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In the Name of God بسم الله

Thinking of leaving Shiism

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  • Veteran Member
5 hours ago, Baseer said:

This video is just the tip of some points that make me consider leaving. I have lots of issues with both Sunni and Shia beliefs but overall I may be leaning towards the sunnis. here's some of my issues with Shiism:

  • I can't find any authentic proofs of conterversial subjects such as the attack on fatima's house by Umar. It seems made up unless someone can prove it.

Does it matter? Fact remains that Fatima (عليه السلام) died angry with Abu Bakr and Umar which is an unforgivable sin for them.

5 hours ago, Baseer said:

 

  • I have seen "Ayatullahs" like Syed Shirazi (Not makarem) being accused of collecting funds from the UK and US to corrupt Shias and Islam. I would usually treat this like nothing and stop following such people but some of the top Ayatollahs and Scholars have regularly visited Shirazi and his family such as the Qazwini family who are very popular and known world-wide.

This is why you would leave shiism? What is show you a couple of corrupting sunni mullahs? Mullah Baghdadi? Mullah Omar?

5 hours ago, Baseer said:

Taqiyya and hiding beliefs from Sunnis makes no sense Islamically to me.

This more than anything proves you are a #FakeShia because taqiyah is only used if one's life is in danger and what you've stated is a common nasibi tactic to spread misinformation.

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13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

If I were to ask 99.9% of members on Shiachat (including you), why they are Shia?  Obviously by birth and not using God-given Aql. Same would go me and majority of Sunnis of every shade and colour obviously by birth.

Salam It's a totally  wrong assumption  which has been came from wahabi/salafi propaganda  against  Shias as portraying  Shias as stupid & mindless  people by wahabists  /Salafists which you point to someone  with one finger to a group then rest of your three fingers are pointing  to you because  one of matter pride of Sunnis ie wahabists /Salafits is their large population  in comparison  with shia population  which majority of Sunnis are sunnis by birth wich majority of them are following  traditions of their forefathers  & their community while majority of them don't  know basics of their inherited  religion which majority  of atheists & ex muslims have sunni background because  they see their religion as just outdated  traditons & rituals of their forefathers  which it has no response & value  in front  of westerner  values .

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

But regrettably, around 4 centuries ago great noble of people of Iran were not given any choice.  Safavids steamrolled 12er Shiaism into Azerbaijan and Iran with sword.  And Safavids reformed the 12er Shia faith to what it is practiced today.

This is another great lie & popular peropaganda of wahabists /Salafits against  shias especially shias of Iran which Azerbaijan has been formed by seperating it from Iran by Tzarian russia by wars during Qajar era as a shia land from Iran which later all shia religious  activities  have been suppressed  by soviet union which residents  of Azerbaijan  were practicing  shia rituals in hiding which after fall of soviet union it has revived publicly ,so consequently , your accusation  about Azerbaijan  is just a wahabists /Salafits propaganda  , by the same token, your propaganda  about spreading  shia Islam by Safavid  with sword which spreading Islam by brute force & sword is just favorite  procedure  of wahabists /Salafits for following  procedure  of cursed Ummayids then Abbasids  & martyrying  Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) symbols of of Aql & divinity by sword or poison  especially Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam  Hasan(عليه السلام) & Imam  Hussain  (عليه السلام) .

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

According to Daniel W. Brown, Isma'il was "the most successful and intolerant [Shiite] ruler since the fall of the Fatimids".

It's just delusional idea of a so called reformist  which wants to reform Islam based on westerner values by altering reality & history of Islam because Ismaili 's until start of 19th century have been most aggresive sect between  Islamic sects which during Fatimid era , Ismail groups specially in Iran by support of Fatimids have been responsible  for majority of terrors for weakening  Abbasids which their castels & hideouts likewise  Alamut as main base for their fight against  Abbasids is still available  in Iran which still Alamut is a sacred place for Ismaili's & his accusation  about treatment  with Sufis is a joke because Safavids had sufi backgrounds  which after taking power rest of Sufis have became  their enemies  likewise of Ismailis during Abbasid era , so therefore Safavids has wiped out them for having no rivals which have been supporting  by Ottomans as their so called sunni rival which it has no relation  to forcing them to convert to shias .

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

That is one of the reasons I admire and respect people who fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth likes of respected Sisters Hameedeh, Notme, brother Abu Hadi and few others I can’t recall the names off hand (my apologies to them) using their God-Gifted Aql opted for 12er Shiaism and found peace.

This is another  sign of contradition  in your wahabi /Salafi propaganda  because all of three of of them are converts/reverts from another religions even Sunnism to Shia Islam in contradiction  with your first paragraph  which you have stated 99.9 percent of shia users in shiachat are stupid people  without Aql .

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Zaidism and there are other few who thought otherwise.

In my opinion he is spreading salafism/wahabism in name of Zaidi religion  . Therefore you are supporting him.

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

referably, I would love if you can comment unbiasedly on the above.
I can already see dear brother Ashvazdanghe cringing and reacting negatively to this

because  there is clear line between reality  & truth and your wahabi/Salafi propaganda  & falshood .:einstein::book:(shia Islam) vs :dwarf::blabla:(wahabistm/Salafism)

 

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12 hours ago, Baseer said:

I'm just having a ton of doubts. I have problems with some sunni beliefs as well don't get me wrong.

Do you have any doubt on the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and sons from his progeny? 

Do you have any doubt on the concept of their wilayah? 

I have just centralized the nature of your doubts to core shi'i belief. 

 

Edited by Cool
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17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Obviously, he is Shia being born in Shia family.

Salam brother!!

If he was a shia by birth he should have to be tough enough to cater these 10 points mentioned in video. Shia by birth means receiving the love of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in genes and in the breast milk. Then there is a whole school of azadari in place which makes familiar our kids with the Quran and Islamic history as well as the fada'il & masa'ib of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

So my question to him was a rhetoric and right after that I have given him the advise for not following anything blindly.

17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I admire and respect people who fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth

Well we all need to know one thing i.e., truth is that which is from Truth Almighty. We only need to search for it and by God, the truth will unveils itself to the sincere seeker. That is what I have witnessed. Once reach to the truth we all need to:

1. Do not contaminate the truth by mixing it to falsehood or to anything like that.

2. Do seek for the certified truthful ones for which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded us  كونو مع الصادقين (be with the truthful ones)

Now whether Shi'i , Zaidi, Sunni whatsoever the belief system one keeps it doesn't matter as long as we have two weighty things with us. We just need to cling to these two as commanded by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and which are the means of our nijaat.

17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Preferably, I would love if you can comment unbiasedly on the above.

I would have submitted my response to those ridiculous 10 points if they had any weight in them. We don't need to respond to every cry and false allegations. Maybe I will add something if @Baseer would specify me his doubts. 

