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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Site islamqa.com says asking shifa is Shirk!!!

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  • Advanced Member
On 10/12/2021 at 10:24 PM, Guest Guest said:

Yes it is. If you believe Hussain has the power to remove the magic or whatever it is in your case, then yes it is shirk.

Even your going to doctor for taking medical assistance is shirk, if you believe that the doctor has the power to heal you. 

It is not shirk in anyway if you believe that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has the power to heal you and He may make this doctor or his given medicine a wasilah for granting you the shifa. 

و اذا مرضت فهو يشفين

See, you cannot get rid of wasilah.

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5 hours ago, Cool said:

Even your going to doctor for taking medical assistance is shirk, if you believe that the doctor has the power to heal you. 

It is not shirk in anyway if you believe that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has the power to heal you and He may make this doctor or his given medicine a wasilah for granting you the shifa. 

و اذا مرضت فهو يشفين

See, you cannot get rid of wasilah.

How will hussain heal you? A doctor can give you medicine?

 

by your logic

you are asking Allah to heal you, by asking hussain to ask Allah. 

so you are associating a partner with Allah. 

——

by asking Allah directly, and asking a doctor separately, the doctor can grab a medicine out the cabinet for you. By allahs will….

 

please stop this nonsense. Let’s argue the facts. Grab a verse or hadith one by one and we can dispute. Not talk out of faith only, but true logic and facts. Even your Shia hadith I am willing to accept if they correlate with the Quran. 
 

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5 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

A doctor can give you medicine?

Neither the doctor nor his given medicine has the power to heal. The power lies with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as stated by Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in Quran:

و اذا مرضث فهو يشفين

26:80) and when I fall ill, is the One who restores me to health,

5 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

How will hussain heal you?

Like how Quran heals me!!!

وَنُنَزِّلُ مِنَ الْقُرْآنِ مَا هُوَ شِفَاء وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلاَ يَزِيدُ الظَّالِمِينَ إَلاَّ خَسَارًا

17:82) And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust.

There is shifa from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Thikr ( ذكر) and the Ahl al-thikr (اهل الذكر). 

And you are not going to understand this lol. 

5 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

by your logic

you are asking Allah to heal you, by asking hussain to ask Allah. 

so you are associating a partner with Allah. 

So the brothers of Prophet Yousuf (عليه السلام) committed shirk when they ask their father who also was a Prophet, to ask for them forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?  They made their father, a partner of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and their father happily accepted their wrong doing and assured them that he will ask forgiveness for them from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

You are too low in your understanding, so I am leaving you right there. 

5 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

please stop this nonsense. Let’s argue the facts

You are telling me to stop presenting the facts. So I am no longer willing to engage with you. 

Wassalam!!

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

Neither the doctor nor his given medicine has the power to heal. The power lies with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as stated by Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in Quran:

و اذا مرضث فهو يشفين

26:80) and when I fall ill, is the One who restores me to health,

Like how Quran heals me!!!

وَنُنَزِّلُ مِنَ الْقُرْآنِ مَا هُوَ شِفَاء وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلاَ يَزِيدُ الظَّالِمِينَ إَلاَّ خَسَارًا

17:82) And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust.

There is shifa from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Thikr ( ذكر) and the Ahl al-thikr (اهل الذكر). 

And you are not going to understand this lol. 

So the brothers of Prophet Yousuf (عليه السلام) committed shirk when they ask their father who also was a Prophet, to ask for them forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?  They made their father, a partner of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and their father happily accepted their wrong doing and assured them that he will ask forgiveness for them from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

You are too low in your understanding, so I am leaving you right there. 

You are telling me to stop presenting the facts. So I am no longer willing to engage with you. 

Wassalam!!

Honestly you’re not providing any facts. 
you are stating a verse then stating an opinion on it? We can come up with one million opinions. 
 

17:82) And We reveal of the Quran that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust.

There is shifa from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Thikr ( ذكر) and the Ahl al-thikr (ا

 

yes shifa is from Allah, but you include (Ahl) in your interpretation which throws me off. 
 

the verse talks nothing about ahl al thikr here. 
 

and that’s what you keep doing with your facts stating a quote or verse than adding on so many things to it. Based on your own faith. I wouldn’t do that. I’d describe ONLY the verse and the logic that comes with it. 
 

so your example, which yes is a fact, yousefs brothers asked their father forgiveness from Allah. 
 

here is the same example  

I used to give my mom a hard time. I would say mom I’m sorry, please forgive me. She would say I forgive you I just hope Allah does. I would tell her please ask Allah to forgive me. True story. 
 

I am not commuting shirk nor is yousefs brothers. 
 

The difference is your claiming you could talk to a dead human being who is not divine, and he could (under ground waiting for day of judgement like all of us) could speak to Allah aNd ask fir your forgiveness. When allahs permits you to ask him directly you still choose to go thru a third party? Which I don’t under stand why. 
 

you are trying to reach AllaH

allah says call on to him 

you say call on to someone else, for i don’t know what reason

-

why should I listen to you, over the s who gave us PERMISSION and the honor to just reach out directly ?

could you answer that for me

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22 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

There is shifa from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Thikr ( ذكر) and the Ahl al-thikr (ا

 

yes shifa is from Allah, but you include (Ahl) in your interpretation which throws me off. 

You know, out of ignorance, you are throwing at me false allegations. Ahl al-thikr are the bearers of divine covenant and here Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned them:

لَا يَمْلِكُونَ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّخَذَ عِنْدَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا {87}

[Shakir 19:87] They shall not control intercession, save he who has made a covenant with the Beneficent Allah.

22 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

difference is your claiming you could talk to a dead human being who is not divine, and he could (under ground waiting for day of judgement like all of us) speak to Allah aNd ask fir your forgiveness

Again, while it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who prohibit you to neither call them nor think them as dead, you are continue to do so. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has guaranteed their lives and have informed us that thay are with Him and taking their sustenance. So they are not dead at least. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has assigned them special jobs for instance He made the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) witness over His choosen ones "Ummatan Wasatan (2:143, 22:78). Do you think the witness made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is blind & deaf na'udobillah, who cannot see nor hear, who would accept such a person as witness? 

It appears that you are in deep trouble. 

22 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

you say call on to someone else, for i don’t know what reason

I never said that you should not call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is you who are questioning and asserting that there is no شفيع except Allah, not even the ones whom He has approved. It is you who are asserting that calling for intersession someones other than Allah s w.t is shirk. 

I am simply rejecting such claims and presenting before you the verses of Quran as proof against your arguments. 

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23 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

why should I listen to you, over the s who gave us PERMISSION and the honor to just reach out directly ?

You should listen to Quran before claiming any thing about the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

You should call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, spend in His way directly for seeking His nearness, that's good. But see the following verse, what would happen to your spending if you did the fisq:

قُلْ أَنْفِقُوا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا لَنْ يُتَقَبَّلَ مِنْكُمْ ۖ إِنَّكُمْ كُنْتُمْ قَوْمًا فَاسِقِينَ {53}

[Shakir 9:53] Say: Spend willingly or unwillingly, it shall not be accepted from you; surely you are a transgressing people.

In such cases, one is in dire need of asking forgiveness directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and call for intercession the ones whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted the right. The.closed companions realized this and when they wronged themselves, they do went to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as mentioned in Quran. 

Similar is the case of nearly all acts of worship. And that is going on since the beginning, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never accepted the sacrifice of one of Adam's a s son and accepted the sacrifice of one, so the one whose sacrifice not accepted, has killed the other (mentioned in 5:27).

Then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has turned down the witnesses of Munafiqeen who claimed to believe that there is no god but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is His messenger, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed this verse and mentioned them as liars:

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ

So if nifaq touch someone's heart, how should he purify his heart from a sincere repentance? He would be in dire need of asking Allah's forgiveness directly as well as a support of a شافع who intercede for him and ask forgiveness for him before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

I think I have presented enough reasoning and I am ending my comment here. If, for you, your Prophet & Imams are dead, then keep asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as He is the only شفيع for you. But don't try to ridicule the ones who calls to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams along with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى),  whenever they realize that they have done something like fisq or nifaq etc. and while asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, they go to the divine doors which are like باب حطه, for them for requesting them to pray for their forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wassalam!!

