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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Pre-Existence of Jesus

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

How will Iesous judge John's parents' blameless obedience to his laws on judgement day? How will he account for the good works of the believers that will earn them paradise as per his words in the NT? https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363722

As to what this Christian apologist is trying to imply in regards to the scales of justice, those interested can go there https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/05/cira-international-go-after-quran.html

You avoided my question and tried to change the conversation :)

Where is the verse saying that God puts our good works and sins in a balance to decide if we go to heaven or hell.

Show me just 1 verse from torah and tanach so I can know that muslims will have a way out of hell.  

All that site you gave me is just quranic verses lol :titanic:

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. None other than Christians have the arrogance and self-righteousness to claim "salvation" while in this life. And based on what? The promise of a God who murdered his innocent son.  Muslims on the other hand base their salvation on trust of a just God. He will look at their deeds and the sincerity behind them, then reward them with a gracious reward far surpassing the merit of the best of their deeds.

Ok you are being truthful I respect that.

It's not arrogance it's knowledge and accepting God's plan of salvation for our life. 

Muslims are lost they believe in a prophet who claims to be of God yet does not even know his eternal destiny. He could be rotting in hell right now we don't know.

Yet Yeshua explained to us heavenly things and salvation and he put a stamp on it by rising from the dead.

By doing that he showed that he was telling the truth has eternal life and is the one that can give us eternal life by believing in him which he spoke about. 

Meanwhile you believe in a man with no knowledge of his eternity who gives you no assurance, lies in a grave right now waiting for Judgement day and had a made belief balance not taught in torah.

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11 hours ago, Nad_M said:

hen challenged by the Pharisees to display a miracle, Iesous promised them his resurrection after being dead for 3 days Matt12:39. Once he is supposedly resurrected, he doesnt appear to those who specifically asked him for the sign and to whom he said he will reappear. Instead, Iesous' followers come to the Pharisees, claiming that the sign had occured. Neither is there any claim that the risen Iesous ever appeared to anyone but believers. There is only the word of a mere handful of "witnesses" whose stories vary from person to person, and we dont even know who transmitted those biased accounts until they were eventually put to writing by scribes whom nobody knows.

It was a common knowledge that the body of Yeshua was never found by the Jews. They knew he resurrected as scriptures state they bribed the Romans to say that the disciples took the body at night because they could not explain the disappearance.

So he fulfilled what he told them that in three days he would rise again.

Your not going to find a million outside evidence for things in the bible just like you don't find many evidence of miracles or events written in torah and tanach. Those where different times filled with destruction and wars and lost accounts.

Just like you can't find outside source of this things in the quran like Mohammad splitting the moon.

About the scribe issue who knows if people wrote in the quran anyone can claim corruption. It's a silly muslim belief without any evidence or pre-corrupted text to back up your claim.

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Please explain the necessity of the Lord's prayer in light of the notion that "only blood atones".

Also don't forget to explain why none of the apostles stress that notion in their speeches recorded in Acts.

The lords prayer are for those that believe in Yeshuas sacrifice :confused: We have to forgive others as well as confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness, which happens through Yeshuas blood.

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11 hours ago, Nad_M said:

he poor are expected to bring an animal offering along with flour?

Flour is not mixed with the previous offering of another person, nothing indicates it was. The quote from Lev5 confirms it. Blood is sprinkled on the side, the rest drained at its base. Flour is placed on top. Nowhere do we see that the blood is placed where sin offerings are placed. The pieces of the animal offering placed on top have had their life blood drained long ago. Lev1:9 even insists these parts be washed first.

At no point is there any requirement for the meal offering (flour here) be mixed with blood on top of the altar. How will it even burn if it is soaked with blood?

The following post explains all this, as well as provides a list of question that still need addressing, negating the validity of the Christian notion of atonement https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363733

 

The bible says the flour is upon or over the altar meaning it was mixed with the blood because the blood of the animals was put on the sides and on the base of the altar AS WELL AS THE FINE FLOUR put on the ALTAR.

The hebrew word for base is Yesod or סוֹד which means the FOUNDATION

So the verse says the blood is drained in the foundation of the altar

 The meat offering is not a sin offering so doesn't count.

The bible show the fine flour for a SIN OFFERING is placed upon the altar. The altar is where the sin offerings blood is placed I showed you this already.

 

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

I have been studying the subject and here is a good explanation by a jew

Great. Please give a specific example of evil created by Iesous. No amount of sophistry can escape the explicit statement of the HB.

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

None of those words mean sinless

Sure. So one can be blameless in God's sight all the while being sinful and deserving hellfire?

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

Meaning there was a time destined for this prophecy to be fulfilled.

Yes. Did Iesous act in a way that would deliberately bring about his death?

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

This is Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

Am I missing something ? Where does this say ability to perform God's command without doing it to perfection?

He does not deal harshly. Neither in terms of judgement nor righteousness. The Christian paradigm in the other hand is that God set a standard of righteousness impossible to attain and has thus condemned mankind to hell. 

