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In the Name of God بسم الله

The sons of Imam Sajjad against the Twelver narrative: No designation!


Zaidism

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These are two Hadiths which I will share where three of the sons of 'Ali b. Hussein عليهما السلام testify that their father never designated anyone. 

  • 'Umar b. 'Ali, and Al-Hussein b. Ali

I asked U’mar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad and Hussein b.‘ Ali al-Sajjad the uncles of Ja’far Al-Sadiq:

Is there a member of the Ahl al-Bayt among you whose obedience is obligatory, he who knows him, knows him and you know him, and he who doesn’t know him dies the death of ignorance? 

They said: No, this is not true and whoever says this about us (The Ahl al-Bayt) is a liar. 

I said to ‘Umar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad:

May Allāh have mercy on you, do you claim that this status (Imāmah) is a status you claim belonged to ‘Ali - as the Prophet willed it to him - after that it was to Hassan, after ‘Ali willed it to him. After that it was to Hussein, al-Hassan willed it to him. After that it belonged to ‘Ali b. Al-Hussein, after Al-Hussein willed it to him and after that it was to Muhammad b. ‘Ali, after ‘Ali b. Hussein willed it to him.

‘Umar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad said:

I swear by Allah my father had died and he did not designate anyone, may Allah curse them! They are only using our names [to push their lies].

Fudayl said: This is the product of Khunays

‘Umar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad said: Who is Khunays?

Fudayl said: Al-Mu’allā b. Khunays

‘Umar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad said: Yes, Al-Mu’allā. By Allāh, I reflect for a lengthy period amazed by such people! Allāh took away their minds when Al-Mu’allā b. Khunays misguided them.

Source: Al-Tabaqātal-Kubrā, v. 5, pg. 325

  • Imam Zayd b. 'Ali

Zayd b. Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام sent for me while he was in hiding so I went to see him. He [Zayd] said to me: O Aba Ja`far [al-Ahwal] what will you say if a knocker from among us [the family of the prophet] knocks on your door [asking for your support to fight the unjust ruler] – would you come out in revolt with him? I said to him: if it is your father [al-Sajjad] or your brother [al-Baqir] I would set out with him. He [Zayd] said to me: Verily I wish to rise up and fight these people so set out with me, I said: No, I will not do so may I be made your ransom, he said to me: do you prefer your life over mine? I said: it is only one soul [that I have] – if Allah does indeed have a Hujja [proof] on the earth [whose existence you deny] then the one who stays back from joining you is saved and the one who joins you is destroyed [for revolting without the permission of the Hujja], but if Allah does not have a Hujja [proof] on the earth [as you claim] then the one who stays back and the one who joins you are both the same. He said to me: O Aba Ja`far I used to sit with my father to share a plate with him so he would feed me the choicest piece of meat and cool for me a hot morsel fearing for my health but he did not fear for me enough to save me from the hell-fire! How could it be that he informed you the truth about the religion [the presence of the Hujja] and did not inform me about it! I said to him: may I be made your ransom – it is only because of his fear of hell-fire for you you that he did not inform you! he feared for you that you would reject it and enter the fire, but he informed me [not caring either way] so if I accept I am saved and he was not bothered that I enter the fire [if I reject]. Then I said to him: may I be made your ransom are you better or the prophets? He said: the prophets, I said: Ya`qub said to Yusuf: “O my son – do not relate your dream to your brothers for they will devise a plot against you” (12:5) why not inform them and expect them not to devise a plot against him but rather he was to keep it a secret from them [so as not to tempt them]? the same way your father kept it a secret from you because he feared for you. He said: by Allah! now that you mention that – your man [the Imam] narrated to me in Madina that I am to be killed and crucified in Kinasa and that he has a book which tells of my killing and crucifixion in it. Later I [al-Ahwal] made the pilgrimage and relayed to Aba Abdillah عليه السلام my conversation with Zayd, so he said to me: you took him from in front and from behind, from the right and from the left, from above his head and from below his legs and did not leave him any room to wiggle out [the argument you made was water tight].

Grading: 

Shaykh Asif al-Mohseni: معتبر - Muʿjam al-Aḥādīth al-Muʿtabara

Source

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You are displaying nothing but contradictions. The نص for the Imamate of Imam Ali bin Hussain (عليه السلام) can be found in your own books:

يظهر من كلام الهادي إلى الحق يحيى بن الحسين (المتوفّى 298) أنه يلتزم بإمامة السجاد (عليه السلام)بالنصّ على الوصية إليه حيث ذكره باسمه الصريح، فقد قال: إن الله عزوجل أوصى بخلقه على لسان النبي الى عليّ بن أبي طالب، والحسن، والحسين، وإلى الأخيار من ذريّة الحسن والحسين، أولهم علي بن الحسين، وآخرهم المهدي، ثم الأئمة في ما بينهما

This statement clearly indicates that the bequest was to Imam al-Sajjad (peace be upon him) as it was for his father, uncle and grandfather, by appointment from God Almighty, so he (peace be upon him) is one of the guardians whom God chose for leadership and was established for them by divine choice.