Edited by Cool
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40 minutes ago, Cool said:

You should listen to Quran before claiming any thing about the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

You should call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, spend in His way directly for seeking His nearness, that's good. But see the following verse, what would happen to your spending if you did the fisq:

قُلْ أَنْفِقُوا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا لَنْ يُتَقَبَّلَ مِنْكُمْ ۖ إِنَّكُمْ كُنْتُمْ قَوْمًا فَاسِقِينَ {53}

[Shakir 9:53] Say: Spend willingly or unwillingly, it shall not be accepted from you; surely you are a transgressing people.

In such cases, one is in dire need of asking forgiveness directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and call for intercession the ones whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted the right. The.closed companions realized this and when they wronged themselves, they do went to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as mentioned in Quran. 

Similar is the case of nearly all acts of worship. And that is going on since the beginning, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never accepted the sacrifice of one of Adam's a s son and accepted the sacrifice of one, so the one whose sacrifice not accepted, has killed the other (mentioned in 5:27).

Then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has turned down the witnesses of Munafiqeen who claimed to believe that there is no god but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is His messenger, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed this verse and mentioned them as liars:

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ

So if nifaq touch someone's heart, how should he purify his heart from a sincere repentance? He would be in dire need of asking Allah's forgiveness directly as well as a support of a شافع who intercede for him and ask forgiveness for him before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

I think I have presented enough reasoning and I am ending my comment here. If, for you, your Prophet & Imams are dead, then keep asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as He is the only شفيع for you. But don't try to ridicule the ones who calls to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams along with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى),  whenever they realize that they have done something like fisq or nifaq etc. and while asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, they go to the divine doors which are like باب حطه, for them for requesting them to pray for their forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wassalam!!

Listen brother I will end with one last thing, I have a question for you  

 

A person lost in a lost part of the world with no access to the internet, if he found the Quran and has NO human beings around him till he dies, will he be able to make it to jannah and be a good Muslim? Even if he has 0 access to hadith. Even if he never mentions Imam Ali Hussain Or Hassan. 
 

You can answer Yes or No. if you want to explain with your No then please do so. 
 

if you answer Yes, then tell me what’s that point with all this teaching you are trying to inform me about, or why I need it in my life? 
—-

 

it seems everyone I ask a Shia what they do that I need to implement into my life or I will not make it to heaven I lose them. And please don’t so if you follow the prophet then you have to follow the ahlul Bayt. I believe I already follow the imams the correct way. 

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On 10/14/2021 at 6:54 PM, Guest Guest said:

by your logic

you are asking Allah to heal you, by asking hussain to ask Allah. 

so you are associating a partner with Allah. 

On 10/15/2021 at 1:08 AM, Cool said:

So the brothers of Prophet Yousuf (عليه السلام) committed shirk when they ask their father who also was a Prophet, to ask for them forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

On 10/15/2021 at 2:13 AM, Guest Guest said:

so your example, which yes is a fact, yousefs brothers asked their father forgiveness from Allah. 

On 10/15/2021 at 2:13 AM, Guest Guest said:

I am not commuting shirk nor is yousefs brothers

On 10/15/2021 at 2:13 AM, Guest Guest said:

When allahs permits you to ask him directly you still choose to go thru a third party? Which I don’t under stand why

On 10/15/2021 at 2:13 AM, Guest Guest said:

you say call on to someone else, for i don’t know what reason

 

Bro Cool stop wasting your time, this guy is trolling you lol

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40 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

 

Bro Cool stop wasting your time, this guy is trolling you lol

I do t know why you think it’s necessary*****
 

They are asking prophets first of all who had a complete different level to god. 
 

second none have ever called upon a past prophet or leader. All the examples shown in stories are asking the prophet in front of them talking to them. You are calling on a person who has already left this world 

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9 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

person lost in a lost part of the world with no access to the internet, if he found the Quran and has NO human beings around him till he dies, will he be able to make it to jannah and be a good Muslim? Even if he has 0 access to hadith. Even if he never mentions Imam Ali Hussain Or Hassan. 

And that Quran was revealed on his heart? Or an angel brought that book from skies for him? At least that man must be an Arab? 

I can understand your level from your analogy. And it is sufficient to realize I am indeed wasting my time.

Wassalam!!

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23 minutes ago, Cool said:

And that Quran was revealed on his heart? Or an angel brought that book from skies for him? At least that man must be an Arab? 

I can understand your level from your analogy. And it is sufficient to realize I am indeed wasting my time.

Wassalam!!

I asked the question correctly. 
 

if he FOUND THE QURAN. The whole Quran. I don’t care how. 
but to answer your GET AROUND reply, 

If he found the Quran book on a shelf waiting for him by allahs will. The whole Quran no ripped pages, all surahs 0 corruption. 
 

can one find salvation in that position?

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What Are The Proofs For Intercession Of Prophet Muhammad?

The Intercessors are five: the Qur’an, one’s near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).[12]

Shafa΄ah is not to ask the prophet or the imams for protection or to ward off calamity or to bring happiness and success. Rather, it is to plead to Allah, the Almighty by the sake of those who are near to Him, like the prophets and the imams.

As the Noble Qur’an asserts, only those who receive promise and permission from Allah can intercede and help people on the Day of Judgment. Intercession will be for those with good intentions and good belief in this life, who neither defied Allah nor challenged His authority but, perhaps fell behind in part of their religious obligations. Their good record will help them receive the intercession of the messengers, the imams, and the believers on the Day of Judgment.

9] Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-Ummal, Hadith 39043

[12] Ibid., Hadith 39041

https://allaboutshias.com/the-basis-of-intercession-in-shia-thought/

we find that Prophet Muhammad will use the intercession to save his Umah from hellfire.

عنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص لِكُلِّ نَبِيٍّ دَعْوَةٌ قَدْ دَعَا بِهَا وَ قَدْ سَأَلَ سُؤْلًا وَ قَدْ أَخْبَأْتُ دَعْوَتِي لِشَفَاعَتِي لِأُمَّتِي يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَة

Anas Ibn Malik narrates from Prophet, “Every prophet has a demand and request from Allah (that it will not be rejected). All of them asked their request from Allah and I saved that request to intercede for my Ummah on the Day of Judgment.”[^10]

المجلسی بسنده عَنِ الرِّضَا عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ آبَائِهِ عَنْ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص مَنْ لَمْ يُؤْمِنْ بِحَوْضِي فَلَا أَوْرَدَهُ اللَّهُ حَوْضِي وَ مَنْ لَمْ يُؤْمِنْ بِشَفَاعَتِي فَلَا أَنَالَهُ اللَّهُ شَفَاعَتِي ثُمَّ قَالَ ع إِنَّمَا شَفَاعَتِي لِأَهْلِ الْكَبَائِرِ مِنْ أُمَّتِي فَأَمَّا الْمُحْسِنُونَ فَمَا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ سَبِيلٍ

Allamah Majlesi in the great book of Bihar Al-Anwar narrates from Imam Ridha’ that he narrates from his honorable ancestors that Prophet Muhammad said, “Those who do not believe in my pool (of Kawthar) they will not enter it and those who do not believe in my intercession, God will not include them in my intercession”. Then he said, “My intercession is for those who have committed great sins from my Ummah however there is no blame on them”.[^11]

https://www.shiavault.com/books/special-salawaat-of-the-month-of-sha-ban/chapters/13-chapter-11-seeking-comfort-and-intercession/

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As the Noble Qur’an asserts, only those who receive promise and permission from Allah can intercede and help people on the Day of Judgment. Intercession will be for those with good intentions and good belief in this life, who neither defied Allah nor challenged His authority but, perhaps fell behind in part of their religious obligations. Their good record will help them receive the intercession of the messengers, the imams, and the believers on the Day of Judgment.