 

8 hours ago, tek91 said:

As to 1:5 his sons were sinners and he would offer BLOOD sacrifice for their sins

His offering was "Perhaps" they might sin. How does that fit even closely what Iesous is supposed to have accomplished? And nobody denies blood is a valid sin offering, if certain conditions are met. None of which were fulfilled in Iesous' crucifixion. See this previous post https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363651

Those interested can further see this explanation, detailing why Iesous' sacrifice is invalide per Jewish law https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/03/cira-international-discuss-jewish-law.html?m=1

What is discussed and repeatedly proven by now, is that besides blood, many avenues exist in the HB to obtain forgiveness of sins. Here is a previous post demonstrating the matter and which the Christian apologist will not and cannot address https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363733

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

if you die without accepting the Lamb of God.

Had it been the "goat of God" it would have been more in line with HB laws. The paschal lamb was a thanksgiving offering, not a sin offering, contrary to what the NT writers thought. See this previous post https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363582

 

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

Yet Yeshua explained to us heavenly things and salvation and he put a stamp on it by rising from the dead.

Yes. It has already been established that Christians trust in a God that murders his innocent son to cleanse those Christians from a sinful nature he purposefully burdened them with.

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

he fulfilled what he told them that in three days he would rise again

He did not appear resurrected to those very ones he made the promise to.

 

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

The lords prayer are for those that believe in Yeshuas sacrifice

Where does Iesous state that this prayer is only for such people?

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7 hours ago, tek91 said:

The bible show the fine flour for a SIN OFFERING is placed upon the altar.

Sure. Flour on top. Blood sprinkled on the sides and the base of the altar. Animal meat placed on top was washed prior.

At no point does flour mix with blood

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Great. Please give a specific example of evil created by Iesous. No amount of sophistry can escape the explicit statement of the HB.

Yeshua never commited any evil he lived a sinless life he was tempted by satan and never sinned.

All the HB says is that good and evil are creations and they are put there for a choice. We can choose to do good or evil to obey or to sin and there are consequences for our actions.

This shows that God is in full control it doesn't mean that God is evil or that God does evil thing.

God hates evil and hates murder and rape and sin and wants us to do what is right and reject evil.

You say people create evil that is illogical because people have no power to create good or evil. Those two things are a choice given to us.

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. So one can be blameless in God's sight all the while being sinful and deserving hellfire?

Yes if the blameless people in the Torah and NT did not give animal sacrifices or have faith in Yeshua and his blood. They will go to hell.

Those blameless people like Job participated in the Leviticus blood sacrifices daily under the law and in the NT by the final sacrifice of Yeshua.

God's Lamb

 

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Yes. Did Iesous act in a way that would deliberately bring about his death?

No Yeshua did his Fathers business he knew his purpose and what would happen to him.

Think of it like a book God already has the book written and knows everything that will happen yet the story still happens.

Likewise Yeshua just did his purpose and knew that it was going to lead to his death as he knew that was his cross to bear and that he had to drink of the cup. (He expressed what was going to happen to him many times) 

It was his destiny the reason he came down from heaven.

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

He does not deal harshly. Neither in terms of judgement nor righteousness. The Christian paradigm in the other hand is that God set a standard of righteousness impossible to attain and has thus condemned mankind to hell. 

He does not deal harshly because he made blood atonement for us. 

What I try to tell you is that it's impossible to be sinless to be acceptable to God without our sins being atoned through blood which is taught throughout the OT and NT. No person in history can live out a sinless life (Except Yeshua)

God always gave a substitude in the torah by blood sacrifices and in the gospel by the Lamb of God  

blood for blood 

life for life

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

He does not deal harshly. Neither in terms of judgement nor righteousness. The Christian paradigm in the other hand is that God set a standard of righteousness impossible to attain and has thus condemned mankind to hell. 

 

His offering was "Perhaps" they might sin. How does that fit even closely what Iesous is supposed to have accomplished? And nobody denies blood is a valid sin offering, if certain conditions are met. None of which were fulfilled in Iesous' crucifixion. See this previous post https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363651

Those interested can further see this explanation, detailing why Iesous' sacrifice is invalide per Jewish law https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/03/cira-international-discuss-jewish-law.html?m=1

What is discussed and repeatedly proven by now, is that besides blood, many avenues exist in the HB to obtain forgiveness of sins. Here is a previous post demonstrating the matter and which the Christian apologist will not and cannot address https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363733

You have yet to show a clear verse outlining another way.

You have also yet to show that sins and good deeds are put in some balance o decide who goes to heaven and hell.

:brucelee:

I am still waiting for one clear verse

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Had it been the "goat of God" it would have been more in line with HB laws. The paschal lamb was a thanksgiving offering, not a sin offering, contrary to what the NT writers thought. See this previous

The type of animal didn't matter

Read Leviticus Lambs were offered for sin

Also what did Abraham prophecy to his son? When his son asked where is the lamb for the burnt offering. 

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. 

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Yes. It has already been established that Christians trust in a God that murders his innocent son to cleanse those Christians from a sinful nature he purposefully burdened them with.

