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In the Name of God بسم الله

Refuting the nasibi narrative of Karbala

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zahralzu

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https://youtu.be/FLJXM5W6IQo

 

  1. Is maqtal mikhnaf really inauthentic and narrated mainly by an anonymous hameed bin Muslim? 
  2. Do we really have a narration from imam baqir (عليه السلام) that says imam huseyn (عليه السلام) was willing to pledge to yazid? Apparently hidden in " the spirit of Islam" by Justice Ameer Ali as well and many other shia books
  3. How authentic are details like the prohibition of water and the amputation of imam Abbas’s (عليه السلام) arms? 
  4. Please refute the annoying claim that imams Hassan (عليه السلام) and huseyn (عليه السلام) had different mindsets, and that imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was “pro peace” while imam huseyn was “pro warl, and that imam Hassan (عليه السلام) criticised imam Ali (عليه السلام) for waging siffin, while imam huseyn (عليه السلام) criticised imam Hassan for making peace with muwayah 
  5. Did abdullah bin Jafar divorce sayda zainab (عليه السلام) (not that I don’t already vilanise ibn Jafar for not going to karbala) And why did sayda zainab (عليه السلام) continue to live in sham after karbala? 
  6. How was imam al sajad as spared given the barbarianism of ibn saads army? 
  7. Was Muslim bin aqeel (عليه السلام) really hesitant in going to kufa? And why was he appointed anyway to inspect the situation when imam (عليه السلام) has ilm al ghayb? 

I’ve been searching left and right for thorough refutations, i thought these were easy silly arguments, I didn’t think it would be this hard to find satisfying answers, all “refutations” I’ve come across are of Shias saying “do u not realise huseyn is the leader of the youth of paradise let me prove to u that yazid drank alcahol” which has been dissatisfying to say the least and only adds to the yazidi narrative’s “victory”, please direct me to good sources! 

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All of these can be refuted by watching the words of Yazid as mentioned in Tabari:

الطبري في تاريخه 8/187 

ليت أشياخي ببدر شهدوا ***** جزع الخزرج من وقع الأسل
قد قتلنا القرم من ساداتكم ***** وعدلنا ميل بدر فاعتدل
فأهلوا واستهلوا فرحا ***** ثم قالوا يا يزيد لا تسل
لست من خندف إن لم أنتقم ***** من بنى أحمد ما كان فعل
لعبت هاشم بالملك فلا ***** خبر جاء ولا وحى نزل

The followers of Yazid (L) are trying their best to get rid from the crime which he committed. His words are displaying his faith and the faith of his ancestors. 

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14 hours ago, zahralzu said:

https://youtu.be/FLJXM5W6IQo

 

  1. Is maqtal mikhnaf really inauthentic and narrated mainly by an anonymous hameed bin Muslim? 
  2. Do we really have a narration from imam baqir (عليه السلام) that says imam huseyn (عليه السلام) was willing to pledge to yazid? Apparently hidden in " the spirit of Islam" by Justice Ameer Ali as well and many other shia books
  3. How authentic are details like the prohibition of water and the amputation of imam Abbas’s (عليه السلام) arms? 
  4. Please refute the annoying claim that imams Hassan (عليه السلام) and huseyn (عليه السلام) had different mindsets, and that imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was “pro peace” while imam huseyn was “pro warl, and that imam Hassan (عليه السلام) criticised imam Ali (عليه السلام) for waging siffin, while imam huseyn (عليه السلام) criticised imam Hassan for making peace with muwayah 
  5. Did abdullah bin Jafar divorce sayda zainab (عليه السلام) (not that I don’t already vilanise ibn Jafar for not going to karbala) And why did sayda zainab (عليه السلام) continue to live in sham after karbala? 
  6. How was imam al sajad as spared given the barbarianism of ibn saads army? 
  7. Was Muslim bin aqeel (عليه السلام) really hesitant in going to kufa? And why was he appointed anyway to inspect the situation when imam (عليه السلام) has ilm al ghayb? 

I’ve been searching left and right for thorough refutations, i thought these were easy silly arguments, I didn’t think it would be this hard to find satisfying answers, all “refutations” I’ve come across are of Shias saying “do u not realise huseyn is the leader of the youth of paradise let me prove to u that yazid drank alcahol” which has been dissatisfying to say the least and only adds to the yazidi narrative’s “victory”, please direct me to good sources! 