One statement has made your argument naught. 

Whatever you bring is of no use while your own books contains this evidence for twelve imams:

في ( التحف شرح الزلف) قال : ( واعلم أن الله عز وجل جعل خلف النبوة من أبناء نبيه في اثنى عشر سبطا ، قال الامام الرضا (ع) : أن الله عز وجل أخرج من بني إسرائيل يعقوب بن اسحاق بن ابراهيم اثنى عشر سبطا ، ثم عد الاثنى عشر من ولد إسرائيل ، وكذلك أخرج من ولد الحسن والحسين اثنى عشر سبطا ... لا ينقطع عقبهم إلى انقطاع التكليف ، وهم بمنزلة أسباط بني إسرائيل حجة الله على خلقه وأمان أهل الأرض من استيصال عذابه ) انتهى 

Reflect on his saying: God’s proof over His creation and the safety of the people of the earth. 

Wassalam!!

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It is saying after the designated Imams imamate is in the general group of the sons of Imam Hassan and Hussein starting off with 'Ali b. Hussein and his sons

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:) Why not it is reached to Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام)? Why according to you, he is not your Imam? 

Here is a definition given by your scholar:

السيّد بدرالدين الحوثي عن القاسم (عليه السلام) ما نصّه:

وجرى الأمر في ولد النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) الصفوة بعد الصفوة، لا يكون إلاّ في خير أهل زمانه وأكثرهم اجتهاداً وأكثرهم تعبّداً وأطوعهم لله وأعرفهم بحلال الله وحرامه وأقومهم بحقّ الله وأزهدهم في الدنيا وأرغبهم في الآخرة وأشوقهم للقاء الله، فهذه صفة الإمام، فمن استبان منه هذه الخصال فقد وجبت طاعته على الخلائق، فتفهّموا وانظروا:

And the matter took place in the son of the Prophet (may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family) the elite after the elite, it is only in the best of the people of his time, the most diligent, the most devotional, the most obedient to God, the most knowledgeable of God’s lawful and forbidden, the most upright in the right of God, the most ascetic in the world, the desire for the hereafter, and the most eager to meet God.  Whoever discovers these qualities from him, then it is obligatory to obey him on the creation, so understand and see

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

:) Why not it is reached to Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام)? Why according to you, he is not your Imam? 

Here is a definition given by your scholar:

السيّد بدرالدين الحوثي عن القاسم (عليه السلام) ما نصّه:

وجرى الأمر في ولد النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) الصفوة بعد الصفوة، لا يكون إلاّ في خير أهل زمانه وأكثرهم اجتهاداً وأكثرهم تعبّداً وأطوعهم لله وأعرفهم بحلال الله وحرامه وأقومهم بحقّ الله وأزهدهم في الدنيا وأرغبهم في الآخرة وأشوقهم للقاء الله، فهذه صفة الإمام، فمن استبان منه هذه الخصال فقد وجبت طاعته على الخلائق، فتفهّموا وانظروا:

And the matter took place in the son of the Prophet (may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family) the elite after the elite, it is only in the best of the people of his time, the most diligent, the most devotional, the most obedient to God, the most knowledgeable of God’s lawful and forbidden, the most upright in the right of God, the most ascetic in the world, the desire for the hereafter, and the most eager to meet God.  Whoever discovers these qualities from him, then it is obligatory to obey him on the creation, so understand and see

He doesn't mention Imam Sajjad?

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20 minutes ago, Cool said:

في ( التحف شرح الزلف) قال : ( واعلم أن الله عز وجل جعل خلف النبوة من أبناء نبيه في اثنى عشر سبطا ، قال الامام الرضا (ع) : أن الله عز وجل أخرج من بني إسرائيل يعقوب بن اسحاق بن ابراهيم اثنى عشر سبطا ، ثم عد الاثنى عشر من ولد إسرائيل ، وكذلك أخرج من ولد الحسن والحسين اثنى عشر سبطا ... لا ينقطع عقبهم إلى انقطاع التكليف ، وهم بمنزلة أسباط بني إسرائيل حجة الله على خلقه وأمان أهل الأرض من استيصال عذابه ) انتهى 

 

