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In the Name of God بسم الله

Does the past exist?

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8 hours ago, notme said:

No, of course it doesn't. Neither does the future. I'm not even certain now does exist. What is time anyway?

Is time a real thing, or just a concept that we use to organize our thoughts? If all that has been or ever will be has already been created, maybe time is just the way we perceive, 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, notme said:

Is time a real thing, or just a concept that we use to organize our thoughts? If all that has been or ever will be has already been created, maybe time is just the way we perceive, 

Ah that makes sense. Thank you.

So perhaps things that we have in our memory all happened at once? Perhaps is one eternal action of Kun Faya Kūn? And perhaps because “we” are the waves of Consciousness or Being, we perceive things in the sense of before / after, where our finite mind is filtering eternity that Is.

Allahu A’lam.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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On 10/2/2021 at 12:41 PM, 313_Waiter said:

:salam:
If so, where is the proof? We have never been in the past. We’ve always been in the “now”.

Please share your thoughts.

the proof of the past as the Quran says is the remnants of their destroyed citizens and civilzations

egyptian pyramids

pompei ash bodied

greek monumnets

even arabian babylonian buildings

aztec pyramids

aboriginal cave paintings

literally every country has something to show for a past

its very simple

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On 10/2/2021 at 8:11 AM, 313_Waiter said:

:salam:
If so, where is the proof? We have never been in the past. We’ve always been in the “now”.

Please share your thoughts.

Your only proof that past exist is your own memory. A very uncertain proof it is.
Surely, the memory of an event cannot pass for the event itself. Nor can the anticipation. There is something exceptional, unique, about the present event, which the previous, or the coming do not have.  

There is nothing peculiar in the present event to make it different from the past and future. For a moment the past was actual and the future will become so. What makes the present so different? 
Obviously, my presence. I am real for I am always now, in the present, and what is with me now shares in my reality. The past is in memory, the future -- in imagination.

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1 hour ago, Shahrukh K said:

Obviously, my presence. I am real for I am always now, in the present, and what is with me now shares in my reality

Do you believe the past has any reality relative to the real (that is “I”)?

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On 10/2/2021 at 6:31 AM, notme said:

Is time a real thing, or just a concept that we use to organize our thoughts? If all that has been or ever will be has already been created, maybe time is just the way we perceive, 

Assaalama alaykum,  I think you are dabbling in abstract philosophy :)

In this World we are bound by Time and Death - In the Hereafter, there will be no Time and Death. Allah Almighty Alone is Timeless and Deathless!

I swear by the time; Most surely man is in loss; Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience. al Asr (The Time)

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On 10/2/2021 at 7:41 AM, 313_Waiter said:

:salam:
If so, where is the proof? We have never been in the past. We’ve always been in the “now”.

Please share your thoughts.

What is meant by exist here? The past obviously can only be preserved. If it exist, it would not be the past. 

As an evidence, I can say that past is preserved in our memories. Our deeds are preserved in the record of our deeds. 

As for Time, it can be reversed, a Sun which is about to set can be brought back on top of our heads. A dead who becomes dust can be brought back to life and can be raised from graves. We have all these possibilities in our religious text. 

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

In the Hereafter, there will be no Time 

What is the evidence of this claim? 

Are there no day & night concept in jannah? 

مُتَّكِئِينَ فِيهَا عَلَى الْأَرَائِكِ ۖ لَا يَرَوْنَ فِيهَا شَمْسًا وَلَا زَمْهَرِيرًا

Yusufaliلَا 76:13] Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold.

وَدَانِيَةً عَلَيْهِمْ ظِلَالُهَا وَذُلِّلَتْ قُطُوفُهَا تَذْلِيلًا 

Yusufali 76:14] And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility.

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Another evidence is our video/audio recordings. We can see the drama/movie recorded 50-100 year back. We can see the videos of WW-II, the destruction of atomic bomb exploded on Nagasaki & Hiroshima etc. But the these are recorded historical events which do not exist at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

What is the evidence of this claim? 

Are there no day & night concept in jannah? 

مُتَّكِئِينَ فِيهَا عَلَى الْأَرَائِكِ ۖ لَا يَرَوْنَ فِيهَا شَمْسًا وَلَا زَمْهَرِيرًا

Yusufaliلَا 76:13] Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold.

وَدَانِيَةً عَلَيْهِمْ ظِلَالُهَا وَذُلِّلَتْ قُطُوفُهَا تَذْلِيلًا 

Yusufali 76:14] And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility.

Assalama alaykum

I meant the concept of Time will not be there.  This is beyond human comprehension in this world.  There, no one will be getting OLD – The Concept of passing of the Time will not be there. 