God did not murder his Son he gave his son as a blood sacrifice for Remission of sins.

To pay the penalty that we deserve

God did that out of love to save you and me and make a way for us to have a relationship with him.

And you are spitting at what he did.

Muhammad is dead in the grave and could not offer you eternal life or guarantee you heaven.

He claimed to be a man of God and yet he did not even know if he was good enough to make it to heaven in Judgement Day.

Yeshua conquered death and promises us eternal life and bled and died for our sin and reconciliation.

The choice is simple.

 

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

He did not appear resurrected to those very ones he made the promise to.

 

Read what the verses say

They asked Yeshua for a sign to us (the Jews) and Yeshua said destroy this temple and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.

Yeshua was saying that the sign they would all know is that his body would be killed and in three days he would raise it up.

That sign came to pass.

His body was destroyed  and three days later he rose from the dead.

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Where does Iesous state that this prayer is only for such people?

So you are saying he was telling them not to believe in him ?

The verse is clear he tells them to forgive others and to confess and ask God to forgive them. The method in which forgiveness is made is through the blood of Yeshua.

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. Flour on top. Blood sprinkled on the sides and the base of the altar. Animal meat placed on top was washed prior.

At no point does flour mix with blood

The blood on the Altar was not washed. Did you read the verse the blood was sprinkled on the sides and the blood was DRAINED in the foundation of the ALTAR. The flour was placed UPON that Altar. Meaning the flour was mixed with the blood on the ALTAR.

It's not difficult to understand.

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On 10/24/2021 at 5:35 AM, tek91 said:

It's not arrogance it's knowledge and accepting God's plan of salvation for our life. 

Muslims are lost they believe in a prophet who claims to be of God yet does not even know his eternal destiny. He could be rotting in hell right now we don't know.

 

5 hours ago, tek91 said:

Muhammad is dead in the grave and could not offer you eternal life or guarantee you heaven.

He claimed to be a man of God and yet he did not even know if he was good enough to make it to heaven in Judgement Day.

Hi , you are relying on Sunni narrations which has not accepted in Shia Islam which in Shia narrations & viewpoint prophet Muhammd (pbu) & 12 Imams as his successors certainly & whitout any doubt will go to Paradise because they are infallible/sinless & they have divine guidance so undoubtly they will be in paradise but on the other hand sunni narration & viewpoit is based denying infability of prophet Muhammad (pbu) for decreasing his position in order to falsly increase status of first three caliphs before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & providing excuse for justification of wrongdoing of their leaders & caliphs which such nonsense has been fabricated which now you are using against Muslims.

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(41) Questioning of The Prophets and Their Ummats

 
 
Before questioning the people, Allah, in His Justice, will first of all, ask the Prophets and Imams whether they had truly conveyed the message of Allah to their people.
 
When the Prophets will affirm that they had indeed done so, they will be asked to produce their witness. They will declare that Hadhrat Muhammad Mustafa (S) is their witness. The Holy Prophet of Islam will testify on their behalf; and after establishing the fact that the prophets had really conveyed the message of Allah to their peoples, questions will be put to the people as to how they received that message and how they followed it.
 
Hadhrat Muhammad Mustafa (SAW.) will be the witness of the Twelve Imams (A) also and Allah Himself will be the witness of the Holy Prophet of Islam (SAW.) 12
 
Some Ayats, which mention one or the other aspect of this event are given here for guidance: “The Day when Allah will gather the Messengers together and ask: 'What was the response you received?' They will say: 'We have no knowledge (Thou knowest better than we!), verily, Thou art the Knower of (all that is) hidden'.” (Qur’an, 5:109)
 
“So, surely, shall We question those to whom (the prophets) were sent, and surely We shall question the Messengers.” (Qur’an, 7:6)
 
Addressing the Holy Prophet (S), Allah says: “Then, how will it be when We will bring a witness from every Ummat, and will bring thee as witness over those witnesses.” (Qur’an, 4:41)
 
The witness over the people are the prophets, and our Holy Prophet (S) will be the prophets' witness.
 
About our 12 Imams (A) it has been decreed: “Thus have we made you (O successors of Muhammad!) a middle group, so that you may be witnesses over the people, and the Messenger be witness over you.” (Qur’an, 2:143)

 

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The Imams (A) said: “That Middle group (between the Ummat and the Prophet), the witnesses over the people, are we (the 12 Imams), and Allah has intended only us in this Ayat; and the Prophet (S) is witness over us.: 13
 
A second Hadith from the First Imam (A):
“When the Day of Qiyamat will come, and the scales will be erected, and the prophets and witnesses (And witnesses means Imams) will be present, then every Imam will testify on the people of his time that he stood before them with the commands of Allah and called them towards the way of Allah………………” 14
 
Question: How can Hadhrat Muhammad Mustafa (S) be a witness of the previous prophets and of the Imams who came after his departure from this world? Surely, Allah cannot allow a testimony based on hearsay? 
Answer: The Light of our Holy Prophet (S) was created thousands of years before the creation of Adam. And from the same Light were created his daughter Bibi Fatimah Zahra and the twelve Imams (peace from Allah be on them all). It is not a place to describe the Ahadith to this effect; but it is a fact which is beyond doubt in the Islamic faith.
 