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11 hours ago, Baseer said:

I can't find any authentic proofs of conterversial subjects such as the attack on fatima's house by Umar. It seems made up unless someone can prove it.

This is a historical event and it has nothing to do with becoming a shia.

11 hours ago, Baseer said:

have seen "Ayatullahs" like Syed Shirazi (Not makarem) being accused of collecting funds from the UK and US to corrupt Shias and Islam. I would usually treat this like nothing and stop following such people but some of the top Ayatollahs and Scholars have regularly visited Shirazi and his family such as the Qazwini family who are very popular and known world-wide.

Again, this has nothing to do with becoming a shia.

11 hours ago, Baseer said:

Taqiyya and hiding beliefs from Sunnis makes no sense Islamically to me.

Again :hahaha:, I am wondering do you even know what is meant by shia? Or do you even know what shi'ism actually is?

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Let's follow the example of our Aimmah((عليه السلام)) who were polite even to enemies giving them every chance to still find the way.

Someone who is Shia and having doubts, well here we should be even more careful of our duty, what the other person does is still their doing but let's stick to the points made and bring forth evidences and example that can help.

What is important to say is this, emotions can be deadly and Shaytaan and Qabil are very early examples of how emotions can take us away, just keep to facts and try to keep the Aql as the general within your being and you'll find the way.

Baseer, if you want to chat privately if that will help, I was Sunni and came to Shia Islam many years ago, happy to chat if you wish.

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1. A Focus on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

The person claimed that "the focus of Shias in not on the Creator but on the creation" and as a proof for his claim, he just asked people to visit any hussainiyah or mosque to find out the fact. lol 

Isn't it ridiculous?? I am coming from a mosque after offering the Zohrain prayers. I was in the Hussainiyyah in morning and have attended a majlis, in fact these were a series of majalis held everyday to observe the martyrdom of Imam Zain-ul-Abideen (عليه السلام).

Why I have offered the zohrain prayers? 
To obey the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His messenger:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ
2:277

Why I have attended the majlis?

Again to obey the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His messenger:

قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى
42:23

I can launch a counter offensive after that but just avoiding it.

So what is meant by focus on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? As a Muslim and specifically as a Mo"min, one is needed to have a clear understanding of Haqq & Batil. Otherwise one would not obey the following command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنْتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ {42}

[Shakir 2:42] And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

How can a Muslim act upon this divine command if he is unaware of what the haqq is and what is the batil? So if Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) say as mentioned in the books of Ahlul Sunnah:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبَّادٍ الْمَكِّيُّ ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سَعِيدٍ ، عَنْ صَدَقَةِ بْنِ الرَّبِيعِ ، عَنْ عُمَارَةَ بْنِ غَزِيَّةَ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ، قَالَ : كُنَّا عِنْدَ بَيْتِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي نَفَرٍ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ ، وَالأَنْصَارِ ، فَخَرَجَ عَلَيْنَا ، فَقَالَ : أَلا أُخْبِرُكُمْ بِخِيَارِكُمْ ؟ قَالُوا : بَلَى ، قَالَ : خِيَارُكُمُ الْمُوفُونَ الْمُطَيَّبُونَ ، إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْخَفِيَّ التَّقِيَّ ، قَالَ : وَمَرَّ عَلَيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ، فَقَالَ : الْحَقُّ مَعَ ذَا ، الْحَقُّ مَعَ ذَا

مسند أبي يعلي، ج2، ص318، ح1052.

The Abu Ya'la was died in 307 A.H. The other famous ahadith are here:

قال سعد فإني سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول لعلي أنت مع الحق و الحق معك حيث ما دار.

ابن عساكر المتوفی 571 هـ 

The same Ibn Asakir has also collected this hadith from another chain:

ابن عساكر المتوفی 571 هـ ینقل عن ام سلمة انها سمعت رسول الله (ص) یقول:

«عَلِيٌّ مَعَ الْحَقِّ وَالْحَقُّ مَعَ عَلِيٍّ وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَيَّ الْحَوْضَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ»

Then Al Hakim Al-Nishapuri recorded this in Al-Mustadrak:

الحاكم النيسابورى ینقل عن الإمام علي (ع) انه:

قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ: رَحِمَ اللَّهُ عَلِيًّا اَللَّهُمَّ أَدِرِ الْحَقَّ مَعَهُ حَيْثُ دَارَ .

ثم یقول فی تصحيح الحديث هکذا:

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحٌ عَلَى شَرْطِ مُسْلِمٍ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ

المستدرك ج3، ص134

Then Tabarani recorded this:

الطبراني ینقل بسنده عن ام سلمة زوجة النبی الاكرم (ص) انه(ص) قال:

كان عَلِيٌّ على الْحَقِّ مَنِ اتَّبَعَهُ اتَّبَعَ الْحَقَّ وَمَنْ تَرَكَهُ تَرَكَ الْحَقَّ عَهْدًا مَعْهُودًا قبل يَوْمِهِ هذا.

المعجم الكبير ، ج 23 ص 330 ح 758  نشر: مكتبة الزهراء – الموصل.

Now you will find in Sunni school of though that they are mixing the haqq & batil. Just look at the status with them of those who fought wars with Imam Ali (عليه السلام). What worse one will find is that they revere Muawiyah which according to hadith, proved rebel and the one who call people to the fire: 
 

حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ مُوسَى، أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، أَنَّ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ لَهُ وَلِعَلِيِّ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ائْتِيَا أَبَا سَعِيدٍ فَاسْمَعَا مِنْ حَدِيثِهِ‏.‏ فَأَتَيْنَاهُ وَهُوَ وَأَخُوهُ فِي حَائِطٍ لَهُمَا يَسْقِيَانِهِ، فَلَمَّا رَآنَا جَاءَ فَاحْتَبَى وَجَلَسَ فَقَالَ كُنَّا نَنْقُلُ لَبِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ لَبِنَةً لَبِنَةً، وَكَانَ عَمَّارٌ يَنْقُلُ لَبِنَتَيْنِ لَبِنَتَيْنِ، فَمَرَّ بِهِ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَمَسَحَ عَنْ رَأْسِهِ الْغُبَارَ وَقَالَ ‏ "‏ وَيْحَ عَمَّارٍ، تَقْتُلُهُ الْفِئَةُ الْبَاغِيَةُ، عَمَّارٌ يَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَيَدْعُونَهُ إِلَى النَّارِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Narrated `Ikrima:

that Ibn `Abbas told him and `Ali bin `Abdullah to go to Abu Sa`id and listen to some of his narrations; So they both went (and saw) Abu Sa`id and his brother irrigating a garden belonging to them. When he saw them, he came up to them and sat down with his legs drawn up and wrapped in his garment and said, "(During the construction of the mosque of the Prophet) we carried the adobe of the mosque, one brick at a time while `Ammar used to carry two at a time. The Prophet (ﷺ) passed by `Ammar and removed the dust off his head and said, "May Allah be merciful to `Ammar. He will be killed by a rebellious aggressive group. `Ammar will invite them to (obey) Allah and they will invite him to the (Hell) fire."