In this World we say “Time is up” – In the Hereafter there is “No time up” for denizens of Paradise and Hell

76:13 Can also be interpreted as weather being constantly pleasant and comfortable. Not unbearably hot or Cold.
76:14 Can also the interpreted as the Shades being pleasant to sit under – doesn’t mean that the Sun was hot.

Life in Hereafter is incomparable to the life in this World.

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

There, no one will be getting OLD

Salamun Alaikum Brother!!

So we can say that there will be no "process of ageing" in heaven. Time doesn't make us old, its the process within us that makes us old.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

this World we say “Time is up” – In the Hereafter there is “No time up” for denizens of Paradise and Hell

So we can say that there is no death in hereafter. Death is not related with time, it is the qadr as mentioned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Quran:

نحن قدرنا بينكم الموت

"We have decreed death among you" (Waqiah)

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

76:13 Can also be interpreted as weather being constantly pleasant and comfortable. Not unbearably hot or Cold.

As long as there is a source of heat, i.e., star like our Sun, and as long as the evidence of movement is present in 76:14, producing the ظلال (shadow or shades), how can we say that there would be no concept of time? 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Life in Hereafter is incomparable to the life in this World.

Agreed!! But again does that negates the existence of time?

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ


ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

 

 

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) says,

The life of man does not amount to more than an instant. What is passed is now non-existent, you do not fell its pleasure or pain. As for what is yet to come, you do not know what it is. The true and precious capitals of your life are those few instants you presently enjoy. Master then, your soul, and strive to redeem yourself and attain salvation, be steadfast in enduring the rigor of worshipping Allah and obeying His commandments, and preserve yourself from the pollution of sin and disobedience to Allah” (al Kafi).

 

 

 

Allah has created everything to have decree, change, motion and direction. Allahs name Rabb, is the one who take a thing from one stage to another. الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

All praises are to Allah, Lord of the Worlds. Allah is Rabb, رَبِّ that means Lord,

and رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ , means Lord of the worlds. This is in plural form. Many worlds where Angels, Jinns and humans can live from many stages from another after another. Before Adam (عليه السلام) and Huwwa (عليه السلام) where sended to this Dunya where The Sun and The Moon are there where different stages that pre-existed the present event of this world. Angels write everything to tablets that will save all deeds of humans and jinns. Deeds will be recorded. Thise deeds will be presented in Just, Noble way to those persons who have repended with the repentance and Allah has accepted their deeds and thise deeds that has not been repented with the repentance has not been forgiven will be judged according to balance. Those whom have their balance heavier in wrongs and misguidance they will be punished accordinly to level of decree in permanent hellfire and those who have good deeds heavier and truth they will be rewarded with multitudes of gratitudes of goodness in eternal paradise.

 

The destiny has been unknow for to know except in cases when Allah wills.

 

اللَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ ۚ لَا تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلَا نَوْمٌ ۚ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۗ مَنْ ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ ۚ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ ۖ وَلَا يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلَّا بِمَا شَاءَ ۚ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ ۖ وَلَا يَئُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا ۚ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ

Surat Al-Baqara : 255

 

سورة البقرة : ٢٥٥

Allah—there is no god except Him—is the Living One, the All-sustainer. Neither drowsiness befalls Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that may intercede with Him except with His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not comprehend anything of His knowledge except what He wishes. His seat embraces the heavens and the earth and He is not wearied by their preservation, and He is the All-exalted, the All-supreme.

 

Allah is Ever-living الْحَيُّ, and Ever-being الْقَيُّومُ and Allah has no need. The one who has needs and desires can only be striven astray in to the ignorance and actions without knowledge to create michief. Ever-living, Ever-Being is The unlimited knower, الْعَلِيُّ, as its discriped to be All-knowing without any relationships, stages, inward or outward, division or separation. All-Knowing, Ever-Living, Ever-Being is One.

 

Allah is Lord of the Worlds. Allah says in the Holy Quran that Allah withnesses the Oneness of Allah, and so does Angels and those who have knowledge and hold firmly in justice. Allah is Magnificient, Wise.

Surat al-Imraan 3, Ayatullah 18.

 


شَهِدَ اللَّهُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ وَأُولُو الْعِلْمِ قَائِمًا بِالْقِسْطِ ۚ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

 

 

Allah has ordered to do good and forbid evil. This is to main the decree of Allah with deeds of actions and rethorics. Those who do have knowledge and do justice will withness the witness of Allah and the Allahs Onenesses withness as well as the witness of the Angels as they do nothing but what Allah has commanded them to do. Allah is wise, الْحَكِيمُ, meaning nothing that The Wise has created is in unordinary place and everything glorifies the glory of the Wise, Magnificent.الْعَزِيزُ, creator with the decree and balance in harmony. The balance and decree are limited and comes with direction, motion and change as mentioned at the beginning. Thise are the qualities that what time means. When the eye catch a view it can only observe the nature of change. The mind can discripe the event what it sees and what passes by from one stage to another. This interval of change is time. It can discripe the relationsips of how the event came to its stage and conclude the why´s of the paths of the event that make stage to change to another accordingly to a decree and balance.

