Zaydi - Twelver (Debate 4)

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

However, my point is the 12th imam himself does not guide, it isn’t a difficult point to grasp.

This can only be said by the one who has no idea whatsoever of the "wilayat e takiwiniyyah" of Imam. 

"Guidance" itself has two possible ways:

1. Tashri'i Guidance

2. Takwini Guidance

Those who understand the wilayat-e-takwiniyyah, knows that Imam of time is guiding by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And his guidance, at this point of time, is purely the takwini guidance. 

Imam has spiritual influence on believer and he has influence on the hearts of believers. 

فالإمامة تتضمّن من جهة الهداية التكوينية النفوذ الروحي للإمام وتأثيره على القلوب المستعدّة للهداية المعنوية، فهو بمنزلة الشمس التي تبعث الحياة في الأرض، فالقوّة الروحية للإمام لها التأثير العميق على هداية الناس

There are many ahadith confirming the above text:

قد سئل النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) عن كيفية الانتفاع بالإمام المهدي (عليه السلام) في غيبته ، فقال : ( إي والذي بعثني بالنبوة إنهم يستضيئون بنوره وينتفعون بولايته في غيبته كانتفاع الناس بالشمس وإن تجلّلها السحاب ) ( إكمال الدين 1 / 253 ) .

وروي عن الإمام الصادق (عليه السلام) أنه قال ـ بعد أن سئل عن كيفية انتفاع الناس بالحجة الغائب المستور ـ : (كما ينتفعون بالشمس إذا سترها ) ( إكمال الدين 1 / 207 ) .

How can you have any idea of this while you are following man made Imams, who are lacking much. Here is another hadith: 

الحسين بن محمد، عن معلى بن محمد، عن علي بن مرداس قال: حدثنا صفوان بن يحيى والحسن بن محبوب عن أبي أيوب، عن أبي خالد الكابلي قال: سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) عن قول الله عز وجل: (فآمنوا بالله ورسوله والنور الذي أنزلنا) فقال: يا أبا خالد النور والله الأئمة من آل محمد (عليهم السلام) إلى يوم القيامة وهم والله نور الله الذي أنزل، وهم والله نور الله في السماوات وفي الأرض والله يا أبا خالد! لنور الإمام في قلوب المؤمنين أنور من الشمس المضيئة بالنهار، وهم والله ينورون قلوب المؤمنين ويحجب الله عز وجل نورهم عمن يشاء فتظلم قلوبهم، والله يا أبا خالد! لا يحبنا عبد يتولانا حتى يطهر الله قلبه ولا يطهر الله قلب عبد حتى يسلم لنا ويكون سلما لنا، فإذا كان سلما لنا سلمه الله من شديد الحساب وآمنه من فزع يوم القيامة الأكبر.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1178_شرح-أصول-الكافي-مولي-محمد-صالح-المازندراني-ج-٥/الصفحة_175

By God, O Abu Khaled!  The light of the Imam, in the hearts of the believers, is brighter than the sun that shines during the day, and they, by God, enlighten the hearts of the believers, and God Almighty will withhold their light from whom He wills, so their hearts are darkened. By God, O Abu Khaled!  A servant does not love us until God purifies his heart, and God does not purify the heart of a servant until he submits to us and is at peace with us.

Imam Abu Ja'far (عليه السلام)

Edited September 6, 2021 by Cool
Added translation

[Zaydism]

2 hours ago, Cool said:

فالإمامة تتضمّن من جهة الهداية التكوينية النفوذ الروحي للإمام وتأثيره على القلوب المستعدّة للهداية المعنوية، فهو بمنزلة الشمس التي تبعث الحياة في الأرض، فالقوّة الروحية للإمام لها التأثير العميق على هداية الناس

 

Okay, so a mystical explanation that exists textually, as it cannot be demonstrated as a logical necessity, nor can it be shown to serve in practical matters of creed.

2 hours ago, Cool said:

قد سئل النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) عن كيفية الانتفاع بالإمام المهدي (عليه السلام) في غيبته ، فقال : ( إي والذي بعثني بالنبوة إنهم يستضيئون بنوره وينتفعون بولايته في غيبته كانتفاع الناس بالشمس وإن تجلّلها السحاب ) ( إكمال الدين 1 / 253 ) .

 

Another mystical explanation that can equally be given by the dozens of sects that believe their Imams are occult as well.

2 hours ago, Cool said:

By God, O Abu Khaled!  The light of the Imam, in the hearts of the believers, is brighter than the sun that shines during the day, and they, by God, enlighten the hearts of the believers, and God Almighty will withhold their light from whom He wills, so their hearts are darkened. By God, O Abu Khaled!  A servant does not love us until God purifies his heart, and God does not purify the heart of a servant until he submits to us and is at peace with us.

You're not making any argument, you're simply playing with mystical interpretations to an illogically existing belief that you have and then you add superstition so if someone questions such incoherence you blame them for not being purified. 

The grave mistake you commit with this belief in occultation is you attribute injustice to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by saying one ought to believe in a hidden Imam who was never seen, who the Shi'i cannot communicate with, and all that leads to him is the dogma placed from scholars who came later and formulated this grand deception.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you in thinking better of Him, Exalted is He above what you attribute to Him of injustices. 

[layman]

51 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Okay, so a mystical explanation that exists textually, as it cannot be demonstrated as a logical necessity, nor can it be shown to serve in practical matters of creed.

Another mystical explanation that can equally be given by the dozens of sects that believe their Imams are occult as well.

You're not making any argument, you're simply playing with mystical interpretations to an illogically existing belief that you have and then you add superstition so if someone questions such incoherence you blame them for not being purified. 

The grave mistake you commit with this belief in occultation is you attribute injustice to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by saying one ought to believe in a hidden Imam who was never seen, who the Shi'i cannot communicate with, and all that leads to him is the dogma placed from scholars who came later and formulated this grand deception.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you in thinking better of Him, Exalted is He above what you attribute to Him of injustices. 

Our Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our current Prophet, even though there is no physical Prophet that exist now.   There is nothing wrong to believe that Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our current Prophet even though he is now physical available to the current Ummah.  If we believe that Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is just a past Prophet and has not relationship with us, we are out of Islam.  That is the power of mystic!   Not physically available is not mean we are disconnected with our Prophet.  We are connected to our Prophet even when make our salah.  The 12th Imam is here to rule and available to all who want to connect with him.  

[Zaydism]

1 minute ago, layman said:

Our Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our current Prophet, even though there is no physical Prophet that exist now.   There is nothing wrong to believe that Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is our current Prophet even though he is now physical available to the current Ummah.  If we believe that Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is just a past Prophet and has not relationship with us, we are out of Islam.  That is the power of mystic!   Not physically available is not mean we are disconnected with our Prophet.  We are connected to our Prophet even when make our salah.  The 12th Imam is here to rule and available to all who want to connect with him.  