 

5 hours ago, tek91 said:

Yeshua conquered death and promises us eternal life and bled and died for our sin and reconciliation.

this is just your deviated belief which surley Yeshua will return to be helper of Imam Mahdi (aj) then he will die as a muslim for final proof of dying any living creature before judgment day.

5 hours ago, tek91 said:

You have yet to show a clear verse outlining another way.

You have also yet to show that sins and good deeds are put in some balance o decide who goes to heaven and hell.

:brucelee:

I am still waiting for one clear verse

 

Quote

Now a few Ayats on 'Weighing-scale':-
“And the Balance that Day is True: So, that whose scales (of good deeds) will be heavy, will prosper; and those whose scales will be light will find themselves in loss, because they mistreated our Signs.” (Qur’an, 7:8-9)
 
“We shall set up scales of Justice for the Day of Judgement, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least; and if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it (to account): and enough are We to take account”(Qur’an, 21:47)

 

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“And the earth shall get radiant with the light of its Lord; and the Book (of deeds) shall be set, and the prophets and the witnesses shall be brought up; and (it) shall be judged between them with Justice, and they shall not be wronged.
 
“And every soul shall be paid in full what it had done; and He knows best what they do.
 

 

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“And thou shaft see the angels circling around the 'Arsh' (The throne of absolute authority), celebrating the praise of their Lord, and it shall be judged between them with justice, and it shall be said: 'All praise is of Allah, the Lord of the universe” (Qur’an, 39:67-75)

 

Quote

This is what the Beneficent (Allah) had promised, and the Messengers did speak the truth.
 
“There will be but a single cry, when lo! They shall all be brought unto Us. So, this day no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least, noi shall you be recompensed but that which you were doing.” (Qur’an, 36:48-54)

https://www.al-islam.org/day-judgement-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/part-4-day-judgement

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5 hours ago, tek91 said:

Yeshua conquered death and promises us eternal life and bled and died for our sin and reconciliation.

 Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) alone, for he was raised from the earth alive and his soul was taken between heaven and earth, then he was raised to heaven and his soul was returned to him,

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Indeed, the affair of none of the prophets of Allah and His authorities, peace be with them, appeared doubtful to the people, except the affair of Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) alone, for he was raised from the earth alive and his soul was taken between heaven and earth, then he was raised to heaven and his soul was returned to him, and that is what the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Magnificent, is about:

When Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take you to Me, and I will raise you to Me (3:55)

And Allah, the Mighty and Magnificent, said, narrating the speech of Jesus on the Resurrection Day,

And I was a witness over them, so long as I was among them, but when You took me to Yourself, You were Yourself the watcher over them. You Yourself are witness over everything (5:117)

 

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31. It is narrated that Yasir al-Khadim said: “I heard [Imam] Al-Ridha’ (‘a) say, ‘The most terrifying events for creatures are three: the day one is born and comes out of his mother’s belly and sees the world, the day he dies and sees the afterlife and its people, and the day he is raised and sees laws he did not see in this world, and Allah made John secure in these three events and protected him from fear, and He said,

Peace be with him the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he is raised to life (19:15)

And Jesus the son of Mary made himself secure in these three events, and he said,

Peace be with me the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am raised to life (19:33).’”33

 

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-through-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/birth-jesus

6 hours ago, tek91 said:

Likewise Yeshua just did his purpose and knew that it was going to lead to his death as he knew that was his cross to bear and that he had to drink of the cup. (He expressed what was going to happen to him many times) 

Also, these traditions show that Hadhrat Isa (A) will come as a follower of Imam Mahdi (A) to help him in these tasks. He will not establish any separate community; but will live as one of the Muslims.

Quote


 

(31) Hadhrat Isa Bin Maryam (A)

 
According to the accepted traditions, at that time, Nabii Isa (A) will come down, Dajjal will be killed, and his army annihilated. Also Hadhrat Isa (A) will break the Cross and destroy the pig.
 
The significance of these three items will be explained later. Before that, a few traditions are quoted here to give the full picture.
 
The Holy Prophet said: “I swear by Allah, in whose hand is my soul, surely will come down to you the son of Maryam, as a just ruler; then he will break the cross and kill the swine, and will finish the war (or according to another narration, will revoke the Jizyah); and there will be so much wealth that nobody will accept any charity; and for the people, one Sajdah of Allah will be better than the whole world and its contents.” 8
 
In another tradition (narrated by Nuwwas bin Samaan) the mischief of Dajjal is described by the Holy Prophet (S); then the Hadith continues as follows:—
“At that time (when Dajjal will be doing all this), Allah will send Masih, son of Maryam and he will come down on the eastern side of Damascus, near the white minaret, wearing two robes of yellow colour, keeping his hand on the arms of two angels; when he will bow down his head, it will seem as if drops are coming down like pearls. Whenever his breath reaches an unbeliever (and it will reach to the furthest limit of his eye -sight) that un -believer will die at once. Then the son of Maryam will chase Dajjal and will catch him at the gate of Ludd 9 (present days' 'Lod' near Tel Aviv. There is an Israeli Air Force base there nowadays.)…..”
 
