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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Pre-Existence of Jesus

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5 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. Metaphorically when multiple subjects are clearly laid out in the sentence. Never when echad refers to a singular subject as in the schema "your Lord is echad"

Not going to go in circles or repitition its getting tiring. Echad is not the hebrew word for singularity its yachid which is singular or solidarity the numerical value of 1.

echad is unity.

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16 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

but they also have the  attributes of increasing and decreasing, ascending descending, limiting to space and time

Yes, as is the case with the passage from Daniel that is being discussed. This is where the church fathers and trinitarian councils step in, inventing words (hypostasis, "persons" etc) so as to make up for the contradictory "mysteries of the Godhead".

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19 hours ago, tek91 said:

Hello Abu Hadi 

You missed the whole conversation in this thread.

 I got the summary of it. I refuse to be dragged down into the rabbit hole, or the nonsense machine with you. If you want to have a debate, keep it on the level where the majority of members of this site can understand what you are talking about, otherwise you are just wasting everyones time and taking up computing resources, electricity, server space that could be put to better use. 

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

when the subject is in the singular, as occurs 100s of times in the HB.

I already showed you it mentioned many times its used to refer to a unity. Grapes forming one. Adam and Eve becoming one flesh ect

You cant say singular as that is not the definition of echad.

Yachid is the hebrew definition of singular, only one...

 

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11 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

got the summary of it. I refuse to be dragged down into the rabbit hole, or the nonsense machine with you. If you want to have a debate, keep it on the level where the majority of members of this site can understand what you are talking about, otherwise you are just wasting everyones time and taking up computing resources, electricity, server space that could be put to better use. 

Ok its fine to close your ears and just say la la la it means the number 1

I am trying to show that in Deutoronomy when God said ONE in hebrew what the word represents

First he was talking about the different gods existing at the time (egyptian gods ect) not to pray or serve those gods serve the One (ECHAD) GOD. It was not talking about his nature.

Second the word is echad which has been used many times to show a unity.

Last is echad is not a numerical value of 1

So your belief that God was saying that his form is a numerical value of 1 is not validated the hebrew word for the number 1 is yachid.

I would suggest you study the hebrew words spoken.

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13 minutes ago, tek91 said:

Grapes forming one. Adam and Eve becoming one flesh ect

Plural subjects, metaphorically as in any language.

Never for a singular subject as in the schema.

Echad means an absolute one in hundreds of such cases.

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1 hour ago, tek91 said:

So your belief that God was saying that his form is a numerical value of 1 is not validated the hebrew word for the number 1 is yachid.

I would suggest you study the hebrew words spoken

Yachid is literally "only". See Gen22 for example. In Hebrew the word for one is echad (masculine) and ahat (feminine). Try telling a school kid to start counting with "yachid"...

When God told Abraham to take his son to "one/echad of the mountains" did He mean to divide his son upon a compound of mountains? When Hagar put her boy under "one/echad of the shrubs" did she cut him up under multiple plants?

It is the height of absurdity to suggest that a passage refuting idolatry and multiple deities, would tell the people that "your Lord is a unity of divine beings". Further and as already pointed it would be nonsensical to use yachid/only to characterize the oneness of God here.

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3 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Plural subjects, metaphorically as in any language.

Never for a singular subject as in the schema.

Echad means an absolute one in hundreds of such cases.

Echad is a word not a metaphor. What is Echad a figure of speech for? Whats the speech?

You already admitted that echad is used to show a unity will you admit that by that Father his Word and his Spirit can be echad?

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3 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Yachid is literally "only". See Gen22 for example. In Hebrew the word for one is echad (masculine) and ahat (feminine). Try telling a school kid to start counting with "yachid"...

I showed you the meaning of Yachid

Tell me what does solidarity mean can solidarity mean more than one?

If God wanted to show that his being was 1 in numerical value thats the word he would have used not echad.

YACHID

יָחִיד
yachid: only, only one, solitary
As in a one and only child, solidarity.
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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

You already admitted that echad is used to show a unity

Sure. As in every language where a multiplicity of subjects like husband and wife are metaphorically "one".

No language however uses "one" to mean unity when the direct subject is in the singular, as in Deut6 "your Lord".

7 hours ago, tek91 said:

will you admit that by that Father his Word and his Spirit can be echad?

Yes, if a statement exists where echad refers back to those 3 entities.

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

yachid: only, only one, solitary

Exact. Not the numerical "one". Did you ask a 3 year old to start counting in Hebrew using "yachid".

On how many mountains did God ask Abraham to take his son?

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. As in every language where a multiplicity of subjects like husband and wife are metaphorically "one".

No language however uses "one" to mean unity when the direct subject is in the singular, as in Deut6 "your Lord".

How can husband and wife become one. Would not two people be two?

That's what i'm trying to show you echad in deuteronomy absolutely cannot be meant to show a numerical single number. If God was trying to convey that his nature is absolutely 1 in numerical value would he not use a word like Yachid which from concordance would suggest one and only or singular?

God would not use a word that conveys in any way a possibility of more then 1.