1) Mikhnaf is the one of the oldest accounts of Karbala. You can also read up on Karbala in Tarikh-e-Tabari but bear in mind he was anti-AhlulBayt

2) During negotiations with Umar ibn Sa'ad, one option Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) laid in fron tof Umar bin Sa'ad was to let him go directly to Sham to negotiate with Yazid. This is no different from Imam Hassan negotiating with Muawiya or the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) negotiating with the kuffar of Mecca.

3) Very authentic - Tarikh-e-Tabari will confirm it too.

4) Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) raised an army of 12,000 men to fight Muawiya and only signed the Peace Treaty with Muawiya when the 12,000 deserted him. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) honored the Peace Treaty after the martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). They had the same mindset but different circumstances.

5) No, he did not divorce - this is Ummayya propaganda. Post Karbala, Hz Zainab played a pivotal role in spreading the messaging of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). She was exiled from city to city due being very vocal about Imam Hussain's (عليه السلام) martyrdom. This would result in unrest in the city so the governor would have her removed. Her role post Karbala did not end once they reached Medina but started there. Its a shame we dont cover her history more.

6) He was sick and did not come out to fight. It was against arab custom to fight sick so he was made a POW.

7) Muslim bin Aqeel was not the only messenger of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Imam sent messengers to several cities in Iraq including Basra and others. He was sent to inspect the situation but more to make the people aware of Imam Hussain's mission and refusal to pledge allegiance to Yazid. 

Please let me know if you want more details behind any of this. I will admit I am weak on #5.

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10 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

1) Mikhnaf is the one of the oldest accounts of Karbala. You can also read up on Karbala in Tarikh-e-Tabari but bear in mind he was anti-AhlulBayt

2) During negotiations with Umar ibn Sa'ad, one option Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) laid in fron tof Umar bin Sa'ad was to let him go directly to Sham to negotiate with Yazid. This is no different from Imam Hassan negotiating with Muawiya or the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) negotiating with the kuffar of Mecca.

3) Very authentic - Tarikh-e-Tabari will confirm it too.

4) Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) raised an army of 12,000 men to fight Muawiya and only signed the Peace Treaty with Muawiya when the 12,000 deserted him. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) honored the Peace Treaty after the martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). They had the same mindset but different circumstances.

5) No, he did not divorce - this is Ummayya propaganda. Post Karbala, Hz Zainab played a pivotal role in spreading the messaging of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). She was exiled from city to city due being very vocal about Imam Hussain's (عليه السلام) martyrdom. This would result in unrest in the city so the governor would have her removed. Her role post Karbala did not end once they reached Medina but started there. Its a shame we dont cover her history more.

6) He was sick and did not come out to fight. It was against arab custom to fight sick so he was made a POW.

7) Muslim bin Aqeel was not the only messenger of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Imam sent messengers to several cities in Iraq including Basra and others. He was sent to inspect the situation but more to make the people aware of Imam Hussain's mission and refusal to pledge allegiance to Yazid. 

Please let me know if you want more details behind any of this. I will admit I am weak on #5.

Thank you very much for this! 
im just hoping you also have examples of tabari’s nasabism? Because due to his accepting “shia” narratives and narrations like karbala, and due to including blasphemous narrations like satanic verses, Sunnis have formulated a rediculous conspiracy that he’s “secretly shia destroying Islam from within”, and if they don’t go to this extent then they’ll at least reject what tabari has to say about karbala because it’s “too shia”…

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On 9/10/2021 at 9:06 AM, zahralzu said:

Did abdullah bin Jafar divorce sayda zainab (عليه السلام) (not that I don’t already vilanise ibn Jafar for not going to karbala) And why did sayda zainab (عليه السلام) continue to live in sham after karbala? 

Did Hazrat Zainab (sa) get divorced before traveling to Karbala?
Concise answer
One of the contemporary writers [1] has proposed a theory that there was a divorce and separation between Abdullah Ibn Ja'far and Hazrat Zainab (sa) before Hazrat Zainab went to Karbala, but this theory has no valid historical reason, but only an interpretation. It is speculated based on  the lack of historical narratives about how the couple lived after the Karbala incident.
On the other hand; There are quotes and reasons that undermine such an understanding; Here are some of the quotes and reasons:
a.According to some quotes; After returning from Shaamr, Hazrat Zainab (sa) lived with her husband Abdullah: “There was a famine (year of assembly) in Medina. Zainab and her husband Abdullah ibn Ja'far moved to Sham where they had a piece of land. Zeinab died there in 65 AH and was buried in the same place. According to research; This quote is mentioned in the following books:

[1] This theory is attributed to Dr. Ayesha bint Al-Shati, a famous Egyptian writer.