 

لِلَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا فِيهِنَّ ۚ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

Surat Al-Maaida : 120

 

سورة المائدة : ١٢٠

Allah is the Rabb, the one who takes creation from stage to stage. Surat al-Maaida 5, ayatullah 120, Allah clears the doupt about the Soverenity that Allah is the one to whom belongs alone the kingdom of heavens and the earth and whatever there is in them. A thing is , شَيْءٍ, and , قَدِيرٌ, has roots meanings for the decree, power and faith. The كُلِّ has root in the english words fatigue and all, and all unlimitedly. The absolute sovernity of Allah in every thing as nothing can hold back the power of Allah and everything obeys Allah according to decree. Allah holds in power everything. To Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever there is in them, and He has power over all things.

 

Allah does not do injustice to creation when it is directed in motion and changes and everything that Allah does is in power hold by Allah. The deeds of those that are in trials of this life where The Sun and The Moon show show intervals and remind that this world is not eternal and everything in it will perish in change and motion. Nothing here is permanent and all is to decay and fade according to decree. The deeds and tablets and records, and the souls will be passed on the hearafter to day of judgement and this is also another change that has been destinied according to decree. Allah will raise everything from graves and gather all creation that was trialed to be judged according to decree.

 

Those who will get paradise will experience observe change, as Allah is Rabb, and change and guidance come with the direction and motion in deeds and rethorics. And those who will get the hellfire will also experience the change, as Allah is Rabb, and their skinn will grow and burn in great punishment everytime again when it has burned.

 

 

Surat al-Waaqia 56, ayatullah 25-26
لَا يَسْمَعُونَ فِيهَا لَغْوًا وَلَا تَأْثِيمًا

Surat Al-Waaqia : 25

 

سورة الواقعة : ٢٥

They will not hear therein any vain talk or sinful speech,

 

 


إِلَّا قِيلًا سَلَامًا سَلَامًا

Surat Al-Waaqia : 26

 

سورة الواقعة : ٢٦

but only the watchword, ‘Peace!’ ‘Peace!’

 

 

Surat ad-Dukhaan 44, ayatullah 43-59

إِنَّ شَجَرَتَ الزَّقُّومِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 43

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٣

Indeed the tree of Zaqqum

 


طَعَامُ الْأَثِيمِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 44

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٤

will be the food of the sinful.

 


كَالْمُهْلِ يَغْلِي فِي الْبُطُونِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 45

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٥

Like molten copper it will boil in their bellies,

 

كَغَلْيِ الْحَمِيمِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 46

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٦

seething like boiling water.

 


خُذُوهُ فَاعْتِلُوهُ إِلَىٰ سَوَاءِ الْجَحِيمِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 47

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٧

[The keepers of hell will be told,] ‘Seize him and drag him to the middle of hell,


ثُمَّ صُبُّوا فَوْقَ رَأْسِهِ مِنْ عَذَابِ الْحَمِيمِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 48

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٨

then pour over his head boiling water as punishment,

 

ذُقْ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْكَرِيمُ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 49

 

سورة الدخان : ٤٩

[and tell them,] “Taste this! Indeed you are the [self-styled] mighty and noble!

 


إِنَّ هَٰذَا مَا كُنْتُمْ بِهِ تَمْتَرُونَ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 50

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٠

This is what you used to doubt!’

 


إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 51

 

سورة الدخان : ٥١

Indeed the Godwary will be in a safe place,

 

فِي جَنَّاتٍ وَعُيُونٍ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 52

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٢

amid gardens and springs,

 

يَلْبَسُونَ مِنْ سُنْدُسٍ وَإِسْتَبْرَقٍ مُتَقَابِلِينَ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 53

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٣

dressed in fine silk and brocade, sitting face to face.

 


كَذَٰلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُمْ بِحُورٍ عِينٍ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 54

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٤

So shall it be, and We shall wed them to black-eyed houris.

 

يَدْعُونَ فِيهَا بِكُلِّ فَاكِهَةٍ آمِنِينَ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 55

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٥

Secure [from any kind of harm,] there they will call for every kind of fruit [they wish].