The issue is you're presenting a doctrine where there has to be an Imam in every time, place, and era; we ask why? You say for the sake of guidance, now this 'guidance' has turned into a mystical relationship. It is beyond clear that the 12th Imam only serves to fill your gap in imamate, because Al-Hassan Al-'Askari ((عليه السلام)) died without a son. Lets say he had a son and that son didn't die, and that son died without a son then you'd be 13ers, etc. Do you get my point? Your designation was Imam to Imam, the critique towards that is after every Imam everyone was lost and didn't know where to go. Again, if you think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is going to make us believe in someone that nobody has seen, communicated with, been able to reach and comes with this condition of political quietism (again I wonder who that benefits and who coincidentally supported it) then you've went against everything the Prophet ever came with and that is to bring justice, clarity, and clear guidance. What kind of justice has your political quietism established in the past 1187 years, what kind of clarity are you pointing towards when you can't even provide a Hadith that designates an occult Imam, or twelve particular imams at that. You all need to wake up and seriously start reassessing your positions, do you really think if a 1000+ occultation was destined to occur the Prophet wouldn't even hint at it. I find it mindboggling how some have come to use the past occultations that occurred to somehow prove this belief was circulating, I mean talk about desperation really. The twelfth imam is here to rule right? And we will all sit for maybe another thousand or so years paying up that khums while we could instead actively make a difference, you don't need to wait for a savior we have all what we need and we can make a difference. 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Okay, so a mystical explanation that exists textually

You cannot actually understand these sort of explanations because what you know about Imamate is very basic what we call سطحي information. 

You cannot grasp & digest the takwini aspect of Imamate. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed Imam as witness over creation according to many verses of Quran. So you may be surprised that how can an Imam in occultation becomes witness over people!! 

هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ

22:78

P

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِّتَكُونُواْ شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

2:143

P

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا جِئْنَا مِن كُلِّ أمَّةٍ بِشَهِيدٍ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ عَلَى هَـؤُلاء شَهِيدًا

4:41

 

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِم مِّنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَى هَـؤُلاء

16:89

These sort of verses goes above your head. We have alhamdolillah, with us the explanation & ta'vil of these verses. We have a true understanding of the very definition of Imam whose obedience is made obligatory by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

These sort of takwini affairs are beyond your understandings. 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

You're not making any argument, you're simply playing with mystical interpretations to an illogically existing belief

Ohh, is it that illogical?? Let me know then which of your Imam appointed as witness over people as mentioned in above quoted verses? None of them can even dare to claim it. 

 

 

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Okay, so a mystical explanation that exists textually, as it cannot be demonstrated as a logical necessity, nor can it be shown to serve in practical matters of creed.

Another mystical explanation that can equally be given by the dozens of sects that believe their Imams are occult as well.

So do you not believe in ghayb? unseen ie out of sight?

Do you think Imam Mahdi is alone in ghayb? ie occultation?

Edited September 6, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The issue is you're presenting a doctrine where there has to be an Imam in every time, place, and era; we ask why? You say for the sake of guidance, now this 'guidance' has turned into a mystical relationship. I

So you take all the zaidya imams as present physically for their selection , that gives rise to the following questions that needs answer from your side:

The religion Islam has two sources of guidance ie Quran and the sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (and imams from his purified progeny(for shia) , brother @Cool have shared  hadith / narration about imam Mahdi, yes he is in occultation and you do not believe, but:

1. Your imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). has been chosen and selected by the people, where is the verse of quran as first  source of religion that defines the principle that people can choose imams for their guidance? 

2.  From the second source of guidance in religion please quote us a hadith that zaidiya imams particularly Zaid bin Ali after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), are chosen / selected as mentioned in the hadith.

3.  Where is the hadith of the prophet that Zaidiya imams chosen by the people  as per zaiidya claims provide the guidance to the people of our nation particularly Zaid bin Ali after Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام)?

As the religion islam is based on quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for all  sects then the above evidences are vital for confirmation  of zaidiya claims.

wasalam

Edited September 6, 2021 by Muslim2010

[User 313]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:19 AM, Zaidism said:

Salam brother, thank you for choosing to engage in the discussion. 

The point you make is that there needs to be a guide at all times, I partially agree with that statement as we should have a member from the Ahlulbayt leading the community in matters of the Shari'ah. However, this is not an absolute necessity to the point that we would all be misguided if it wasn't the case, and the intellect is forced to concur to this reality. You mention the need to have a guide, I touched on that topic here:

I am more than happy to continue the discussion with you in terms of the absolute necessity of guidance in all times and how this is actually antithetical to your current reality as the twelfth imam does not administer guidance, as per what 'Asif Muhsini states:

 المجهتدين القادِرين على استنباط الأحكَام الظّاهرية مِن أدلتها حتى لا تُنقض الرّوايات بعصر الغيبة التي امتدّت أكثر ألف سَنة، وربّما تمتد الى آلاف أو مَلايين السّنين. فَإن المُؤمنين لَم تنفعُوا و لا يَنتفعون من إمَامِهم الغائب- عجل الله تعالى فرجه- في الأصُول و الفروع، ومَا يُقَال بخِلاف ذَلك فَهُو تَخيّلٌ وَ توهُّمٌ وَ لَعبٌ بالعُقُول)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:1/407-408] .

The Ummah does not benefit from the twelfth Imam, neither in matters of Usool al-deen, nor Furu’ al-deen. He mentions that anyone who holds an opposing opinion is conflicted in understanding and is toying with their minds. 

‎- وقال آصف محسنيّ في موضعٍ آخر : ((ولا يُمكن القَول بانتفاعنا منهُ (ع) في زمَن الغيبة في الأمُور الدينيّة إلّا ممَّن سَلب الله عَقله)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:2/223] .

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

Therefore, the twelver exegesis of 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

We sent before you none (as apostles) but men, to whom We sent revelations. In case you are unaware, enquire of those who are keepers of the Oracles of God. {16:43} 

has been disproven and has no basis, for this cannot be implemented in regards to the twelfth Imam. 

Contradicting what Al-Kulayni shares in Al-Kafi 1/178, and what you are upon:

 الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٧٨ (shiaonlinelibrary.com)

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

@muslim313

[dragonxx]

20 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The grave mistake you commit with this belief in occultation is you attribute injustice to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by saying one ought to believe in a hidden Imam who was never seen

Well technically he was seen before he went into occultation. Why do you call such a thing an injustice to Allah? What is the injustice?