Quote


1. The book "Khairat Hassan", [2] written by Mohammad Hassan Khan Etemad Al-Saltanah (died 1313 AH). [3] and the Minister of Education of Iran during the Qajar period. [4]This work is about the biographies of about 912 famous women of Islam and the sample poems of female speakers in three volumes. The author has translated this book from the famous women - written by Mohammad Zehni Effendi from Ottoman literature - and has added the biographies of many geniuses and scholars. [5]
2. "offering Alzayryn and B. Alnazryn", written by Sheikh Abbas Qomi, [6] which complement the book "greeting Za'ir" light narrator (d. 1320 AH) is. And Sheikh Abbas Qomi quotes this theory from Muhaddith Nouri. [7] But Sheikh Abbas Qomi himself does not accept that the death of Hazrat Zainab ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is in the evening. [8]
3. The book "Nozha Ahl al-Harmain in the history of repairing the martyrs", [9]Compiled by Seyyed Hassan Ibn Hadi Sadruddin Ameli Isfahani Kazemi (died 1354 AH). [10]
According to these narrations, there has been no divorce or separation between Abdullah ibn Ja'far and Hazrat Zainab (sa); However, authentic historical books do not mention the issue of the Muja'ah (famine).
 


Two.It seems that the suspicion of divorce and separation of Hazrat Zainab from Abdullah bin Ja'far is rooted in the fact that Abdullah did not agree with the departure of Hazrat Zainab (sa) to Karbala, nevertheless that Abdullah not only accompanied Hazrat Zainab (sa) with Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) He did not object that he even sent his children to Karbala and they were martyred in the service  of Imam (عليه السلام).

Quote

 Abdullah also held a mourning ceremony at his home, and his cousin and the people came to visit and offer condolences. Abdullah turned to his companions and said: "I praise God Almighty [in any calamity] even for the martyrdom of Hussein (عليه السلام). If I had not helped Hussein with my hands, I would have had at least two children with He has helped and accompanied . I swear to God, if I were present with him, I would like not to be separated from him so that I would be killed in his service! "By God, what makes me give up my two children and ease their suffering is that they are lost in the endurance and help of my brother and cousin Hussein." [11] The fact that Abdullah sent his sons to help Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and also his words show that he loved Hussein (عليه السلام) in his heart and did not resent him, as in his letter, Hussein Ibn Ali (عليه السلام) calls the light of the earth and the light of the saved and the hope of the believers. [12]
 


Therefore, this theory seems to be nothing more than speculation and has no credible evidence, and we have not found any other historical scholars who have confirmed this theory.
 
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On 9/10/2021 at 9:36 AM, zahralzu said:

Is maqtal mikhnaf really inauthentic and narrated mainly by an anonymous hameed bin Muslim? 

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf/introduction

You will find details about Abu Mikhnaf and reliability of his work in the above link.

حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن مسرور (رحمه الله)، قال: حدثنا الحسين بن محمد بن عامر، عن عمه عبد الله بن عامر، عن إبراهيم بن أبي محمود، قال: قال الرضا (عليه السلام): إن المحرم شهر كان أهل الجاهلية يحرمون فيه القتال، فاستحلت فيه دماؤنا، وهتكت فيه حرمتنا، وسبي فيه ذرارينا ونساؤنا، وأضرمت النيران في مضاربنا، وانتهب ما فيها من ثقلنا، ولم ترع لرسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) حرمة في أمرنا. إن يوم الحسين أقرح جفوننا، وأسبل دموعنا، وأذل عزيزنا، بأرض (2) كرب وبلاء، أورثتنا الكرب والبلاء، إلى يوم الانقضاء، فعلى مثل الحسين فليبك الباكون، فإن البكاء يحط الذنوب العظام.
ثم قال (عليه السلام): كان أبي (صلوات الله عليه) إذا دخل شهر المحرم لا يرى ضاحكا، وكانت الكآبة تغلب عليه حتى يمضي منه عشرة أيام، فإذا كان يوم العاشر كان ذلك اليوم يوم مصيبته وحزنه وبكائه، ويقول: هو اليوم الذي قتل فيه الحسين (صلوات الله عليه)

