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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why many Jews do not believe Yeshua is the Messiah.

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Luke 24:13 And behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. 14And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. 17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; 23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. 24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself....

The Jews of that time similar to now we're expecting Messiah to come as an Earthly king and conquer. Which will happen when he comes the 2nd time and establishes his 1000 year reign. As the Resurrected Yeshua explained to them through Moses and the prophets that Messiah had to FIRST die and suffer for remission of sin.

MY friends both Jew and Muslim. If you do not accept the Lamb of God and Yeshua's blood. You Will die in sin. On Judgement day you will have ALL your sins on you and you will be eternally seperated from God.

Please come to reason. Accept The Lamb Of God. Accept that he died for you.

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  • The title was changed to Why many Jews do not believe Yeshua is the Messiah.
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On 9/28/2021 at 10:05 PM, tek91 said:

If you do not accept the Lamb of God and Yeshua's blood. You Will die in sin.

Will the Christian God's unconditional love still apply to those that will be sent to hell forever?

On 9/28/2021 at 10:05 PM, tek91 said:

As the Resurrected Yeshua explained to them through Moses and the prophets that Messiah had to FIRST die and suffer for remission of sin.

 

Moses, the most prominent Jewish prophet, never says a word about a messiah supposed to re-establish the Israelites as a nation under God. And yet this messianic king is the most anticipated religious figure of the entire Jewish scriptures? Moses predicts the Israelites' future disobedience and destructions, as well as rehabilitation, but never speaks in that context of the royal messiah supposed to achieve what they would later claim will be precisely his role Deut31-32. 
 
The fact is that by Jesus' time and their successive humiliations at the hands of their enemies, the prophecy of Deut18, predicting the coming of a legislating and governing figure that is to establish a new nation under a new law, which they will be bound to follow and support, became garbled with a davidic royal, supposed to bring back their own former glory above the nations, as well as re-introduce their own law that became obsolete with the loss of their right to exercize it. This is seen by their vague allusion to "the prophet" on one side and "the messiah" on the other, when they came questionning John the Baptist as to his identity, as reported in the NT. They knew this prophet was still awaited but lost the purpose of the prophecy related to him, as well as the indicators that would lead them to recognize him. However, the evidence was not blotted out entirely hence some among the most learned Jews in the prophet Muhammad's time claiming to 
"recognize him as they know their own sons".
 
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Speaking as a former Jew before reverting to Shia Islam, the reason they don’t accept yeshua (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Mashiach is because of what Christians turned Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) into.  A Jew is not going to renounce G-d for the Trinity.  They would rather be sent to the gas chambers all over again then ever becoming a Christian…just saying.  That and the crusades, the inquisitions…not a pretty history for Jews to want to become Christians.

This is the beauty of Islam.  It brings the Jews and Christians together:  one god (Jews like) and embracing Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (Christians like).

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8 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Will the Christian God's unconditional love still apply to those that will be sent to hell forever?

Don't muslims believe in a physical hell as well?

We believe going to hell is the persons decision as they denied the Fathers loving gift of the blood atonement so in doing so they choose to die in sin and on Judgement day will be judged by the perfect righteous judge and will be found guilty. Hell is the penalty.

Just like if you murder and go to a court and are found guilty you wont be sent to a nice paradise right? You will be punished.

Its Righteous Judgement..

If hell is illogical then would not the quran be illogical as well? Hell is taught in your book.

8 hours ago, Nad_M said:
Moses, the most prominent Jewish prophet, never says a word about a messiah supposed to re-establish the Israelites as a nation under God. And yet this messianic king is the most anticipated religious figure of the entire Jewish scriptures? Moses predicts the Israelites' future disobedience and destructions, as well as rehabilitation, but never speaks in that context of the royal messiah supposed to achieve what they would later claim will be precisely his role Deut31-32. 
 
The fact is that by Jesus' time and their successive humiliations at the hands of their enemies, the prophecy of Deut18, predicting the coming of a legislating and governing figure that is to establish a new nation under a new law, which they will be bound to follow and support, became garbled with a davidic royal, supposed to bring back their own former glory above the nations, as well as re-introduce their own law that became obsolete with the loss of their right to exercize it. This is seen by their vague allusion to "the prophet" on one side and "the messiah" on the other, when they came questionning John the Baptist as to his identity, as reported in the NT. They knew this prophet was still awaited but lost the purpose of the prophecy related to him, as well as the indicators that would lead them to recognize him. However, the evidence was not blotted out entirely hence some among the most learned Jews in the prophet Muhammad's time claiming to 

Jesus speaks of him being in the books and the prophets.

