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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Pre-Existence of Jesus

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On 10/20/2021 at 4:21 PM, Andrew Israel said:

No he didn’t.  Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never claimed divinity.  Show us in the Bible where he explicitly says “worship me” or “I am god”.  Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is saying if you accept him as a prophet you have recognized god.  The same logic is also true of Christians who refuse to accept Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are the same as the Jews who refused to accept Christ (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) during his advent.  See the problem with Christians is they are taking their texts too literally when their books have been tampered with…which is a dangerous combination.

I believe I talked about this before on the other post.

Here is a good video from a jewish believer that I agree 100 percent with and shows how the unity of God fits the hebrew bible teachings in the torah and tanach.

 

Edited by tek91
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12 hours ago, tek91 said:

Where do you believe evil came from?

From the entities endowed with freewill which Allah created. This is made clear in sura al-falaq (113). 

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

We believe good and evil was created

God created murder and sin?

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

we have a choise to do what is good or evil.

So we can be good and do good in God's eyes, by our own will and effort?

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12 hours ago, tek91 said:

Why do you keep saying suicide mission? Yeshua did not die for himself he died for others. Martydom would be a better definition of what Yeshua did.

A Japanese kamikaze blowing himself up for his nation is a martyr? What about the Chinese "suicide squads"?

The point isn't what Iesous' death was supposed to achieve, but whether he deliberately acted in a way that would bring about his death. Did Iesous not send his own self to earth for the express purpose of dying according to his, and his divine partners' plan for universal salvation?

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

The commandments was given to reveal Gods standard of absolute righteousness

There is nothing absolute in John's parents performance of the commandements God prescribed. And yet they are blameless in God's sight Lk1:6. Further,  Deut30:10-14 states that the entire Law is at at anyone's reach. In Ps119:1 we read "Praiseworthy are those whose way is perfect, who walk with the law of the Lord".

Similarily in Job37:23 people are not expected to be perfectly righteous in Torah observance.

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

Even the torah/tanach and NT explains that our righteousness are like filthy rags

Yes Isa64 is a Christian favorite. It actually is a long prayer of confession where Isaiah compares the righteousness of a SINFUL generation to filthy rags. It isnt speaking in general. The prayer continues by asking God to return to His servants and have mercy on the righteous sons of Jacob (63:17). As is clear, the passage doesnt dismiss all people's righteous deeds as useless, only those coming from insincere and sinful people. This isnt something strange, whether Jesus or the Quran would equally later denounce religious hypocrisy.

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

That's why God emphasised CLEARLY a substitude, in the OT by animal sacrifices

As well as repentance, among many other avenues for sin atonement, with or without shedding blood. See this 

 

Besides the HB being filled with prayers of forgiveness and admonishment to repent, with or without an offering, such a notion that "only blood atones" renders meaningless the Lord's prayer in the NT. Jesus would have been teaching his followers a useless prayer of forgiveness Lk11"Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us". What is further striking is that throughout Acts, where the apostles give a number of speeches in order to convert others to the faith, the notion of Jesus' death as an atoning sacrifice is absent.

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12 hours ago, tek91 said:

The bible clearly states his Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord meaning God has a Spirit.

Sure. He also has an Arm and Hand. Add them to the godhead, the more the better. If not, why not?

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

Just like we all have a spirit God has a Spirit.

Sure, just like we have an arm and a hand.

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

His Spirit according to torah/tanach dwelled with prophets, edifies, comes as a breath, gave people, created and sustained life, spoke Gods word, promoted holyness, addressed evil, regenerates and insdwelles believers.

Yes, His Arm and Hand are described as doing many wonderful things too. 

12 hours ago, tek91 said:

Basically the same Spirit of God in the torah/tanach is the same Holy Spirit in the NT

There is no "holy spirit" in the HB.

And we still need to establish why is the evil spirit emanating from God not divine, while the holy spirit equally emanating from Him is.

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13 hours ago, tek91 said:

I believe I talked about this before on the other post.