 Sahih al-Bukhari 2812,  Book 56, Hadith 28

Now you will find the Sunni's covering up the crime of Muawiyyah, giving him one goodness for his ijtihadi mistake, lol. Thousands got killed in the battle of Siffin for this ijtihadi mistake including Ammar bin Yasir (رضي الله عنه). So if they hide this crime of Muawiyyah by saying it ijtihadi mistake, how would they hide the practice of cursing Imam Ali (عليه السلام) started by Muawiyyah? How many goodness would they grant him for originating such practices? 

Let me further quote the words of most beloved scholar of Sunni Defense i.e., Ibn Taimiyyah. Here is what he said about the hadith Ali (عليه السلام) is with Haqq:

ابن تيمية فی كتاب منهاج السنة یقول: 

على مع الحق والحق معه يدور حيث دار ولن يفترقا حتى يردا على الحوض من أعظم الكلام كذبا وجهلا؛ فإن هذا الحديث لم يروه أحد عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم لا بإسناد صحيح و لا ضعيف فكيف يقال إنهم جميعا رووا هذا الحديث و هل يكون أكذب ممن يروى عن الصحابة و العلماء أنهم رووا حديثا و الحديث لا يعرف عن واحد منهم أصلا بل هذا من أظهر الكذب و لو قيل رواه بعضهم و كان يمكن صحته لكان ممكنا فكيف و هو كذب قطعا على النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم

منهاج السنة ج4، ص238

I will stay on this point for a while. 
 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Cool said:

will stay on this point for a while. 
 

One reason for staying on this point is that it also involves the ahadith and the Islamic history. 

So lets move ahead for exploring further what is meant by focusing on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said this in Quran:

مَنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ ۖ وَمَنْ تَوَلَّىٰ فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا {80}

[Shakir 4:80] Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed this divine command through the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  so now we have to focus on Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) too for obeying and focusing on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

And when the same Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) commands us:

  من كنت مولا فهذا علي مولا

What should we do? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said this too in Quran:

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

59:7) and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back,

Should we start twisting words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or should we accept them as they are? 

If the sole purpose of obeying the commands of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle is related to the نجاة why not should we accept the command of Ghadir and accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as our mowla in the same sense the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our mowla? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has send the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to guide the humanity and to make sure their نجاة. Similarly,.Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) identified Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) as the ark of Noah:

روي عن النبيّ (صلّى الله عليه وآله) أنه قال : « إنّما مثلي ومثل أهل بيتي فيكم كسفينة نوح ، مَن ركبها نجى ، ومَن تخلّف عنها غرق ».
رواه الخطيب البغدادي في تاريخ بغداد : ج  ۱۲ ص ۹۱ ، رقم الحديث ٦٥۰۷ ، و رواه الحاكم في مستدرك الصحيحين : ج۱۳ ص ۱٥۱ ، وحكم بصحته .
و روي عنه أيضاً أنّه قال : « إنّما مثل أهل بيتي فيكم كسيفنة نوح ، مَن ركبها نجا ، ومَن تخلّف عنها هلك ».  
رواه أكثر من مائة عالم من علماء السنة ، منهم : مسلم بن الحجّاج في صحيحه  ، وأحمد بن حنبل في مسنده ، والحافظ أبو نعيم الأصبهاني في حلية الأولياء ، وابن عبد البرّ في الإستيعاب ، ومحمّد بن طلحة الشافعي في مطالب السوؤل ، وابن الأثير في النهاية ، وسبط ابن الجوزي في التذكرة ، وابن الصباغ المالكي في الفصول المهّمة ، والعلاّمة السمهودي في تاريخ المدينة ، والشلبنجي في نور الأبصار ، والفخر الرازي في تفسيره الكبير (مفاتيح الغيب) ، والسيوطي في الدر المنثور ، والثعلبي في تفسيره ، والطبراني في الأوسط ، والحاكم النيسابوري في المستدرك ، والبلخي الحنفي في ينابيع الموّدة ، والمير السيّد عليّ الهمداني في موّدة القربى (الموّدة الثانية ) ، وابن حجر المكي في الصواعق ، والطبري في تفسيره وتاريخه ، والكنجي في كفاية الطالب ، وغيرهم.

And why not should we accept these ahadith while the Quran testify them as sahih? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced the truthful ones and certified their truthfulness in Quran as:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

This is the historical event of Mubahila, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) introduced and certified the truthful ones here and the commanded us:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ اتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَكُونُواْ مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

9:119

Now just look at how Sunni's deal with these sort of commands. You will find more evidences for mixing the truth & falsehood.

وَقُلِ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ ۖ فَمَنْ شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِنْ وَمَنْ شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ ۚ إِنَّا أَعْتَدْنَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ نَارًا أَحَاطَ بِهِمْ سُرَادِقُهَا ۚ وَإِنْ يَسْتَغِيثُوا يُغَاثُوا بِمَاءٍ كَالْمُهْلِ يَشْوِي الْوُجُوهَ ۚ بِئْسَ الشَّرَابُ وَسَاءَتْ مُرْتَفَقًا {29}

[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink and ill the resting-place.

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15 hours ago, Baseer said:

This video is just the tip of some points that make me consider leaving. 

The points have been answered beautifully by @Guest Based (and other users too!).

15 hours ago, Baseer said:

I can't find any authentic proofs of conterversial subjects such as the attack on fatima's house by Umar. It seems made up unless someone can prove it.

Watch this entire playlist in YouTube and see if it's "authentic" enough: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8IhTxV0G4rgSCyhql0R6BiRShcytuJeY 

And I really mean it when I say that you should watch ALL the videos carefully (specially the last one, where he even responds to the channel you've posted) and then form your own conclusions.

15 hours ago, Baseer said:

I have seen "Ayatullahs" like Syed Shirazi (Not makarem) being accused of collecting funds from the UK and US to corrupt Shias and Islam. I would usually treat this like nothing and stop following such people but some of the top Ayatollahs and Scholars have regularly visited Shirazi and his family such as the Qazwini family who are very popular and known world-wide.

Has Sistani visited him ? Has Khamenei visited him ? Have the other thousands of real top scholars visited him ? You should have treated it like nothing. I can literally say the same thing about the Saudi royals and how they're corrupting Islam, but for every Sunni "scholar" that supports them, there are hundreds that don't.

15 hours ago, Baseer said:

Taqiyya and hiding beliefs from Sunnis makes no sense Islamically to me.

We're suposed to use Taqiyya when we have to protect our lives, our honor or property.