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15 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Exact. Not the numerical "one". Did you ask a 3 year old to start counting in Hebrew using "yachid".

On how many mountains did God ask Abraham to take his son?

You just dug yourself a hole.

יְחִֽידְךָ֤
yə-ḥî-ḏə-ḵā

the word used for one in genesis 22:2 was Yachid. 

your only son, one and only, solidarity.

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

How can husband and wife become one

Do you mean they become literally one? Can you show an instance where echad refers to multiple subjects as literally one?

 

8 hours ago, tek91 said:

echad in deuteronomy absolutely cannot be meant to show a numerical single number.

Why would Deuteronomy tell its audience that their God is a unity of multiple divine beings when it is busy refuting precisely the concept of multiple gods?

8 hours ago, tek91 said:

If God was trying to convey that his nature is absolutely 1 in numerical value would he not use a word like Yachid which from concordance would suggest one and only or singular?

Yachid is not the numerical one, as the concordance shows. It literally means only. This "only" can be in terms of quality and quantity. Isaac is the only son in quality (from Sarah) not in quantity (Ishmael was already born).

For the last time:

Did you ask a schoolboy to start counting in Hebrew using "yachid"? 

Under how many plants did Hagar place her son?

On how many mountains did Abraham take his son?

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17 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Do you mean they become literally one? Can you show an instance where echad refers to multiple subjects as literally one?

No im saying that God is using the word echad to express two people becoming one. If I wanted to express a word that would emphasize the numerical value of one alone. I would not use that.

There's multiple occassions of echad being used to express more then one things being one in the same way we see God's unity.

For instance in the HB it expresses God being in heaven and his spirit being on the Earth yet they are one(echad). The same way echad describes objects in unity.

btw What do you believe God's Spirit is? 

 

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17 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Why would Deuteronomy tell its audience that their God is a unity of multiple divine beings when it is busy refuting precisely the concept of multiple gods?

Deuteronomy was talking about the pagan idols off the time. As you are well aware off there was alot of idol woship in that time and GOD was telling the jews to not worship those gods but only worship God alone. Echad

He was not saying his essense is a numerical value

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

HB it expresses God being in heaven and his spirit being on the Earth yet they are one(echad

It does not say that.

The remainder of the post is a rehash of points already adressed. Please answer this post carefully https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072305-the-pre-existence-of-jesus/?do=findComment&comment=3363718

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14 hours ago, Nad_M said:

God's holy spirt or His evil spirit Judges9:23,1Sam16:14,Isa19:14?

Not the same Holy Spirit. Read 1 Samuel. It says After the Spirit of the Lord DEPARTED from Saul, a spirit of distress from the Lord began to torment him.

I'm talking about the Spirit of the Lord which Departed from Saul. That's the Holy Spirit.

What do you believe God's Spirit is?

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

Not the same Holy Spirit. Read 1 Samuel. It says After the Spirit of the Lord DEPARTED from Saul, a spirit of distress from the Lord began to torment him

Sure. A spirit of distress (evil or perversness in literal translations) from the Lord came to Saul after the previous spirit from the Lord departed. Note that there was no prior departure of a spirit when God's evil spirit was poured on the people in Isa19 and Judges9.

This evil spirit from God, like the holy spirit from God is not a person, a word manufactured by later Church authorities. It is a metaphysical manifestation of God's presence in this world, just like the hand of God or the arm of God. In reality, this distinction between God and His spirit is not even taught in the Christian Bible but is actually a later development together with the trinity doctrine.

To be more precises even the expression "holy spirit" is inexistant in the HB.

see this https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/04/cira-international-reveal-jewish.html?m=1

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9 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. A spirit of distress (evil or perversness in literal translations) from the Lord came to Saul after the previous spirit from the Lord departed. Note that there was no prior departure of a spirit when God's evil spirit was poured on the people in Isa19 and Judges9.

This evil spirit from God, like the holy spirit from God is not a person, a word manufactured by later Church authorities. It is a metaphysical manifestation of God's presence in this world, just like the hand of God or the arm of God. In reality, this distinction between God and His spirit is not even taught in the Christian Bible but is actually a later development together with the trinity doctrine.

To be more precises even the expression "holy spirit" is inexistant in the HB.

see this https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/04/cira-international-reveal-jewish.html?m=1

Thats not the same Spirit as you are well aware God can give us spirits as we are made in the image of God. Yet God himself has a Divine Spirit that is One (echad) with him.

Why in Genesis does Gods Ruach ha Kodesh has an ordering power. The bible says there was darkness and a formless void and God's Spirit hovered over the water. Basically God's Spirit came down on the formless World and this descent produced the creation miracle. The changed the voidness and created form?

Why does God's Ruach create life in people.

It was the Ruach that was  breathed into the nostrils and man became a loving thing according to Genesis?

How can his Spirit be a creation if it has such power and was present creating form and giving life?

How can this be unless the Holy Spirit has always existed with God and is part of Gods nature?

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15 hours ago, tek91 said:

Thats not the same Spirit

Sure. In the HB, God's evil spirit is different than God's holy spirit.