Here is a good video from a jewish believer that I agree 100 percent with and shows how the unity of God fits the hebrew bible teachings in the torah and tanach.

 

 

Who was worshipped before Jesus was born?
 

Who did Mary worship before Jesus was born?
 

When exactly was Jesus worshipped?

 

Did his mother worship him when he was born?


Did Jesus tell his disciples to worship him?

 

Did Jesus worship himself?

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

From the entities endowed with freewill which Allah created. This is made clear in sura al-falaq (113). 

So you believe evil came from thin air? Or do you believe satan created it?

Because free well cannot create...How did we get the choice to choose good and evil if good and evil were not created?

So according to you God did not create everything only some things.

The NT and Torah/Tanach disagree with you.

I understand that your quran says that as it's a new religion created by Mohammad that does not follow the previous books.

The HB is perfectly clear God created evil as well as good to give us a choice to obey and love God and reject evil.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

God created murder and sin?

Murder and sin are as a result of the evil in the World. God created evil to give a choice and many men chose evil and to commit acts of murder and sin.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

we can be good and do good in God's eyes, by our own will and effort?

Yes but if we fail we have an advocate a substitude as was taught in torah/tanach and gospels.

And i'm sure not a single person in the history of the World can say they are perfect and never failed. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

All except Yeshua of course that's why he became our substitude.

If you want no substitude go ahead on Judgement day you'll find out how wrong you are and allah nor mohhamad will help you.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Japanese kamikaze blowing himself up for his nation is a martyr? What about the Chinese "suicide squads"?

The point isn't what Iesous' death was supposed to achieve, but whether he deliberately acted in a way that would bring about his death. Did Iesous not send his own self to earth for the express purpose of dying according to his, and his divine partners' plan for universal salvation?

Yeshua died for the sins of the World it wasnt a suicide.

You get the point I believe, please dont try to disrespect by using cheap words or lessen what he did.

Yes he came down for the point of dying but I would say it's because of love. God loves us and sent his Son to Earth to save us.

You know the famous John 3:16 verse.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

There is nothing absolute in John's parents performance of the commandements God prescribed. And yet they are blameless in God's sight Lk1:6. Further,  Deut30:10-14 states that the entire Law is at at anyone's reach. In Ps119:1 we read "Praiseworthy are those whose way is perfect, who walk with the law of the Lord".

Similarily in Job37:23 people are not expected to be perfectly righteous in Torah observance.

I explained this to you blameless does not equal sinless.

It means they were upright and were law observant. In torah/tanach blameless is equivalent of being without rebuke in the middle of a crooked generation.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Similarily in Job37:23 people are not expected to be perfectly righteous in Torah observance.

You quote Job but why don't you quote Job 1:5?

That's right Job woke up every morning and offered animal sacrifice for himself and his sons continually. He followed the Leviticus blood atonement laws.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

well as repentance, among many other avenues for sin atonement, with or without shedding blood. See this 

I havent seen 1 verse by you showing God outlining repentance as a substitude for sin.

Repentance does not atone sin.

I am still waiting for a clear verse.

I am also waiting for you to show me that God puts our good works and sins in a balance to decide if we go to heaven or hell.

Mohammad wasnt even sure of his own eternal destiny. How can you be sure that mohammad is not in hell? We know that Yeshua rose from the dead. Mohammad is in the grave and dead.

Yet you depend on this mans words for your eternity instead of God.

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10 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Besides the HB being filled with prayers of forgiveness and admonishment to repent, with or without an offering, such a notion that "only blood atones" renders meaningless the Lord's prayer in the NT. Jesus would have been teaching his followers a useless prayer of forgiveness Lk11"Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us". What is further striking is that throughout Acts, where the apostles give a number of speeches in order to convert others to the faith, the notion of Jesus' death as an atoning sacrifice is absent.

You failed that argument and still have yet to show me a clear verse of God outlining another way to atone sin in the similar fashion that I showed you.