If you have a problem with the concept of Taqiyya itself, then know that it has been allowed in the Qur'an with many verses, including: "He who disbelieves in Allah after his belief in Him (is the liar) except he who is compelled while his heart remains steadfast with the faith (has nothing to worry). But he who opens his breast for infidelity, on these is the wrath of Allah, and for them is a great torment." (16:106) 

If you have a problem with Shi'as hiding their beliefs from Sunnis, this comes sadly from centuries of Shi'as living under oppressive regimes, resulting in them in using Taqiyya, otherwise they would have faced severe consequences. It's more than obvious if X dominates and opresses Y for such a long time, Y will obviously hide their beliefs from X, this has happened many times in history for any religion.

Of course, today it's not as severe as before, so our beliefs are more open. However, I still find it funny that there's either 2 ways people view Shias: either he's lying/using Taqiyya, either he reveals his true beliefs that are viewed as "offensive, sectarian, disrespectful". Like lol what do you expect us to say if either way people won't end up happy. But that's what happens when you're the minority.

Have I hopefully answered your issues ?

 

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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4 hours ago, Cool said:

Do you have any doubt on the Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and sons from his progeny? 

Do you have any doubt on the concept of their wilayah? 

I have just centralized the nature of your doubts to core shi'i belief. 

 

Brother please discuss the letter of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).  which he wrote to Maviya LA.. letter number 6:

"The same people have made Bayt with me who had made their bayt with Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman. So therefore there is no excuse for those present or absent to go against that Bayt. "Shura" is only for Mahajireen and Ansaar so if those people have "elected" a person unanimously among them, and declared him their "Imam" then it is enough for the agreement of Allah and the whole muslim Nation.. " 

I have tried to translate it directly from the book. The word in arabic is aslo imam, not khalifa.. 

 

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam It's a totally  wrong assumption  which has been came from wahabi/salafi propaganda  against  Shias as portraying  Shias as stupid & mindless  people by wahabists  /Salafists which you point to someone  with one finger to a group then rest of your three fingers are pointing  to you because  one of matter pride of Sunnis ie wahabists /Salafits is their large population  in comparison  with shia population  which majority of Sunnis are sunnis by birth wich majority of them are following  traditions of their forefathers  & their community while majority of them don't  know basics of their inherited  religion which majority  of atheists & ex muslims have sunni background because  they see their religion as just outdated  traditons & rituals of their forefathers  which it has no response & value  in front  of westerner  values .

Salaams brother Ashvazdanghe

Wow! What an incredible rant! You used around 140 words with one full-stop. Phew! I am still trying to decipher what you were trying to say.  Too much and jumbled up. Please have some cold Doogh with less salt, we are debating and not at war.  I too am drinking cold Aryan.

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

is just a wahabists /Salafits propaganda  , by the same token, your propaganda  about spreading  shia Islam by Safavid  with sword which spreading Islam by brute force & sword is just favorite  procedure  of wahabists /Salafits

Please read again, this time a bit slowly so that you can comprehend what is written.  Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it is ‘wahabists /Salafits’ propaganda. You just can not sweep away the facts just because they are not palatable to your ‘taste’.

Methods of converting Iran

(Shah) Ismail consolidated his rule over the country and launched a thorough and, at times, brutal campaign to convert the majority Sunni population to Twelver Shiism and thus transform the religious landscape of Iran.[21]

His methods of converting Iran included:

1) Imposing Shiism as the state and mandatory religion for the whole nation and much forcible conversion of Iranian Sufi Sunnis to Shiism. [22][23][24] *

2) He reintroduced the Sadr (Arabic, leader) – an office that was responsible for supervising religious institutions and endowments. With a view to transforming Iran into a Shiite state, the Sadr was also assigned the task of disseminating Twelver doctrine. [25] *

3) He destroyed Sunni mosques. This was even noted by Tomé Pires, the Portuguese ambassador to China who visited Iran in 1511–12, who when referring to Ismail noted: "He (i.e. Ismail) reforms our churches, destroys the houses of all Moors who follow (the Sunnah of) Muhammad…"[26] *

4) He enforced the ritual and compulsory cursing of the first three Sunni Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman) as usurpers, from all mosques, disbanded Sunni Tariqahs and seized their assets, used state patronage to develop Shia shrines, institutions and religious art and imported Shia scholars to replace Sunni scholars.[27][28][29] *

5) He killed Sunnis and destroyed and desecrated their graves and mosques. This caused the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II (who initially congratulated Ismail on his victories) to advise and ask the young monarch (in a "fatherly" manner) to stop the anti-Sunni actions. However, Ismail was strongly anti-Sunni, ignored the Sultan's warning, and continued to spread the Shia faith by the sword.[30][31] *

6) He persecuted, imprisoned, exiled, and executed stubbornly resistant Sunnis.[32][33] *

7) With the establishment of Safavid rule, there was a very raucous and colourful, almost carnival-like holiday on 26 Dhu al-Hijjah (or alternatively, 9 Rabi' al-awwal) celebrating the Eid-e-Shuja' or Celebration of assassination of Caliph Umar. The highlight of the day was making an effigy of Umar to be cursed, insulted, and finally burned.
However, as relations between Iran and Sunni countries improved, the holiday was no longer observed (at least officially).[34]*

8) In 1501, (Shah) Ismail invited all the Shia living outside Iran to come to Iran and be assured of protection from the Sunni majority.[35] *

*[22] Modern Iran: roots and results of revolution]. Nikki R Keddie, Yann Richard, pp. 13, 20
*[23] The Encyclopaedia of world history: ancient, medieval, and modern. Peter N. Stearns, William Leonard Langer, p. 360.
*[24] Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Steven R Ward, pg.43
*[25] Iran: a short history: from Islamization to the present. Monika Gronke, p. 91.
*[26] The Judeo-Persian poet ‘Emrānī and his "Book of treasure": ‘Emrānī's Ganǰ… 'Emrānī, David Yeroushalmi, p. 20.
*[27] A new introduction to Islam. Daniel W Brown, p. 191.
*[28] Encyclopaedic Historiography of the Muslim World. NK Singh, A Samiuddin, p. 90.
*[29] The Cambridge illustrated history of the Islamic world. Francis Robinson, p. 72.
*[30] Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Steven R. Ward, p. 44.
*[31] Iran and America: re-kindling a love lost]. Badi Badiozamani, pp. 174–5.
*[32] The Cambridge illustrated history of the Islamic world. Francis Robinson, p. 72.
*[33] Iraq: Old Land, New Nation in Conflict. William Spencer, p. 51.
*[34] Culture and customs of Iran. Elton L Daniel, 'Alī Akbar Mahdī, p. 185
*[35] Iraq: Old Land, New Nation in Conflict. William Spencer, p. 51.