Another Hadith:
 
Abu Amamah Bahili narrates (in a long Hadith about Dajjal):
“While their (i.e., Muslims') Imam (i.e., Imam Mahdi A) would have come forward to lead the morning prayer, Isa, son of Maryam, will come down among them and the Imam will retreat and welcome Isa forward; but Isa will put his hands between his shoulders, and will say: No, you should lead the prayer because it has been established for you. So he will lead the prayer. After finishing the prayer, Hadhrat Isa (A) will say, 'Open the door'. The door will be opened. On the outside, Dajjal with seventy thousand well-armed Jews will be present to fight. When Hadhrat Isa (A) will look at him, he will start melting as salt melts in water; and he (Dajjal) will flee. Hadhrat Isa (A) will say: “I have for thee an attack which thou canst escape.” Then he will catch him at the eastern gate of Ludd (i.e., Lod). Allah will defeat the Jews; the face of earth will be full of Muslims, as a water-pot is filled with water. The whole world will recite the Kalimah, and none will be worshipped but Allah.”10
 
From these and other traditions, it appears that Dajjal will be from the Jews, and he will present himself as the awaited Messiah of the Jews. It is necessary to mention that after the death of Hadhrat Sulayman, Bani Israel's history passes from one fiasco to another. At last, after the captivity in Babylon and Syria, they were dispersed everywhere, and their prophets gave them good tidings that a Messiah was to come from God who was to rescue them from disgrace and dishonour. So they awaited a Messiah who, according to their thinking, was to be a king. Then Hadrat Isa (S.A.) came but against their expectations he was not a king. So they did not accept him as the awaited Messiah; instead, they tried to kill him.

Thenceforth, all the Jews in the world are awaiting the Messiah, hoping that he would be a martial and political leader who would establish a Jewish kingdom from the Nile to the Euphrates, and will gather the Jews in the land which they believe is theirs by inheritance.

 
It does not require great intelligence to realize that the stage is being set for the appearance of Dajjal in Middle East, claiming to be the promised Messiah of the Jews. If such a leader comes forward, then Allah will send the real Messiah to fight against him. It was Isa bin Maryam, who two thousand years ago, was rejected by the Jews, whom they, according to their thinking, had crucified and destroyed. The place of the fighting will be Syria where the imposter will have entered with an army 70,000 strong. When Hadhrat Isa (A) comes down, leading Muslims to fight against him, he will flee, and will be killed near the entrance of the present day Lod. The Jews will be killed, and Judaism will perish at the hands of the true Messiah.
 
So much about the relationship of Hadhrat Isa (A) with the Jews. Now we come to the present day's Christianity. In traditions, it has been said that Hadhrat Isa (A) will break the Cross and kill the swine. What is its significance?
 
As we know, the whole structure of Christianity is based upon the belief that God caused the death - a cursed death - for His only son who became a Kaffarh (Atonement) for the hereditory sin of mankind. Also, the peculiarity of this religion is that it puts the whole emphasis on faith, and has abrogated the Law, so much so that they started eating even pork, which was strictly forbidden in Torah.
 
When Hadhrat Isa (A) comes down and announces that he was neither a son of God, nor was he crucified on any cross, nor was he made an atonement for any one's sin, the whole structure of present day Christianity will crumble. Likewise, when he would explain that he did not allow his followers to abrogate the Law, eat pork or treat the Sheriat as cancelled, the second peculiarity of Christianity will come to an end.
 
Thus, the words “will break the Cross and will kill the swine” denote the fact that Christianity as a religion will be abolished.
 
Likewise, the words concerning both Imam Mahdi and Hadhrat Isa (peace on them all) that “he will revoke Jizyah” mean that the difference of religions will come to an end; every one will come within the fold of Islam. There will be no need for any war to defend Islam, as the whole world will have accepted it. So, none will be liable to pay Jizyah.
 
These facts, incidentally, show the reason why Allah has kept Hadhrat Isa (A) alive. Naturally, these tasks can be performed in the best possible way only by that person whose name has been used all through these centuries to misguide the people. And poetic justice demands that the imposter Messiah be killed by the hands of the true Messiah; and Judaism be annihilated at the hands of that prophet whom they had, in their own thinking, destroyed centuries ago.
 
Also, these traditions show that Hadhrat Isa (A) will come as a follower of Imam Mahdi (A) to help him in these tasks. He will not establish any separate community; but will live as one of the Muslims.

https://www.al-islam.org/day-judgement-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/part-3-some-signs-day-resurrection#31-hadhrat-isa-bin-maryam

https://www.al-islam.org/person/prophet-jesus

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Jesus’ Appellations in the Quran

The first approach of the Quran for correction of the false Jewish and Christian doctrines about Jesus is about the appellations given to him.