As for the teaching of him dying both Isaiah and Daniel speaks of it.

Isaiah speaks of the suffering messiah who dies and atones for the sins of Israel.

Daniel speaks of messiah coming before the destruction of the second temple in the 70 weeks which every jew knows means weeks of years. The messiah would finish trangression, put an end to sin, atone for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness which Glory to God he delivered right on time :)

The prophecies that have not been fulfilled are going to be fulfilled in his second coming as is taught in our books including the book of Revelations.

Many Jews understand of a Messiah ben Joseph and a Messiah ben David.

The messiah first came to suffer and die for sins and like manner he will come back in the clouds as the Lion of the tribe of Judah and not as a Lamb.

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3 hours ago, Andrew Israel said:

Speaking as a former Jew before reverting to Shia Islam, the reason they don’t accept yeshua (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) Mashiach is because of what Christians turned Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) into.  A Jew is not going to renounce G-d for the Trinity.  They would rather be sent to the gas chambers all over again then ever becoming a Christian…just saying.  That and the crusades, the inquisitions…not a pretty history for Jews to want to become Christians.

This is the beauty of Islam.  It brings the Jews and Christians together:  one god (Jews like) and embracing Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (Christians like).

I don't think it's fair to take out the gospels because of what people did using Jesus name.

That is like me throwing the quran out and saying aha its garbage look at what Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein did.

You cannot judge the teachings of a book based on its followers. 

I believe you would agree with me on this.

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23 minutes ago, tek91 said:

I don't think it's fair to take out the gospels because of what people did using Jesus name.

That is like me throwing the quran out and saying aha its garbage look at what Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein did.

You cannot judge the teachings of a book based on its followers. 

I believe you would agree with me on this.

Your right.

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8 hours ago, tek91 said:

Don't muslims believe in a physical hell as well?

That is not the point. How does eternal torture fit the idea of God's unconditional love? 

 

8 hours ago, tek91 said:

Jesus speaks of him being in the books and the prophets

Where does Moses speak of the notion of a messianic king supposed to redeem Israel and restore the law?

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7 hours ago, Nad_M said:

is not the point. How does eternal torture fit the idea of God's unconditional love? 

Thanks for the reply Nad_M

That is a tough question.

If God is loving why would he send anyone to hell?

One thing I would say "Is not Hell chosen by the individual?"

For instance, God gives people a free will to believe in him or not. If men choose to not want God in their lives God will not force them to love him against their free. Hell is seperation from God a place without all the gifts and qualities of God, which is what that individual chose for themselves. 

God being loving doesnt mean he loves everything. Does God love murder, pride, abuse, rape? If God is loving would not he hate these things? 

So if a person refuses to have their sins forgiven should not they be punished? Why would God allow sin in his presence.

God is loving and he is also fair and executes righteous judgement.

For instance do you believe because God is love that Hitler should go to heaven? 

If you read the torah and the gospels a loving God made a way to be reconciled and forgiven of sin in the torah and tanachs through animal sacrifice and in the gospels with his lamb the final sacrifice 

So if men choose to deny this then they are in disobedience to God which God hates and will be punished.

I am not sure what you believe of our God but he is not someone prancing around throwing flowers at people.

God is loving and merciful but he is also angry with the wicked every day and will execute Righteous Judgement.

I am very surprised you brought this up as I was thinking muslims believe in a place of torment for the wicked as well.

7 hours ago, Nad_M said:

does Moses speak of the notion of a messianic king supposed to redeem Israel and restore the law?

From what was written Jesus was teaching that there are things written in the books of Moses and the prophets concerning himself. As to what that is takes alot of studying.

I dont believe it is just every prophet saying everything that messiah will do. The prophets reveal messiah in harmony. The torah/tanach speak of revelations of messiah not just through one prophet but through the different prophets.

As for Moses he spoke of Messiah as he mentioned to the people the prophet that would come like unto himself.

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31 minutes ago, tek91 said:

God is loving why would he send anyone to hell?

That is not the question. What needs clarifying is the notion of an unconditionally loving God. It contradicts the idea of eternal torture for refusing to believe in that very God.

If God's love is conditional on the other hand, then punishing those that reject Him is logical. But that doesn't fit the idea of "God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son".

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37 minutes ago, tek91 said:

If you read the torah and the gospels a loving God made a way to be reconciled and forgiven of sin in the torah and tanachs through animal sacrifice and in the gospels with his lamb the final sacrifice

There are many well known ways, listed in the Torah, to be forgiven from sin other than pouring blood.