18 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The twelfth imam is here to rule right? And we will all sit for maybe another thousand or so years paying up that khums while we could instead actively make a difference

"Rest assured, no one has a special relationship with God. Whoever denies me is not from my (community). The appearance of the Relief depends solely upon God. Therefore, those who propose a certain time for it are liars. As to the benefit of my existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it." I don't think that is a tough concept to grasp for a believer; a lot of what we call "faith" (which atheists lack) relies on this premise.

The way I see the occultation is the same as what the posters above pointed out:

1-there must by definition as per Quran be a guide to mankind at all times; it doesn't restrict the nature of the way the guide guides, therefore it is not right that you state face-to-face communication is necessary to guide

2-that person must be from ahlulbayt, chosen by God via the Prophet > Imam Ali > Imam Hasan > Imam Hussein > Imam al Sajjad, and so on.

3-keeping the quote i cited above in mind, occultation fits the bill for the above two criteria, whereas a random descendant from the line of Hasan ((عليه السلام)) or Hussein ((عليه السلام)) arising after 1000s of years fails to meet the above two criteria

As for the Prophet (pbuhf) not commenting on the major occultation, I don't know enough where that's true or not, but I do know that if any of the chosen guides after the Prophet state something truthful, then it is as if the Prophet (pbuhf) said it himself.

Therefore Twelver position is more plausible than Zaydi? 

 

[Zaydism]

On 9/6/2021 at 7:41 PM, dragonxx said:

What is the injustice?

That which indicates the falsity of the silent call and the occultation with the immense need for the Imam is what Allah says regarding him in particular, and regarding the scholars in general: {It is only those among His servants who have knowledge that fear Allah} [35:28], and: {Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse, Except for those who repent and correct themselves and make evident [what they concealed]. Those - I will accept their repentance, and I am the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.} [2:159-160] and this is the essence of warning and reckoning, as one can see, and the Imams are those who are most fearful of Allah, and transgression (sin) according to the twelvers is not possible for the Imams to commit. And that which we have regarding the divine promise is that their imamate becomes null, for declaration does not occur through concealment as every rational mind would concur; and with us he is needed for matters which pertain to Islamic governance, and they are not made except by the Imam, and for the twelvers the Imam is tied to the matters which pertain to the benefit of this world, and the next, to the extent that everything relies on him.

Therefore, the need for his appearance, and for him to be known is much greater going by that, and it follows that concealment on his part ought to not be permissible for a moment, for there isn’t a time except that the need for him calls to fulfill its religious and worldly demands, and the All Wise - Exalted is He - does not cause us to rise towards a matter pertaining to our religion, except that He causes for us a means towards it, and considering that following the Prophet (S) is an obligation upon the imams from his sons - upon him and them be peace - in particular, how can it be otherwise so?

Allah has said: {Let those who go against His [the messengers'] decree be wary} [24:63] and this matter pertains to utterances, and actions, and that is the meaning of leadership; it has been known that following his jurisdiction in religious matters is an obligation. And he (S) remained through his open decree calling the people to his Lord with the best of fair-preaching. Calling from the beginning (of receiving the message) to the end of his life. Likewise, ‘Ali and his sons, they made themselves known to the public, so as to make their being a binding proof over the people until they departed to Allah - Exalted is He - how can they hide themselves when they are the shelters in the face of uncertainty and trials in matters of religion?! For if the religion would be confined, it would not be confined to other than that which is esoteric besides the Lord.

You believe that Imam Al-Mahdi is alive, and occult. He sees and is not seen, he is present with the people, and he is a proof (Hujjah) over the people, and their rescuer from damnation and chastisement; What is the sin of the confused if this is the description of the proof of Allah (Al-Hujjah), where there is no means to reach him? What is his sin in the face of his Lord, for the Imams are obliged to make themselves known, and advise the people; let alone those who seek to be in his presence and seek to increase his audience.

If you say 'The Imam is a mercy, and he has not been permitted to appear.'

It is necessary that either the mercy occurs, or one is able to reach it, as Allah had made for the disbeliever a means towards Him and he willingly leaves the means to inference. The Imam is not such, for we and the twelvers do not have any means to reach him, so how can it be a mercy when we cannot reach it, and Allah does not cause it to occur in the first place? None from the people of knowledge say that, and it has been fundamentally known that if the mercy is necessarily caused by the Imam, and Allah knows that the Imam will not cause that action, it follows that Allah will not hold someone with such an obligation unless he causes the action that he has been known for.

Imam Ali is the best example, for we see that with the deviance of the Ummah from him, and taking the matter into their own hands ahead of him; he was never late to any processions, and he was not absent at times when a Hujjah (proof) was needed to be presented, an advice meted, a reminder given. All that is known and found within his sermons, stances, aphorisms, and letters. What is the judgement upon an Imam who does not follow the example of ‘Ali b. Abi Talib? What is the judgement placed on him by the Muslims?

On 9/6/2021 at 7:41 PM, dragonxx said:

As to the benefit of my existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it."

‎قال الشّيخ آصف محسنيّ يتكلّم عن خبر أنّ الأرض لا تبقَى بدون إمَامٍ أو لساخَت، فتكلّم عن دور الفيض أو التّكوين وأنّه ممكنٌ من دور المهدي ، ثمّ قال : ((وإن أُريدَ جهة تشريع و تَبيين المَعارف و الأحكام، فَلا بدّ مِن‌ التَعدِّي إلى العُلماء المجهتدين القادِرين على استنباط الأحكَام الظّاهرية مِن أدلتها حتى لا تُنقض الرّوايات بعصر الغيبة التي امتدّت أكثر ألف سَنة، وربّما تمتد الى آلاف أو مَلايين السّنين. فَإن المُؤمنين لَم تنفعُوا و لا يَنتفعون من إمَامِهم الغائب- عجل الله تعالى فرجه- في الأصُول و الفروع، ومَا يُقَال بخِلاف ذَلك فَهُو تَخيّلٌ وَ توهُّمٌ وَ لَعبٌ بالعُقُول)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:1/407-408] .

‘Asif Muhsini states: 

The Ummah does not benefit from the twelfth Imam, neither in matters of Usool al-deen, nor Furu’ al-deen. He mentions that anyone who holds an opposing opinion is conflicted in understanding and is toying with their minds. 

‎- وقال آصف محسنيّ في موضعٍ آخر : ((ولا يُمكن القَول بانتفاعنا منهُ (ع) في زمَن الغيبة في الأمُور الدينيّة إلّا ممَّن سَلب الله عَقله)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:2/223] .

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

On 9/6/2021 at 7:41 PM, dragonxx said:

it is not right that you state face-to-face communication is necessary to guide

I challenge you to give me an instance in the history of revelation, and scripture where Allah did not convey His guidance to the people through face-to-face communication.