Imam Ja‘far al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam of the school of Ahlul Bayt, at the time of his martyrdom called his relatives and companions and said, “Verily, our intercession will never reach one who takes the prayers lightly.”13

https://www.al-islam.org/inquiries-about-shia-islam-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/intercession-shafaah

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Ali Ibn Ibrahim Qumi in his great and precious interpretation narrates from Samaaeh. He says, “I asked from Imam Sadiq about intercession of Prophet. Imam answered, “On the Day of Judgment people will be drowning in their sweat (they will sweat a lot because of hardships) so they will say to each other to go and ask Adam to intercede for them. They will come to Adam and say intercede for us. Prophet Adam will say, “I have guilt. Go to Prophet Noah.” Then people will go to Noah but he will send them to next prophet and that will repeat until they will come to Jesus and Prophet Jesus will send them to Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad will tell them, “Come with me” then Prophet will take them to the door of Heaven, the door of mercy.

Then the Prophet will prostrate and he will remain in that posture for as long as God’s will. Then God will say, “Lift your head and intercede. We will accept your intercession and ask me to give you” then Imam said, “This is the real story behind the verse, “pray your special (tahajjud) prayer during some part of the night as an additional (obligatory) prayer for you alone so that perhaps your Lord will raise you to a highly praiseworthy position.^6”.Another interesting point is that even the Ahlul Bayt are included in the Prophet intercession. In relation to the interpretation of the verse “Your Lord will soon grant you sufficient favors to please you” Ibn Abbas is reported to have said, “the interpretation is that soon God will accept your intercession about all of your Ahlul Bayt. So they all enter the heaven and you become glad[^7]”.[^8]

There is also an interesting Hadith about the place of intercession.

عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ ع عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْأَنْصَارِيِّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع قَالَ قَالَتْ فَاطِمَةُ ع لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص يَا أَبَتَاهْ أَيْنَ أَلْقَاكَ يَوْمَ الْمَوْقِفِ الْأَعْظَمِ وَ يَوْمَ الْأَهْوَالِ وَ يَوْمَ الْفَزَعِ الْأَكْبَرِ قَالَ يَا فَاطِمَةُ عِنْدَ بَابِ الْجَنَّةِ وَ مَعِي لِوَاءُ الْحَمْدِ وَ أَنَا الشَّفِيعُ لِأُمَّتِي إِلَى رَبِّي قَالَتْ يَا أَبَتَاهْ فَإِنْ لَمْ أَلْقَكَ هُنَاكَ قَالَ الْقَيْنِي عَلَى الْحَوْضِ وَ أَنَا أَسْقِي أُمَّتِي قَالَتْ يَا أَبَتَاهْ إِنْ لَمْ أَلْقَكَ هُنَاكَ قَالَ الْقَيْنِي عَلَى الصِّرَاطِ وَ أَنَا قَائِمٌ أَقُولُ رَبِّ سَلِّمْ أُمَّتِي قَالَتْ فَإِنْ لَمْ أَلْقَكَ هُنَاكَ قَالَ الْقَيْنِي وَ أَنَا عِنْدَ الْمِيزَانِ أَقُولُ رَبِّ سَلِّمْ أُمَّتِي قَالَتْ فَإِنْ لَمْ أَلْقَكَ هُنَاكَ قَالَ الْقَيْنِي عَلَى شَفِيرِ جَهَنَّمَ أَمْنَعُ شَرَرَهَا وَ لَهَبَهَا عَنْ أُمَّتِي فَاسْتَبْشَرَتْ فَاطِمَةُ بِذَلِكَ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهَا وَ عَلَى أَبِيهَا وَ بَعْلِهَا وَ بَنِيهَ

Imam Sadiq narrates a hadith from Imam Baqir from Jabir Ibn Abdullah from Imam Ali. The Commander of faithful has said, “Fatima Al-Zahra asked the Prophet: “On the day of judgment, in that great place, in that horrifying day where can I meet you?” Prophet said, “O, Fatima at the door of heaven when I hold the flag of praise and I intercede for my Ummah.” Fatima said, “If I do not find you?” Prophet said, “On the bridge of Serat while I say, “O, God keep my Ummah safe.” Fatima said, “If I do not see you there?” Prophet answered, “By the scale of justice while I say, “O, God keep my Ummah safe.” Fatima said, “If I do not see you there?” Prophet replied, “At the edge of hell when I keep away the fire of hell from my Ummah.” Then Fatima became happy. May Allah send His peace and blessings on Fatima and her father and her husband and her children”.[^9]

Also in Ahadith we find that Prophet Muhammad will use the intercession to save his Umah from hellfire.

عنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص لِكُلِّ نَبِيٍّ دَعْوَةٌ قَدْ دَعَا بِهَا وَ قَدْ سَأَلَ سُؤْلًا وَ قَدْ أَخْبَأْتُ دَعْوَتِي لِشَفَاعَتِي لِأُمَّتِي يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَة

Anas Ibn Malik narrates from Prophet, “Every prophet has a demand and request from Allah (that it will not be rejected). All of them asked their request from Allah and I saved that request to intercede for my Ummah on the Day of Judgment.”[^10]

https://www.shiavault.com/books/special-salawaat-of-the-month-of-sha-ban/chapters/13-chapter-11-seeking-comfort-and-intercession/

http://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=13667

https://www.erfan.ir/english/87478.html

https://allaboutshias.com/the-basis-of-intercession-in-shia-thought/

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Ibn Abi Al-Hadid quotes the Commander of the Faithful Ali (عليه السلام) that he said: I was like an arm to the shoulder of the Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and like the forearm to the arm, and like the hand to the forearm, he took me from childhood He raised and raised. When I grew up, he called me his brother and made me a confidant of his insistence and made him his guardian. Now I tell you a word that I have not told anyone until today!

One day, I asked the Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to ask from Allah for forgiveness for me, so he got up and performed two rak'ats of prayer, and after the prayer, he raised his blessed hands to heaven to pray; So I heard such a prayer, he said O Allah; Forgive Ali for the position that Ali has in front of you

اللّٰهُمَّ بِحَقِّ عَلِیٍّ عِنْدَکَ اغْفِرْ لِعَلِیٍّ

 

After mentioning that prayer, I said to the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)): How was this prayer? (Why did you mediate by me to Allah instead of appealing to other prophets or yourself?)

The his majesty replied: Is there anyone dearer to Allah than you to mediate with Allah through him and make him an intercessor before Allah? أوَ اَحَدٌ اکرمُ منکَ عَلیهِ فاستشفِعَ بِهِ إلَیه

 ابن ابی الحدید، شرح نهج البلاغه، ج20: 315- 316

Ibn Abi l-Hadid Sharh Nahj al-balagha (Commentary on Nahj al-balagha) ; v20 ; p 315-316

http://www.qudsonline.ir/news/162594/چرا-پیامبر-ص-حضرت-علی-ع-را-واسطه-ی-پذیرش-دعای-خویش-قرار

https://www.erfan.ir/mafatih489/دعای-توسل-به-حضرت-پیامبر(ص)-و-امام-علی(ع)-و-ارزش-آن-کلیات-مفاتیح-الجنان-با-ترجمه-استاد-حسین-انصاریان

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ibn_Abi_l-Hadid

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Sharh_nahj_al-balagha_(by_Ibn_Abi_l-Hadid)

 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235049482-tawassul-and-istigatha/

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234985871-tawassul-is-illogical/

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234997848-tawassul-did-prophet-or-imams-use-waseela/

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Kinds of Wasila

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Some of the issues which have been mentioned as Wasila to become close to God in narrations of the Ahl al-Bayt (a) are as follows:

  • Belief in One God and the Prophet (s)
  • Jihad in the way of God
  • Ikhlas (Sincerity)
  • Establishing the Prayer
  • Paying Zakat
  • Fasting the month of Ramadan
  • Hajj and 'Umra
  • Caring for one's kin
  • Giving charity, covertly and overtly
  • The Qur'an
  • God's names and attributes
  • Making Tawassul to the faithful's prayers and du'as
  • Making Tawassul to the Prophet's (s) du'as
  • Making Tawassul to the Prophet (s) himself, Infallible Imams (a) and the Ahl al-Bayt (a)

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/tawassul-resorting-intermediary

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol5-n4-2000/tawassul-seeking-way-unto-allah-abd-al-karim-shirazi/tawassul

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Tawassul

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19 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

second none have ever called upon a past prophet or leader. All the examples shown in stories are asking the prophet in front of them talking to them. You are calling on a person who has already left this world 

 

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Making Tawassul to the Prophet (s) after his Demise

Ibn Taymiyya said that benefiting from du'as of the Prophet (s) and the righteous is permissible only during their lifetimes and after they pass away, they cannot do anything and resoring to them is not permissible.