روي الشّيخ الصّدوق بإسنادِه ، حَدّثنا عُبيدالله بن عَبد الله بن الحسَن بن جَعفر بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي قال : سَألت عَلي بن مُوسى بن جَعفر عليهم السلام عمّا يُقَال في بني الأفطَس؟!. فَقال : ((إنّ الله عَزّ وَجلّ أخرَج مِن بَني إسرَائيل وَهُو يَعقُوب بن إسحَاق بن إبراهيم عليه السلام اثني عشَر سِبطاً وَجعلَ فِيهِم النبوّة والكِتاب [أي قبيلَةً يَنتسبون إلى اثنَي عَشر رجلاً من أبناء يعقوب] ، وَنشرَ مِنَ الحسَن والحسين ابنَي أمير المُؤمنين عليهم السلام مِن فاطمة بِنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله اثني عشَر سِبطاً ، ثمّ عَد الاثني عشَر مِن وَلد إسرائيل فقال : رُوبيل بن يعقوب ، وشَمعون بن يعقوب ، ويهودا ابن يعقوب ، ويَشاجر بن يعقوب ، وزيلون بن يعقوب ، ويُوسف بن يعقوب ، وبنيامين بن يعقوب ، ونفتالى بن يَعقوب ، ودَان بن يعقوب ، وسقط عن أبي الحسن النّسابة ثلاثة مِنهم ، ثمّ عَدّ الاثني عَشر مِن ولد الحسن والحسين عليهما السلام فقال : أما الحسَن فَانتشر مِن ستّة أبطُن وَهُم بَنو الحسن بن زَيد بن الحسَن بن عَلي ، وبَنو عبد الله بن الحسن بن الحسن بن عَلي ، وبَنو إبراهيم بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي ، وبنو الحسن بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي ، وبَنو داود بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي ، وبنو جعفر بن الحسن بن الحسن علي ، فَعقب الحسن بن علي مِن هَذه السّتة الأبطُن ، ثمّ عَد بَني الحسين عليه السلام فقال : بَنو محمّد بن عَلي الباقر بن علي بن الحسين عليهم السلام بَطن ، وبَنو عبد الله ابن الباهر بن علي ، وبَنو زيد بن علي بن الحسين ، وبَنو الحسين بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، وبَنو عمر بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، وبنو علي بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، فهؤلاء الستّة الأبطن نَشر الله عَزّ وجلّ مِن الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام)) [الخصال:466] ، وهُنا تأمّل قولَ الإمَام علي بن موسَى الرّضا (ع) : ((إنّ الله عَزّ وَجلّ أخرَج مِن بَني إسرَائيل وَهُو يَعقُوب بن إسحَاق بن إبراهيم عليه السلام اثني عشَر سِبطاً وَجعلَ فِيهِم النبوّة والكِتاب))

Sheikh Al-Saduq narrated with his chain of narrators, that Obaidullah bin Abdullah bin Al-Hassan bin Jafar bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Hassan bin Ali said: I asked Ali bin Musa bin Jafar, peace be upon them, about what is said about Banu Al-Aftas?

He said: “God, the Mighty and the Majestic, brought out from the Children of Israel, which is Ya`qub bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim, peace be upon him, twelve tribes, and made in them the prophethood and the book [i.e. a tribe that belong to the two men], and he spread the two men of the sons of Ya`qub among them from among the ten believers. Fatimah, the daughter of the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, and the family of twelve tribes. 

Then he counted the twelve sons of Israel and said: Rubel ibn Ya’qub, Simeon ibn Ya’qub, Yehuda ibn Ya’qub, Shajar ibn Ya’qub, Zilun ibn Yaqoub, Yusuf ibn Ya‘qub, Benjamin ibn Ya‘qub, and Naftali. Ibn Yaqub, Dan Ibn Yaqub, and three of them fell from the lineage of Abu al-Hasan. 

Then he counted the twelve sons of al-Hasan and al-Husayn, peace be upon them, and said: As for al-Hasan, it spread from six descendants, and they are the sons of al-Hasan ibn Zaid ibn al-Hasan ibn Ali, and the sons of al-Hasan ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan. The sons of Ali, the sons of Ibrahim Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Dawood Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Jaafar Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali.

Al-Hussein, peace be upon him He said: The children of Muhammad bin Ali Al-Baqir bin Ali bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, peace be upon them, are a line, the children of Abdullah bin Al-Bahir bin Ali, the children of Zaid bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, the children of Al-Hussain bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, the children of Omar bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, and the children of Ali. Bin Ali Bin Al-Hussein Bin Ali,

so these are the six innermost ones that God, the Mighty and Sublime, has spread from Al-Hussain Bin Ali, peace be upon them.” [Al-Khisal: 466]

You will find that leadership and guidance is in the (collective) offspring of the group, as displayed by the Quran with the 12 Naqibs mentioned, and as explained by our dear Imam Al-Ridha. 

And We verily sent Noah and Abraham and placed the prophethood and the scripture among their seed, and among them there is he who goeth right, but many of them are evil-livers. {Al-Hadeed: 26}

And so, We have bestowed this divine writ as a heritage unto such of Our servants as We chose: and among them are some who sin against themselves; and some who keep half-way [between right and wrong]; and some who, by God’s leave, are foremost in deeds of goodness: [and] this, indeed, is a merit most high {Faatir: 32}

21 minutes ago, Cool said:

Reflect on his saying: God’s proof over His creation and the safety of the people of the earth. 

 

Yes, I agree.

The Ahl al-Bayt are lanterns of light, and guidance. If you haven't already check out their works:

https://alkazemalzaidy2013.wordpress.com/دليل-الباحث-إلى-علوم-أهل-البيت-ومذهبهم/

https://alkazemalzaidy2013.wordpress.com/2020/01/26/كتب-وأبحاث-الأستاذ-الكاظم-الزيدي/

https://ziydia.com/Book/169

https://ziydia.com/Book/256

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Well he doesn't mentioned any of the Imam. He just mentioned the traits/qualities and by this statement, Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) automatically become your Imam whose obedience was obligatory.