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40 minutes ago, tek91 said:

As for Moses he spoke of Messiah as he mentioned to the people the prophet that would come like unto himself.

This is a post-mosaic development meant at consoling the exiled Jews. There is no notion of a messianic salvific figure anywhere in the 5 books of Moses.

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5 hours ago, Nad_M said:

This is a post-mosaic development meant at consoling the exiled Jews. There is no notion of a messianic salvific figure anywhere in the 5 books of Moses.

Btw, what do you say about those verses in Hebrew bible (in late Jewish scriptures) that talks about the prophecy of Messiah will come and at that time every nations shall come toward the jews and hold them saying that you were the right ones and God is with you? 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.  Zechariah 8:23

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6 hours ago, Nad_M said:

That is not the question. What needs clarifying is the notion of an unconditionally loving God. It contradicts the idea of eternal torture for refusing to believe in that very God.

If God's love is conditional on the other hand, then punishing those that reject Him is logical. But that doesn't fit the idea of "God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son".

Sorry but what verse is the word unconditional love used?

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6 hours ago, Nad_M said:

This is a post-mosaic development meant at consoling the exiled Jews. There is no notion of a messianic salvific figure anywhere in the 5 books of Moses.

Who is that Prophet Moses spoke about?

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Hi @tek91 all prophets (عليه السلام) likewise prophet Moses(عليه السلام) have spoken about prophet Muhammad (pbu) as final messenger & savior of everyone likewise Jews which they have settled in town of Yathrib  which  has been called Medina which they have taught  all signs & predictions about final savior to idol worshipers of two tribes of Aws & Khazraj which they have recognized final prophet (pbu) according to information which they have received from Jews nevertheless Jews denied him because of their false idea which final prophet will appear between Jew community of Mecca or Medina .

Quote

Imam Ali: Like the Position of Haroon to Musa

Upon further reflection, we realize that the context of this verse is the journey of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) to the appointed place in Mount Sinai where he had a private “dialogue” with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The exact place of this meeting is traced to be in the holy land of Karbala –  a message that conveys to us that the divine chain of revelations and prophets all emanate from one source and for one purpose. The verse further points out that during his absence in this divine journey, he left a successor and a caretaker to watch over the people. This guardian was his brother Prophet Haroon. With further contemplation, one can easily make the correlation of this verse to the grand event which we celebrate and honor on the 18th day of Dhul-Hijjah, Eid Al-Ghadeer.  Indeed there is great resemblance in the story of Prophets Musa and Haroon to the Holy Prophet (sa) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). It was the day of divine appointment of the successorship, guardianship, and leadership of Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام) after the Holy Prophet’s anticipated departure from this world.

We are to be reminded of the most authentic Hadeeth Al-Manzila (Tradition of the Ranks) where the Holy Prophet (sa) said to Imam Ali (عليه السلام), “Your position to me is like the position of Harun to Musa, except that there will be no prophet after me.” (Bukhari, Vol 5, Book 59, #700)

If Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) through divine commandment found it necessary to appoint a successor during his absence of merely 40 days during his lifetime, isn’t more worthy that the Seal of Prophets also have a divinely appointed successor to act as guardian after his departure from this life to safeguard a religion which is the seal of religions sent to all of mankind?!

If the people of Musa (عليه السلام) easily became misguided as they worshiped a golden calf when their Prophet has only been absent for few days, shouldn’t the concern and protection be greater when Prophet Muhammad (sa) departs this world and a newly born religion has emerged?  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions in the Quran that Prophet Haroon was “blamed” for the failure of his people and not being able to assume his role of temporary successorship.  Yet after further knowledge and explanation, Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) understands that Haroon is excused since the people oppressed him and neglected his role of authority.  This reminds us of the common argument that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should have claimed his right for successorship by force, yet through the story of Musa and Haroon (عليه السلام), we find the divine answer given to us!

The appointment of Prophet Haroon was indeed a test to the people of Bani Israel and they failed that test when they did not follow Haroon and instead they worshipped the golden calf.  As cited in the Quran, Haroon said to them, “O my people! You are being tried in this, and verily, your Lord is (Allah) the Most Beneficent, so follow me and obey my order.” [20:87]

https://en.shafaqna.com/48785/imam-ali-like-the-position-of-haroon-to-musa/

https://www.shiavault.com/books/the-prophets-of-islam/chapters/5-prophet-musa/

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Hello Ashvazdanghe

Tks for your input :)

 there's a debate between a Muslim and Jew concerning the prophet like Moses that I saw recently and is very interesting and would like too share and see your opinion...