Until you do all I see from your words is damage control.

You also could not find anything concerning the muslim method of atonement of sin the magical balance that is never mentioned in torah and tanach.

Mohammads invention.

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10 hours ago, Andrew Israel said:

 

Who was worshipped before Jesus was born?
 

Who did Mary worship before Jesus was born?
 

When exactly was Jesus worshipped?

 

Did his mother worship him when he was born?


Did Jesus tell his disciples to worship him?

 

Did Jesus worship himself?

Dr. Michael Brown has answered these questions.

The question you should be asking is who does allah worship.

They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157

He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him (salloo) and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:
On 10/21/2021 at 10:42 PM, tek91 said:

by animal sacrifices

As well as repentance, among many other avenues for sin atonement, with or without shedding blood. See this 

There's not a verse in the world that says repentance atones sin. I am eagerly awaiting for you to show me just one verse showing this.

As for the flour I explained to you the flour was put UPON the altar according to Lev 2:2

This means the flour was mixed with the blood of the animals as the altar is where the animals blood was placed.

Read and see where the blood of the animals is to be placed in leviticus 5:9 

and he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin offering.

Yep in the same altar the flour is placed on and burned.

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5 hours ago, tek91 said:

I understand that your quran says that as it's a new religion created by Mohammad that does not follow the previous books.

Hi you have totally  wrong understanding  from Quran because  in Quran clearly has mentioned  that religion of all prophet  from prophet  Adam (عليه السلام) then Noah (عليه السلام) then Ibrahim/Abraham  (عليه السلام) so therefore prophet  Musa/moses & prophet  Isa/Jesus (عليه السلام) has been Islam which it completly revealed without any distortion of previous holy books  of Injeel/Bible & Torah in Quran as final & undistorted  revelation which verifies undistorted  parts of Injeel/Bible & Torah which duty f prophet  Muhammad  (pu) has been repeating word of Allah/God without  any interfering  or adding or subtracting  anything from word of Allah/God & his original  religion as Islam.

4 hours ago, tek91 said:

Mohammad wasnt even sure of his own eternal destiny. How can you be sure that mohammad is not in hell? We know that Yeshua rose from the dead. Mohammad is in the grave and dead.

In similar fashion which you sre sure which Yeshua is not in hell which every living creature even Yeshua will die without doubt also mind your language which is similar to Wahabists /Salafists likewise ISIS/Daesh terrorists  which by the same token they belive that prophet  Muhammad (pbu) is " in the grave and dead." which have no relationship  to this world & belivers until judgment  day according  to their distorted belief which is influenced  by Zionist & Evangelical  distorted belief in name of Wahabism  /Salafism.

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

So you believe evil came from thin air? Or do you believe satan created it?

Because free well cannot create...How did we get the choice to choose good and evil if good and evil were not created?

So according to you God did not create everything only some things.

The NT and Torah/Tanach disagree with you.

I understand that your quran says that as it's a new religion created by Mohammad that does not follow the previous books.

The HB is perfectly clear God created evil as well as good to give us a choice to obey and love God and reject evil.

Evil has no independent existence. It is only a byproduct or a consequence of some one or some being (we believe there are other beings besides humans who have free will) choosing to disobey God and thus evil is created at that moment. Because people have free will, it means they can choose to disobey God and ignore the signs of God that are given to them, kind of like what you have been doing in these debates. When someone makes a perfectly logical and reasonable point that you don't like, you try to figure out a way to disprove it, rather than listening. This is God talking to you via the medium of human speech that is based on mechanism for discovering truth (i.e. logic and reason) which God created. It is not revelation (primary revelation) because none of us are prophets, but it is based on revelation. So when you ignore that, evil is then created. 