Remember, Allah - Exalted is He - says:  {A consistent practice of Allah in the matter of those who have gone before. And you will never find a change in Allah’s consistent practice.} [33:62]

{You will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.} [35:43]

On 9/6/2021 at 7:41 PM, dragonxx said:

that person must be from ahlulbayt, chosen by God via the Prophet

Allah says:

{Accept whatever the Messenger gives you, and abstain from whatever he forbids you.} [59:7]

and

{Today, I have perfected your religion for you, and have completed My blessing upon you, and chosen Islam as Dīn (religion and a way of life) for you.} [5:3]

The Messenger says:

"I have been called, and I answered (my time of death has come), indeed I have left the thaqalayn (two weighty things) among you, one of them is greater form the other, the book of Allah and my 'itra (family), my ahl al-bayt (household). So look after how you will behave with them after me, indeed they will never separate from each other until they enter my presence by the pool [in the paradise]."

The 'itra are the sons of Fatema - Upon her be Peace - and they do not separate from the Quran, and they certainly do not go occult to benefit the Abbasid agenda of promoting political quietism through the Imami creed. 

The sons of Fatema, the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt revolted, established governments, and physically guided the people. You see the reason why the Prophet said the Quran is greater than the 'itra is because the 'itra is a means to an end. The end is to establish the Shari'ah of Allah, and in order to do so an Imam is necessary. Not that the religion should revolve around him, but that he be there to fill the need of the Ummah when it comes to leading them. 

There was no designation of anyone besides the first three Imams in particular, and the 'itra, as a collective community as echoed by Hadith Thaqalayn, and as maintained by [35:32] {Then We conveyed the Book as an heritage to those of Our slaves whom We chose. Now, some of them are those who wrong their own selves, and some of them take the middle course, and some of them are those who outpace (others) in righteous deeds with Allah’s permission. That is the great bounty}

Check Tafsir Mizan, check 'Uyun Akhbar Al-Ridha, check Amali al-Saduq; you will find that even in your authentic Hadiths this verse is interpreted as referring to the sons of Fatema (collectively).

{Moses said to them, ‘Beware, do not invent lies against God or He will destroy you with His punishment. Whoever invents lies will fail.} [20:61]

On 9/6/2021 at 7:41 PM, dragonxx said:

Twelver position is

{the weakest of houses} [29:41]

[dragonxx]

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You believe that Imam Al-Mahdi is alive, and occult. He sees and is not seen, he is present with the people, and he is a proof (Hujjah) over the people, and their rescuer from damnation and chastisement; What is the sin of the confused if this is the description of the proof of Allah (Al-Hujjah), where there is no means to reach him? What is his sin in the face of his Lord, for the Imams are obliged to make themselves known, and advise the people; let alone those who seek to be in his presence and seek to increase his audience.

Allah can designate and grant power how he wills, as you know. For example, Jesus ((عليه السلام)) raised the dead, by permission of Allah. Likewise, similar powers can be granted to the Imam of our time. My point of saying this: in effect, you are pointing out a paradox; no means to reach our Imam who is present with the people but not physically there. So I ask, how are you capable to reach Allah?

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Therefore, the need for his appearance, and for him to be known is much greater going by that, and it follows that concealment on his part ought to not be permissible for a moment, for there isn’t a time except that the need for him calls to fulfill its religious and worldly demands, and the All Wise - Exalted is He - does not cause us to rise towards a matter pertaining to our religion, except that He causes for us a means towards it, and considering that following the Prophet (S) is an obligation upon the imams from his sons - upon him and them be peace - in particular, how can it be otherwise so?

In effect, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) put up a veil against the caliphate and concealed himself for 6 months. He did not slaughter ibn abu quahafa and ibn al khattab and othman etc. I mention this because later you claim that Imam Ali always fought against false leaders, and that he and his sons did not hide themselves at all etc. etc. That's simply not true.

I will go further than that and point out that the Prophet (pbuhf) did conceal himself for years. The people did not have access to his revelation throughout his life. After he received revelation from Jibrael ((عليه السلام)); he confided only in a select few, then later only near relatives, and only much much later did he go public. Is this not a form of concealment? A lack of declaration? Where was he when Ammar was speaking on his family getting tortured? The Prophet, the strongest warrior, why did he not go save them with the ease that he could have? 

The answer to all these questions is simple; they act for the benefit of Islam. If they fight, it's for Islam. If they don't fight and stay silent and even conceal themselves, it's for Islam. And both the Prophet (pbuhf), Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) demonstrated this at varying stages of their lives.

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

how can they hide themselves when they are the shelters in the face of uncertainty and trials in matters of religion?!

Just to stick the nail in the coffin; at the largest turning point in Islam, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) didn't pick up a sword and kill the usurpers and oppressors, he chose patience while people fell into evil all around him.

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

It is necessary that either the mercy occurs, or one is able to reach it, as Allah had made for the disbeliever a means towards Him and he willingly leaves the means to inference. The Imam is not such, for we and the twelvers do not have any means to reach him, so how can it be a mercy when we cannot reach it, and Allah does not cause it to occur in the first place?

Bold claim. I ask you, are you cognizant of all the mercies Allah has showered upon you? Certainly you must admit not. Thus you cannot dictate that there is a mercy, no matter the form, that we cannot reach when we are not even aware of the mercies bestowed upon us.

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

Cool, the Imam doesn't tell us verbally and directly that using a computer 24 hours a day 7 days a week or whatever is haram because he is not physically present on planet Earth the same way we are apparently, yes? Please explain to me how every single person across the world benefitted from Imam Ali's direct instructions when he was alive.

In fact, please answer if direct instruction from a chosen guide on religious law was even necessary to be among the guided? (Spoiler: As I recall it there was a young man who never met the Prophet (pbuhf) yet was still counted among the best of people)

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The 'itra are the sons of Fatema - Upon her be Peace - and they do not separate from the Quran, and they certainly do not go occult to benefit the Abbasid agenda of promoting political quietism through the Imami creed. 

Feel free to admit that is your own personal interpretation and is not founded on the basis of whether the actions of the Imams preserves Islam or not.

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

"I have been called, and I answered (my time of death has come), indeed I have left the thaqalayn (two weighty things) among you, one of them is greater form the other, the book of Allah and my 'itra (family), my ahl al-bayt (household). So look after how you will behave with them after me, indeed they will never separate from each other until they enter my presence by the pool [in the paradise]."

So tell me, the Quran is preserved and still around, yes? Where is that other weighty thing which isn't supposed to separate until it enters the Prophet's presence?