Well, no. He has the pre-requisites, what is left is to call for himself like Imam Zayd, or Imam Ridha.

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5 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

ثمّ عَد بَني الحسين عليه السلام فقال : بَنو محمّد بن عَلي الباقر بن علي بن الحسين عليهم السلام بَطن ، وبَنو عبد الله ابن الباهر بن علي ، وبَنو زيد بن علي بن الحسين ، وبَنو الحسين بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، وبَنو عمر بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، وبنو علي بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، فهؤلاء الستّة الأبطن نَشر الله عَزّ وجلّ مِن الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام

So who is denying this fact that the progeny of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) "spread" from these sons? 

We are discussing Imams whose obedience is made obligatory on us by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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4 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

what is left is to call for himself like Imam Zayd, or Imam Ridha.

This clause itself is the bid'a invented by the Zaidiyyah. Otherwise please provide the نص for this clause from Quran or from the hadith of Aimma e Tahireen (عليه السلام)

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29 minutes ago, Cool said:

This clause itself is the bid'a invented by the Zaidiyyah. Otherwise please provide the نص for this clause from Quran or from the hadith of Aimma e Tahireen (عليه السلام)

Sure,

Hadith 1:

Ibn Qawlawiyah, with his chain, narrated from Abi Dharr Al-Ghafari said: 
I saw the messenger of Allah - صلى الله عليه واله وسلم - embracing Al-Hassan, and Al-Hussein - عليهما السلام - while he says: He who loves Al-Hussein, Al-Hussein, and their progenies sincerely; the fire will not touch their faces even if his sins are as much as the grains of sand, unless his sin was a sin that removes him from faith. 

Source: Kāmil al-zīyārāt, 49

Grading: Saheeh

Hadith 2:

Sheikh Al-Tūsī narrates, with his chain, from Abī Baseer, narrated from Abī ‘Abdullah Ja’far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام, from his forefathers, from ‘Ali عليه السلام, he said:
The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him and his progeny) said: O’ ‘Ali when I was taken to the heavens the angels came to me from every heaven with glad tidings… He looked at the third and chose Fatema over the women of the worlds, he then looked at the fourth and chose Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein, and the Imams from their sons over the men of the worlds.

Source: Āmālī Al-Tūsi, 642

Grading: Saheeh

Hadith 3:

Al-Hakim Al-Hiskani narrates with his chain from Abī Hāmza Al-Thumālī, from ‘Ali b. Al-Hussein, he said: 
I was sitting alongside him (‘Ali b. Al-Hussein) and two men from Al-‘Iraq came to him saying: O’ son of the Messenger of Allāh we have came to you so that you could inform us of some verses in the Holy Quran. He said: And what are they? They said: The saying of Allāh - Exalted is He - {And we have caused to inherit the book those whom we have favoured from our servants}… He said [Al-Sajjad]: Who unsheathes his sword and calls to the way of his Lord. 

Source: Shawāhid Al-Tanzīl [2/157]

Note: Unsheathing the sword means to make your call to Imāmate known, as for the interpretation of the verse in question it is 35:32. What Imam Sajjad عليه السلام is doing, is that he’s interpreting the third stage of the three mentioned in 35:32, the third being the foremost in deeds and that is the one who is deserving of Imāmate from the Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام

Hadith 4: 

Sheikh Al-Saduq narrates with his chain from Abī Hāmza Al-Thumālī, he said: We were sitting in Masjid Al-Haram with Abī Ja'far (عليه السلام) when two men from Al-Basrah came to him, the said: O' son of the Messenger of Allah we would like to inquire over a matter, he said to them: Ask of that which you came seeking: Inform us of the saying of Allah: {And so, We have bestowed this divine writ as a heritage unto such of Our servants as We chose: and among them are some who sin against themselves; and some who keep half-way [between right and wrong]; and some who, by God’s leave, are foremost in deeds of goodness: [and] this, indeed, is a merit most high} [35:32] 

He said: It has been revealed regarding us the Ahl al-Bayt, Abī Hāmza said: May my father and mother be ransomed for you, who are those who keep the half-way? He said: He who worships Allah until certainty reaches him, I said: Who is the foremost in deeds of goodness? He said: He who calls to the way of his Lord, enjoins good and forbids evil; and does not become to the deviators a supporter, and not for the traitors an aid, and does not accept the rulership of the open sinning rulers unless he fears for himself, his religion, and does not find any supporters.

Source: Ma'ani Al-Akhbar

يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين .

قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]

Grading: Saheeh

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Which of the above hadith contains the نص which I have requested?

On 9/10/2021 at 2:36 AM, Zaidism said:

He said [Al-Sajjad]: Who unsheathes his sword and calls to the way of his Lord. 