However, this idea of Ibn Taymiyya contradicts with the Islamic idea of life after death. The life of prophets (a) and the friends of God continues after they move on to the world of Barzakh (middle world). It is obvious that the prophets (a), who have higher positions than the martyrs, will continue their lives after this world.[28] Moreover, from the Islamic viewpoint, death is not the end and destruction of human being, but moving from one world to another.[29]

The same as one can ask the Prophet (s) to make du'a and ask God for the person's forgiveness during his lifetime, he (s) can be asked for the same request after he (a) has passed away; since, according to the Qur'an and traditions, connection between one living in this world and souls of the people in Barzakh is possible.

The dialogues between the two prophets Salih (a) and Shu'ayb (a) with their perished people,[30] the fact that God orders His Prophet (s) in the Qur'an to speak with the previous prophets (a),[31] and the conversation of the Prophet (s) and Imam 'Ali (a) with those who were killed in the battles of Badr and Jamal[32] are evidences for the above claim.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Tawassul

17 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

I asked the question correctly. 
 

if he FOUND THE QURAN. The whole Quran. I don’t care how. 
but to answer your GET AROUND reply, 

If he found the Quran book on a shelf waiting for him by allahs will. The whole Quran no ripped pages, all surahs 0 corruption. 
 

can one find salvation in that position?

In this case holy Quran is a  Wasila/mediator as mentor or prophet/Imam of him toward salvation by will of Allah which he can find salvation through holy Quran as mediator by will of Allah.

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On 10/15/2021 at 2:24 AM, Guest Guest said:

How will hussain heal you? A doctor can give you medicine?

 

by your logic

you are asking Allah to heal you, by asking hussain to ask Allah. 

so you are associating a partner with Allah. 

Salam it's totally wrong conclusion due to your lack of knowledge  & hatred of Shia muslims  likeise rest of typical  wahabists/ Salafists which have phd in Shirkology of Shias :hahaha:

Associating partner with Allah is considering  his creation likewise him in contrst to your wrong conclusion which you repeat it without learning from any debate just because  your ignorance  & hatred has blinded you .

On 10/15/2021 at 2:24 AM, Guest Guest said:

please stop this nonsense. Let’s argue the facts. Grab a verse or hadith one by one and we can dispute. Not talk out of faith only, but true logic and facts. Even your Shia hadith I am willing to accept if they correlate with the Quran. 

you never accept anyone of them because you stubbornly  just want to prove your deviated belief in similar  fashion when you have posted your nonsense as "Guest Reply " .

On 10/16/2021 at 5:36 PM, Guest Guest said:

hey are asking prophets first of all who had a complete different level to god. 
 

second none have ever called upon a past prophet or leader. All the examples shown in stories are asking the prophet in front of them talking to them. You are calling on a person who has already left this world

this is another typical wahabi/salafi nonsense .

On 10/16/2021 at 9:42 AM, Guest Guest said:

I believe I already follow the imams the correct way. 

you certainly  follow Imams of ignorance  likewise Ibn Taymiah  & rest of wahabi/Salfi evil Imam due to your great ignorance  & hatred & also you want to deviate others from right path likewise yourself  .

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29. Ignorance

Allah, the Wise, has said:

خُذِ الْعَفْوَ وَ امُرْ بِالْعُرْفِ وَ أََعْرِضْ عَنِ الْجَاهِلِينَ

“Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant.”1

Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) has said:

أَلْجَهْلُ أََصْلُ كُلِّ شَرٍّ.

“Ignorance is the root of all evils.”2

Short Expalantion

Ignorance is a state that exists within humans and one who possesses it advances towards darkness, whereas one who keeps it away from himself reaches luminosity and acquires discernment and insight.

https://www.al-islam.org/anecdotes-reflection-part-2-sayyid-ali-akbar-sadaaqat/29-ignorance

 

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hadith from the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and says: (The Messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said to me: I am not afraid of my nation, not of the believer. And not from the polytheist, for the believer prevents his faith from doing wrong, and God humiliates the polytheist through disobedience but i fear people  who are hypocrite  in their heart  and  seemingly have wise language, they say things that you like, but they do things that you find ugly and unpleasant );

They make the divine verses and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) their pendant; But in practice they do the opposite

«وَ لَقَدْ قَالَ لِي رَسُولُ اللهِ(صلى الله عليه وآله) إِنِّي لَا أَخَافُ عَلَى أُمَّتِي مُؤْمِناً وَ لَا مُشْرِكاً؛ أَمَّا الْمُؤْمِنُ فَيَمْنَعُهُ اللهُ بِإِيمَانِهِ، وَ أَمَّا الْمُشْرِكُ فَيَقْمَعُهُ‏(3) اللهُ بِشِرْكِهِ، وَ لَكِنِّي أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُمْ كُلَّ مُنَافِقِ الْجَنَانِ(4)، عَالِمِ اللِّسَانِ‏ يَقُولُ مَا تَعْرِفُونَ، وَ يَفْعَلُ مَا تُنْكِرُونَ».

Quote

Harith ibn Mughayrah with his own document that he said: “I told Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) that: did the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) say: "من مات لا یعرف امامه مات میتة جاهلیة" “if anyone dies without recognizing his Imam dies ignorantly”? He answered that: “yes”. I said: “does it mean absolute ignorance or just not knowing the Imam?” He answered that: “the ignorance includes disbelief, disunity and misguidance.[3] [4]

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=23&lid=1&catid=24404&mid=250527

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A clear example of this was in the time of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Mu'awiyah and his entourage, who rose up in the name of taking revenge of blood of Uthman, who was apparently the successor of the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and raised the Qurans on spears when forced to do so.  They prayed and in Friday prayers they said beautiful words in accordance with the book and tradition; But to weaken the Imam of guidance; Imam Ali (عليه السلام), who was appointed by both God and the people, did not miss any opportunity. They did not shy away from killing innocent people and looting the property of Muslims and ambushing the border areas of Iraq, and by using this method, they were finally able to rely on the place of the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and regress Islam. (5)

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=42&lid=0&catid=30081&mid=415200

https://makarem-ir.translate.goog/main.aspx?typeinfo=42&lid=0&catid=30081&mid=415200&_x_tr_sl=fa&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=nui,sc

Quote

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said : 'Ask in order to understand, and do not ask in order to find fault, for surely the ignorant man who wants to learn resembles a man of knowledge, and surely a man of knowledge who wants to be difficult resembles an ignorant man who wants to find fault. '

 

Quote

Do not talk about knowledge with the foolish so that they deny you, nor with the ignorant so that they find you oppressive, but talk about it with those of its people whom you meet who will accept it and understand it.

 

Quote

New Definition of Islam
I am making a connection which no one has made before me: Islam is submission, and submission is certainty, and certainty is the affirmation of the truth, and affirmation of the truth is acknowledgement, and acknowledgement is performance of what is obligatory, and performance of what is obligatory is appropriate action.

