Sexist Shia Hadith?

[Ibn Murtuz]

Salam. I am curious if someone can explain this.

 

A Shia hadith says that a wife doesn't even have 1% of the rights that a husband has on her:

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Malik ibn ‘Atiyyah from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said the following: “Abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that once a woman came to the Holy Prophet, … and asked … ‘O Messenger of Allah, who has the greatest right on a woman?’ He (the Messenger of Allah) replied, ‘Her husband has the greatest right on her.’ She then asked, ‘How is it that I do not have as much right on him as he has on me?’ He (the Messenger of Allah) said, ‘No, not even one out of one hundred.’ She then said, ‘I swear by the One who has sent you as a prophet in all truth; I will never allow any man to have a hold of my neck.’”

 

Baqir al-Majlisi: صحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (20/318)

 

In Arabic: https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/5/3/148/1

Edited October 3, 2021 by Ibn Murtuz

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

Salam. I am curious if someone can explain this.

Wasalam,

Simple explanation: our religion is sexist. 

[Haji 2003]

Would someone knowledgeable be able to comment on Hadiths etc. about obligations of children towards parents? I have a suspicion that they are weighted in favour of the mother.

 

[Abu Nur]

4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Would someone knowledgeable be able to comment on Hadiths etc. about obligations of children towards parents? I have a suspicion that they are weighted in favour of the mother.

 

Yes they are weighted in favor of the mother, but for married women it is their husband.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:31 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

‘I swear by the One who has sent you as a prophet in all truth; I will never allow any man to have a hold of my neck.’”

Salam

Quote

correct translation :At that time, the woman said: (Now that this is the case) I swear by the one who sent you rightly (I will not marry again) and I will not possess myself to any man forever!

http://hosseinalemi.blogfa.com/post/738

http://www.askquran.ir/archive/index.php/t-11994.html

 لا يَمْلِكُ رَقَبَتِي رَجُلٌ أَبَداً.

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/5/3/148/1

http://lib.eshia.ir/11021/3/438

It generally  means getting rid of responsibility  or resque from punishment  likewise releasing from hellfire.

Quote

and release me from Hellfire.

wa i`tiq raqabat¢ min alnn¡ri

وَاعْتِقْ رَقَبَتِي مِنَ ٱلنَّارِ

http://www.duas.org/zilhajj/arfday.htm

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Quote

Original text	Meaning
neck [General]	رَقَبة ٌ (رِقابٌ / رَقَباتٌ)
collum: pl. colla [Odontology]	الرِقَبَة (رِقابٌ)
monitor [Technology]	جهاز المراقبة - مرقب
censor [General]	رَقِيب: مُرَاقِبُ المَطْبُوعاتِ والأَفْلامِ والبَرَامِج
inspector; observer; supervisor [General]	مُراقِبٌ (مُراقِبونَ)

https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/رقبت/

On 10/3/2021 at 11:31 AM, Ibn Murtuz said:

; I will never allow any man to have a hold of my neck.’”

It's an expression  which means " ; I will never allow any man becomes  my supervisor . " so therefore it's just a mistake in translation from arabic to english which has not sexist meaning .

[Cool]

I am wondering whether you have known the rights of the wife in Islam? Go through Quran and Hadith to know what responsibilities men bear with respect to their wives. 

The first and worthiest condition of marriage to be fulfilled by the husband is to "keep the promise or promises he made to the wife at the time he married her." This is an order of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) according to Islamic ahadith.

He cannot order her to do anything that is against religion. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) said: "No obedience is due to creatures in disobedience of the Creator"(Amali Sheikh as-Sadoogh, P.370).

He must exercise patience and be prepared to listen to her advice in every situation. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) listened to the advice of his wives in matters ranging from the smallest to the greatest.

He must respect her and pay attention to her needs so that she will respect him and pay attention to his.

He must control his passions and act in a moderate manner especially in the context of sexual intercourse. Remember that Allah has placed between you and her "affection and mercy"(30:21), not the gratification of your every lust; and that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) advised young men to marry "because it casts down the gaze and walls up the genitals," not in order to stimulate sexual passions. The husband should habitually seek refuge in Allah before approaching his wife and say: "O Allah, ward off the satan from us and ward him off from what you have bestowed upon us in the way of children". Allah has called each spouse a garment for the other (2:187), and the purpose of garments is decency. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) further said that he who marries for the sake of decency and modesty, Allah has enjoined upon Himself to help him.

He must never ever divulge the secrets of the household and those of the married couple.

He must strive with sincerity to acquire her trust, and seek her welfare in all the actions that pertain to her.

He must treat her generously at all times. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that the best gift is that spent on one's wife.

If she works outside the house, it is praiseworthy for the husband to hire house help to relieve her from too heavy a burden.

He must avoid excessive jealousy and remember that Allah is also jealous that he himself not commit. Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said:

"Do not be excessively jealous of your wife lest evil be hurled at her on your account"(Al-Mahajjat ol-Baydhaa, Vol.4, P.104)

He must protect her honor and not place her in situations where it is compromised or belittled. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that Allah will not ever let him enter Paradise who cares little who shares his wife's privacy. This includes the husband's brother, uncle, and nephew, let alone non-related friends, neighbors, and complete strangers.