1. Son of Mary

The most commonly used title for Jesus is ‘Son of Mary’. Of the 25 places in the Quran where Jesus is mentioned, in 16 of them he is called ‘Son of Mary’. In the present Gospels, however, only in one place is Jesus referred to as ‘The son of May’ (Mark 6:3) although not with favour. The reason why this appellation is added to his name in the Quran is a hint that he was not son of God!

2. Al-Maseeh (The Messiah)

The second most common appellation of Jesus in the Quran is ‘Al-Maseeh’. Prophet Jesus is eleven times referred to as al-Maseeh in the holy Quran. Commentators of the Quran and Muslim lexicographers have given various etymological explanations of the word ‘Al-Maseeh’. Some suggested that the name is given for Jesus when he was travelling in the earth as he was a mobile preacher.

Others say that Jesus was the Messiah because he healed the ill by touching their bodies. With all respect to these explanations, I believe none of them are reflecting on the purpose of the usage of the term ‘Al-Maseeh’ in the Quran. The title of ‘The Messiah’ is very important to the Jews and the Christians.

We need to bear in mind that the term al-Maseeh is the Arabic form of the Hebrew word m îa (Mashiach). The Greek equivalent is Christ. Thus, the etymology of the term must be sought in its original language, i.e. Hebrew not Arabic. ‘Al-Maseeh’ in Hebrew means ‘Anointed one’. In the Jewish tradition, the term was a dignified title. Al-Maseeh was used for the ceremonial induction into leadership. Three types of leaders were anointed:

1) Prophets; representing God among people as in the case of Abelmeholah to be the prophet in place of Eliha. (1 King 19:15-17)

2) Priests; representing the people before God through sacrifices and prayers. (Ex. 28:40-41)

3) Kings; to defend and rule over the people on God’s behalf. (1 King 19:15)

In general, the anointing meant that someone was authorized to serve God in a position of honour and responsibility. Although many people in the Old Testament were called Messiah, there was only one referred to as ‘The Messiah’, who’s coming. The Israelites were both hoping for and expecting as “The Deliverer" of the Jewish people”. (Daniel 9:25)

The term ‘Al’ in Arabic is a definite article like ‘The’‘Al-Maseeh’ therefore is equivalent to ‘The Messiah, the Anointed one’ as used in the Hebrew language. It seems when Almighty Allah states:

“Indeed, the Messiah; Jesus son of Mary, was a Messenger of Allah” (4:171)

He thus refers to this belief of the Messiah that the Jewish people were expecting, confirming that this was, indeed, Jesus son of Mary; The Messenger of God.

In short, both the Jews and the Christians exceeded the limits with regards to Christ. The Jews went astray by denying Jesus as ‘The promised Messiah and the Prophet of God’, and the Christians of later centuries also erred in misinterpreting Jesus as the Messiah who forgives their sin. It is regarding this explanation that Almighty Allah states:

“O people of the Book (Jews and the Christians) do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah; Jesus son of Mary, was a Messenger of Allah.” (4:171)

 

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Also, the holy Quran refers to the she-Camel at the time of prophet Saleh ‘The She-Camel of God’ (91:13) does it mean that God has a camel or she is part of God?! Moreover, the expression of ‘A Spirit from God’ is used in the Quran regarding the creation of Adam.

“So, I have fashioned him and breathed into him from My Spirit, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (38:72)

Similarly, regarding the believers, the Almighty Allah states:

“For such people, He has written faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a Spirit from Him.” (58:22)

Thus, one should also claim that Adam, the believers and the whole of humanity are all part of God! The expression of ‘A spirit from Allah’ therefore is meant to explain that God is the source of the life of Jesus and all other creatur

https://www.al-islam.org/ancient-prophets-modern-world-true-story-jesus-p-mansour-leghaei/jesus-messenger-allah

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3. It is reported that ‘Ali ibn al-Hasan ibn Fadal reported that his father said, “I said to Al-Ridha’ (‘a), ‘Why were the disciples (hawariyin) called hawariyin?’ He said, ‘According to the people, they were called hawariyin because they were bleachers who used to clean clothes from filth by washing, and this name is derived from hawari (bleached) bread, but according to us they are called hawariyin because they were pure in themselves and purified others from the filth of sin by sermons and remembrance.’

Then it was asked, ‘Why the Christians (Nasara) were called Nasara?’ He said, ‘Because they were from a village named Nasirah among the towns of Syria. Mary and Jesus settled in it after they returned from Egypt.’”3

4. Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said, “Verily the disciples of Jesus (‘a) were his followers, and our followers are our disciples. The disciples of Jesus were not more obedient than our disciples are to us. Jesus (‘a) said to the disciples, ‘Who are my helpers for Allah?’