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

 

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It's just delusional idea of a so called reformist  which wants to reform Islam based on westerner values by altering reality & history of Islam because Ismaili 's until start of 19th century have been most aggresive sect between  Islamic sects which during Fatimid era , Ismail groups specially in Iran by support of Fatimids have been responsible  for majority of terrors for weakening  Abbasids which their castels & hideouts likewise  Alamut as main base for their fight against  Abbasids is still available  in Iran which still Alamut is a sacred place for Ismaili's & his accusation  about treatment  with Sufis is a joke because Safavids had sufi backgrounds  which after taking power rest of Sufis have became  their enemies  likewise of Ismailis during Abbasid era , so therefore Safavids has wiped out them for having no rivals which have been supporting  by Ottomans as their so called sunni rival which it has no relation  to forcing them to convert to shias .

I think you are NOT reading well – Daniel W. Brown was referring to (Shah) Isma'il It’s nothing to do with Ismaili sect! Shah Ismail I was the founder of the Safavid dynasty of Iran

According to Daniel W. Brown, (Shah)* Isma'il was "the most successful and intolerant [Shiite] ruler since the fall of the Fatimids". It appears that he aimed for complete destruction of Sunni Islam, and he largely achieved that goal in the lands over which he ruled (Iran and Azerbaijan). His hatred of the Sunnis knew no bounds, and his persecution of them was ruthless. 
*  I have added (Shah) for your benefit.

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is another  sign of contradition  in your wahabi /Salafi propaganda  because all of three of of them are converts/reverts from another religions even Sunnism to Shia Islam in contradiction  with your first paragraph  which you have stated 99.9 percent of shia users in shiachat are stupid people  without Aql .

I have read their posts, so I know a bit about them. That’s why I stated the following:

Quote

That is one of the reasons I admire and respect people who fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth likes of respected Sisters Hameedeh, Notme, brother Abu Hadi and few others I can’t recall the names off hand (my apologies to them) using their God-Gifted Aql opted for 12er Shiaism and found peace.

And the same for brothers Ali Bin Hussein, Zaidism and there are other few who thought otherwise:

Quote

On the other hand, respected brothers Ali Bin Hussein, Zaidism and there are other few who thought otherwise. They too, fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth and using their God-Given Aql moved out of 12er Shiaism and found peace in Zaidiyyah Islam and others found peace in Sunni Islam.

 

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

in contradiction  with your first paragraph  which you have stated 99.9 percent of shia users in shiachat are stupid people  without Aql .

That’s what I said:

Quote

If I were to ask 99.9% of members on Shiachat (including you), why they are Shia?  Obviously by birth and not using God-given Aql. Same would go me and majority of Sunnis of every shade and colour obviously by birth.

Pray, please let me know where did I state or imply that 99.9 percent of shia users in shiachat are stupid people  without Aql .

Please have some cold doogh with less salt, and please don't twist or mis-read others words to score useless points. Reflects bad on you.

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

because  there is clear line between reality  & truth and your wahabi/Salafi propaganda  & falshood .:einstein::book:(shia Islam) vs :dwarf::blabla:(wahabistm/Salafism)

I am trying to de-cypher this! Are your trying to imply that Albert Einstein was a secret Shia and Vikings were Sunni?  :) Go ahead and press the 'Don't Agree Button again as usual - :)

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23 hours ago, Debate follower said:

That is one of the reasons I admire and respect people who fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth likes of respected Sisters Hameedeh, Notme, brother Abu Hadi and few others I can’t recall the names off hand (my apologies to them) using their God-Gifted Aql opted for 12er Shiaism and found peace.

On the other hand respected brothers Ali Bin Hussein, Zaidism and there are other few who thought otherwise. They too, fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth and using their God-Given Aql moved out of 12er Shiaism and found peace in Zaidiyyah Islam and others found peace in Sunni Islam.

[Shakir 2:257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

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5 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam brother!!

If he was a shia by birth he should have to be tough enough to cater these 10 points mentioned in video. Shia by birth means receiving the love of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in genes and in the breast milk. Then there is a whole school of azadari in place which makes familiar our kids with the Quran and Islamic history as well as the fada'il & masa'ib of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

So my question to him was a rhetoric and right after that I have given him the advise for not following anything blindly.

Wa Alaykum Salaam brother, I get your point, but we must keep in mind that everybody has not that much commitment as we think they should have.  If some Sunni converts to Shia does not mean that that person was a ‘bad’ Sunni to start with and same applies the Shia. Everyone has different aptitudes.  People feel betrayed when someone leaves their camp.  I don’t think everyone follows their faith blindly, only those who are born in and have no commitment.  It was/is your duty to give him good advice. And you did.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Well we all need to know one thing i.e., truth is that which is from Truth Almighty. We only need to search for it and by God, the truth will unveils itself to the sincere seeker. That is what I have witnessed. Once reach to the truth we all need to:

1. Do not contaminate the truth by mixing it to falsehood or to anything like that.

2. Do seek for the certified truthful ones for which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded us  كونو مع الصادقين (be with the truthful ones)

Now whether Shi'i , Zaidi, Sunni whatsoever the belief system one keeps it doesn't matter as long as we have two weighty things with us. We just need to cling to these two as commanded by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and which are the means of our nijaat.

Well said! Our aim should be always to seek Allah Almighty’s Pleasure.  In Sha Allah, even with all our differences we will succeed. In Sha Allah.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

I would have submitted my response to those ridiculous 10 points if they had any weight in them. We don't need to respond to every cry and false allegations. Maybe I will add something if @Baseer would specify me his doubts. 

When I said:

Quote

Preferably, I would love if you can comment unbiasedly on the above.

I had meant the link give below – I think you missed it because it was in smaller font.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

My following prediction came true too!

Quote

I can already see dear brother Ashvazdanghe cringing and reacting negatively to this :)

 

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

[Shakir 2:257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

Nobody is disbelieving here - only went with what is right according to their research. Every sect can apply the above to the others.

turning unto Him [alone]; and remain conscious of Him, and be constant in prayer, and be not among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him 31 Surah ar-Rum
[or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets] 32 Surah ar-Rum

Say: "O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of all that is hidden and open! it is Thou that wilt judge between Thy Servants in those matters about which they have differed." 46 az-Zumar

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28 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

turning unto Him [alone]; and remain conscious of Him, and be constant in prayer, and be not among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him 31 Surah ar-Rum
[or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets] 32 Surah ar-Rum

Say: "O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of all that is hidden and open! it is Thou that wilt judge between Thy Servants in those matters about which they have differed." 46 az-Zumar

وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَهُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَٰكِن يُدْخِلُ مَن يَشَاءُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ ۚ وَالظَّالِمُونَ مَا لَهُم مِّن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ

And if Allah had pleased He would surely have made them a single community, but He makes whom He pleases enter into His mercy, and the unjust it is that shall have no guardian or helper. (42:8)

أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۖ فَاللَّهُ هُوَ الْوَلِيُّ وَهُوَ يُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

Or have they taken guardians besides Him? But Allah is the Guardian, and He gives life to the dead, and He has power over all things. (42:9)

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

And whoever takes Allah and His messenger and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant. (5:56)

وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِن شَيْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبِّي عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ أُنِيبُ

And in whatever thing you disagree, the judgment thereof is (in) Allah's (hand); that is Allah, my Lord, on Him do I rely and to Him do I turn time after time. (42:10)

wasalam

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Nobody is disbelieving here - only went with what is right according to their research. Every sect can apply the above to the others.

turning unto Him [alone]; and remain conscious of Him, and be constant in prayer, and be not among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him 31 Surah ar-Rum
[or] among those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects, each group delighting in but what they themselves hold [by way of tenets] 32 Surah ar-Rum

Say: "O Allah! Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of all that is hidden and open! it is Thou that wilt judge between Thy Servants in those matters about which they have differed." 46 az-Zumar

I was referring to "bringing out of darkness into light".