He must exercise patience and forgiveness in the case of disagreement or dispute, and not rush to divorce. The declaration of divorce is a grave matter indeed, and Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) said:

"Of permitted matters the most loathe some before Allah is divorce"(Vasaei Al-Shia, Vol.22, P.8). In another hadith the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that “divorce is so grave that because of it Allah's throne is made to shake”(IBID). He also said: "The best intercession [intervention of a third party] is that which brings back together the husband and the wife"(IBID). Womanizing -- divorce for the purpose of marrying another woman out of sexual attraction incurs Allah's curse according to the hadith: "Allah's curse is on the womanizing, divorcing man" (IBID). Finally, even in the midst of and after divorce, Allah has prescribed kindness upon the woman:

"(After pronouncing divorce) then [let there be] either an honorable retention, or a kindly release "(2:229).

He must not dwell on what he dislikes in his wife, but on what he likes.

The husband is not to stay away from his wife or keep his wife in a state of suspense, whether at home or abroad, for a protracted period of time except with her consent. Allah said:"…Yet do not turn away from one altogether, leaving her as if in a suspense. But if you are conciliatory and Godwary, Allah is indeed all-forgiving, all-merciful"(4:129). Protracted separation (at most 4 months in Shia Law) without prior or subsequent arrangement with the wife, whether the husband is away willingly or unwillingly (for example due to war, imprisonment, or illness) is sufficient grounds for her to obtain divorce from the judge.

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: "Do not beat your wife." He also said:"Do not strike your wife in the face." The expiation for striking one's slave in the face is to set him or her free on the spot. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) condemned the man who beats his wife in the day and then approaches her at night. Moreover, to beat her to the extent of inflicting serious injury is enough grounds for her to obtain divorce from the judge.

Caring for one's wife's sexual fulfillment is an obligation of religion. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) warned against rushing to gratify one's pleasure and forgetting that of one's wife. He also disliked that the husband should quickly withdraw from his wife afterwards, as it is a strain upon the wife. If she asks for intercourse, he should not refuse.

These are only some of the basic duties of the husband in Islam. 

Now as for the beautiful hadith you have shared, specifically the part:

"He (the Messenger of Allah) said, ‘No, not even one out of one hundred.’ 

قَالَ لا وَلا مِنْ كُلِّ مِائَةٍ وَاحِدَةٌ

Lets look at the rights of husband mentioned in that hadith first:

"He (the Messenger of Allah) said to her,

1) ‘She must yield to and obey him and must not oppose and disobey him.(according to a hadith this obedience is conditional i.e., no obedience is obligatory if husband commands to disobey the Creator) 

2) She must not give charity from his house without his permission

3) and must not fast optionally without his permission.

4) If she goes out of his house without his permission, the angels of skies and earth condemn her as well the angels of wrath and angels of mercy until she returns to her home.’ 

Out of these 4 rights, the first one and the 4th one are that where we can say that the husband has greater rights on her wife.

Can a husband give charity from the wealth of his wife without her consent or permission? 

Can a husband continue to fast optionally if his wife demands sexual intercourse?

Husband can go out without the wife's permission, there is no problem in it.  

Now after mentioning the key 4 rights of husband, the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) words "not even one out of hundred" can be viewed as he is stressing the greatness and importance of these clauses. It should not be taken literally, otherwise what would you say to the rights of wife mentioned earlier in this post? 

Lastly, the hadith itself contains the answer.

"She then asked, ‘O Messenger of Allah, who has the greatest right on a man?’ He (the Messenger of Allah) replied, ‘His father has the greatest right"

Yet, can a husband divorce his wife only because his father want him to divorce? Will the throne not shaken if he divorce his wife just to fulfil the wish of his father? 

These are the questions which require some further research.

Wassalam!!! 

 

[sirat-al-nur]

Salaam,

I don't think you're being genuine in your "curiosity", you seem instead to be a troublemaker trying to instigate things all the time instead of having genuine discussions by copy pasting hadiths and you have a habit of not replying based on a quick survey of a  series of topics you've opened previously.

I don't usually reply to topics like these what so ever. But I feel the need to for the future so that one doesn't come on here and get the wrong idea you are trying to insinuate.

Hadith literature is mixed with different reports, some more outlandish than others, some sexist, some racist, some wrong, and some true, some genuine, some outstanding. This is true for ALL SECTS. A hadith might be "sahih" according to the "grading of fulan and fulan" as you've mentioned before in previous topics but that means absolutely nothing to us if it goes against the Holy Qu'ran. Secondly, every mujtahid has his own standards in rijal why do you keep bringing up al-Majlisi ? We don't have Sahihs, the only Sahih book we have is the Holy Qu'ran. So there can be 1000 sahih hadiths that are sexist and go against the Qu'ran it doesn't take away anything from the Shia faith.

Do us all a favour and be curious about your own "sexist" hadith literature.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by sirat-al-nur
Not interested in starting a futile debate.

[Abu Nur]

We have similar Sunni hadiths, so basically this OP is trying to cause troubles here.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Revert1963]

20 hours ago, starlight said:

Simple explanation: our religion is sexist. 