So God did not prefer for evil to exist, but He(s.w.a) knows that because free will exists, therefore evil will exist as a consequence, because some people will choose to exercise free will in the way that God does not prefer them to do.  The reason why God does not prefer that is because God(s.w.a) is Love, and he loves all people and does not wish them to go to hell and have other bad consequences which will happen to them if they continue to do evil and not repent. Evil does not harm God(s.w.a), but it harms us, all of us, and since God loves us, He doesn't prefer that we are harmed. That is also the reason why we believe that human beings have a potential to be at the pinnacle of created beings, above the angels and the animals. Because they obey God despite the fact that they have the ability to disobey Him(s.w.a). 

About the Quran, like others have said, Islam is not a new religion and the Quran is a book of guidance from God, and in that way it is similar to the Torah and the Bible in their original forms(before they were played around with by evil people who were serving the illegitimate rulers of their time). Islam means 'when you want something, and you know that God wants something, you don't do what you want but what God wants where there is a conflict between the two'. That is Islam. It is an action and a way of life. It was the way of life of all the Prophets of God(s.w.a) from Adam(p.b.u.h) to Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h). When Jesus(p.b.u.h) said in the Garden 'Not my will but thy will be done', this is Islam, in summary. So Jesus(p.b.u.h) was a Muslim. We don't believe he was crucified, but he was being chased by the corrupt Jewish priests and the Romans at that time because he was calling out their corruption and deviation from the true teachings of Prophet Moses(p.b.u.h). So they were trying to kill him. We don't believe they succeeded in that, and God(s.w.a) 'raised him to Himself' as it says in the Quran. But Islam came into the picture because obvioiusly Jesus(p.b.u.h) didn't want to die or to be captured but he continued preaching the Message which God gave him to preach despite the fact that by doing this he put himself in danger. He continued. This is the essence of Islam. 

A muslim is simply someone who practices Islam. 

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

Murder and sin are as a result of the evil in the World.

That is what the Quran is surah al-falaq says.

The Bible on the other hand says God created evil. This includes sin.

Due to the imprecise words of the corrupted Bible, one therefore needs to qualify further this statement, by saying what is quoted above.

11 hours ago, tek91 said:

God created evil to give a choice

Specify an example of such "evil" Iesous created in his pre-incarnate state, together with his partners.

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

Yes but if we fail

That is besides the point.

If we can do good on our own, it means it is possible to be completely blameless in God's sight, through deeds pleasing to God. Just as John's parents were Lk1:6.

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

Yes he came down for the point of dying but I would say it's because of love

The question is clear and has no tinge of sarcasm.

Regardless of what Iesous' death achieved or what his reasons were, just like the chinese suicode squads or Japanese Kamikaze, if he deliberately acted in a way that would bring about his death, it is suicide.

The twist in Iesous' case is that his death is the result of a situation he created and could have avoided; saving mankind from a sinful nature he placed upon them, making righteousness unreachable to them.

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11 hours ago, tek91 said:

You quote Job but why don't you quote Job 1:5?

This does not address the point made in Job37:23 as the possibility to perform God's commands without doing it to perfection.

As to 1:5 it says the offering of this non Jews is "perhaps" his sons have sinned. Not only does this have nothing to do with Jewish law (Iesous' death is supposed to fulfill sacrificial requirements) but it speaks of potential sins. This doesnt fit the Christian paradigm at all.

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13 hours ago, tek91 said:

I havent seen 1 verse by you showing God outlining repentance as a substitude for sin.

Sure not 1 but 30

13 hours ago, tek91 said:

I am also waiting for you to show me that God puts our good works and sins in a balance to decide if we go to heaven or hell.

How will Iesous judge John's parents' blameless obedience to his laws on judgement day? How will he account for the good works of the believers that will earn them paradise as per his words in the NT? https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363722

As to what this Christian apologist is trying to imply in regards to the scales of justice, those interested can go there https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/05/cira-international-go-after-quran.html

13 hours ago, tek91 said:

Mohammad wasnt even sure of his own eternal destiny.