 

لَا يَذُوقُونَ فِيهَا الْمَوْتَ إِلَّا الْمَوْتَةَ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَوَقَاهُمْ عَذَابَ الْجَحِيمِ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 56

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٦

Other than the first death, they will not taste death therein, and He will save them from the punishment of hell

 

فَضْلًا مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 57

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٧

a grace from your Lord. That is the great success.

 

فَإِنَّمَا يَسَّرْنَاهُ بِلِسَانِكَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 58

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٨

Indeed We have made it simple in your language, so that they may take admonition.

 

فَارْتَقِبْ إِنَّهُمْ مُرْتَقِبُونَ

Surat Ad-Dukhaan : 59

 

سورة الدخان : ٥٩

So wait! They [too] are waiting.

 

 

Abdullah ibne Abbas relates that one day the dwellers of paradise will see a light shining more than usual. They will wonder and say “ O, Lord! You had promised that in paradise there will be no sun light or intense cold, what has happened today? Has the sun risen”? A voice will come, “This is not sunlight, but the Commander of the faithful Ali ((عليه السلام).) and the Lady of light Hazrat Zahra ((عليه السلام).) who are having a graceful talk and are laughing, and this light has emerged from their teeth which has overpowered the light of paradise.”

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On 10/2/2021 at 3:41 AM, 313_Waiter said:

:salam:
If so, where is the proof? We have never been in the past. We’ve always been in the “now”.

Please share your thoughts.

You lived in your past. Proof? Your collective memory!  Every second you live, you are stepping from your past to your “NOW”!  Without your PAST you cannot have your NOW”!
Would we not be judged on our Past?  What beliefs we had? How we lived our lives? How we earned our livelihood? How it we spent it? How have we conducted ourselves and dealt with people?

Aren’t kiraman katibin ('honourable scribes') recording every deed of ours.  Once recorded, that’s our past. So, past is there and recorded, even those things which have long forgotten.  Our past will be presented to us. On this past record of ours we will be judged. So, our future depends on our past.

Your ‘Now’ is just a fleeting moment where the NOW turns to the PAST!

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Cool said:

What is the evidence of this claim? 

Are there no day & night concept in jannah? 

مُتَّكِئِينَ فِيهَا عَلَى الْأَرَائِكِ ۖ لَا يَرَوْنَ فِيهَا شَمْسًا وَلَا زَمْهَرِيرًا

Yusufaliلَا 76:13] Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold.

وَدَانِيَةً عَلَيْهِمْ ظِلَالُهَا وَذُلِّلَتْ قُطُوفُهَا تَذْلِيلًا 

Yusufali 76:14] And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there, will hang low in humility.

Good question. For every creation there is always time and space, the only one who does not have time and is not in location is God. If we say we are timeless or outside of time then we attribute ourselves to God attribute.

God will make sure that in every moment of time in Jannah we will have life and death with not over come us and we will not age.

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 10/4/2021 at 10:48 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Do you believe the past has any reality relative to the real (that is “I”)?

What is the language of understanding/knowing ?
Sometimes it happens to me that i know something but unable to express it in words.
That means i do not need words or language to understand. I only need the words when I want to share what i know.

I will try my best to answer the question.
More i think i am convinced that the life is a story and "i am" living that story moment by moment. When the (present) moment  comes before me it became alive and then that moment passed, like a moving frame of the movie when it comes before the light i can see it on the screen.
It is only i am that converts those lifeless words or frame of movie into life.
 
 

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Allah created everything with Truth and bounded bounties and decree to evertyhing in a way that the bounties have limitations where the Truth is observed and testified. Decree and measure is the balance of justice that ties what is beneficial and what causes harm. This beneficial has value that tell for the one who does not exceed the limits the harm of the exceeding. The decree and measure are bounded to matter where our livehood, rethorics, obligatory acts, purity, compensation, marriage law and pure monoteism are. It has all matters that are part of everyday life to clear confusion and guide muslims to truthful life, and all matters that are considered the heavenly matter, the unseen dwellers of jinn world, the higher spirits that can open unseen for the ones that Allah wills. Intellect testifies the Truth and will not be corrupted by falsehood when believer acts according the decree and measure created by Allah to fitra of that creation and carefully take cares ones duties in the presence of All-Mighty, All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

Commander of the faithfull, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) has said: "The sciences are in three groups: Science of the religions decrees, science of the medical cure and the science of the clear speech." 

The creation is made with Haq. 

Do good and forbid evil. And Allah will guide you to understanding.

Commander of the faithfull, Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) said: "155- As for those who abstain from receiving the worldly pleasures, show steadfastness against the worldly humiliation, and do not compete with others on the worldly reputation, Allah will guide them without the mediation of anybody, instruct them directly, fix wisdom in their hearts, and make them speak of wisdom."

 

https://balaghah.net/old/nahj-htm/eng/id/article/imam-ali/0004.htm

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