 

Quote

To keep silent when you can say something wise and useful is as bad as propagating foolish and unwise thought.

 

Quote

One’s behavior is the index of one’s mind

https://www.imamali.net/?id=2567

Quote

Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) made the army of reason overcome the army of ignorance: Ayatollah Khamenei

On that day, the people who won in the spiritual fight between virtues and vices and managed to make the army of reason triumph over the army of ignorance were not but a small group; nonetheless, their perseverance and endurance in resistance in that field of honor have caused thousands of people throughout history to learn a lesson and follow their example.

 

Quote

If they did not triumph over their vices in their own self, the tree of virtue would have dried up in history; but they irrigated that tree, and you have seen many in your time that made their virtues win over their vices within their selves and made their worldly desires surmounted by correct religious and rational sentiments, insight and thinking.

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/5166/Imam-Hussain-as-made-the-army-of-reason-overcome-the-army-of

 

 

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On 10/11/2021 at 3:17 PM, Lion of Shia said:

so can one chant ya hussain for intercession or tasswaul?

There is no problem in doing it, if (and this is a big IF)

You say it with absolute clarity of mind and purpose that help only comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not from Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)). You are only using the name of Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)) to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on your behalf to help you. You are not asking Imam Hussein directly. If you were to ask Imam Hussein as the cause of the help and not as the agent (who approaches Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on your behalf) that would be Shirk. 

If you have this clear in your mind, (which I think the vast Majority of Shia do) then you can ask, if not, then don't ask. 

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On 10/16/2021 at 8:12 AM, Guest Guest said:

Listen brother I will end with one last thing, I have a question for you  

 

A person lost in a lost part of the world with no access to the internet, if he found the Quran and has NO human beings around him till he dies, will he be able to make it to jannah and be a good Muslim? Even if he has 0 access to hadith. Even if he never mentions Imam Ali Hussain Or Hassan. 
 

You can answer Yes or No. if you want to explain with your No then please do so. 
 

if you answer Yes, then tell me what’s that point with all this teaching you are trying to inform me about, or why I need it in my life? 
—-

 

it seems everyone I ask a Shia what they do that I need to implement into my life or I will not make it to heaven I lose them. And please don’t so if you follow the prophet then you have to follow the ahlul Bayt. I believe I already follow the imams the correct way. 

What kind of logical approach is this? Let me modify your question and you can answer it the same:

"A person lost in a lost part of the world with no access to the internet, he has no access to quran or islam till he dies, will he be able to make it to jannah and be a good Human? Even if he has 0 access to Quran. Even if he never mentions Allah? "

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57 minutes ago, root said:

"A person lost in a lost part of the world with no access to the internet, he has no access to quran or islam till he dies, will he be able to make it to jannah and be a good Human? Even if he has 0 access to Quran. Even if he never mentions Allah? "

Lol you destroyed my question. Haram alayk

 

- I said he has a FULL Quran 

- so obviously he will mention Allah 

you are just want to answer no to my question but know you wouldn’t be able to have a good reason. 
 

one can read the whole Quran, know Allah, and make it to heaven without interacting with one human, or needing a hadith, or knowing any of the Imams. 
 

Hence everything WE argue about shouldn’t be a main decision factor of religion. 

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6 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

one can read the whole Quran, know Allah, and make it to heaven without interacting with one human, or needing a hadith, or knowing any of the Imams. 

The Quran says (at various places) obey Allah and obey His messenger. 

Without hadith you can't obey the messenger because you don't know what he instructed. 

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24 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

The Quran says (at various places) obey Allah and obey His messenger. 

Without hadith you can't obey the messenger because you don't know what he instructed. 

Quran is God words, so what is the words of our Prophet so we can learn to what exactly we need to obey. They are exactly the hadiths. It means there are such an essential laws and beliefs uttered by the prophet that we must believe in it or else we become kafir and these words are not found in Quran. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Quran is God words, so what is the words of our Prophet so we can learn to what exactly we need to obey. They are exactly the hadiths. It means there are such an essential laws and beliefs uttered by the prophet that we must believe in it or else we become kafir and these words are not found in Quran

There are TONS of verses where Allah says 

“Say O Prophet” 
 

So yes we could learn from Muhammad JUST from the Quran, but we have more knowledge with the Hadith. NOT denying. 

——-

 

A Kafir is one who Rejects/Denies Allah as the One lord and Muhammad as his final prophet.

 

There is sufficient information in the Quran about how the prophet acted, and what the prophet did, and what we should do as Muslims. ENOUGH to please allah
 

the hadith just HELPS, In SOME cases. 

But back to my example, it won’t make sense if a person doesn’t have access to the hadiths but only had the QURAN, he wouldn’t be a believer, nor be able to please his lord. Allah doesn’t make life hard, even IF this person prayed the wrong way but still managed to pray to Allah according how he believed was correct from following the Quran, I believe Allah would have mercy on him, and accept his Salat. 
 

Allah has made clear he is not trying to make life hard for us, in the Quran. 
 

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7 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

So yes we could learn from Muhammad JUST from the Quran, but we have more knowledge with the Hadith. NOT denying. 

——-

 

A Kafir is one who Rejects/Denies Allah as the One lord and Muhammad as his final prophet.

 

There is sufficient information in the Quran about how the prophet acted, and what the prophet did, and what we should do as Muslims. ENOUGH to please allah
 

the hadith just HELPS, In SOME cases. 

Salam you have misunderstood  the verses which calls prophet  Muhammad (pbu) which "“Say O Prophet” " but on the other hand there is no clear verse except  about procedure of Ablution/Wudu which Quranists & Sunnis have acted against  it which rest of procedures likewise praying /Salat/Namaz & fasting & etc only have mentioned as orders in holy Quran but on the other hand full procedure of these actions has mentioned in hadiths which nobody except prophet (pbu) & infallible  Imam can extract full procedure  from holy Quran ,so therefore we only could from both of the Quran & prophet  Muhammad (pbu) & infallible  Imams (عليه السلام)  which jst relying  on of these two wouldn't  be sufficient because Quran has expressed  anything  briefly  which explanation  & extending  it is duty of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & infallible  Imam (عليه السلام) from his progeny .

_____________________________________

Your definition  from Kafir is based on harsh interpretation  in similarfashion of wahabist/Salafis which call everyone  even muslims except themselves as Kafir while in contrast of your definition  people  of book which have denied/rejected   "Allah as the One lord and Muhammad as his final prophet " then have not mentioned as Kafir .

__________________________________

Sufficient information  in holy Quran is only available  for prophet Muhammad  (pbu) & infallible  Imam[s](as) from his progeny  which you can't  justify your wrong understanding  under guise of just pleasing Allah.

_________________

in conclusion both of Quran & hadith helps only if has came from infallible  prophet  & Imam which is in line with holy Quran not any type of hadith which maybe in contrast  with holy Quran.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

But back to my example, it won’t make sense if a person doesn’t have access to the hadiths but only had the QURAN, he wouldn’t be a believer, nor be able to please his lord. Allah doesn’t make life hard, even IF this person prayed the wrong way but still managed to pray to Allah according how he believed was correct from following the Quran, I believe Allah would have mercy on him, and accept his Salat. 

Obviously. Allah is not going to punish someone for not learning from the ahadith if they do not have access to them. But if a person does have access to the ahadith and intentionally does not learn them, then this person is disobeying Allah and the Messenger to a severe extent. I would even go to the extent of assuming that this person is a kafir for intentionally rejecting the teachings and commands of the Prophet. How would any true Muslim dare to reject the commands and teachings of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which are found in the authentic ahadith?

19 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

you are just want to answer no to my question but know you wouldn’t be able to have a good reason.