 

Wrapping up,

Ultimately you are just upset that there is no direct instruction from a messenger/guide to answer all your personal life problems. I wager had you been born in the era of the Prophet (pbuhf) but never met him, you would be in a similar internal conflict you are now; why doesn't God send him to my city? Why isn't he made available to me, directly? Why can't he tell me what I should and shouldn't do to my face or through FaceTime, pun intended?

In conclusion, there is a guide for humanity at all times, we do benefit from the Imam though we perceive it not, and he will return when Allah deems it fitting.

“If you were to count God’s favors, you would not be able to number them; most surely humanity is very unjust, very ungrateful.” (Qur’an, 14:34)

Edited October 2, 2021 by dragonxx
typos

[Muslim2010]

On 9/6/2021 at 6:37 AM, Muslim2010 said:

So you take all the zaidya imams as present physically for their selection , that gives rise to the following questions that needs answer from your side:

The religion Islam has two sources of guidance ie Quran and the sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (and imams from his purified progeny(for shia) , brother @Cool have shared  hadith / narration about imam Mahdi, yes he is in occultation and you do not believe, but:

1. Your imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). has been chosen and selected by the people, where is the verse of quran as first  source of religion that defines the principle that people can choose imams for their guidance? 

2.  From the second source of guidance in religion please quote us a hadith that zaidiya imams particularly Zaid bin Ali after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), are chosen / selected as mentioned in the hadith.

3.  Where is the hadith of the prophet that Zaidiya imams chosen by the people  as per zaiidya claims provide the guidance to the people of our nation particularly Zaid bin Ali after Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام)?

As the religion islam is based on quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for all  sects then the above evidences are vital for confirmation  of zaidiya claims.

wasalam

If there are answers to these questions by evidences these are awaited. (from Zaidiya)

 

 

[Zaydism]

@dragonxx Apologies for the late response brother! This should address all your concerns and more InshaAllah  

 

 

[dragonxx]

11 hours ago, Zaidism said:

@dragonxx Apologies for the late response brother! This should address all your concerns and more InshaAllah  

 

 

Unfortunately after reading this thread I have not seen something that directly addresses some of the points of my last post.

I do see some clear contradictions in what you're saying though, such as "the people don't choose their imams" while simultaneously saying "the one who is most fit deserves to be the leader". What is the difference between that; you're effectively saying you have to be convinced about the most fit, i.e. you and smarties like you choose the leader lol.

If what I said isn't true, you need to elaborate how you would deem who is most fit, because last I checked the only ones capable of doing that are the God's chosen ones.Otherwise we end up with Trumps and Muawiyahs =)

[Zaydism]

16 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

"the people don't choose their imams"

Sure, so those who are rightful for the position of Imamah are those who have been mentioned by the Messenger, either individually such as Imam Ali, Hassan, and Hussein, or generally such as the community of his progeny as per Hadith Thaqalayn.

17 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

"the one who is most fit deserves to be the leader".

The most fit is the one from the second branch mentioned in Hadith al-Thaqalayn, he is he who is upon the third category of this verse:

Then We gave the Scripture as a heritage to those of Our servants whom We selected: so of them is one who is unjust to himself, and one who follows a middle course, and one who is a forerunner in good deeds—by Allah’s leave. That is what the great grace is. {35:32}

What is meant by most fit, is a cumulative case, as one can be most fit in terms of economic expertise, but not so much in terms of knowledge over religious matters. Therefore, the most fit is he who meets the requirements of being (a) one who is able to lead the affairs of the Muslims in matters of their Halal & Haram, as well as (b) able to administer the Hudud, etc. 

23 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Otherwise we end up with Trumps and Muawiyahs =)

This is an impossibility, as uprightness is a condition.

You may ask, what if there are two candidates to the Imamah, what is done in this case is that the scholars look at the one who rose to the call of enjoining good and forbidding evil first, if both rose for the call at the same time then one would look at their case cumulatively, and see who is most fit for leading the Ummah. 

In the end the purpose isn't finding an Immaculate Imam who is absolutely perfect in those minute of intricacies, as this will lead to nothing but bickering, or fantasies. The Zaydi Imamah is a means to an end, unlike the 12er Imamah. The purpose of the Zaydi Imamah is so that people rule by the book of Allah, and the Sunnah of His Messenger, as per the teachings of the Ahl al-Bayt. 

[dragonxx]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

What is meant by most fit, is a cumulative case, as one can be most fit in terms of economic expertise, but not so much in terms of knowledge over religious matters. Therefore, the most fit is he who meets the requirements of being (a) one who is able to lead the affairs of the Muslims in matters of their Halal & Haram, as well as (b) able to administer the Hudud, etc. 

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

This is an impossibility, as uprightness is a condition.

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

then one would look at their case cumulatively, and see who is most fit for leading the Ummah

You're not answering the question brother. Who makes the determination?

Is it the people as you later say?

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

purpose of the Zaydi Imamah is so that people rule by the book of Allah

Surely you can give me a straight answer.

Is it the people who choose (based on the criteria you posted) or not?

[Zaydism]

1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

You're not answering the question brother. Who makes the determination?

 

I believe I did, I will go ahead and say what I mentioned in the thread I shared with you, as you claimed to have went through it. 

The Imam rises and calls to himself, asking the people to give him Bay'ah, if he carries the qualities of Imamah that I mentioned, then the people give Bay'ah to him. 

So, it's not some type of democratic election of an Imam, because the masses aren't able to make those decisions, this is why the Muslims foolishly chose Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and 'Uthman ahead of Imam 'Ali.

I would also like to not that this is a discussion that is revolving around the occultation, not Zaydi Imamah, so shifting the goalpost won't resolve the blatant errancy of such a belief that the Ahl al-Bayt are free of, I would also like to mention that philosophical wordplay will not prove there being a particular occult Imam by the name Muhammad b. al-Hassan al-'Askari, because you need to first establish that it is indeed him who is occult, and not Imam al-Kadhim, Imam al-Sadiq, Muhammad b. al-Hanifiyah, etc. 

If you say those sects are extinct, we say that Allah is more just than making the truth rise after the extinction of a sect, and those who believed in the occultation of Imam Kadhim were firm on the belief that there was no designation after Imam Kadhim to anybody, hence their Waqf halting on Imam al-Kadhim. 

[Zaydism]

1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

purpose of the Zaydi Imamah is so that people rule by the book of Allah

 

Oh my, the difference one letter can make! I meant 'ruled'

[dragonxx]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

I believe I did, I will go ahead and say what I mentioned in the thread I shared with you, as you claimed to have went through it. 

The Imam rises and calls to himself, asking the people to give him Bay'ah, if he carries the qualities of Imamah that I mentioned, then the people give Bay'ah to him. 