The disciples said, ‘We will be the helpers of Allah.’4 By Allah, they did not help him from the Jews and they did not fight with them for him, but our followers, by Allah, always have helped us since Allah, may His remembrance be magnified, took [the soul of] the Apostle of Allah, and they have fought for us, have been burned and tormented and frightened away in the cities. May Allah give them the best reward for us.”5

 

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6. Mufaddal reported in a lengthy narration that he said to Al-Sadiq (‘a), “O my guardian and master! Why are the people of Moses called Yahud (Jews)?” He said, “Because of the saying of Allah, the mighty and magnificent,

‘Verily, we turn (hudna) unto You’ (7:156),

that is, ‘we seek Your guidance.’” He said, “What about the Nasara (Christians)?” He said, “Because of the saying of Jesus (‘a),

‘Who will be my helpers in the way of Allah?’ The disciples said, ‘We are the helpers (ansar) of Allah. We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are ones who submit.’ (3:52)

So, they were called Nasara because of their help to the religion of Allah.”7

7. It was said to Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a), “Why is it that the companions of Jesus (‘a) walked on water, while it was not this way with the companions of Muhammad (S)?” He said, “Verily, the companions of Jesus were saved the trouble of livelihood, but the latter were tested by livelihood.”8

8. It is reported that Imam Al-Sadiq (‘a) said, “When Jesus (‘a) wanted to wish farewell to his disciples, he called them together and order them to be for weak creatures and he prohibited them from despots. Then he sent two of them to Antioch. They arrived on the day of a festival.

They found the people there had uncovered idols and were worshipping them. They hurried toward them violently. They were put in irons and thrown into prison. When Simon found out about this, he went to Antioch and visited them in the prison. He said, ‘Did I not prohibit you from despots?’

Then he left them, and sat with the weak people. He began gradually to discuss matters with them. Then the weak spoke of these things with those who were stronger, while they kept it a most confidential secret. Their words kept ascending until they finally reached the king. He asked, ‘Since when has this man been in my kingdom?’ They said, ‘For two months.’ He said, ‘Bring him to me.’ They brought him.

When the king saw Simon, he felt love for him. He said, ‘I will not sit, unless he is beside me.’ Later after having had a frightening dream, he asked Simon about it. Simon gave a good answer that gladdened the king. Later he had another terrifying dream. Simon interpreted it in such manner that the king’s happiness increased.

They conversed thus until Simon came to have influence over the king. Then he said, ‘Verily, there are two men in your jail who insulted you.’ The king said, ‘Yes.’ Simon said, ‘Bring them to me.’ When they were brought to Simon, he asked, ‘What is the god you worship?’ They said, ‘Allah.’ He said, ‘When you ask Him for something, does He hear you, and does He answer you when you pray to Him?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Simon said, ‘I want to ask you something to gain assurance from you about this.’

They said, ‘Ask.’ He said, ‘Does He cure the leper?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Bring a leper.’ He said, ‘Ask Him to cure this leper.’ They laid hands upon him and he was cured. Simon said, ‘I, also, can do the like of what you have done.’ Then he said, ‘Bring another.’ Simon laid hands on the leper and he was cured. Another mark remains; if you answer this I will believe in your God.’ They said, ‘What is it?’

He said, ‘Can you revive the dead?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ Then Simon faced the king and asked, ‘Do you have a dead person who’s passing has been hard for you?’ He said, ‘Yes. My son.’Simon said, ‘Bring us to his grave.’ Then he said, ‘They have put themselves at risk for you.’

Then they turned to the grave and raised their hands [in prayer], as did Simon, then suddenly the grave cracked open and the youth stood up. He faced his father who said to him, ‘How are you?’ He said, ‘I was dead, and terrified, when I understood there to be three persons standing before Allah with their hands raised in prayer to Him.

They prayed that He revive me. They were those two and he.’ Simon said, ‘I am a believer in your God.’ The king said, ‘O Simon, I believe in Him in Whom you have come to believe.’ The viziers of the king said, ‘And we believe in Him in Whom our master has come to believe.’ The weak always followed the strong. In Antioch none remained who did not believe.”9

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-through-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/disciples-jesus

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A Prayer of Jesus

Among the supplications narrated from Jesus, the son of Mary, is: “O God! You are the Deity of all who are in heaven and the Deity of all on the earth. There is no Deity in them other than You, and You are the All-wise for all in heaven and the All-wise for all on the earth. There is no All-wise in them other than You. And you are the King of all in heaven and all on the earth. There is no King in them other than You. Your power in heaven is like Your power on the earth. And Your sovereignty in heaven is like Your sovereignty on the earth. I ask you by Your All-generous Name and Your radiant face and Your eternal kingdom, do such and such for me.”



It is reported that a man complained to Jesus about his debts. Jesus said to him, “Say: ‘O God, Who takes away grief, removes sadness, disposes of sorrow, and answers the prayers of the needy! O Merciful of this world and the other world and the Compassionate of them! You are Merciful to me and Merciful to all things! So, be Merciful to me, with a mercy that will make me needless of the mercy of others than You, and by that mercy let my debts be paid.’”