Source: Shawāhid Al-Tanzīl [2/157]

 

On 9/10/2021 at 2:18 AM, Zaidism said:

what is left is to call for himself like Imam Zayd, or Imam Ridha

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

He doesn't mention Imam Sajjad?

 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Here is a definition given by your scholar:

السيّد بدرالدين الحوثي عن القاسم (عليه السلام) ما نصّه:

وجرى الأمر في ولد النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) الصفوة بعد الصفوة، لا يكون إلاّ في خير أهل زمانه وأكثرهم اجتهاداً وأكثرهم تعبّداً وأطوعهم لله وأعرفهم بحلال الله وحرامه وأقومهم بحقّ الله وأزهدهم في الدنيا وأرغبهم في الآخرة وأشوقهم للقاء الله، فهذه صفة الإمام، فمن استبان منه هذه الخصال فقد وجبت طاعته على الخلائق، فتفهّموا وانظروا:

And the matter took place in the son of the Prophet (may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family) the elite after the elite, it is only in the best of the people of his time, the most diligent, the most devotional, the most obedient to God, the most knowledgeable of God’s lawful and forbidden, the most upright in the right of God, the most ascetic in the world, the desire for the hereafter, and the most eager to meet God.  Whoever discovers these qualities from him, then it is obligatory to obey him on the creation, so understand and see

The statement actually never ended here, it continues as follows:

هل بيننا وبينكم اختلاف في علي بن أبي طالب ثم بعده الحسن بن علي ؟

أو هل اختلفنا من بعده في الحسين بن علي ؟

أو هل اختلفنا في علي بن الحسين ؟

أو هل اختلفنا في محمد بن علي ؟

أو هل ظهر منهم رغبة في الدنيا ؟! او طلب اموال الناس ؟

إلى قوله : فلو أردنا أن نجحد الحقّ لجحدناهم من بعد الحسين بن علي، وصيّرناه في أهل بيت النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) عامّةً

Ref:

الزيدية في اليمن (ص 17 ـ 18) عن كتاب (الردّ على الروافض من الغلاة ـ المخطوط ـ ص 264 ـ 265).

Is there a difference between us and you regarding Ali bin Abi Talib, then after him, Al-Hassan bin Ali?

 Or did we differ after him about Hussein bin Ali?

 Or did we disagree about Ali bin Al-Hussein?

 Or did we disagree with Muhammad ibn Ali ?

 Or did they show a desire for the world?!  Or ask for people's money?

To his saying: If we wanted to deny the truth, we would have denied them after al-Husayn ibn Ali, and made it general among the people of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him and his family).

Now since you are bringing Al-Hakim, I am quoting from him and from others:

روى الحافظ ابن عساكر، بسنده، عن سفيان بن عُيَيْنَة، عن أبي الزبير قال: كنّا عند جابر، فدخل عليه علي بن الحسين، فقال له جابر: كنت عند رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، فدخل الحسين، فضمّه اليه وقبّله وأقعده إلى جنبه، ثم قال: يولد لابني هذا ابن يقال له « علي بن الحسين »  إذا كان يوم القيامة نادى مناد من بُطنان العرش: « ليقم سيّد العابدين » فيقوم هو 

تاريخ دمشق ص 26 الحديث 34 

وروى ابن المديني عن جابر أنه قال للامام الباقر محمد بن علي، وهو صغير: « رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) يسلّم عليك » فقيل له: وكيف ذاك ؟

قال: كنت جالساً عنده، والحسين في حجره وهو يداعبه، فقال: يا جابر، يولد له مولود اسمه عليّ، إذا كان يوم القيامة نادى مناد: « ليقم سيّد العابدين » فيقوم ولده، ثم يولد له ولدُ اسمه محمد، فإنْ أدركْتَه ـ يا جابر ـ فأقرئه منّي السلام

منظور (17: 234).

Now from your own books:

روى السيد الموفق بالله قال: أخبرنا أبوالحسن علي بن أحمد: أخبرنا أبوأحمد الحسن بن عبدالله: أخبرنا الحسن بن علي بن زكريا: حدثّنا العباس بن بكّار: حدثّنا أبوبكر الهذلي، عن أبي الزبير، عن جابر قال: سمعت رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)يقول: يُولَد  للحسين ابنٌ يُقال له علي، إذا كان يوم القيامة نادى مناد: ليقم سيّد العابدين

كتاب الاعتبار وسلوة العارفين (ص 185)

ورواه الشهيد المحلّي أنـّه (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: إذا كان يوم القيامة نادى مناد: « ليقم سيّد العابدين » فيقوم عليّ بن الحسين

الحدائق الوردية (ص 137).

Are these sufficient?

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He’s saying we haven’t differed in taking knowledge from these great personalities, as for the Hadiths you mentioned Imam Sajjad isn’t any ordinary personality. However, there isn’t anything you shared which remotely mention him عليه السلام being a designated Imam. 

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What lies being spewed. May Allah sincerely guide you. Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) was clearly appointed as the Imam after his father Al-Hussain (عليه السلام) as indicated by many narrations. What the other sons of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) say isn't necessarily considered a proof (if we assume what they say is true).