Sure. None other than Christians have the arrogance and self-righteousness to claim "salvation" while in this life. And based on what? The promise of a God who murdered his innocent son.  Muslims on the other hand base their salvation on trust of a just God. He will look at their deeds and the sincerity behind them, then reward them with a gracious reward far surpassing the merit of the best of their deeds.

13 hours ago, tek91 said:

How can you be sure that mohammad is not in hell?

No human being can dare claim paradise based on his deeds, not even the prophet. Entering heaven is a favour from Allah. As explained above, Allah is Just and has explained who will earn that favour.

13 hours ago, tek91 said:

We know that Yeshua rose from the dead.

Who is "we"? Where is the testimony of those to whom Iesous promised the miracle? That part of the NT tale is one that would not stand to even a superficial scrutiny.

When challenged by the Pharisees to display a miracle, Iesous promised them his resurrection after being dead for 3 days Matt12:39. Once he is supposedly resurrected, he doesnt appear to those who specifically asked him for the sign and to whom he said he will reappear. Instead, Iesous' followers come to the Pharisees, claiming that the sign had occured. Neither is there any claim that the risen Iesous ever appeared to anyone but believers. There is only the word of a mere handful of "witnesses" whose stories vary from person to person, and we dont even know who transmitted those biased accounts until they were eventually put to writing by scribes whom nobody knows.

13 hours ago, tek91 said:

Mohammad is in the grave and dead.

Yes, "a prophet like unto Moses".

 

 

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13 hours ago, tek91 said:

Until you do all I see from your words is damage control.

Please explain the necessity of the Lord's prayer in light of the notion that "only blood atones".

Also don't forget to explain why none of the apostles stress that notion in their speeches recorded in Acts.

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13 hours ago, tek91 said:

Where is it mentioned as God's Spirit or The Spirit of the Lord?

Being "of the Lord" is a statement that implies divinity of the thing in question? How about the arm or hand of the Lord.

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10 hours ago, tek91 said:

As for the flour I explained to you the flour was put UPON the altar according to Lev 2:2

This means the flour was mixed with the blood of the animals as the altar is where the animals blood was placed.

The poor are expected to bring an animal offering along with flour?

Flour is not mixed with the previous offering of another person, nothing indicates it was. The quote from Lev5 confirms it. Blood is sprinkled on the side, the rest drained at its base. Flour is placed on top. Nowhere do we see that the blood is placed where sin offerings are placed. The pieces of the animal offering placed on top have had their life blood drained long ago. Lev1:9 even insists these parts be washed first.

At no point is there any requirement for the meal offering (flour here) be mixed with blood on top of the altar. How will it even burn if it is soaked with blood?

The following post explains all this, as well as provides a list of question that still need addressing, negating the validity of the Christian notion of atonement https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363733

 

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15 hours ago, tek91 said:

The question you should be asking is who does allah worship.

They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157

He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him (salloo) and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 

These "translations" of the Qur'an are misguidance of the actual meanings behind the ayats referenced. Someone from "answering islam" has taken liberty to give false meanings to the words to give the mischaracterization of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). All of these ayats, if one investigates, meaning blessings, bless, to give blessings, and not to offer "prayers".

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11 hours ago, Nad_M said:

That is what the Quran is surah al-falaq says.

The Bible on the other hand says God created evil. This includes sin.

Due to the imprecise words of the corrupted Bible, one therefore needs to qualify further this statement, by saying what is quoted above.

I have been studying the subject and here is a good explanation by a jew.