What makes one divine and the other not?

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15 hours ago, tek91 said:

Basically God's Spirit came down on the formless World and this descent produced the creation miracle

Hovering over the waters. Water was already created.

The formless earth is also mentioned prior to the spirit of God.

Further, Gen1 says "spirit" only. Was it the holy or the evil spirit from God? Keep in mind that the God of the HB creates evil Deut30:15,Isa45:7,1Sam16:14.

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7 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Sure. In the HB, God's evil spirit is different than God's holy spirit.

What makes one divine and the other not?

Theres a difference between God's Spirit and a spirit.

For instance when the bible says God spirit or The Spirit of the Lord is different to when the bible says God puts a spirit on a person.

There are many spirits but there is only one Holy Spirit which belongs to God(his spirit) and was in the beginning with God.

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6 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Further, Gen1 says "spirit" only. Was it the holy or the evil spirit from God? Keep in mind that the God of the HB creates evil Deut30:15,Isa45:7,1Sam16:14.

What does Deuteronomy 30:15 have to do with God being evil? He judges evil nations?

About Isaiah 45:7 absolutely God created evil it does not mean God is evil. He created everything evil included. Where do you think evil came from thin air? That doesnt mean God enjoys evil or is evil.

Evil is put to give us a choice to serve God and do good or serve evil. God did not make us robots he gave us a free will to willingly love and worship him or love sin and evil.

There cant be a choice without a decision.

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it

This verse explains it perfectly.

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1 hour ago, tek91 said:

What does Deuteronomy 30:15 have to do with God being evil?

Nothing. 

The God of the HB is the direct cause of evil. The hebrew is the same in all 3 verses.

1 hour ago, tek91 said:

God did not make us robots he gave us a free will to willingly love and worship him or love sin and evil.

Since God defines good as following His commandements among other things, and that man is capable of making that choice by himself, what was the need for God to send himself on a suicide mission?

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2 hours ago, tek91 said:

There are many spirits but there is only one Holy Spirit which belongs to God(his spirit) and was in the beginning with God.

Yes like God's arm or hand. 2 extra members can now be added to the godhead.

As to being there in the beginning, interestingly Genesis1 introduces the spirit (neither holy nor evil) of God after it speaks of the earth.

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2 hours ago, tek91 said:

The Spirit of the Lord is different to when the bible says God puts a spirit on a person.

Both are defined as emanating from God. Why would one be divine and the other not? 

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On 10/14/2021 at 11:44 AM, tek91 said:

Yeshua did include himself he said he and the Father are one. He also said if you have seen him you have seen the Father 

No he didn’t.  Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never claimed divinity.  Show us in the Bible where he explicitly says “worship me” or “I am god”.  Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is saying if you accept him as a prophet you have recognized god.  The same logic is also true of Christians who refuse to accept Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are the same as the Jews who refused to accept Christ (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) during his advent.  See the problem with Christians is they are taking their texts too literally when their books have been tampered with…which is a dangerous combination.

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On 10/20/2021 at 3:38 PM, Nad_M said:

The God of the HB is the direct cause of evil. The hebrew is the same in all 3 verses.

Where do you believe evil came from? We believe good and evil was created to give us a decision like I said we have a choise to do what is good or evil. God did not want us to be robots we have a free will.

Don't you believe that? If not what is your view on the subject?

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On 10/20/2021 at 3:38 PM, Nad_M said:

ce God defines good as following His commandements among other things, and that man is capable of making that choice by himself, what was the need for God to send himself on a suicide mission?

Why do you keep saying suicide mission? Yeshua did not die for himself he died for others. Martydom would be a better definition of what Yeshua did.

Are you trolling? 

The commandments was given to reveal Gods standard of absolute righteousness. 

As we all know no man could fulfill the law and be righteous. Even the torah/tanach and NT explains that our righteousness are like filthy rags, and that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That's why God emphasised CLEARLY a substitude, in the OT by animal sacrifices and in the NT by Yeshua' blood.

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On 10/20/2021 at 3:46 PM, Nad_M said:

like God's arm or hand. 2 extra members can now be added to the godhead.

As to being there in the beginning, interestingly Genesis1 introduces the spirit (neither holy nor evil) of God after it speaks of the earth.

Now you are just being silly.

The bible clearly states his Spirit or the Spirit of the Lord meaning God has a Spirit.

Just like we all have a spirit God has a Spirit.

His Spirit according to torah/tanach dwelled with prophets, edifies, comes as a breath, gave people, created and sustained life, spoke Gods word, promoted holyness, addressed evil, regenerates and insdwelles believers.

Basically the same Spirit of God in the torah/tanach is the same Holy Spirit in the NT. 

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On 10/20/2021 at 3:55 PM, Nad_M said:

are defined as emanating from God. Why would one be divine and the other not? 

There is a difference God can give many spirits as you know we all have a spirit. The key word is God's Spirit there is a Spirit that belongs to the Lord as the bible describes it as his Spirit.

The evil spirit mentioned is never mentioned as Gods Spirit or as the Spirit of the Lord.

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