All religions are sexist. (Maybe except modern religions such as Wicca that are designed especially to be feminist). Even non-Abrahamic religions are sexist. All the religious texts I can think of are written in a patriarchal language. The question is if this reflect that the tradition of these religions is written by men and therefore represents a "male discourse" or is it because God is inherently sexist? All religions has been subject to corruption. Even in Islam there is no way of denying that hadiths has been fabricated in the same way that the texts of other religions has been corrupted. In other words is the sexism in Islam and other religions a consequence of the corruption or is it the will of Allah?
As Muslims we must believe that the Quran is the unaltered word of God. Unfortunately there are passages in the Quran that is less favorable for women, So does that mean that Allah is at least a little bit misogynistic? Maybe but the Quran is not even close to the misogyny of certain hadith in both the Sunni and Shia tradition. So are these hadiths fabricated?

[Cool]

The criticism comes from every side.

A friend of mine once said this to me:

Why are all of the family’s expenses, even the wife’s personal expenditures a husband’s responsibility? Why should husbands work and toil while wives eat and sleep and do not even do housework? Is this not unfair to husbands?

It's not difficult to understand why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has placed these responsibilities on men. 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 10/3/2021 at 1:01 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

Salam. I am curious if someone can explain this.

 

A Shia hadith says that a wife doesn't even have 1% of the rights that a husband has on her:

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Malik ibn ‘Atiyyah from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said the following: “Abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that once a woman came to the Holy Prophet, … and asked … ‘O Messenger of Allah, who has the greatest right on a woman?’ He (the Messenger of Allah) replied, ‘Her husband has the greatest right on her.’ She then asked, ‘How is it that I do not have as much right on him as he has on me?’ He (the Messenger of Allah) said, ‘No, not even one out of one hundred.’ She then said, ‘I swear by the One who has sent you as a prophet in all truth; I will never allow any man to have a hold of my neck.’”

 

Baqir al-Majlisi: صحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (20/318)

 

In Arabic: https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/5/3/148/1

Your hadiths take it to next level as well:

Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd:

I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (ﷺ), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Messenger of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me , if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I would command women to prostrate themselves before their husbands, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah.

حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عَوْنٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، عَنْ شَرِيكٍ، عَنْ حُصَيْنٍ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ، عَنْ قَيْسِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ، قَالَ أَتَيْتُ الْحِيرَةَ فَرَأَيْتُهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ لِمَرْزُبَانٍ لَهُمْ فَقُلْتُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ أَحَقُّ أَنْ يُسْجَدَ لَهُ قَالَ فَأَتَيْتُ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقُلْتُ إِنِّي أَتَيْتُ الْحِيرَةَ فَرَأَيْتُهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ لِمَرْزُبَانٍ لَهُمْ فَأَنْتَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَحَقُّ أَنْ نَسْجُدَ لَكَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ أَرَأَيْتَ لَوْ مَرَرْتَ بِقَبْرِي أَكُنْتَ تَسْجُدُ لَهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَلاَ تَفْعَلُوا لَوْ كُنْتُ آمِرًا أَحَدًا أَنْ يَسْجُدَ لأَحَدٍ لأَمَرْتُ النِّسَاءَ أَنْ يَسْجُدْنَ لأَزْوَاجِهِنَّ لِمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنَ الْحَقِّ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

  صحيح دون جملة القبر   (الألباني)حكم   :

Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2140In-book reference : Book 12, Hadith 95English translation : Book 11, Hadith 2135

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ba sanad e sahih is known to have said: if he were to command anyone to prostrate to other, he would command women to prostate to their Husbands due to right Husband have over his wife.

Hopefully it explains our hadith to you.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[sirat-al-nur]

Salaam,

When you make a claim like "All religions are sexist." then you've already answered your question with regards to God being a misogynist, astaghfurullah.
I think you have to revisit the tafsirs of the verses you deem misogynistic by our current scholars and I think you'll find it's quite the opposite. If you are fluent in Farsi or Arabic I would recommend Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli's tafsir.

Mysognistic means to have hatred and prejudice towards women, do you really think God hates women?
I'm always dumbfounded by these claims, but I'm also open to learning why and how you could come to such a conclusion. For the Qu'ran, a good command of the Arabic language can also shed light on verses regarding men and women. As for the hadiths and their fabrication, if they go against the text of the Qu'ran then they are deemed false, and one can assume fabrication as one of the possibilities for their existence among other reasons/possibilities. Keep in mind, it's important that we have them as they help us understand the mindset of people at that time and the attempts made at distorting certain truths.

On a side note, equality between men and woman is not absolute. Men and woman are inherently different in creation and as such their functions and roles are different. when speaking of equality and fighting sexism, it's not about equating thier roles/rights completely per se so much as it is about fighting the denigration and belittling of women, as women and limiting women to their reproductive functions, and tipping the scales in favor of men because of women being deemed, incomplete in nature, lacking and/or of very little value and stripping them of rights that are God given. Woman are equal to men in terms of their humanity, dignity and honor as equal human beings and their ability to attain spiritual perfection and their ability to become mujtahidas. That doesn't mean every right belonging to men belongs to woman as well, nor that every right of a woman belongs to the man. Each have their role by virtue of their difference, physically and metaphysically.