Here's the paradox: Goodness exists because G‑d desired it; evil exists because G‑d doesn't want it.if a human wants something, but doesn't actually do anything about it, nothing happens. You may want a piece of cake, but a cake will not materialize unless someone bakes it. But when you're a Divine Being, your desires create reality. With G‑d, just wanting something makes it exist. After all, He is all-powerful; if He wants it, what can possibly stop it from being? He wanted a world, so it was. He wanted goodness, so it was.Now the same applies to G‑d not wanting something: it too becomes reality. If G‑d decides He doesn't want something, then that decision itself makes that thing exist. G‑d's all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates. Evil is what G‑d doesn't want. So it exists.But evil doesn't exist in the same way that goodness exists. G‑d wants goodness, so its existence is true and everlasting. Evil exists as a negative, something G‑d doesn't want, so its existence is flimsy and temporal. Evil is no more than an undesirable non-entity, a path not to be taken. By doing evil acts, we give evil more credit than it deserves. Our bad choices make evil into a truer existence than it really is.In the end, evil can't prevail. It is an unwanted ghost, a temporary illusion, a thin facade. Over time evil dissipates, no matter how menacing it may seem. Wicked empires crumble, rotten ideas become exposed, and goodness eventually shines through. That's what G‑d wanted all along, but He leaves it to us to achieve. The only way to banish the ghost of evil is to turn on the light of good.

 

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On 10/22/2021 at 8:18 AM, Nad_M said:

There is nothing absolute in John's parents performance of the commandements God prescribed. And yet they are blameless in God's sight Lk1:6. Further,  Deut30:10-14 states that the entire Law is at at anyone's reach. In Ps119:1 we read "Praiseworthy are those whose way is perfect, who walk with the law of the Lord".

Similarily in Job37:23 people are not expected to be perfectly righteous in Torah observance.

None of those words mean sinless.

The word used is tamin which means complete, entire, well rounded, balanced ect.. It does not mean "perfect" as we think of it today. It does not mean without fault, flaw or defect, sinless,

The word for sinless is different

  • Anagh Meaning Sinless, Perfect, Pure, Sinless, Pure, Perfect, Absolute, Flawless, Faultless, Complete, Thorough
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12 hours ago, Nad_M said:

That is besides the point.

If we can do good on our own, it means it is possible to be completely blameless in God's sight, through deeds pleasing to God. Just as John's parents were Lk1:6.

Blameless does not mean sinless like I showed you before.

It is possible to be blameless but not sinless.

If it is find me a person (besides Yeshua) who lived a sinless life.

That is why we needed the blood of animals in the torah\tanach and the blood of Yeshua now.

We all come short of the glory of God.

That's why blameless people in the OT offered animals.

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12 hours ago, Nad_M said:

The question is clear and has no tinge of sarcasm.

Regardless of what Iesous' death achieved or what his reasons were, just like the chinese suicode squads or Japanese Kamikaze, if he deliberately acted in a way that would bring about his death, it is suicide.

The twist in Iesous' case is that his death is the result of a situation he created and could have avoided; saving mankind from a sinful nature he placed upon them, making righteousness unreachable to them.

The sacrifice of Yeshua was pre-determined and planned. Yeshua knew when the time would come that's why many times his enemies were not able to kill him. For instance the times they tried to stone him.

That's why Yeshua was able to tell his disciples everything that was going to happen to him many times and even mentioned that one of them was going to betray him (Judas).

What did Yeshua tell his disciples when they were sleeping and right before he was going to be betrayed "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come the Son of Man is delivered into the hand of sinners.

Meaning there was a time destined for this prophecy to be fulfilled.

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12 hours ago, Nad_M said:

This does not address the point made in Job37:23 as the possibility to perform God's commands without doing it to perfection.

As to 1:5 it says the offering of this non Jews is "perhaps" his sons have sinned. Not only does this have nothing to do with Jewish law (Iesous' death is supposed to fulfill sacrificial requirements) but it speaks of potential sins. This doesnt fit the Christian paradigm at all.

This is Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

Am I missing something ? Where does this say ability to perform God's command without doing it to perfection?

As to 1:5 his sons were sinners and he would offer BLOOD sacrifice for their sins in concordance to all the Prophets of the OT. he did not put their sins and good works in a balance or repent or any of the other silly none scriptural assumptions you come up with that you claim atone sin.

That's why you right now are carrying all your sins on your back which will send you to the lake of fire if you die without accepting the Lamb of God.

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