No. It is clear that you do not have good reason. If a person does not have the Quran nor the ahadith nor ever heard of Islam, do you think this is person is guaranteed to be condemned to hell? Definitely not as he is not guilty for his ignorance and Allah is just, so he will be judged according to his good and bad deeds. So, by your logic, a person does not need the Quran to enter heaven. This is what @root is pointing out in your flawed reasoning.

8 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

There is sufficient information in the Quran about how the prophet acted, and what the prophet did, and what we should do as Muslims.

It is clear that you haven't read the entire Quran. Anyone who has read the entire Quran would know that there is not much information regarding the commands of the Prophet, like, for example, when it comes to how to pray. The Quran also does not go into detail about how the Prophet acted and what he did (and anyone who has read and studied the Quran would know this). The authentic ahadith are the sources in which a person can find the commands of the Prophet, as well as the Ahl al-Bayt. There are some verses that need the ahadith to explain, like the abrogated verses regarding the permissibility of drinking alcohol.

But of course, you are more enlightened than the many great scholars of Islam who have studied Islam in great depth from the time of the Prophet and Ahl al-Bayt until now. 

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11 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

There are TONS of verses where Allah says 

“Say O Prophet” 
 

So yes we could learn from Muhammad JUST from the Quran, but we have more knowledge with the Hadith. NOT denying. 

——-

 

A Kafir is one who Rejects/Denies Allah as the One lord and Muhammad as his final prophet.

 

There is sufficient information in the Quran about how the prophet acted, and what the prophet did, and what we should do as Muslims. ENOUGH to please allah
 

the hadith just HELPS, In SOME cases. 

Allah has made clear he is not trying to make life hard for us, in the Quran. 
 

Don't make something important to sound like less important. Disobeying God and Prophet Muhammad (saws) and rejecting their sayings is Kufur. So Hadiths are very important and part of the Obedience of God and Prophet. I clearly distinguish that God words are Qur'an and the rest are the Prophet, and we can not reject the Prophet words either because of the Obeying is wajib.

Quote

But back to my example, it won’t make sense if a person doesn’t have access to the hadiths but only had the QURAN, he wouldn’t be a believer, nor be able to please his lord. Allah doesn’t make life hard, even IF this person prayed the wrong way but still managed to pray to Allah according how he believed was correct from following the Quran, I believe Allah would have mercy on him, and accept his Salat. 
 

Imagine if the person have only access to Hadiths only. Then his belief will be judged based on the knowledge of Hadiths and his faith. But most of the case is that we have access to both of them and we need to follow both of them.

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you have misunderstood  the verses which calls prophet  Muhammad (pbu) which "“Say O Prophet” " but on the other hand there is no clear verse except  about procedure of Ablution/Wudu which Quranists & Sunnis have acted against  it which rest of procedures likewise praying /Salat/Namaz & fasting & etc only have mentioned as orders in holy Quran but on the other hand full procedure of these actions has mentioned in hadiths which nobody except prophet (pbu) & infallible  Imam can extract full procedure  from holy Quran ,so therefore we only could from both of the Quran & prophet  Muhammad (pbu) & infallible  Imams (عليه السلام)  which jst relying  on of these two wouldn't  be sufficient because Quran has expressed  anything  briefly  which explanation  & extending  it is duty of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & infallible  Imam (عليه السلام) from his progeny

You said I have misunderstood the Say O Prophet verses, why? I did not understood if you gave me a reason or not. 
 

as for the wudhu verses, 

 

Q. 5:6 O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.

Q. 4:43 O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving

 

 

———- 

 

my comment posted, there is SUFFICIENT information ENOUGH to be a good practicing Muslim, and Please Allah on what he wants from us. And if someone from my example only had the Quran it will lead him to jannah. Without the knowledge of hadith. The hadith only help for BETTER, not as a. RELIANCE TEXT. 

if you still disagree please tell me why otherwise please don’t criticize my opinion.
 

thanks for your reply. JazakAlla

5 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Obviously. Allah is not going to punish someone for not learning from the ahadith if they do not have access to them. But if a person does have access to the ahadith and intentionally does not learn them, then this person is disobeying Allah and the Messenger to a severe extent. I would even go to the extent of assuming that this person is a kafir for intentionally rejecting the teachings and commands of the Prophet. How would any true Muslim dare to reject the commands and teachings of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which are found in the authentic ahadith?

Then let’s use me as an example, I follow the hadith for trying to eat and pray (wudhu) how the prophet did, and other small things I have implemented in my life, being kind to the weak, watching my mouth from bad words etc. 

Some other hadiths I have rejected (said by Sunnis and Shias) because it literally did not make any sense to me as to why a Muslim would have to accept that. 
 

for example, a Sunni hadith said you should only eat 7 dates or 1 if you choose to eat dates.
 

and many more deeper hadiths.
 

im sure you reject some hadiths. How do you dare?
-

So am I considered a kafir to YOU? or are you going to pick and choose with hadith? And who are you to tell me which hadith I should and shouldn’t follow? And how do I know they are truth?

my point from the beginning. ONLY allahs words are the most sufficient. And the hadiths that help you UNDERSTAND the Quran better.  

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7 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

So, by your logic, a person does not need the Quran to enter heaven. This is what @root is pointing out in your flawed reasoning.

Well the example wasn’t for someone who doesn’t know the Quran. That would be allahs decision and I’m sure I’ve heard Allah will accept the good people who don’t know about Islam. 

 

7 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Allah is not going to punish someone for not learning from the ahadith if they do not have access to them. But if a person does have access to the ahadith and intentionally does not learn them, then this person is disobeying Allah and the Messenger to a severe extent.

Which one do I need so i am not punished? I find it highly doubtful but I will consider your words and look more into it

 

7 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
16 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

It is clear that you haven't read the entire Quran. Anyone who has read the entire Quran would know that there is not much information regarding the commands of the Prophet, like, for example, when it comes to how to pray. The Quran also does not go into detail about how the Prophet acted and what he did (and anyone who has read and studied the Quran would know this). The authentic ahadith are the sources in which a person can find the commands of the Prophet, as well as the Ahl al-Bayt. There are some verses that need the ahadith to explain, like the abrogated verses regarding the permissibility of drinking alcohol.

But of course, you are more enlightened than the many great scholars of Islam who have studied Islam in great depth from the time of the Prophet and Ahl al-Bayt until now

Lol I’m not more enlighten that all scholars but average joes could be smarter than Some scholars. Trust God before you trust a man. We are nothing without the scholars, I have learned from many Sunni and shia leaders.

 

you are right we wouldn’t know how to pray without the Quran. 
but some Muslims will claim the other group still doesn’t know how to pray, so what has it really solved? As I stated you take what makes sense and lines up with the Quran. That’s my Bottom Line. 
 

SO ANY HADITH that contradicts the Qurans teachings are rejected by me. 100% 

4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Don't make something important to sound like less important. Disobeying God and Prophet Muhammad (saws) and rejecting their sayings is Kufur. So Hadiths are very important and part of the Obedience of God and Prophet. I clearly distinguish that God words are Qur'an and the rest are the Prophet, and we can not reject the Prophet words either because of the Obeying is wajib

A kafir is one who Rejects Allah, his prophet or his book

One who doesn’t follow the prophet when he knows the prophets words is a Kafir because he is rejecting the prophet 

You are the one who rejects some hadiths and accepts the one you like, so do I. So what’s the big deal????

why can I choose some hadiths and you can too but it’s only wrong when I do? You don’t accept all Sunni hadiths. 
I don’t accept some Sunni/Shia hadiths because not all hadiths are 100% accurate. You don’t because you just don’t believe the hadith. I am solving the issue for you and telling you the hadiths are not all 100% true words. Only true book we have is the Quran. The hadith you must use more common sense to distinguish 

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4 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

kafir is one who Rejects Allah, his prophet or his book

One who doesn’t follow the prophet when he knows the prophets words

Good, we agree. Shaytan became kafir for disobeying God and still he have faith for God. 

4 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

You are the one who rejects some hadiths and accepts the one you like, so do I. So what’s the big deal????