Also I might add that not all our narrations are narrated by men, men did take narrations from women, you can also see that the main seminary in Qom is built around the shrine of a woman, Lady Fatimah al-Masumah ((عليه السلام)) and our scholars time and again say that they owe everything they learned to her, seek her for intercession and help. Take for example Mulla Sadra walking from the village of Kahak to her shrine in order to find an answer. Or even in her lifetime, the narrations regarding the followers of Imam al-Kadhim ((عليه السلام)) asking her about religious issues/verdicts and her answering them. Or certain mystics that claims that she would come to them and give them spiritual guidance/directions in terms of dhikr. I believe the seerah, the life of our Holy Prophet (sawa) and the Imams ((عليه السلام)) and our scholars ((رضي الله عنه)) show quite the opposite in terms of their treatment and recognition of women.

 

[Revert1963]

Just now, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2140In-book reference : Book 12, Hadith 95English translation : Book 11, Hadith 2135

The grade of that hatith is Dhaeef. It is a weak hadith

[Revert1963]

Just now, sirat-al-nur said:

When you make a claim like "All religions are sexist." then you've already answered your question with regards to God being a misogynist, astaghfurullah.

I wouldn't put it like that. What I am trying to do is to state the fact that all the religious texts are written in a patriarchal language. I use to belong to a polytheist religion and we had the same problems there with sayings ascribed to God. It is a challenge for the believer if God is found to condone oppressive power structures. Be it patriarchal or otherwise. I don't think that God does this. Especially because Islam emphasizes submitting to Allah only and not to any taghut. This is the core of tawheed. However Allah is not equal to his religion. Allah is perfect where as religion is corrupted to varying degree. That is why I think we have to ask our selves all the time what is from Allah and what is from corruption. And if something is from Allah but still seams unfair we have to search for an explanation. Like for instance what you mentioned your self that apparent unfairness may reflect the differences between the genders or difference in society. But I think that these are questions that we all have to reflect on.

[Muhammad A-H]

1 hour ago, Revert1963 said:

In other words is the sexism in Islam and other religions a consequence of the corruption or is it the will of Allah?
As Muslims we must believe that the Quran is the unaltered word of God. Unfortunately there are passages in the Quran that is less favorable for women, So does that mean that Allah is at least a little bit misogynistic? Maybe

You are suggesting that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) might be sexist or misogynistic towards women? Be careful about what you say about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

[Revert1963]

Just now, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

You are suggesting that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) might be sexist or misogynistic towards women? Be careful about what you say about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Well we never know, do we? I think that a lot of Muslim men would like him to be (or think he is). At least according to the definition of misogyny by some contemporary feminists.

[sirat-al-nur]

49 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

I wouldn't put it like that. What I am trying to do is to state the fact that all the religious texts are written in a patriarchal language. I use to belong to a polytheist religion and we had the same problems there with sayings ascribed to God. It is a challenge for the believer if God is found to condone oppressive power structures. Be it patriarchal or otherwise. I don't think that God does this. Especially because Islam emphasizes submitting to Allah only and not to any taghut. This is the core of tawheed. However Allah is not equal to his religion. Allah is perfect where as religion is corrupted to varying degree. That is why I think we have to ask our selves all the time what is from Allah and what is from corruption. And if something is from Allah but still seams unfair we have to search for an explanation. Like for instance what you mentioned your self that apparent unfairness may reflect the differences between the genders or difference in society. But I think that these are questions that we all have to reflect on.

Let me begin with what I agree with you on.
That these are questions we have to reflect upon, meaning what is interpretation and what is truth. If I've understood you correctly.

As for what I disagree with, is your statement that it is a "fact" that texts are written in a patriarchal language? That's a huge claim, can you provide evidence for that claim please, because its not obvious.
Why would God not condemn certain structures like patriarchy when he condemns that which is greater than patriarchy? Why would God shy away from such a thing wouldn't it negate the purpose of the book, to be a means of ascertaining truth and recognizing falsehood? I don't understand why you would assume that, if you can explain it a bit more that would be appreciated. Didn't God through the Holy Prophet (sawa) and the Imams ((عليه السلام)) break the age old backwards traditions of the Arabs at that time?

The claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not equal to his religion, and that his religion is corrupted is also a big claim that requires evidence, it sounds more like an agnostic approach/understanding of God to be fair. God reveals himself through his religion, his different attributes etc. are explained through the religious text. If we agree that the Qu'ran is an infallible, correct text from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then we can use it as means of understanding Him, when things seem "unfair" why would you automatically assume the issue is with God, why would you jump to that conclusion? Why instead wouldn't you question your own understanding of that perspective instead of settling with God seems to be a misogynist? Or your own understanding of the verses themselves when there's obviously other verses that challenge that presumption? Why wouldn't you refer to the scholars, as ordered to by God in order to understand the said verses?

If Misogyny is bad, why would God endorse it and not condemn it if the purpose of religion is to guide one to truth and perfection? That makes it imperfect and if it is imperfect doesn't that mean that it no longer can be used as a means of reaching perfection since it itself contains falsehood? You see where this is going? That is why the Prophet (sawa) set guidelines in order to protect and preserve religion and its understanding in Ghadir Khum, in which he called upon the Muslims to hold steadfast to the Qu'ran and the Ahlulbayt ((عليه السلام)) so that we don't fall into such problems by using are limited minds and understandings to try to impose our own fallible understandings falsely upon religion and God and thus corrupting them, and instead the Holy Prophet (sawa) referred us to the Imams ((عليه السلام)) who are the safe keepers and guardians of the truth so that we can rely on them and not ourselves to understand God and our religion.