So, it's not some type of democratic election of an Imam, because the masses aren't able to make those decisions, this is why the Muslims foolishly chose Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and 'Uthman ahead of Imam 'Ali.

I would also like to not that this is a discussion that is revolving around the occultation, not Zaydi Imamah, so shifting the goalpost won't resolve the blatant errancy of such a belief that the Ahl al-Bayt are free of, I would also like to mention that philosophical wordplay will not prove there being a particular occult Imam by the name Muhammad b. al-Hassan al-'Askari, because you need to first establish that it is indeed him who is occult, and not Imam al-Kadhim, Imam al-Sadiq, Muhammad b. al-Hanifiyah, etc. 

If you say those sects are extinct, we say that Allah is more just than making the truth rise after the extinction of a sect, and those who believed in the occultation of Imam Kadhim were firm on the belief that there was no designation after Imam Kadhim to anybody, hence their Waqf halting on Imam al-Kadhim. 

Dear brother, instead of typing all this, a few words would have sufficed to address my question, without a need to shift any goalpost anywhere. Regardless, my question is highly relevant to the occultation; it's all about Imam selection in any era, including ours

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

if he carries the qualities of Imamah that I mentioned

Who determines that he truly carries the aforementioned qualities? The people? or someone specific? Himself? Who? It'll take only 1-3 words max to answer this simple question...

 

[Zaydism]

6 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Who determines

Quran and Sunnah

Qur'an = Qualities of leadership

Sunnah = Fatimid 

Muslims will always need a leader (Imam), in the same manner Iran will always need a Wali Faqih.

The Qur'an gives us the axioms which ought to be present in a leader, which is someone who doesn't commit major sins, is knowledge of the Qur'an and Sunnah so as to lead people in matters of Halal, and Haram, and carries the traits of a believer as mentioned in the Quran. 

This prevents the possibility of there ever being someone like Mu'awiyah in rulership, and it ensures that only those eligible are demonstrably upright, and they are checked by the Quran and Sunnah. Zaydi Imamah is the most practical, and feasible form of Imamah, otherwise it's having rulers like the Saudis, or waiting thousands of years for an Imam that will never come, and while waiting those thousand plus years, you simply leave the rulership in the hands of whoever comes, because 'the Imam will set things straight' If you are reasonable, and sensible like Sayyid Khomeini you'll start a system of WF which is essentially a system that copies the Zaydi model. 

Sure, an infallible, all-knowing, super Imam is better than any Zaydi Imam, but that's just a fantasy.

These matters aren't determined by the people, they are determined by Allah and His Messenger, what the people do is search for someone with these qualities, and give him Bay'ah. If there is more than one person with these qualities, then it is simply in the hands of who rises to the task of leading the Muslims first.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Zaidism

[Zaydism]

6 hours ago, dragonxx said:

my question is highly relevant to the occultation; it's all about Imam selection in any era, including ours

Imam selection in your case is through Nass, and you don't have it.

[dragonxx]

23 hours ago, Zaidism said:

These matters aren't determined by the people, they are determined by Allah and His Messenger, what the people do is search for someone with these qualities, and give him Bay'ah. If there is more than one person with these qualities, then it is simply in the hands of who rises to the task of leading the Muslims first.

So BASICALLY what you're saying is that the people determine who the individual is with the aforementioned qualities... lol.

If you don't see the problem in that... you evidently haven't reflected on history, where 100s of instances exist when a group of people "searched" for someone "qualified" only to have a hitler lead them.
People are unreliable.
They can't identify who has such qualities.
They can't tell the difference between a male and female,
and you expect them to "search" successfully for someone who meets Professor Zaidism's interpretation of what the correct qualities are, assuming everyone can accept your interpretation in the first place!
Meanwhile more than half the human race is walking, if not posting pictures of themselves, with their bare bums showing like donkeys!

Do you still not see the problem with letting the people "decide" "search" "determine" or whatever gymnastic word you want to use in an effort to save face?

You claim its "different"

On 11/28/2021 at 2:04 PM, Zaidism said:

The Imam rises and calls to himself, asking the people to give him Bay'ah, if he carries the qualities of Imamah that I mentioned, then the people give Bay'ah to him. 

So, it's not some type of democratic election of an Imam, because the masses aren't able to make those decisions, this is why the Muslims foolishly chose Abu Bakr, 'Umar, and 'Uthman ahead of Imam 'Ali.

How are the two examples here any different? Anyone can rise up and claim to be an Imam. Anyone can portray the Prof Zaidism qualities with enough support, ESPECIALLY in modern age. In effect, anyone can select anyone. That's even WITH assuming everyone subscribes to your interpretation of Islam, as opposed to the interpretations and commands provided by Ahlul-Bayt ((عليه السلام)).

Allah selected His leader on this Earth every single time, from the start until now. In what world do you think that your genius Prof interpretations of the people "searching" and determining the Imam will supersede this fact?

[Zaydism]

I believe the overall issue is lying with the false comparison, for example what you're doing is comparing infallible Imams with righteous, yet fallible leaders. I wholeheartedly agree with you that an infallible leader/Imam is eons better than any Zaydi Imam. However, the issue is that such beings just don't exist in the real world. One of our Imams, Imam 'Abdullah b. Hamza said to the Imamiyah to bring them their occult infallible Imam and he would be the first to follow! 

The Zaydi model of Imamah is the most practical, and feasible one. It is the only model which can work in the real world, hence the Imamiyah realizing this 1100 years after the pointlessness of waiting for an Imam that will arrive and actually taking the matters of the Shari'ah in their own hands which in turn resulted in the establishment of Wilayat al-Faqih. 

The point you mention about Hitler's arising, and what not is a critique of Sunni Caliphate, not Zaydi Caliphate. The Zaydi Imam is to be obeyed only if he adheres to the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Messenger. The moment an Imam goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah, or commits a major sin such as fornication, or drinking alcohol his Imamah becomes null.

No school between the Muslims is as strict, and practical when it comes to the leadership of the Muslim community. We don't allow fornicators, tyrants, and any such corrupt leaders in the Muslim Ummah, nor do we subscribe to a fantasy of immaculate Imams that (a) cannot be proven under scrutiny as demonstrated in the thread I shared, and (b) cannot be maintained in the practical world.

The best system of Imamah is the Zaydi system, and it is that which ties the Imam to the Qur'an and the Sunnah. 

You mention people being foolish, and not knowing the difference between a man and woman, the issue here is that you seem to step ahead of the Qur'an, and the Sunnah, as I mentioned earlier the people know that the Imam who rises is one who has the objectively necessary qualities of Imamah. 

