLE.

You all missed it.

In the End of days Yeshua the LORD will come as a LION and rule over the Earth for 1000 years but first he had to come and be God's Lamb.

Why are you even referring Paul I hardly even used Paul in any of my debates lol

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure they do. The simplest way to find out is asking a Jew, not a Christian. Go there http://judaismsanswer.com/yosef.htm

No Jew believes two messiahs will come in the end of days

There are Judaism and Messianic Jews

Judaism believe 1 messiah will fulfill ALL prophecies by himself

Messianic Jews believe Messiah fulfilled the suffering servant for sin prophecies and will fulfill the rest when he comes back.

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Yes. And that is because, as explained, ben Yoseph is a conditional prophecy. If Jews repent he will not appear. Only ben David will

Yea that's what some Judaism believe.

They believe if we are worthy Messiah will come in the clouds, but if unworthy, he will come riding in a donkey.

Messianic Jews believe the prophecies have been fulfilled and the rest will be fulfilled, he first came in a donkey and will come in the clouds.

I showed you how Yeshua himself said that you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

Referencing the vision Daniel saw in the night of the Son of Man in the clouds.

Edited by tek91
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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

He is not promoting anything. He is mocking Christian beliefs and Iesous' crucifixion. Paul admits it when he says that "but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles"

He's a Roman historian and a governor his job is not to mock but report.

Paul is saying that the crucifixion that they preach is hard to understand to many Jews and sounds like foolishness to gentiles.

He is not saying that this dude in the future named Tacticus would make jokes about a crucifixion. :confused:

Read it it was not a joke but a statement about the Christians who Nero blamed for the fire. Tacticus was telling their history and showing how their leader (Yeshua) was KILLED by Pontius Pilate. There is no hint of a joke or sarcasm.

inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, 

You really need to stop with denials and your silly way of debating

It's obvious Tacticus reported that Yeshua was killed by Pontius Pilate.

All Romans knew that no one can survive a full CRUCIFIXION it's impossible.

And NO ONE EVER believed he did some houdini act and pushed someone else to the cross and ran LOL that is just so silly.

Edited by tek91
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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. He also says zombies started walking the streets of Jerusalem. How is that related to the earthquake?

You watch too many Walking Dead show. There was no Zombies. The bible says that the bodies of the SAINTS started walking the streets of Jerusalem this is because of what Yeshua did when he became atonement for sin. The saints can go to heaven and so can we by faith in Yeshua and his blood, the blood shed for Remission of sins. 

If you don't receive God's gift and keep the lie that he never died, you will find yourself burning forever.
Mohammad nor your quran will save you and you will not be able to say no one ever WARNED YOU.

Edited by tek91
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12 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Irrelevant argument again. Historians did not record every event in history. The reason this "absence of evidence doesnt equate to evidence of absence" cannot apply to the NT tale is that we do have seismic records of the period, none of which confirming the NT.

Which astronomical records do we have by Arabian historians contemporaries of the prophet Muhammad?

I said the same thing about records in the bible and you said it's fable because historians never recorded it. now you show your hypocrisy.

The difference is the Earthquake only happened in Israel, meanwhile Mohammad breaking the moon in half would have been felt and seen by EVERYONE and would have been reported by NASA.

Where is the report by NASA that 1500 years ago the moon split in half. Where are outside quran sources ? Like you said no where it was just a made up myth the moon splitting never happened.

In 2010, NASA Lunar Science Institute (NLSI) staff scientist Brad Bailey said, "No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past." The narrative was used by some later Muslims to convince others of the prophethood of Muhammad.

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Quote

2. Al-Maseeh (The Messiah)

The second most common appellation of Jesus in the Quran is ‘Al-Maseeh’. Prophet Jesus is eleven times referred to as al-Maseeh in the holy Quran. Commentators of the Quran and Muslim lexicographers have given various etymological explanations of the word ‘Al-Maseeh’. Some suggested that the name is given for Jesus when he was travelling in the earth as he was a mobile preacher.

Others say that Jesus was the Messiah because he healed the ill by touching their bodies. With all respect to these explanations, I believe none of them are reflecting on the purpose of the usage of the term ‘Al-Maseeh’ in the Quran. The title of ‘The Messiah’ is very important to the Jews and the Christians.

We need to bear in mind that the term al-Maseeh is the Arabic form of the Hebrew word m îa (Mashiach). The Greek equivalent is Christ. Thus, the etymology of the term must be sought in its original language, i.e. Hebrew not Arabic. ‘Al-Maseeh’ in Hebrew means ‘Anointed one’. In the Jewish tradition, the term was a dignified title. Al-Maseeh was used for the ceremonial induction into leadership. Three types of leaders were anointed:

1) Prophets; representing God among people as in the case of Abelmeholah to be the prophet in place of Eliha. (1 King 19:15-17)

2) Priests; representing the people before God through sacrifices and prayers. (Ex. 28:40-41)

3) Kings; to defend and rule over the people on God’s behalf. (1 King 19:15)

In general, the anointing meant that someone was authorized to serve God in a position of honour and responsibility. Although many people in the Old Testament were called Messiah, there was only one referred to as ‘The Messiah’, who’s coming. The Israelites were both hoping for and expecting as “The Deliverer" of the Jewish people”. (Daniel 9:25)

The term ‘Al’ in Arabic is a definite article like ‘The’‘Al-Maseeh’ therefore is equivalent to ‘The Messiah, the Anointed one’ as used in the Hebrew language. It seems when Almighty Allah states:

“Indeed, the Messiah; Jesus son of Mary, was a Messenger of Allah” (4:171)

He thus refers to this belief of the Messiah that the Jewish people were expecting, confirming that this was, indeed, Jesus son of Mary; The Messenger of God.

In short, both the Jews and the Christians exceeded the limits with regards to Christ. The Jews went astray by denying Jesus as ‘The promised Messiah and the Prophet of God’, and the Christians of later centuries also erred in misinterpreting Jesus as the Messiah who forgives their sin. It is regarding this explanation that Almighty Allah states:

“O people of the Book (Jews and the Christians) do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah; Jesus son of Mary, was a Messenger of Allah.” (4:171)

https://www.al-islam.org/ancient-prophets-modern-world-true-story-jesus-p-mansour-leghaei/jesus-messenger-allah

https://www.al-islam.org/person/prophet-jesus

 

11 hours ago, tek91 said:

They believe if we are worthy Messiah will come in the clouds, but if unworthy, he will come riding in a donkey.

 

 

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12 hours ago, tek91 said:

The problem with the “scientific secrets” approach is that it reads scientific precision into certain passages that seem to fit our modern scientific concepts while ascribing phenomenological language (language of appearance) or metaphor to those passages that do not.

Hi it clearly show that you have affected too much with evangelist anti Islamic propaganda & their wrong & biased translation of zionist evangelist from Quran which likewise you we can talk about metaphor meaning in Quran but you are trying to deny it due to your biased viewpoint.

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On 10/24/2021 at 6:39 PM, tek91 said:

No Jew believes two messiahs will come in the end of days

There are Judaism and Messianic Jews

Judaism believe 1 messiah will fulfill ALL prophecies by himself

Messianic Jews believe Messiah fulfilled the suffering servant for sin prophecies and will fulfill the rest when he comes back.

Who are those two messiahs?  Prophet Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam al Mahdi (عليه السلام).

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