Religion is a way of reaching truth, so why wouldn't you choose discovering/understanding what it means to be man or woman through the means of religion which is divinely inspired, instead of relying on understandings of gender by contemporary feminists? Not saying you should completely ignore the literature, but if it's truth you seek then the Creator (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Truth and the source of Truth and is also Just and Wise and Absolute, why would you rely on limited fallible understandings and ignore the source of Truth in your pursuit of understanding? Are feminists infallible in their conceptions of gender roles? Are they also not susceptible to corruption? How do you attain certainty that their claims/understanding of gender roles are so correct that you can impose that "correct" understanding on your readings of religious texts and conclude the possibility of misogyny from God and the "fact" that Gods text is patriarchal in nature?

Edited October 4, 2021 by sirat-al-nur

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Revert1963 said:

In other words is the sexism in Islam and other religions a consequence of the corruption or is it the will of Allah?

One thing I am sure of is that essence of Islam today isn't that what it was during the time of RasulAllah and Imam Ali(عليه السلام) . It has been tarnished beyond recognition

[Revert1963]

29 minutes ago, sirat-al-nur said:

As for what I disagree with, is your statement that it is a "fact" that texts are written in a patriarchal language? That's a huge claim, can you provide evidence for that claim please, because its not obvious.

This is not difficult to prove. Just pick up a Quran and read. It is clearly spoken to men, where as when it speaks of women it says something like "tell your women..." one example is the one below:

Quote

Sura An-Nisa 2:15
"Such of your women as commit indecency, call four of you to witness against them; and if they witness, then detain them in their houses until death takes them or God appoints for them a way."
Sura An-Nisa 2:16
"And when two of you commit indecency, punish them both; but if they repent and make amends, then suffer them to be; God turns, and is All-compassionate."

I am not even talking about the difference in judgement in the two verses, that could be debated, but the Quran is here talking to the men and about the women as if the women is not present and the ones who has to act upon this is the men. However this is not unique for the Quran. The Bible and religious texts from other religions does the same thing. So the Quran is not worse that other scriptures in this regard.

29 minutes ago, sirat-al-nur said:

The claim that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not equal to his religion, and that his religion is corrupted is also a big claim that requires evidence, it sounds more like an agnostic approach/understanding of God to be fair. God reveals himself through his religion, his different attributes etc. are explained through the religious text. If we agree that the Qu'ran is an infallible, correct text from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then...

As Muslims we must believe that the Quran is preserved in (or at least very close to) its original form, but Islam is more than the Quran. The hadith is also a part of the religion of Islam and so is the various Madhabs, Sufi Orders, Schools of Aqidah, sects and the whole social construction of the Muslim Ummah. I think it is pretty clear to most that not all hadith are sahih and a lot of them are fabrication. Furthermore Muslim scholars does not agree among them selves and have an opinion different from God. Even though God send the Quran to correct the corruption in other religions, according to the Quran, he did also send his message to the other religions before they went astray. So all religion has gone astray to some degree even though Islam had preserved his message in the Quran.

29 minutes ago, sirat-al-nur said:

If Misogyny is bad, why would God endorse it and not condemn it if the purpose of religion is to guide one to truth and perfection?

I  think that we just agreed that the Quran is the preserved message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). In the Quran he writes the following:

Quote

Sura An-Nisa 4:34
"Men are in charge of women, as Allah has made one of them superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth for the women; so virtuous women are the reverent ones, guarding behind their husbands the way Allah has decreed guarding; and the women from whom you fear disobedience, (at first) advise them and (then) do not cohabit with them, and (lastly) beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek to do injustice to them; indeed Allah is Supreme, Great."

Even though the meaning of the word misogyny can be debated, this verse is clearly not in line with modern emancipation.

29 minutes ago, sirat-al-nur said:

Are feminists infallible in their conceptions of gender roles? Are they also not susceptible to corruption? How do you attain certainty that their claims/understanding of gender roles are so correct that you can impose that "correct" understanding on your readings of religious texts and conclude the possibility of misogyny from God

No I do not say that feminists are infallible and there are a lot of feminist I do not agree with. I believe in God to the degree that I am certain about his existence and I am aware that I am nothing without him. That is why his opinion matters a lot to me. I feel though that he ought to be fair. Otherwise he would just be a tyrant.  That is why I am in a constant debate with him about such verses as Sura An-Nisa 4:34

Edited October 4, 2021 by Revert1963

[sirat-al-nur]

Salaam Sister,
Thank you for your clarification and taking the time to express your views, I’m glad and thankful we can have a civil discourse and discussion on the matter, as I genuinely am interested in understanding your take/perspective.

 

 

As for your 1^st point:

To be honest, it is difficult to prove for me, I picked up the Qu’ran and attempted to read it from your perspective and found it addressing men/women and not men in specific with the exception of verses relating to matters of judiciary and marriage.