For example, the Qur'an tells us to establish the Hudud, pay the alms-tax, and pray the Friday prayer, this necessarily entails that the Imam is knowledgeable of matters of Halal, and Haram, and as Imam Zayd says it is necessary that the Imam knows the Muhkm, and Mutshabih of the Qur'an. If you would like to follow my page on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Zaydism I will soon share a more elaborative exposition to these points from the words of Imam Zayd himself. 

What we can say for certain is that there is absolutely no benefit that stems from 12er Imamah, as it is merely a impractical fantasy, and there is no evidence whatsoever for the belief in their Imamah to begin with. 

[dragonxx]

@Zaidism my dear brother, I whole-heartedly disagree with you. You are not recognizing my calls to the fault in your logic and I will demonstrate this again:

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The Zaydi Imam is to be obeyed only if he adheres to the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Messenger. The moment an Imam goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah, or commits a major sin such as fornication, or drinking alcohol his Imamah becomes null.

You claim that the Imam is only to be obeyed if he is consistent with Quran and Sunnah.
You claim that the people should be the judge of this such that if the Imam fails to conduct himself appropriately, the people should not follow him (i.e. the people determine the leader which you embarrassingly try to circumvent repeatedly).

The issue here is that the Imam should be the one holding the people accountable, not the other way around.

In other words, the people are generally incapable of consistently and non-erroneously making correct judgements according to Quran and Sunnah of Rasoolallah. It is not in their capacity, with their limited understanding of the Quran/Sunnah, to select an Imam with complete knowledge of Quran/Sunnah to lead them.
Rather, it is the Imam who illuminates the people with his complete knowledge.
Therefore Allah, His Prophet (pbuhf) and subsequently Imams of Ahlul-Bayt ((عليه السلام)) select the Imam of the people. By this logic, there can only be one individual, and that is our Imam who is in a form of occultation just like how Jesus ((عليه السلام)) and Khidr ((عليه السلام)) were in occultation.

I fail to understand your difficulty in understanding this concept.

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

For example, the Qur'an tells us to establish the Hudud, pay the alms-tax, and pray the Friday prayer, this necessarily entails that the Imam is knowledgeable of matters of Halal, and Haram, and as Imam Zayd says it is necessary that the Imam knows the Muhkm, and Mutshabih of the Qur'an. If you would like to follow my page on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Zaydism I will soon share a more elaborative exposition to these points from the words of Imam Zayd himself. 

This statement demonstrates to me brother that you are unfortunately very haughty, and over-estimating yourself. It is almost as if you are claiming you and others in your school have complete knowledge of Islam such that you are able to select an Imam according to your "complete" understanding of Quran/Sunnah, and hold the Imam accountable. In which case, you and your likes might as well all be leaders given your complete assessment of Quran/Sunnah, and flawless implementation of said assessments.

How is it that an individual with incomplete knowledge is able to appreciate and correctly appoint the leadership of someone with superior, complete knowledge?

Edited December 1, 2021 by dragonxx

[Zaydism]

@dragonxx It is very simple brother, let's look at it this way. 

You follow a scholar in matters of your Furu' and when it comes to Usul no Muslim is permitted to do Taqlid, and this is a point of consensus between all Muslims. If you were to be consistent you would use that same reasoning and question whether other Muslims are truly able to discern if the scholar they're emulating in matters of Halal, and Haram, for example Sayyid Sistani is someone who is truly learned in the Quran and Sunnah?

After all, the Sayyid is only to be emulated if he is consistent with Quran and Sunnah.

So, I ask, how can the people possibly determine this? How can they judge whether Sayyid Sistani is learned in these matters, especially if there are other scholars who are being emulated as well, and some with other views than Sayyid Sistani! Surely, you can't expect the people to know who to do Taqlid of. Moreover, we might as well just throw Wilayat Faqih away, because according to you it is a complete blunder, the people simply can't discern between someone like the Shah, and someone like Sayyid Khomeini, they're just too ignorant. 

If the people can know who is worthy of doing Taqlid of, they have no issue whatsoever in knowing who is deserving of Bay'ah.

9 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Rather, it is the Imam who illuminates the people with his complete knowledge.

The purpose of an Imam is to:

A - Guide in matters of Halal and Haram

B - Establish the Hudud 

C - Lead the Muslims

D - Gather the alms-tax 

None of which the Twelfth Imam has done, he has not administered a single punishment in Hudud, he has not guided someone in Halal, and Haram (not some psuedo-irfani guidance), he has not lead the Muslims in prayer, let alone in battle, and he has gathered nothing of taxes.

Going back to my point in Usul, 

we can at least agree that Muslims are able to conceive of the fact that they are obligated to pay Zakat, and they are also obligated to enjoin good and forbid evil. How can they possibly discern what is good, and what is evil?! How can they know who to pay the Zakat to?! How do we know whether their Adhan is right, you have people for, and against the third testimony, you have emulated scholars who are between the third testimony in Adhan being recommended, or impermissible! How can we possibly expect someone to discern which scholar to do Taqlid of, do they follow Sheikh Sanad, Sayyid Fadhlullah, or do they take the Middle ground and follow Sayyid Sistani? And we don't even want to go to Sayyid Khamenei, the people are just to incompetent, as a matter a fact they are so incompetent, and according to your reasoning are going to step on landmines left and right, we might as well just throw Islam away and wait for the Mahdi to come and sort things out, that should solve things - according to your reasoning.  

[dragonxx]

58 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

After all, the Sayyid is only to be emulated if he is consistent with Quran and Sunnah.

So, I ask, how can the people possibly determine this? How can they judge whether Sayyid Sistani is learned in these matters, especially if there are other scholars who are being emulated as well, and some with other views than Sayyid Sistani! Surely, you can't expect the people to know who to do Taqlid of. Moreover, we might as well just throw Wilayat Faqih away, because according to you it is a complete blunder, the people simply can't discern between someone like the Shah, and someone like Sayyid Khomeini, they're just too ignorant. 

This is a separate discussion because Sayed Sistani isn't the Imam. We are talking about the Imam of the people.

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

The purpose of an Imam is to:

A - Guide in matters of Halal and Haram

B - Establish the Hudud 

C - Lead the Muslims

D - Gather the alms-tax 

Indeed, along with additional matters. All of which require complete/perfect knowledge of Quran/Ahlulbayt.

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

None of which the Twelfth Imam has done, he has not administered a single punishment in Hudud, he has not guided someone in Halal, and Haram (not some psuedo-irfani guidance), he has not lead the Muslims in prayer, let alone in battle, and he has gathered nothing of taxes.

When the Sun is hidden behind the clouds, it is the deficiency of the perceiver that he disbelieves in the Sun's existence.