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Btw, what do you say about those verses in Hebrew bible (in late Jewish scriptures) that talks about the prophecy of Messiah will come and at that time every nations shall come toward the jews and hold them saying that you were the right ones and God is with you? 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.  Zechariah 8:23

Please refer to this post https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072303-why-many-jews-do-not-believe-yeshua-is-the-messiah/?do=findComment&comment=3363193

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9 hours ago, tek91 said:

Sorry but what verse is the word unconditional love used?

Nowhere. It is the implication of the Christian doctrine. If salvation through God's loving sacrifice of his only begotten son is conditional, then it invalidates the idea of Jesus' death as a universal atonement.

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9 hours ago, tek91 said:

Who is that Prophet Moses spoke about?

One that will establish a new nation under a new law, as per the context of the prophecy. None after Moses came close to fulfilling the role, including Jesus, until Muhammad did.

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16 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Nowhere. It is the implication of the Christian doctrine. If salvation through God's loving sacrifice of his only begotten son is conditional, then it invalidates the idea of Jesus' death as a universal atonement.

I'm not here to defend Christian doctrine. I want to show what is taught in scriptures. I also am trying my best to defend the attacks on OT and NT.

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16 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Those HB passages where forgiveness is granted through other means than blood are well known.

Nowhere does God describe another method of sin atonement besides blood.

If you mean when God asked impoverished jews to bring fine flour the fine flour had to be mixed with the blood of the animals.

It was blood for blood the blood of the unblemished animal would be sacrificed for the wicked blood.

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16 hours ago, Nad_M said:

One that will establish a new nation under a new law, as per the context of the prophecy. None after Moses came close to fulfilling the role, including Jesus, until Muhammad did.

Did you see the debate I placed here between Dr. Michael Brown a Messianic Jew and Nadir Ahmed a Muslim?

Michael Brown explained using the hebrew text letter for letter how it absolutely cannot be Mohammad. 

He showed every time "from your brethren" was used it always was talking about the Israelites and not the Ishmaelites.

He showed 11 times in the same book of Deuteronomy.

Nadir Ahmed could not answer...

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4 hours ago, tek91 said:

I want to show what is taught in scriptures. I also am trying my best to defend the attacks on OT and NT.

Hi , This is exactly  defending  from Christian  doctrine which until now you have done it in similar fashion  of typical Christian  missioners which  I have not seen anything  new in your common formulated procedure  likewise rest of Christian  preachers .

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

I'm not here to defend Christian doctrine. I want to show what is taught in scriptures. I also am trying my best to defend the attacks on OT and NT.

Was Jesus' sacrifice a universal amd timeless atonement for humanity's sins?

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6 hours ago, tek91 said:

If you mean when God asked impoverished jews to bring fine flour the fine flour had to be mixed with the blood of the animals.

Impovrished but nevertheless required to sacrifice an animal?

There are many ways, with or without a Temple, regardless of the person's wealth, to seek forgiveness from the God of the HB.

Please see this https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/05/islam-critiqued-dreams-of-transilvania.html?m=1

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8 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Was Jesus' sacrifice a universal amd timeless atonement for humanity's sins?

The bible does not say those words. What the bible says is that it was for remission of the sins of the World. The bible also says it's for those who receive by faith.

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8 hours ago, Nad_M said:

Impovrished but nevertheless required to sacrifice an animal?

There are many ways, with or without a Temple, regardless of the person's wealth, to seek forgiveness from the God of the HB.

Please see this https://truthanvil.blogspot.com/2020/05/islam-critiqued-dreams-of-transilvania.html?m=1

If you read the bible when the temple was destroyed was because of sin of the Nation it was punishment on Israel. No where does it say the Jewish were forgiven of sin.

And no where is mention of atonement of sin without blood being involved.  "the sin offering."

There are verses that say that when Jews return to God that he would forgive their sins. They forget to point out returning to Adonai required following the leviticul laws of animal sacrifices.

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8 hours ago, Nad_M said:

t does not mean his interlocutor was right.

Really then can you answer his objection. Everytime in Deuteronomy that the hebrew words "from your brethren"was used it was always talking about from their midst, from the Israelites.

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34 minutes ago, tek91 said:

And no where is mention of atonement of sin without blood being involved. 

Of course it does, before during and after the temple.

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33 minutes ago, tek91 said:

Everytime in Deuteronomy that the hebrew words "from your brethren"was used it was always talking about from their midst, from the Israelites.

Not really.

The key word here is brethren and how the Torah uses it in relation to the Israelites. 

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