 

As for your 2^nd point:

In reference to 2:15-16.

In 2:15, God here is speaking about a specific religious ruling regarding married women, not women in general, who commit fornication, there is no need to address women about a matter that is A: a judicial matter and B: the victim is the husband. Why men are addressed is obvious because this is a judicial matter and judicial matters are the responsibility of men and secondly, they are the victim of their wives fornication and God here is outlining what should be done when they have been wronged in such a grievous way by their wives.

In 2:16, God here is not speaking to men directly, but rather both the husband and wife, and generally outlining the religious ruling to the judicial authorities. So it’s not in line with what you’re saying about God addressing men about women.

As for your 3^rd point:
 

Yes, we do believe the Qu’ran in it’s entirety is preserved, not even close to, but completely preserved this is a matter of ijma’ of the Muslim Ummah. As for the divisions, those relate to the interpretations of religion, and the validity of hadith is tested based upon the principle that the Qu’ran is the unaltered truth and as such cross referencing the hadiths with the Qu’ran can filter out that which is true from that which is false.

As for Muslim scholars not being in agreement with God because of their differing views, and the many different Madhhabs, Sufi Orders, Schools of Aqidah, Sects and social constructions:

This is assuming that in order to have the correct view of God, everyone must have a single view and a single method and a single approach i.e the correct approach concerning all spectrums of religious matters and assuming this is what God wants. I would argue that, that isn’t completely true as all madhhabs and schools of aqida and sufi orders claim that there are Usul in Aqaid, principles of faith that one must agree on, as for the rest, be it tariqas in Irfan and sufism, or jurisprudential matters in fiqh etc. there is space for agreement and disagreement and the challenging of thoughts and ideas and development of new thoughts, philosophies, theories and approaches and with the exception of extremists in different schools, the general understanding and ruling is that all are Muslim.  Unlike Christianity for example, where the differences are in the principles of faith themselves that caused the division of Christians into different sects.
That’s why it’s a very common mistake to make the comparison between Sunni’s and Shiah with Catholics and Protestants etc. There are verses in the Qu’ran that go against this argument in which plurality of thoughts/approaches are recognized and God himself says that he could have unified people but that that division was left by the Divine. Religions went astray not in that they had differing views amongst their scholars but in that they tampered with the principles of the religion itself. Differences existed not just between scholars but between prophet’s themselves and their messages and even their rulings, but what they did not differ on were the principles of faith, or their tawhid.

As for your 4^th point:

Regarding verse 34 of Sura an-nisa, this is against modern “emancipation” of women in terms of their marital rights and that is correct, Islam does not share the modern interpretation of women’s marital rights, and instead reveals its own explanation of these rights based on Divine wisdom and understanding and the physical and metaphysical differences between men and women. Which is a firm belief that I uphold and see no issue with. Not because I am a man, but because I believe my Creator is Just and Wise and as the Creator understands creation more than they understand themselves. I don’t want to discuss this though because its obvious we have completely opposite positions on this I’d rather just listen and understand your take on things.

As for your final point:

That’s great to know! As for you feeling that God ought to be fair. I believe by observing the world and the universe and the precision involved in its creation and the laws of physics or mathematics for example, and the accuracy involved and more importantly the balance in the world so much so that one can make cars and planes and ships and measure distance, speed etc. based on this balanced scale. As such God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created everything in balance, including you, in fact you are endowed with much more in so much as you have intellect and consciousness and the ability to not only recognize but also comprehend this balance so the debate should not be, in my humble opinion, with God himself so much as it should be with ourselves trying to understand if our positions on certain matters are correct, and if they are, then why do they not align with religious understandings? Perhaps there is a way of reaching an understanding in which they both align without negating the text nor accusing it of corruption. I think the wiser stance would be to withhold accusation, and continuing of research to reach a better understanding based on principle, and that principle being the Quran being the infallible word of God.

-

Anyways, it’s certainly refreshing to be able to have a conversation like this although I don’t know if we’ll ever agree, I’m glad I am able to read your words and better understand your perspective and take on things. Sending prayers and peace your way, and prayers of guidance for me and you and all sincere believers in pursuit of Truth, by the rights of Muhammad and his Holy Household.

Edited October 5, 2021 by sirat-al-nur

[Eddie Mecca]

16 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

All religions are sexist. (Maybe except modern religions such as Wicca that are designed especially to be feminist). Even non-Abrahamic religions are sexist. All the religious texts I can think of are written in a patriarchal language.

You're taking contemporary feminist constructs and liberal definitions as a type of universal truth-value by which to establish absolute norms (and models of behavior and expression)—you're then attempting to judge Islam (and other Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions) according to that false measure—reverse engineer your thinking—judge postmodernist/feminist/liberal/humanist/LBGT morality according to Islam and not vice-versa.

[Sumerian]

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Your hadiths take it to next level as well:

Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd:

I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (ﷺ), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Messenger of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me , if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I would command women to prostrate themselves before their husbands, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah.

حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرُو بْنُ عَوْنٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ يُوسُفَ، عَنْ شَرِيكٍ، عَنْ حُصَيْنٍ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ، عَنْ قَيْسِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ، قَالَ أَتَيْتُ الْحِيرَةَ فَرَأَيْتُهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ لِمَرْزُبَانٍ لَهُمْ فَقُلْتُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ أَحَقُّ أَنْ يُسْجَدَ لَهُ قَالَ فَأَتَيْتُ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقُلْتُ إِنِّي أَتَيْتُ الْحِيرَةَ فَرَأَيْتُهُمْ يَسْجُدُونَ لِمَرْزُبَانٍ لَهُمْ فَأَنْتَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَحَقُّ أَنْ نَسْجُدَ لَكَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ أَرَأَيْتَ لَوْ مَرَرْتَ بِقَبْرِي أَكُنْتَ تَسْجُدُ لَهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَلاَ تَفْعَلُوا لَوْ كُنْتُ آمِرًا أَحَدًا أَنْ يَسْجُدَ لأَحَدٍ لأَمَرْتُ النِّسَاءَ أَنْ يَسْجُدْنَ لأَزْوَاجِهِنَّ لِمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنَ الْحَقِّ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

  صحيح دون جملة القبر   (الألباني)حكم   :

Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 2140In-book reference : Book 12, Hadith 95English translation : Book 11, Hadith 2135

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ba sanad e sahih is known to have said: if he were to command anyone to prostrate to other, he would command women to prostate to their Husbands due to right Husband have over his wife.

Hopefully it explains our hadith to you.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, we have a authentic hadith that is similar to that aswell.

al-Ḥasan b. Maḥbūb related from Mālik b. `Aṭiyyah from Sulaymān b. Khālid from Abū `Abdillāh عليه السلام. He said:

A group came to the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله and said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! We saw a people, some of whom were prostrating to others. So the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله said: Were I to order anyone to prostrate to another, I would have ordered the wife to prostrate to her husband.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/man-l-yauruh-al-faqh/right-of-husband-over-the-wife

This authentic hadith is even more explanitory;

A woman came to the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله and said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! What is the right of the husband over the wife? He said to her: She obeys him and does not disobey him, does not give anything in charity from her house except with his permission, she does not keep a voluntary fast without his permission and does not prevent him from herself even if she be on hunchback. She does not leave her house but with his permission; if she leaves without his permission, the angels of the heaven, the angels of the earth, the angels of wrath and the angels of mercy damn her until she returns to her house. So she said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! Who among the people has the greatest right on the man? He said: His parents. She said: Who among the people has the greatest right over the woman? He said: Her husband. She said: So do I have a right over him similar to what he has over me? He said: No, not [even] one in a hundred! She said: By the One Who sent you as a Prophet with the truth, no man shall ever own my neck.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/man-l-yauruh-al-faqh/right-of-husband-over-the-wife

And there is nothing wrong in any of these hadiths, as a woman has no right to disobey her husband in matters which he has a right over her, namely leaving the house and his right to pleasure.

There are also rights that a wife has over her husband, such as his obligation to provide for her sustenance.

We are a religion of rights, and people have rights over each other in this dunya. In the akhira, we will all be judged equally insha Allah.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Sumerian

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

31 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, we have a authentic hadith that is similar to that aswell.

al-Ḥasan b. Maḥbūb related from Mālik b. `Aṭiyyah from Sulaymān b. Khālid from Abū `Abdillāh عليه السلام. He said:

A group came to the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله and said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! We saw a people, some of whom were prostrating to others. So the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله said: Were I to order anyone to prostrate to another, I would have ordered the wife to prostrate to her husband.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/man-l-yauruh-al-faqh/right-of-husband-over-the-wife

This authentic hadith is even more explanitory;

A woman came to the Messenger of Allāh صلى الله عليه واله and said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! What is the right of the husband over the wife? He said to her: She obeys him and does not disobey him, does not give anything in charity from her house except with his permission, she does not keep a voluntary fast without his permission and does not prevent him from herself even if she be on hunchback. She does not leave her house but with his permission; if she leaves without his permission, the angels of the heaven, the angels of the earth, the angels of wrath and the angels of mercy damn her until she returns to her house. So she said: O’ Messenger of Allāh! Who among the people has the greatest right on the man? He said: His parents. She said: Who among the people has the greatest right over the woman? He said: Her husband. She said: So do I have a right over him similar to what he has over me? He said: No, not [even] one in a hundred! She said: By the One Who sent you as a Prophet with the truth, no man shall ever own my neck.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/man-l-yauruh-al-faqh/right-of-husband-over-the-wife

And there is nothing wrong in any of these hadiths, as a woman has no right to disobey her husband in matters which he has a right over her, namely leaving the house and his right to pleasure.

There are also rights that a wife has over her husband, such as his obligation to provide for her sustenance.

We are a religion of rights, and people have rights over each other in this dunya. In the akhira, we will all be judged equally insha Allah.

I have no issues with these hadith. I showed him from his source with saheeh chain just so he may know he have hadith that explain how much important obeying husband his amd what are rights of a wife on husband as compared to what husband has over her

[sirat-al-nur]

Salaam,
Taking into account the last two posts.
It is important to point out that there are other views belonging to fuqaha' who dismiss these hadiths completely for several reasons, among them that they contradict the Qu'ran. (not reffering to Sayyed Kamal al-Haydari here.)