 

Quote

Abu Bakr Hazrami has narrated from Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).), “When Husayn Ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).) was going to travel to Iraq, he gave a book and a will to Umm Salamah. When Ali Ibn Husayn ((عليه السلام).) returned from Karbala to Medina, Umm Salamah gave the trusts to him.

Fuzayl Ibn Yasar has narrated from Imam Muhammad Baqir ((عليه السلام).), “When Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام).) was going to Iraq, he gave a book, his will, and some other things to Umm Salamah, Prophet Muhammad (S)’s wife, and said, ‘When my eldest son comes to you, give these to him.’ After Imam Husayn’s ((عليه السلام).) martyrdom, his son Ali went to Umm Salamah and took the trusts.

‘Ithbatul Hudat, Vol 5, p. 212.

 

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fyi, here is my layman confirmation of the Divine Appointment. 

Reflect on the Day / and the atrocities - of Ashura, Captivity  From Karbala to Kufa, from Kufa to Dmascus( Syria) . 

Quote

He then ordered for the womenfolk of al-Husayn and his children, so they got ready. Shackles were put on the neck of ‘Ali bin al-Husayn (عليه السلام) on his order. Then he sent [the caravan] under the command of Muhaffaz bin Tha’labah al-‘A’idhi [al-Qarashi]3 and Shamir bin Dhi al-Jaushan. So they set out with them [towards Sham] and entered upon Yazid.4

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf/household-al-husayn-sham-syria

Now go read 

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin

The Divine Representative(s) say Tawheed. That is our layman way of recognizing the Divine Appointment. 

You, learned folks  can argue over things, and will never ever reach a conclusion just look at past 1400 years. Arguments/counter arguments based on Science(acquired data)  is futile. Why,  because you miss the underlying realities and real intentions of people involved. Iblis had data/info it led him to be accursed. So, info like science can be used for good or for harm. 

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What lies are YOU spewing?

Sirat al-Najat 2/452:

يقول الخوئي: الروايات المتواترة الواصلة إلينا من طريق العامة والخاصة قد حددت الأئمة عليهم السلام باثني عشر من ناحية العدد ولم تحددهم بأسمائهم عليهم السلام واحداً بعد واحد، حتى لا يمكن فرض الشك في الإمام اللاحق بعد رحلة الإمام السابق، بل قد تقتضي المصلحة في ذلك الزمان اختفاءه والتستر عليه لدى الناس؛ بل لدى أصحابهم عليهم السلام إلا أصحاب السر لهم، وقد اتفقت هذه القضية في غير هذا المورد والله العالم

453  كتاب صراط النجاة ج2 ص

Al Khoei says : The authentic mutawatir narrations that reached us through the public (’Ammah - Mainstream Muslims) and private (Khassah – Twelver Shia) paths have defined the imams, peace be upon them, to twelve in terms of number and did not specify them by their names, peace be upon them one by one, so that suspicion cannot be imposed on the later Imam after the previous Imam's journey, but it may require interest at that time that he hid and concealed it among the people. But among their companions, peace be upon them, except those who have the secret for them and this issue has been agreed upon in other than this resource. Sirat al-Najat 2, p. 452-3

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It’s also important to note @Cool that we’re not discussing whether he called to his Imamate or not, rather the point is he never claimed to be designated, nor did he designate. The designated Imams by the Prophet are only three, afterwards it is in the sons of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein. Not ending at a twelfth imam where the entire Shari’ah of Allah is halted for thousands of years.

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

I think we have no difference in "taking knowledge" from even a kafir, as hikmah is considered as the lost treasure of momin. 

You take Hadith from a Kafir for your jurisprudence? 

On 9/10/2021 at 4:38 AM, Cool said:

الزيدية في اليمن (ص 17 ـ 18) عن كتاب (الردّ على الروافض من الغلاة ـ المخطوط ـ ص 264 ـ 265).

 

You are quoting Imam Qasim who explicitly states In his book تثبيت الامامة found in volume 2, pages 191-192 of his مجموع that the designated Imams are 3. Therefore, what he means by هل بيننا وبينكم اختلاف is in terms of taking our Hadith from them saying that if they did indeed say this of themselves or believe this in themselves, we wouldn't have taken knowledge from them. Moreover, when he says:  فلو أردنا أن نجحد الحقّ لجحدناهم من بعد الحسين بن علي، وصيّرناه في أهل بيت النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) عامّةً

Meaning that if your claim that they're designated is true we wouldn't have followed them as Imams of 'ilm and ijtihad.