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On 8/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, Debate follower said:

That is one of the reasons I admire and respect people who fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth likes of respected Sisters Hameedeh, Notme, brother Abu Hadi and few others I can’t recall the names off hand (my apologies to them) using their God-Gifted Aql opted for 12er Shiaism and found peace.

On the other hand respected brothers Ali Bin Hussein, Zaidism and there are other few who thought otherwise. They too, fought and struggled tormenting their delicate souls in search of Truth and using their God-Given Aql moved out of 12er Shiaism and found peace in Zaidiyyah Islam and others found peace in Sunni Islam.

 

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

[Shakir 2:257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

Brother, you did not highlight anything.  To anybody who reads will jump to conclusions that: respected Sisters Hameedeh, Notme, brother Abu Hadi moved from darkness into light

And the others moved from out of light into darkness. 

May be you did not mean it. But that's what it comes out as: Coming into 12er Shiaism is like coming from darkness into light; Leaving 12er Shiaism is like moving from light into darkness!

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2 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

 

Brother, you did not highlight anything.  To anybody who reads will jump to conclusions that: respected Sisters Hameedeh, Notme, brother Abu Hadi moved from darkness into light

And the others moved from out of light into darkness. 

May be you did not mean it. But that's what it comes out as: Coming into 12er Shiaism is like coming from darkness into light; Leaving 12er Shiaism is like moving from light into darkness!

well I dont know about going from 12er to Zaydism but I do see moving to Sunnism as moving towards darkness. I don't understand how anybody would or could but that is obviously my own mind-constraint.

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14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

His methods of converting Iran included:

1) Imposing Shiism as the state and mandatory religion for the whole nation and much forcible conversion of Iranian Sufi Sunnis to Shiism. [22][23][24] *

2) He reintroduced the Sadr (Arabic, leader) – an office that was responsible for supervising religious institutions and endowments. With a view to transforming Iran into a Shiite state, the Sadr was also assigned the task of disseminating Twelver doctrine. [25] *

3) He destroyed Sunni mosques. This was even noted by Tomé Pires, the Portuguese ambassador to China who visited Iran in 1511–12, who when referring to Ismail noted: "He (i.e. Ismail) reforms our churches, destroys the houses of all Moors who follow (the Sunnah of) Muhammad…"[26] *

4) He enforced the ritual and compulsory cursing of the first three Sunni Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman) as usurpers, from all mosques, disbanded Sunni Tariqahs and seized their assets, used state patronage to develop Shia shrines, institutions and religious art and imported Shia scholars to replace Sunni scholars.[27][28][29] *

5) He killed Sunnis and destroyed and desecrated their graves and mosques. This caused the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II (who initially congratulated Ismail on his victories) to advise and ask the young monarch (in a "fatherly" manner) to stop the anti-Sunni actions. However, Ismail was strongly anti-Sunni, ignored the Sultan's warning, and continued to spread the Shia faith by the sword.[30][31] *

6) He persecuted, imprisoned, exiled, and executed stubbornly resistant Sunnis.[32][33] *

7) With the establishment of Safavid rule, there was a very raucous and colourful, almost carnival-like holiday on 26 Dhu al-Hijjah (or alternatively, 9 Rabi' al-awwal) celebrating the Eid-e-Shuja' or Celebration of assassination of Caliph Umar. The highlight of the day was making an effigy of Umar to be cursed, insulted, and finally burned.
However, as relations between Iran and Sunni countries improved, the holiday was no longer observed (at least officially).[34]*

8) In 1501, (Shah) Ismail invited all the Shia living outside Iran to come to Iran and be assured of protection from the Sunni majority.[35] *

Salalm all of it is just a bunch of nonsense  words because if Safavids have folloed such doctrine , there would be zero sunni muslim & Sunni mosque in Iran but in contrast Sunnis were always a part of Iran community  & at all borders of Iran they always have resisted against invasion  of sunni countries against Iran likewise of their standing against  Ottomans in Safavid era which you & your colleagues from westerners  & wahabists  are introducing  it as anti Sunni dynasty which support of Sunni & their collobration & coexistence  have continued  until no in war against  cursed Saddam & ISIS/Daesh shoulder to shoulder with their Shia brothers alhough  of efforts of wahabists & Salafists for causing enmity between  them with such nonsense  rhetorics.

  1.  It has refuted in my previous  post.
  2. This is a batalant  lie about forming an imaganiry office.
  3. He only destroyed some missionary  churches which is now are forbidden  in sunni world too .
  4. Another batalant lie however there were some extremists  which have done it but it has not been procedure of any Safavid king.
  5. It was reverse  which Ottoman kings have destroyed Shia mosque & graves & martyred  too many Shias in their invasions to Iran in contrast with procedure of Safavid king which they even preserved sunni sacred sites likewise tomb of Abu Hanifa from destruction when Baghdad has been conqured by Safavids.
  6. another batalant  lie based on wrong information  however it's rational to punish traitors & fifth column  of Ottomans .

More Doogh for you.

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14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I think you are NOT reading well – Daniel W. Brown was referring to (Shah) Isma'il It’s nothing to do with Ismaili sect! Shah Ismail I was the founder of the Safavid dynasty of Iran

According to Daniel W. Brown, (Shah)* Isma'il was "the most successful and intolerant [Shiite] ruler since the fall of the Fatimids". It appears that he aimed for complete destruction of Sunni Islam, and he largely achieved that goal in the lands over which he ruled (Iran and Azerbaijan). His hatred of the Sunnis knew no bounds, and his persecution of them was ruthless. 
*  I have added (Shah) for your benefit.

you have no clue of real history of Ismaili sect & history of Iran which as an Iranian I'm totaly aware of this history however Shah Ismail & rest of Safavid kings hatred has been toward Ottomans not Sunnis which a great part of Safavid army have been consisted from Sunnis of Iran which Daniel W. Brown is just a big fat liar.

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Pray, please let me know where did I state or imply that 99.9 percent of shia users in shiachat are stupid people  without Aql .