So there is space for discussion on the matter, one can't absolutely say that it is a right or isn't, that goes back to your Marja' and his ijtihad. One also cannot deny that it is a prevalent view, that matters such as leaving the house and sexual obligation are among the rights of the husband. I have seen views that allow women to leave without her husbands permission and also those that say that both sexual obligations and leaving the house go both ways, meaning the wife has a right to sexual pleasure and to request it with consequences if denied and to forbid the husband from leaving the house.

Anyways, it isn't a matter I'm not particularly interested in discussing rather I'm just pointing it out for anyone who is curious to see what scholarly positions exist on the subjects and do further research.

I don't have a personal opinion on the matter.

Edited October 5, 2021 by sirat-al-nur

[Cool]

I think there should be no problem for anyone, whether male or female to accept what is mentioned in Quran and what is explained by Imams. 

وَلَا تَتَمَنَّوْا مَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بِهِ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ ۚ لِلرِّجَالِ نَصِيبٌ مِمَّا اكْتَسَبُوا ۖ وَلِلنِّسَاءِ نَصِيبٌ مِمَّا اكْتَسَبْنَ ۚ وَاسْأَلُوا اللَّهَ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمًا {32}

[Shakir 4:32] And do not covet that by which Allah has made some of you excel others; men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things.
[Yusufali 4:32] And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.

الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ

4:34

وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ 

2:228

Neither a believing man nor woman can reject these verses. I see that there are very few people who truly want to understand these points. 

So men are at least "a degree" higher than women. Then the men held responsible according to their capacities. Justice being done with the women by giving the responsibilities according to the burden they own. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Cool

[Cool]

13 hours ago, Cool said:

men are at least "a degree" higher than women

 

وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ

So what this "a digree higher" mean here? 

Now even if men are degree higher, they need to obey & respect their mothers. So men, in this specific relation, have been commanded to obey women. They were commanded:

وَاخْفِضْ لَهُمَا جَنَاحَ الذُّلِّ

(And make yourself submissively gentle to them)

The only relationship where people tend to argue, is the husband-wife relationship. 

What I believe is that the greater the God makes someone responsible by bestowing His فضل, the more that person should become humble. So my rights as a husband are my rights, I even have the right to withdraw some of my rights by authorizing my wife to go out of home without my permission, to spend in charity from my wealth without my permission etc. What we are missing in these sort of discussions is the fact that it is "we" between whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has placed مودة و رحمة. 

Wassalam!!

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, sirat-al-nur said:

Salaam,
Taking into account the last two posts.
It is important to point out that there are other views belonging to fuqaha' who dismiss these hadiths completely for several reasons, among them that they contradict the Qu'ran. (not reffering to Sayyed Kamal al-Haydari here.)

So there is space for discussion on the matter, one can't absolutely say that it is a right or isn't, that goes back to your Marja' and his ijtihad. One also cannot deny that it is a prevalent view, that matters such as leaving the house and sexual obligation are among the rights of the husband. I have seen views that allow women to leave without her husbands permission and also those that say that both sexual obligations and leaving the house go both ways, meaning the wife has a right to sexual pleasure and to request it with consequences if denied and to forbid the husband from leaving the house.

Anyways, it isn't a matter I'm not particularly interested in discussing rather I'm just pointing it out for anyone who is curious to see what scholarly positions exist on the subjects and do further research.

I don't have a personal opinion on the matter.

They don't contradict the Qur'an because they are not mean to view in such a manner it somehow lows the woman.

All of these rights of man over woman are meant to do in goodness and to make sure that the woman have happiness and good faith and evilness can not apply to these rights. All these rights always need to be applied to Islamic values and laws.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Abu Nur

[sirat-al-nur]

1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

They don't contradict the Qur'an because they are not mean to view in such a matter it somehow lows the woman.

All of these rights of man over woman are meant to do in goodness and to make sure that the woman have happiness and good faith and evilness can not apply to these rights. All these rights always need to be applied to Islamic values and laws.

Salaam dear brother,

I never denied husband having rights over their wives. Nor the verses that deal them.

All I said is it is a fact that different fuqaha' have views that say that these narrations do belittle women and go against the Qu'ran. If you disagree with them, that's fine, to each his own. I only mentioned it so that those who haven't come to terms or are genuinely curious and are interested in doing some research on the topic can know that such views do exist and are being taught and debated in the scholarly realm and the hawzeh.

There is nothing wrong with you personally agreeing or disagreeing is what I'm trying to say. I said I don't have an opinion on the matter, I don't have the "absolute truth" in my pocket to make brave claims like you or others that this is absolutely right or this is absolutely wrong this is what Islam says and this is what Islam doesn't say. This does contradict the Qu'ran and this doesn't. Nor do I have certainty in the fact that these hadiths are genuinely the words of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or the Imams ((عليه السلام)). I simply am not willing to attribute specific narrations to God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or the Ma'sumeen ((عليه السلام)) and be held accountable on the day of judgement, as it is a major sin to attribute falsehood to God or the Ma'sumeen, it may be true and it may be false I'll leave it to the ulamaa' and do ihtiyat in these matters unless I can see scholarly evidence to prove otherwise. I am also not willing to issue fatwa's on right and wrong based on my own opinion, or force the opinion of my Marjaa on others and present it as the "truth".