What he meant by: وصيّرناه في أهل بيت النبي, is explained by him ((عليه السلام))

قالَ الإمَام نجم آل الرّسول القَاسم بن إبراهيم بن إسماعيل بن إبراهيم بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي بن أبي طالب عليهم السلام ، (169-246هـ) : ((ويُقَال للرّوافض : أخبرُونَا عَن أهل بَيت رَسُول الله صلّى الله عليه وعليهم مُشركُون أو كفّار أو مُسلِمُون ؟!. فَإن زَعمتم أنّهم مُسلمُون. يُقَال: فقد أجمَع أهلُ بَيت رَسول الله صلى الله عَليه وعَليهم وسلّم وعُلماؤهُم بأنّكم عَلى غَير طَريقَة الإسلام [أي النّهج الإسلاميّ الصّحيح] . فَإن زَعمُوا بأنّهم قَد يَعلمُونَ الحقّ، ويجحدُون حَسَداً مِنهًم . يُقَال لَهم : فَنحنُ نَرى مِنهُم أنّهم إذا استبان لَهم مِن أحَدٍ مِنهُم الفَضل والزّهد والعِلم انقَادُوا لَه، وأقرّوا بفضلِه، ونَزلُوا عِند حُكمِه، فَكيفَ حَسَدوا صَاحِبَكم، ولَم يَحسدُوا ذَاك ؟! فَلو كانَ الأمر على مَا وَصفتُم أنّه لا يَمنَعهم مِن الإقرَار إلاّ الحسَد لكَانوا لا يُقرّون لأحَد! وكلّ وَاحِد مِنهم يجرّ إلى نفسِه، ولا يُقرّ بفَضل صَاحبِه. ولكن كَذبتُم عَليهِم، لأنّا قَد رَأينا قَولَهم يُصدِّقه كِتاب الله، وقولُكم يُكذِّبه كِتاب الله، وهُم أولَى بالصِّدق منكُم، ونحن نَرى مِنهُم مِنَ الزّهد مَالا نَرى مِن غَيرهِم، فَهُم أعَرف بأهلِ بِيتهِم مِنكُم، وهُم أعرفُ بعضِهم لبَعض مِنكَ يَا مُدّعِي مَا ادعيتَ بالبَاطِل، وتُريدُ أن نَقبلَ بَاطِلَك بِغير بَيان ولا بُرهَان، ونُكذِّب أهل بَيت النّبي صلّى الله عليه وآله!)

He is saying if we accept the beliefs you're sharing, then you are claiming all of the Ahl al-Bayt are disbelievers, because during his time (169-246) the entirety of the Ahl al-Bayt and the scholars of the 'itrah reached a consensus that those who were purporting beliefs of designation have deviated from the path of the Prophet and his pure progeny.

That is why he is saying: فلو أردنا أن نجحد الحقّ لجحدناهم من بعد الحسين بن علي، وصيّرناه في أهل بيت النبي, meaning that if we wanted to conspire against them then we simply would have disregarded the Imams you claim after Imam Hussein and we wouldn't take Hadith from them, we wouldn't consider them to have any weight in our creed, etc.

However, he says:  فقد أجمَع أهلُ بَيت رَسول الله صلى الله عَليه وعَليهم وسلّم وعُلماؤهُم بأنّكم عَلى غَير طَريقَة الإسلام [أي النّهج الإسلاميّ الصّحيح] but in reality it is you who is going against the entirety of the Ahl al-Bayt, including the Imams that you claim to be designated.

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Secondly, it is our belief that Earth cannot remain without the Hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), this belief is authenticated by several sahih ahadith available with us. And Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) was the only son of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), therefore he is the Imam & the Hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on Earth after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)

Your understanding is self-contradicting and self-deluding, for two reasons (1) we do not deny that there are members from the pure progeny who guide in every era with their writings, words, and leadership (2) what is the point of having a Hujjah of Allah on earth that fundamentally does nothing to help the Shi'ah?

الكافي - الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٧٨ 

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

This narrative was pushed for the first 11 Imams, but it now has to be redefined because the 12th Imam will never reprimand anyone, nor well he fulfil anything for anyone during his time of occultation; the understanding you give of a Hujjah under scrutiny is nothing but mere sophistry.

8 hours ago, Cool said:

روى ابن شهر آشوب في المناقب ان الامام زيد (عليه السلام) اشار إلى الإمام الباقر بأبيات وقال:

 An Imammi narrating poetry from Imam Zayd 300 years after him?

How about we go to the مجموع of Imam Zayd:

وقال يرثي أخاه أبو جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر - عليهما السلام:

يا موت أنت سلبتني آلفا      قدمته وتركتني خلفا

وا حزننا لا نلتقي أبدًا        حتى نقوم لربنا صفا 

Found on page 400 of his مجموع

Moreover, even if we say that the poetry you shared - Narrated by a twelver scholar centuries later - was actually said by Imam Zayd, it again proves nothing because Imam Baqir was indeed a great Imam of 'ilm, but to argue that this proves his Imamate is dubious. You have (twelver) scholars to this day discussing whether Imam Zayd called to his imamate or the imamate of Ja'far Al-Sadiq. The Hadith I mentioned in this thread suffices to mention his ignorance over any such designation:

On 9/9/2021 at 8:13 PM, Zaidism said:

O Aba Ja`far I used to sit with my father to share a plate with him so he would feed me the choicest piece of meat and cool for me a hot morsel fearing for my health but he did not fear for me enough to save me from the hell-fire! How could it be that he informed you the truth about the religion [the presence of the Hujja] and did not inform me about it!