You have been here very unclear of what your stance is. Reading by your previous posts it make people think that you think hadiths have less importance in our belief or that Quran is enough for us. 

It is not enough, because part of the obedience is prophet words so we need Hadiths also. And they are no less important. 

I don't care what hadiths you accept, but it is essential to believe in them. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Good, we agree. Shaytan became kafir for disobeying God and still he have faith for God. 

You have been here very unclear of what your stance is. Reading by your previous posts it make people think that you think hadiths have less importance in our belief or that Quran is enough for us. 

It is not enough, because part of the obedience is prophet words so we need Hadiths also. And they are no less important. 

I don't care what hadiths you accept, but it is essential to believe in them. 

Well you should care as a person who claims to follow a religion. Wh my would you want to follow anything that is wrong? That’s weak as a human being. If someone proved to me nabi Essa was God and the trilogy and the Bible’s today was correct, I would believe it. 
 

none the less, you don’t need to prove to me anything, if you don’t want to. 
 

im just proving that that you are wrong for saying you must accept all hadith, and it seems you agree to an extent since you accepted that I can reject some hadith, and reject some. 
with that said, let’s figure out together which hadith are accurate and which are wrong? Because that has been the reason for the Islam’s separation. Because of HADITH

so that’s why I care, and that’s why I claim what I say. Not all Shias agree with each other. Ask yourself why.
 

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

It is not enough, because part of the obedience is prophet words so we need Hadiths also. And they are no less important

Maybe we have a different perspective on what’s enough. 
I said the Quran is sufficient enough for any Muslim to be a MUSLIM and ( PLEASE ALLAH. )

I believe the hadith can make a Muslim a better Muslim, or a much worse Muslim (unintentionally, GOD knows each human) 

And that should be unanimously agreed because all humans are different. Good and bad, smart and uneducated. Some follow it wrongly some follow it correctly. 
 

main example since Shirk is the topic;

some take the Imams as more than what they are, (widely admitted and looked down upon by Shia leaders today) 

and some have taught me on here on the what they believe is the correct way to ask the imams, and admitted the other Shias who do ask the imams directly are wrong. 
 

— 

conclusion. 
 

Some hadiths have led people to believe certain things (over time) and, the Shia sect has strongly continued the tradition. **Sunnis of course have their own issues as well. Not attacking Shiism, I’m attacking the blind way of every person thinking what THEY think is the ONLY correct way, and not willing to open their heart to listen to others. I am willing so please don’t criticize me***

 

this is my belief and understanding. If you think I’m wrong please educate me and I’d love to hear a different view. But it sounds logical to me 

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8 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

im sure you reject some hadiths. How do you dare?
-

So am I considered a kafir to YOU? or are you going to pick and choose with hadith? And who are you to tell me which hadith I should and shouldn’t follow? And how do I know they are truth?

The weak and unauthentic ahadith are rejected. The authentic ahadith are accepted. We cannot reject or accept whatever we like.

And no, you would not be a kafir. I am saying that I would assume that those who reject all ahadith, including the authentic ones, are kafireen because there are definitely some authentic ahadith and by rejecting all ahadith, they are rejecting the commands of the Prophet. However, these people are definitely sinful.

The scholars are the ones who are able to determine which ahadith are reliable and authentic or not through analysis. One of the conditions is that the ahadith must be in line with the Quran and they cannot contradict or go against the words of the Quran.

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6 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Well the example wasn’t for someone who doesn’t know the Quran.

Your example was about someone who does not know the ahadith because he has no access to them. And @root's example was about someone who does not have access to the Quran, ahadith and knowledge of Islam. What is your point?

6 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

but some Muslims will claim the other group still doesn’t know how to pray, so what has it really solved? As I stated you take what makes sense and lines up with the Quran. That’s my Bottom Line. 

But there are many similarities, which show that there are similar details in both Shia and Sunni ahadith sources which reinforce their reliability and the fact that the Prophet gave many commands which are not found in the Quran.

As for the differences, you must refer to the more reliable ahadith and act according to them to the best of your ability. The ahadith of the Ahl al-Bayt are more accurate than those of the salaf.

6 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

One who doesn’t follow the prophet when he knows the prophets words is a Kafir because he is rejecting the prophet

Yes, which means that the commands of the Prophet found in both Shia and Sunni ahadith and are unanimously agreed upon by all scholars must be accepted and adhered to. Anyone who rejects those commands of the Prophet which are unanimously agreed upon by all qualified scholars becomes a kafir because he is rejecting the command of the Prophet. As for the differences in opinions between Shia and Sunni scholars, you must refer to those with the more reliable ahadith, which are those from the Ahl al-Bayt who are direct descendants of the Prophet. As for the differences in opinions between the Shia scholars, it is necessary to refer to the most learned and knowledgeable scholar who has the best ability of deriving the Islamic law from the ahadith.

Or you can become a scholar yourself and find out what the commands of the Prophet are from your interpretation of the ahadith which you have determined are reliable and authentic. 

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28 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

As for the differences, you must refer to the more reliable ahadith and act according to them to the best of your ability. The ahadith of the Ahl al-Bayt are more accurate than those of the salaf

Well that’s the main problem, by choosing a side, future generations will think they need to choose a side, and some will be part of ahlul bayt and some will be salaf, when those uneducated will not realize the similarities. They will be blinded by the differences as our current generation is. And by continuing to label yourself Sunni or Shia you help this problem. Allah knows best. Not judging anyone. 

 

30 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Anyone who rejects those commands of the Prophet which are unanimously agreed upon by all qualified scholars becomes a kafir because he is rejecting the command of the Prophet

No because it falls back to the problem that the hadith are not the word of god, and ONLY the word is god is 100% True. We don’t know which hadith even if unanimously agreed by scholars are 100% said by the prophet. Why I emphasize that the hadith must line up with the Quran. There are tons of documents unanimously agreed by Christian scholars that Nabi Eissa did this or said that or meant this, but it does not line up with the Quran. And furthermore, to a Muslim who …..

Quran 2:285

The Messenger ˹firmly˺ believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. They ˹all˺ believe in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His messengers. ˹They proclaim,˺ “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and obey. ˹We seek˺ Your forgiveness, our Lord! And to You ˹alone˺ is the final return.

…..believes in Allah, his angels, his books, and his messengers should believe that if something doesn’t align with his scripture is false.

I don’t know enough hadith to criticize any, specifically ones that scholars say is true but could be wrong. In fact I’m not claiming any are wrong because no hadith has been brought up that I can reject as of now.

So again, you will not be considered a kafir if I reject a scholarly agreed upon hadith. I hope I wouldn’t have to reject any. But I’ve never NEEDED any to begin with. I still haven’t had any Shia show me any hadith that I don’t already do as a Muslim (former Sunni) or that I need that a SHIA does that I Should be doing.

—-

I have said everything about this topic so I’m done unless specific hadiths have been brought up. 

39 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Or you can become a scholar yourself and find out what the commands of the Prophet are from your interpretation of the ahadith which you have determined are reliable and authentic

I don’t believe we Only need to rely on scholars. There’s much common sense. But Allah does tell us in the Quran, when we differ

 

refer to Allah and Muhammad. 
 

So, when we differ about calling Ali to praise Allah, where does Muhammad say we can?

 

don’t show me a hadith where Muhammad praises Ali, because YES Ali is one of the greatest. 
 

let’s refer to Allah and Muhammad, 

where does Allah in the Quran, or Muhammad from the hadith allow us to call Ya Ali or Hussain, to contact Allah. 
 

- I do not want to debate this tho to be honest because in the last week many verses brought up on here to defend this were just not strong enough to support the Ya Ali call. So Let’s not. 
 

jazak Allah Khair, salam Alaykum

You have been very kind in your replies. I appreciate it. I mean no harm in my words what’s so ever!!! Allah knows best. Trust me or trust me not!