Please have some cold doogh with less salt, and please don't twist or mis-read others words to score useless points. Reflects bad on you.

this is crystaly clear you statement which you can't  deny it.

Quote

f I were to ask 99.9% of members on Shiachat (including you), why they are Shia?  Obviously by birth and not using God-given Aql. Same would go me and majority of Sunnis of every shade and colour obviously by birth.

 

14 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am trying to de-cypher this! Are your trying to imply that Albert Einstein was a secret Shia and Vikings were Sunni?  :) Go ahead and press the 'Don't Agree Button again as usual - :)

It's clear that Shias are people  of reasoning &intellect :einstein:& knowledge  :book:versus Wahabist as headchoppers:dwarf: & big fat liars :blabla::liar:

drink more Doogh :hahaha:

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Sunnis in Iran (How Sunni Muslims live in a Shiite country?)

How Sunni Muslims live in a Shiite country

Sunnis in Iran (How Sunni Muslims live in a Shiite country?)

https://www.aparat.com/v/fYjBO/

@Debate follower drink more Doogh with Popcorn & watch documentary :grin:

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15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

*  I have added (Shah) for your benefit.

Quote

As the first step, the Sufis of Ardebil could seize the disintegrated local government of Tabriz under the leadership of Esmail. This city had been ruled by Ozun Hasan, who was a Turcoman from Aq-Qoyunlu tribe. Esmail became the High Sufi, absolute master, Sheikh (elder) and sultan at the age of 6.

After a few years, he went to Shirvan with lots of other Sufis to take the vengeance of his father. Later he got back triumphantly to Tabriz to officially announce his founding a new dynasty. He was still very young, probably 13. In spite of the fact that the majority of people in Tabriz were Sunnis, he declares Shiite Islam as the state religion.

This is how the history of Safavids started by Esmail, later known as Shah Esmail I.

 

 

Quote

Sheikh Safi-ed-Din was a Sufi who had lived 300 years before the collapse of Timurids in Ardebil, North West of Iran. Although it is not known if Sheikh Safi-ed-Din was a Sunni or Shiite, some of his followers united and organized Shiites three centuries later to set out for a powerful movement. The result was readiness for an extremely brutal and unforgiving armed movement.

The Khaneqah of this Sufi’s followers had turned into a holy place in which there was always a High Sufi leading his followers. After the Sufi’s death, according to some agreed tradition or his will, his son succeeded him. Gradually anti-Sunni sentiments grew larger and larger there.

On the other hand, the Sufi’s genealogy went back to the first Imam of Shiites. So, they could conclude when the household of Ali was killed by brutal Sunni rulers in power, Shiites should rise to take revenge. They aimed at founding a Shiites monarchy and declare the “true religion”.

Therefore, the followers of the Sufi, who were ready to fight, were attracted to Georgia. They considered their Sufi a manifestation of divinity and symbol of Velayat. So, this could justify their religious obligation toward action, legitimize martyrdom in jihad against infidels and bring them prosperity.

 

 

Quote

According to Esmail’s order, the name of the Shiites’ first Imam, Ali, was added to the prayer calls. Also, the names of Sunnis’ first three caliphs were cursed by the rulers. This raised a lot of objections. Sufis carrying axes in the streets hit anyone opposing this order. The High Sufi had allowed them to kill all if necessary.

Therefore, this order was obeyed in the realm of the young king’s sovereignty. Shah Esmail’s offensive followers were everywhere to take care of the situations. As they wore red hats, they were called “Qezel Bash” (red-hatted people).

 

 

Quote

Administrators and militants constituted the governing class. The top commanders of the Safavid army were first Turks or Turkmen. Later, Georgians and Armenians took over. Persian speaking Tajiks were also working as administrators. All these people were trusted by Shah and most probably by top clergymen.

Merchants, craftsmen, etc were the middle class people who were often Tajiks. In fact, they were the people who had guarded and preserved Iranian traditions, because the language of the court was Turkish.

Although top clergymen were entitled the right to constant and unlimited supervision on religious issues, whenever an authoritative king was ruling, his determination was above all. The history of Safavids witnessed such comprehensive authority and dominance over religious and political aspects of the country.

 

15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

6) He persecuted, imprisoned, exiled, and executed stubbornly resistant Sunnis.[32][33] *

 

Quote

Throughout the history of Safavids, Iran tolerated other religions. Of course, this did not include the Sunni faction of Islam. In some cases, he did not consider it right to observe the policy of tolerance because of security concerns.

Shah Soleyman, who ruled for 29 years ,He was a brutal king and spent most of his time greedily in drinking and sensuality. He had no tolerance toward Christians and Jews. Actually, under the influence of some religious authorities, he persecuted them too.

Quote

Safavids’ Big Mistakes

Under the rule of Shah Soleyman, who ruled for 29 years, Iran experienced peace and stability. It was not due to his efficiency. In fact, Uzbeks and Ottomans were busy with their own domestic Affairs. Shah Soleyman was too lucky as the history of Safavids indicates that Uzbeks and Ottomans had vicious plans for Iran.

He was a brutal king and spent most of his time greedily in drinking and sensuality. He had no tolerance toward Christians and Jews. Actually, under the influence of some religious authorities, he persecuted them too.

 

Quote

During the time of Sultan Hossein, as a result of the government’s persecuting Sunnis, there were uprisings by Sunni Muslims in Kurdistan and Khorasan. The religious government of the founder of Safavid dynasty was changed into the governance of religious authorities. The absolute power of such officials had paved the way for corruption and oppression. Judiciary system was very corrupt. Paying bribes was the only common way to get things done there. It had been accepted by the parties, both payer and the receiver. Outside the capital, corruption was even worse.

 

As the religious authorities had emphasized on too much elaboration and lamentation for what had happened to the Shiite Imams, people were accustomed to the shamefulness of all sorts of tormentors’ vicious actions. For, they pretended that Shiite Imams had tolerated such hardship and it was their lifestyle that should be copied.

The result was that the opponents of the government and its policies were severely suppressed and all kinds of inhuman torturing methods were provided for this purpose. Therefore, Safavid rulers could easily burn their opponents in fire, mutilate them and so on. Such savagery became gradually common among ordinary people too.

 

 

Quote

Decline of Safavids
Brutality and lack of tolerance toward other religions were two major factors of the collapse of Safavids. Sunnis and Zoroastrians joined the opposition and showed their hatred toward the religious rulers of the time, like at the end of Sassanians’ rule. Finally, an anti-Shiite uprising put an end to the last incapable Safavid king, Sultan Hossein.

https://www.destinationiran.com/history-safavids-iran-conversion-to-shiism.htm

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Brother, most of the points in the video are laughable basic, seriously not worth debating. If your eeman is 'shook' by such a video, it clearly means you don't even know why Shia'ism is important, what it entails to be a Shia and how being a Shia first, leads one to become a proper Muslim.