 

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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

You take Hadith from a Kafir for your jurisprudence? 

Let me remind you that you said "knowledge". Now you are making it specific to hadith & jurisprudence. 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Therefore, what he means by هل بيننا وبينكم اختلاف is in terms of taking our Hadith from them

No, it is absurd to say. Why? Because we have indeed اختلاف on this very assertion that the designated Imams are 3. How can he even say that in that sense while there are many ahadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioning Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) in both Sunni & Shi'i books?

Who introduced Mehdi (عليه السلام) as Imam well before his birth? Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

So how can the designated Imams were 3? 

Now Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) introduced Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as Imams along with their father Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Do we have two Imams at the same time after Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Or do we have 3 Imams of time after the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) nominated Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) nominated Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) as his successor, Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) nominated Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as his successor and Imam Hussain nominated Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) as his successor..... And the chain goes on to Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام).

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

because during his time (169-246) the entirety of the Ahl al-Bayt and the scholars of the 'itrah reached a consensus that those who were purporting beliefs of designation have deviated from the path of the Prophet and his pure progeny.

Perhaps you are excluding Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام), Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) from "the entirety of Ahl ul Bayt (عليه السلام)" 

We can say the same for you because zaidiyyah were failed to recognize Imam of time after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)  whose obedience is made obligatory to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

من مات ولم يعرف إمام زمانه مات ميتة جاهلية

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Your understanding is self-contradicting and self-deluding, for two reasons (1) we do not deny that there are members from the pure progeny who guide in every era with their writings, words, and leadership (2) what is the point of having a Hujjah of Allah on earth that fundamentally does nothing to help the Shi'ah?

1. Yes you do deny. Your books contain this contradiction. A confession is present right there that you don't have an Imam whose obedience is obligatory after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). 

2. What is the point of having Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) when He fundamentally does nothing to help Muslimeen? This sort of argument would bury the whole emaan, so beware my brother. 

As I have pointed out earlier, we believe in tashri'i & takwini guidance. Imam,.according to us, is the bearer of wilayat al-takwiniyah. You seems to totally reject the concept of takwini guidance with your this argument and hence putting a question mark on Allah's system of guidance. 

Infact, Imam of our time is fulfilling his duties according to the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Even if apparently, the door of tashri'i guidance is closed for a time being, the door of takwini guidance is still open. 

مَا أَصَابَ مِن مُّصِيبَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَمَن يُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ يَهْدِ قَلْبَهُ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

64:11 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

 

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

This hadith is mentioning the tashri'i role of Imam. The takwini role is mentioned here:

عن أبي حمزة قال: "قلت لأبي عبد الله عليه السلام: أتبقى الأرض بغير إمام؟ قال عليه السلام: لو بقيت الأرض بغير إمام لساخت" (الكافي ج1 ص179).

 روى الحمويني بسنده: "عن سليمان الأعمش بن مهران عن جعفر الصادق عن أبيه عن جده علي بن الحسين رضي الله عنهم قال: نحن أئمة المسلمين وحجج الله على العالمين وسادات المؤمنين، وقادة الغر المحجلين، وموالي المسلمين ونحن أمان لأهل الأرض كما أن النجوم أمان لأهل السماء وبنا يمسك السماء أن تقع على الأرض إلا بإذنه، وبنا ينزل الغيث وتنشر الرحمة وتخرج بركات الأرض، ولولا ما على الأرض منا لساخت بأهلها ثم قال: ولم تخل منذ خلق الله آدم (عليه السلام) من حجة الله فيها أما ظاهر مشهور، أو غائب مستور، ولا تخلو الأرض إلى أن تقوم الساعة من حجة، ولولا ذلك لم يعبد الله.

قال سليمان: فقلت لجعفر الصادق رضي الله عنه: كيف ينتفع الناس بالحجة الغائب المستور؟ قال: كما ينتفعون بالشمس إذا سترها السحاب" (فرائد السمطين للحمويني ج1 ص45 وينابيع المودة للقندوزي الحنفي ج3 ص361).

Wassalam

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On 9/9/2021 at 8:13 PM, Zaidism said:

I said to ‘Umar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad:

May Allāh have mercy on you, do you claim that this status (Imāmah) is a status you claim belonged to ‘Ali - as the Prophet willed it to him - after that it was to Hassan, after ‘Ali willed it to him. After that it was to Hussein, al-Hassan willed it to him. After that it belonged to ‘Ali b. Al-Hussein, after Al-Hussein willed it to him and after that it was to Muhammad b. ‘Ali, after ‘Ali b. Hussein willed it to him.

‘Umar b. ‘Ali al-Sajjad said:

I swear by Allah my father had died and he did not designate anyone, may Allah curse them! They are only using our names [to push their lies].

Hmmm, I thought Imam Ali bin Hussain (عليه السلام) was not an Imam (عليه السلام) for Zaydis.

In order for Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) to designate anyone, he would have to be an Imam, no?

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