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-ethics-forty-ahadith/jesus-ethics-forty-pieces-advice-word-god

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11. Abu al-Layth said in his interpretation of the Qur’an, “The people asked Jesus (‘a) in ridicule, ‘Create a bat for us, and put a spirit in it, if you are one of the truthful.’ Then he took some clay and made a bat and breathed into it. Then it suddenly flew between the sky and the earth. The clay was put in order and breathed into by Jesus, but the creation was by Allah, the Supreme. And it is said that they asked for the creation of a bat because it is more wonderful than the rest of creation.”12

12. Imam Al-Sadiq (‘a) was asked, “Did Jesus the son of Mary enliven someone after his death, so that he was eating and had a daily living, continued his life for a term and had a child?” He said, “Yes, he had a friend who was a brother in Allah to him. And when Jesus passed by he would go down to him. And Jesus (‘a) would spend a while with him. Then he would leave with salutations of Peace unto him. Then his mother came out to him [Jesus].

Then she said to him, ‘He died, O Apostle of Allah!’ He said to her, ‘Would you like to see him?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ He said to her, ‘I will come to you tomorrow to enliven him, with the permission of Allah.’ When the morrow arrived he came and said to her, ‘Accompany me to his grave.’ So they went to his grave. Jesus (‘a) stopped, then called on Allah.

Then the grave opened and her son came out alive. Then when his mother saw him and he saw her, they cried. Jesus (‘a) had mercy on them and said to him, ‘Would you like to remain with your mother in the world?’

He said, ‘O Apostle of Allah! With eating and a daily living and a term, or without a term and no daily living and no eating?’ Then Jesus (‘a) said to him, ‘But with a daily living and eating and a term you will live for twenty years, marry and father a child.’ He said, ‘Yes, in that case.’” [Imam Al-Sadiq] said, “Then Jesus (‘a) returned him to his mother and he lived for twenty years, married and fathered a child.”13

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-through-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/conduct-jesus

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6. Supported by ‘The Holy Spirit’

Of the appellations of Jesus in the Quran is that God has supported and protected him by the Holy Spirit. In Christian theology, the Holy Spirit is regarded as part of the Godhead, or the third person of the Trinity, and hence is regarded as synonymous with God!

Even though the "Holy Spirit" has been referred to in earlier writings, as at the time of the baptism of Jesus, and has been spoken of in the New Testament as being in previous times: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers, did, so do ye" (Acts 7:51)

It is generally accepted that the work of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost came into play after Jesus was taken up into heaven (Acts 11:28). Therefore, while it may appear to be logical that the Holy Spirit in Christian theology is the angel Gabriel or another of the Messenger angels, this is not in keeping with today`s dogma of Christianity.

There are two famous meanings for ‘the Holy Spirit’ from the Islamic point of view.

One is that it’s meant for Gabriel; An angel whose main task –though surely not the only one- is to bring the revelations to the Prophets. This meaning is supported by Ayah 102 in Chapter 16 wherein the Almighty Allah states:

“Say: The Holy Spirit (Gabriel) has brought it (the Quran) down from your Lord with truth.” (16:102)

Gabriel is called ‘The Spirit’ for as an angel he is not physical and is ‘Holy’ in his purity and infallibility. Another suggestion for the meaning of ‘The Holy Spirit’ is that it is a spirit greater than Gabriel by whom Almighty Allah supported His Messengers and their successors.

It is by possessing this spirit that they are safeguarded from any sin or error and can gain an intuitive knowledge of the reality of the universe. The Messenger of Islam (S) was bestowed with this spirit.

“And thus, We have sent to you a Spirit of Our Command.” (42:52)

Jabir al-Jo’fi asked Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام)) about the knowledge of the Imams. The Imam explained: “O Jabir! Verily there are five types of spirits in the Prophets and their successors; The holy spirit, the spirit of faith, the spirit of life, the spirit of power, and the spirit of desire. It is by the Holy Spirit that they know what is in the kingdom of God. O Jabir! All the other four spirits can be afflicted, but the Holy Spirit will not amuse or entertain.”

Thus, it is explained that the Holy Spirit is accorded the nature which Almighty God has bestowed upon His Messengers and their successors to protect them against sinning. We should however bear in mind that whatever the meaning of the Holy Spirit may be, it is undoubtedly a creature of God subjugated by His will.

https://www.al-islam.org/ancient-prophets-modern-world-true-story-jesus-p-mansour-leghaei/jesus-messenger-allah

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This thread and the other ones initiated by tek91 have provided more than enough evidence testifying to the untenable nature of the Christian position in light of history and the Hebrew Bible, and especially as regards to their depiction of Isa (alayhissalam), the slave of Allah, and what his mission was supposed to accomplish.

The inconsistencies and overall theological and factual confusions on the matter demonstrate how true the Quran is when it states about this group of people "most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture"

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On 10/24/2021 at 7:43 PM, tek91 said:

You have yet to show a clear verse outlining another way.

You have also yet to show that sins and good deeds are put in some balance o decide who goes to heaven and hell.

:brucelee:

I am still waiting for one clear verse

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”—Ezekiel 18:20

“Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin. “—Deuteronomy 24:16

Christianity clearly contradicts this simple logic in the Old Testament.

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