In contrast, Sunni'ism is nothing but a bunch of political discourses on protection, glorification and sunnah of neither God, or The Prophet, but the Ashaab. So it's equally creation centric, but without any divine base to be so.

I would suggest you leave Shia'ism if you wish, but before accepting any other sect, start by going through History (you can select neutral authors, or read historical reporting and analysis from both schools of thought), then proceed towards fiqh. This is the path I took. 

Also remember brother, principle of proper research demands you start with a hypothesis, not a conclusion. IA you will reach your goal.

Thanks

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On 8/31/2021 at 6:05 PM, Debate follower said:

If I were to ask 99.9% of members on Shiachat (including you), why they are Shia?  Obviously by birth and not using God-given Aql. Same would go me and majority of Sunnis of every shade and colour obviously by birth.

Salam, I made an oath to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that if Sunni is the right sect, I will leave Shia Islam immediately. My father is not that educated when it’s come to religion, So I stared learning by myself through YouTube videos and then Shia websites. After few days I dreamt about imam Hussein (عليه السلام), I don’t know if that’s him but my heart told me it’s him and that’s what I felt too. I started learning the difference between Sunni and Shia. I am 100% sure that our sect is the right sect. Even tho I was born as a Shia, I never cared about religion that much until I wanted to know why Sunni and Shia exist. I’m just trying to say that there is a chance a Shia can convert to another religion or move to another sect, but the reason why they chance is because they know little or nothing about Shia Islam. 

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I mean look at OP and his persona. What kind of guy signs up to a forum just to announce he is not going to be amongst the community. 

Like 'hi guys, my first time posting on 4x4forum.com. I've owned a dozen SUVs in my life and practiced offroad for twenty years, and seriously this video about green energy just made me consider going electric'. 

Also look at that Shia not even giving a salam. Typical of salafis who consider shias kufar and haram to salute them.

 

When will the world acknowledge Sunni taqiyya? 

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On 9/1/2021 at 10:54 AM, Cool said:

 

If he was a shia by birth he should have to be tough enough to cater these 10 points mentioned in video. Shia by birth means receiving the love of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in genes and in the breast milk. Then there is a whole school of azadari in place which makes familiar our kids with the Quran and Islamic history as well as the fada'il & masa'ib of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

The ground reality is unfortunately different from how you portray it brother. However that's a different topic which we don't necessarily need to discuss in this thread.

In any case, the brother may very well be what he says he is, and even if he isn't at least the points have been clarified now. 

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3 hours ago, realizm said:

I mean look at OP and his persona. What kind of guy signs up to a forum just to announce he is not going to be amongst the community. 

Like 'hi guys, my first time posting on 4x4forum.com. I've owned a dozen SUVs in my life and practiced offroad for twenty years, and seriously this video about green energy just made me consider going electric'. 

Also look at that Shia not even giving a salam. Typical of salafis who consider shias kufar and haram to salute them.

 

When will the world acknowledge Sunni taqiyya? 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 3:54 AM, Cool said:

If he was a shia by birth he should have to be tough enough to cater these 10 points mentioned in video. Shia by birth means receiving the love of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in genes and in the breast milk. Then there is a whole school of azadari in place which makes familiar our kids with the Quran and Islamic history as well as the fada'il & masa'ib of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

The only proof we need is this statement from #NotBaseer, "Taqiyya and hiding beliefs from Sunnis makes no sense Islamically to me." This is standard salafi misconception that he regurgitated. 

 

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5 hours ago, Diaz said:

Salam, I made an oath to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that if Sunni is the right sect, I will leave Shia Islam immediately. My father is not that educated when it’s come to religion, So I stared learning by myself through YouTube videos and then Shia websites. After few days I dreamt about imam Hussein (عليه السلام), I don’t know if that’s him but my heart told me it’s him and that’s what I felt too. I started learning the difference between Sunni and Shia. I am 100% sure that our sect is the right sect. Even tho I was born as a Shia, I never cared about religion that much until I wanted to know why Sunni and Shia exist. I’m just trying to say that there is a chance a Shia can convert to another religion or move to another sect, but the reason why they chance is because they know little or nothing about Shia Islam. 

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam brother, You must agree that you couldn’t be absolute neutral to begin with, after all even if your respected father is non-committed Shia, the atmosphere around the house, meeting Shia relatives and attending Majlis, and even though not listening attentively to Zakirs and your Ulemah, you were fed all the negativities about the Sunni beliefs.  You were always in Shia environment.  There will always be an inbuilt bias against Sunni Islam.

I am glad you have become practicing Shia. Do the good deeds that earn Allah Almighty’s Pleasure.  Now, it is your duty to 'work' on your respected father.  It is your duty as a dutiful son!

5 hours ago, Diaz said:

I’m just trying to say that there is a chance a Shia can convert to another religion or move to another sect, but the reason why they chance is because they know little or nothing about Shia Islam. 

Our respected brothers here, Ali bin Hussein and Zaidism left 12er Shiaism for Zaidiyyah Islam – You can see them debating here very confidently with 12ers. You must vouch for them that they are very knowledgeable about 12er faith.  And there are others who left 12er Shia for Sunnism.

Allama Sayyid Abu al-fadl Burqa‘i one of the most famous jurists in Qom who was critical of certain 12er Shiaism beliefs and left 12er Shiaism.  Would you say that he “knew little or nothing about (12er) Shia Islam?  There are many other 12er Shia scholars who left and opted out.  So, your saying that they left because they had no knowledge of what they were leaving is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah_Borqei

Edited by Debate follower
grammar ;)
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33 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Our respected brothers here, Ali bin Hussein and Zaidism left 12er Shiaism for Zaidiyyah Islam – You can see them debating here very confidently with 12ers. You must vouch for them that they are very knowledgeable about 12er faith.  And there are others who left 12er Shia for Sunnism.

Allama Sayyid Abu al-fadl Burqa‘i one of the most famous jurists in Qom who was critical of certain 12er Shiaism beliefs and left 12er Shiaism.  Would you say that he “knew little or nothing about (12er) Shia Islam?  There are many other 12er Shia scholars who left and opted out.  So, your saying that they left because they had no knowledge of what they were leaving is wrong.

I wasn’t talking about the other sect of Shia, I was talking about Sunnis and non Muslims.

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7 hours ago, Diaz said:

I am 100% sure that our sect is the right sect. Even tho I was born as a Shia, I never cared about religion that much until I wanted to know why Sunni and Shia exist. 

You missed an important part.

ALL sects are wrong. ALL sects were created by man. 
 

if you want to be a true Muslim stop listen to men and start listening to Allah. 
quran 

6:159

Surely, those who have made divisions in their religion and turned into factions, you have nothing to do with them. Their case rests with Allah alone; then He will tell them what they have been doing.

 

Stop worrying about everyone else. And btw there should be no reason to dream about any imams. They are not Divine……

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