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1134_الأمالي-الشيخ-الصدوق/الصفحة_189#top

The authentic reports we have with us are sufficient for reasoning as to why we remember Karbala and why we mourn for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)

On 9/10/2021 at 9:36 AM, zahralzu said:

Do we really have a narration from imam baqir (عليه السلام) that says imam huseyn (عليه السلام) was willing to pledge to yazid? Apparently hidden in " the spirit of Islam" by Justice Ameer Ali as well and many other shia books

What you will also find in the history is that Yazid (L) never wanted to kill Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

المشهور : أن يزيد بن معاوية لم يأمر بقتل الحسين رضي الله عنه ، ولا رضي به ، وقد سب ابن زياد على قتله ، وأكرم أهل الحسين الذين كانوا معه في مسيره هذا ، وسيرهم إلى المدينة ، ولم يحبسهم عنده

"That Yazid bin Muawiyah did not order the killing of al-Husayn, may God be pleased with him, nor was he satisfied with him, and he insulted Ibn Ziyad for killing him, and he honored al-Husayn's family who were with him on this journey, and drove them to Medina, and did not lock them with him."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/ar/answers/241102

Should we accept this? while Tabari also reported this:

22 hours ago, Cool said:

لعبت هاشم بالملك فلا ***** خبر جاء ولا وحى نزل

 

On 9/10/2021 at 9:36 AM, zahralzu said:

Did abdullah bin Jafar divorce sayda zainab (عليه السلام) (not that I don’t already vilanise ibn Jafar for not going to karbala) And why did sayda zainab (عليه السلام) continue to live in sham after karbala? 

Even if he divorced her, what do you think did the divorce reduces the status of Syeda Zaynab s.a? Who could be considered a looser in such a scenario? Syeda Zaynab (عليه السلام) or Abdullah bin Ja'far? 

And by the way, there is no "authentic" report which mentions that Abdullah bin Ja'far divorced Syeda Zaynab s.a

On 9/10/2021 at 9:36 AM, zahralzu said:

Please refute the annoying claim that imams Hassan (عليه السلام) and huseyn (عليه السلام) had different mindsets, and that imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was “pro peace” while imam huseyn was “pro warl, and that imam Hassan (عليه السلام) criticised imam Ali (عليه السلام) for waging siffin, while imam huseyn (عليه السلام) criticised imam Hassan for making peace with muwayah 

These sort of analysis are the work of fallible minds. Is it even considerable that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) would criticize his father? And on nothing else but for Siffin where a rebellious group of this ummah exposed, calling people to hellfire according to Sunni hadith books. 

The mindset of Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) remain same, they are with truth & truth is with them whether they do peace treaties or whether they fight. 

On 9/10/2021 at 9:36 AM, zahralzu said:

How was imam al sajad as spared given the barbarianism of ibn saads army? 

He never fought against them because of his illness. Who can harm the one whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) intended to save? 

On 9/10/2021 at 9:36 AM, zahralzu said:

1) Was Muslim bin aqeel (عليه السلام) really hesitant in going to kufa?

2) And why was he appointed anyway to inspect the situation when imam (عليه السلام) has ilm al ghayb? 

1) If he was hesitant in going to Karbala, we would also see him hesitant in calling people to Hussain (عليه السلام) and also see him hesitant in fighting before being captured & killed by the cursed ones. 

2. You are joining two issues here. With this question, one can say that since Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) had ilm ulbghayb therefore he knew where Muslim would be killed so he sent him there. 

Why Imam (عليه السلام) sent Muslim (عليه السلام) to Kufa is well documented in the history books. And he is not the only messenger of Imam (عليه السلام). 

For ilm ul ghayb of Imam, we can discuss it on a different thread if you are willing to discuss it.

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On 9/11/2021 at 12:55 AM, zahralzu said:

Thank you very much for this! 
im just hoping you also have examples of tabari’s nasabism? Because due to his accepting “shia” narratives and narrations like karbala, and due to including blasphemous narrations like satanic verses, Sunnis have formulated a rediculous conspiracy that he’s “secretly shia destroying Islam from within”, and if they don’t go to this extent then they’ll at least reject what tabari has to say about karbala because it’s “too shia”…

Salaam,

Please read the original post in this thread to see Tabari's bias for Yazid:
 

 

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