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16 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

if you still disagree please tell me why otherwise please don’t criticize my opinion.
 

thanks for your reply. JazakAlla

Salam your reply is in similar fashion of Umar the second caliph who has said book of Allah is sufficient  which after demise of prophet  (pbu) he has rejected two verses about cleaning yourself  by clean earth although  his has claimed  that his intention from rejection  of some verses likewise cleaning by earth & alternation in Three Divorces in One Session & etc has been for pleasing God which due his rejections & innovation in our era we have faced with Daesh/ISIS terrorist  which were using his logic which when they were beheading  innocent  Muslims whether Sunni or Shia , they were referring to verses of holy Quran & some hadiths to justify themselves  as good practicing  Muslims which their unislamic  deeds is for pleasing God.

Quote

The true fact of this calamity

The authors of Sihah (books of Hadith) and the historians had detailed this event in their books and considered it as one of the true facts.

Al-Bukhari mentioned 2 a tradition narrated by Ubaydillah bin Abdullah bin Mas’ood that Ibn Abbas had said: “When the Prophet (S) was about to die, there were some men in his house among whom was Umar. The Prophet (S) said: “Come on! Let me write you a book that you will never go astray after it.” Umar said: “The Prophet (S) has been overcome by pain. We have the Qur'an. The Book of Allah suffices us.”

https://www.al-islam.org/al-nass-wal-ijtihad-text-and-interpretation-abd-al-husayn-sharaf-al-din-al-musawi/chapter-2

16 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Q. 5:6 O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.

Q. 4:43 O you who have believed, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying or in a state of janabah, except those passing through [a place of prayer], until you have washed [your whole body]. And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving

 

Quote

Volume 1, Book 7, Number 342:

Narrated Shaqiq bin Salama:

I was with 'Abdullah and Abu Musa; the latter asked the former, "O Abu AbdurRahman! What is your opinion if somebody becomes Junub and no water is available?" 'Abdullah replied, "Do not pray till water is found." Abu Musa said, "What do you say about the statement of 'Ammar (who was ordered by the Prophet to perform Tayammum). The Prophet said to him: "Perform Tayammum and that would be sufficient." 'Abdullah replied, "Don't you see that 'Umar was not satisfied by 'Ammar's statement?" Abu- Musa said, "All right, leave 'Ammalr's statement, but what will you say about this verse (of Tayammum)?" 'Abqiullah kept quiet and then said, "If we allowed it, then they would probably perform Tayammum even if water was available, if one of them found it (water) cold." The narrator added, "I said to Shaqrq, "Then did 'Abdullah dislike to perform Tayammum because of this?" He replied, "Yes."

Volume 1, Book 7, Number 343:

Narrated Al-A'mash:

Shaqiq said, "While I was sitting with 'Abdullah and Abu Musa Al-Ash-'ari, the latter asked the former, 'If a person becomes Junub and does not find water for one month, can he perform Tayammum and offer his prayer?' (He applied in the negative). Abu Musa said, 'What do you say about this verse from Surat "Al-Ma'ida": When you do not find water then perform Tayammum with clean earth? 'Abdullah replied, 'If we allowed it then they would probably perform Tayammum with clean earth even if water were available but cold.' I said to Shaqiq, 'You then disliked to perform Tayammum because of this?' Shaqiq said,'Yes.' (Shaqiq added), "Abu Musa said, 'Haven't you heard the statement of 'Ammar to 'Umar? He said: I was sent out by Allah's Apostle for some job and I became Junub and could not find water so I rolled myself over the dust (clean earth) like an animal does, and when I told the Prophet of that he said, 'Like this would have been sufficient.' The Prophet (saying so) lightly stroked the earth with his hand once and blew it off, then passed his (left) hand over the back of his right hand or his (right) hand over the back of his left hand and then passed them over his face.' So 'Abdullah said to Abu- Musa, 'Don't you know that 'Umar was not satisfied with 'Ammar's statement?' "

Narrated Shaqiq: While I was with 'Abdullah and Abu Musa, the latter said to the former, "Haven't you heard the statement of 'Ammar to 'Umar? He said, "Allah's Apostle sent you and me out and I became Junub and rolled myself in the dust (clean earth) (for Tayammum). When we came to Allah's Apostle I told him about it and he said, 'This would have been sufficient,' passing his hands over his face and the backs of his hands once only.' "

https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/007_sbt.html

https://mahajjah.com/umar-was-unaware-of-the-ruling-of-tayammum/

Quote

dream seen by one of the companions.

Prayer without Taharah (Ritual Purity)

Al-Bukhari narrates that one day a man came to ‘Umar and said, “I am in a state of janabah (ritual impurity) and I cannot find water.” ‘Umar told him, “Do not pray.” Ammar Ibn Yasir, who was sitting there retorted:

Do you not remember that you and I were in a battalion going to the battles, and both of us woke up and found ourselves in a state of ritual impurity, and we did not find water? So you did not pray, but I did the tayammum (ritual purification by means of dust) in the dust. We mentioned this to the Prophet, and the Prophet said that you should have put your hands in the dust and performed the tayammum. 121

Primarily, the Qur’an prescribes the tayammum for situations when water cannot be found. (c. 4:43) Therefore, most of the Sunni schools of thought follow the Qur’an in this regard. Only the Hanafi school follows ‘Umar’s opinion and indicates that tayammum is permissible only while traveling or ill, but in all other cases, a person who cannot find water for taharah should not pray.

Tarawih Prayers

Al-Bukhari narrates from Abdullah Ibn Abd al-Qari:

I went with ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab during his period of caliphate one night in the Month of Ramadhan to the mosque. We saw the people praying scattered, not together. ‘Umar said, “It is best if these people can pray together, and there is only one who leads the prayers.” So he gathered them and appointed Ubay Ibn Ka’ab to lead the prayers. Another night, I went with ‘Umar to the mosque and saw that the people were praying together, organized, and ‘Umar said, “What an excellent innovation (niam al-bidah hadhihi).”122

Prayers for the Deceased

Although narrators like Ahmad Ibn al-Hanbal, al-Muslim, and al-Nisa’i all relate that the Prophet read prayers over the deceased with five takbiraat (uttering “Allahu akbar”);123 however, ‘Umar reduced the number of takbiraat in prayers over the deceased from five to four.124

Three Divorces in One Session

According to the Holy Qur’an (c. 2:229), a married couple may divorce each other three times before they are no longer allowed to remarry each other.125 Thus, divorce must be declared and its rulings applied on three separate periods; the pronouncement of the three divorces cannot be declared in one declaration. The Holy Prophet explained:

A man came to the Prophet and told him, “I divorced my wife.” The Prophet asked, “How did you divorce her?” He said, “Three times in one session.” The Prophet said, “That divorce is considered only one divorce. It cannot be considered three divorces, so you may take your wife back.”126

However, historians say that divorce became more prevalent during the time of the second caliph; thus to make divorce easier, ‘Umar allowed men to read all three pronouncements of divorce at one time.127

https://www.al-islam.org/when-power-and-piety-collide-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/chapter-9-arduous-truth

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I said the Quran is sufficient enough for any Muslim to be a MUSLIM and ( PLEASE ALLAH. )

I believe the hadith can make a Muslim a better Muslim, or a much worse Muslim (unintentionally, GOD knows each human) 

You just said while ago that the one who does not follow the prophet is kafir and now you are saying that Qur'an is sufficient enough? If Qur'an is sufficient enough then there is no need for Hadiths. If there is no need for hadiths, then there is no need for the Prophet Words to be obeyed, and if we do not obey the Prophet we go against the Holy Qur'an. Contradiction.

If we only have access to Qur'an then God will judge based by it. But it does not work when you have both of them access with you and you decide to reject one and accept one.

Umar did the same mistake, saying:

“The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Quran; so the Book of Allah is enough for us.”

What Umar did is that he disobeyed the Qur'an command itself by not following the Prophet instruction. 

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