Nonetheless, even conceding to your point, people choosing an Imam to follow is inconsistent with Quran in and of itself as I keep explaining repeatedly, thus you would also be wrong in your ways.

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Going back to my point in Usul, 

we can at least agree that Muslims are able to conceive of the fact that they are obligated to pay Zakat, and they are also obligated to enjoin good and forbid evil. How can they possibly discern what is good, and what is evil?! How can they know who to pay the Zakat to?! How do we know whether their Adhan is right, you have people for, and against the third testimony, you have emulated scholars who are between the third testimony in Adhan being recommended, or impermissible! How can we possibly expect someone to discern which scholar to do Taqlid of, do they follow Sheikh Sanad, Sayyid Fadhlullah, or do they take the Middle ground and follow Sayyid Sistani? And we don't even want to go to Sayyid Khamenei, the people are just to incompetent, as a matter a fact they are so incompetent, and according to your reasoning are going to step on landmines left and right, we might as well just throw Islam away and wait for the Mahdi to come and sort things out, that should solve things - according to your reasoning.  

Well I guess me, you, and every convert who lived in Europe 1400 years ago are in the same boat, aren't we! Except our school is not nihilistic about it. The idea is to struggle throughout one's life and purify oneself progressively with what we have available to us. It's not supposed to be easy. Deep down you are frustrated nobody is feeding you the easy answers and so you turn to an illusion to fulfill yourself.

Like I said, had you been living a muslim somewhere overseas like in the New World 1400 years ago, you'd probably have said the Prophet (pbuhf) or Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) are unavailable to tell you directly whether the third testimony is correct or incorrect, and so you'd have turned your back as a result, the same way you are now.

[Zaydism]

38 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

This is a separate discussion because Sayed Sistani isn't the Imam. We are talking about the Imam of the people.

Separate discussion, how? This is equivalent to the issues you are raising, our Imam is essentially a Marja' like Sayyid Sistani, but he leads the Muslims in a position of statesmanship, I am not using your concept of Imamah, because it is non-existent. 

42 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

additional matters.

Can you show me which Friday prayer the Mahdi has led, or which particular Hudud he administered, before you list those additional matters.

43 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

When the Sun is hidden behind the clouds, it is the deficiency of the perceiver that he disbelieves in the Sun's existence.

Essentially the discussion is revolving around two premises and a conclusion

(P1) - The Mahdi Muhammad b. al-Hassan al-'Askari exists

(P2) - The Mahdi is an Imam 

(C) - There is an Imam by the name of Muhammad b. al-Hassan al-'Askari that exists

We need to address these two premises, as they are necessary preconditions to your belief, what you are doing is you are taking P1, and P2 as a given, and you are trying to argue through a sort of immaculate Imamah which I mentioned to be better than an Imamah led by fallible righteous individuals. 

I know you don't want to touch on P1, because it is a fact that you cannot prove he exists, and as for P2 I am showing how he has not fulfilled the prerequisites of an Imam which are at the very least leading the Friday prayer, teaching in matters of Halal, and Haram, etc. 

Now, seeing that the false equivocation you've made with a practical Imamah, and a fantasy type of Imamah doesn't stand to your own scrutiny, as it leads to absurdity.

I kindly ask you to choose which of the two necessary premises you would like to focus on, so we can dedicate time to it, otherwise we are putting the cart ahead of the horse, and I am trying to be as charitable as I can, in the end this is a serious matter, and our goal isn't to score cheap points. 

1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

Well I guess me, you, and every convert who lived in Europe 1400 years ago are in the same boat, aren't we! Except our school is not nihilistic about it. The idea is to struggle throughout one's life and purify oneself progressively with what we have available to us. It's not supposed to be easy. Deep down you are frustrated nobody is feeding you the easy answers and so you turn to an illusion to fulfill yourself.

Like I said, had you been living a muslim somewhere overseas like in the New World 1400 years ago, you'd probably have said the Prophet (pbuhf) or Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) are unavailable to tell you directly whether the third testimony is correct or incorrect, and so you'd have turned your back as a result, the same way you are now.

Incorrect analogy, because we have access to their teachings. 

[dragonxx]

17 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Incorrect analogy, because we have access to their teachings. 

Full access and understanding of the teachings? If that's true, then what do you need a leader for as I said above? So yeah, definitely a correct analogy, you're just completely missing the point.

18 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Can you show me which Friday prayer the Mahdi has led, or which particular Hudud he administered, before you list those additional matters.

I cannot show you. See how easy it is to give a direct answer?

27 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

I know you don't want to touch on P1, because it is a fact that you cannot prove he exists, and as for P2 I am showing how he has not fulfilled the prerequisites of an Imam which are at the very least leading the Friday prayer, teaching in matters of Halal, and Haram, etc. 

What proof is it that you're looking for in regards to P1? Where do you derive these prerequisites from, for instance, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) by your criteria seems to have been unsuccessful in teaching matters of Halal/Haram for many years. Is that his fault? Or is that because people weren't interested to be taught? "Ask me before you lose me"

Tell me, does the Prophet lead Friday prayer for people on a different continent? Would he have been able to teach you matters of halal/haram directly while you're on a different continent? I really don't understand your point. Perhaps I am not understanding something very basic, if so, enlighten me.

21 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

I kindly ask you to choose which of the two necessary premises you would like to focus on, so we can dedicate time to it, otherwise we are putting the cart ahead of the horse, and I am trying to be as charitable as I can, in the end this is a serious matter, and our goal isn't to score cheap points. 

Indeed a serious matter, and I have laid out logical arguments which you have circumvented, instead choosing to focus on technical arguments that posters above have already answered. Therefore it appears we have reached an impasse as neither my approach nor the approach of others have lead to fruition dear brother! 

[Zaydism]

34 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

what do you need a leader for as I said above?

To implement the Hudud

36 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

) by your criteria seems to have been unsuccessful in teaching matters of Halal/Haram for many years. Is that his fault? Or is that because people weren't interested to be taught? "Ask me before you lose me"

Imam Ali taught in matters of Halal, and Haram, as Shia we always mention the quote of Umar where he says had it not been for Abu al-Hassan I would have perished.

38 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Tell me, does the Prophet lead Friday prayer for people on a different continent? Would he have been able to teach you matters of halal/haram directly while you're on a different continent? I really don't understand your point. Perhaps I am not understanding something very basic, if so, enlighten me.

When the Prophet was alive he did, as for your misconception, you are thinking we need an Imam in every place/time, however, as you mentioned this isn't always feasible. The point that is being made is that leading the prayer, teaching matters of Halal, and Haram, etc. Are necessary for Imamah. You can't be an Imam without acting as one.

12 hours ago, dragonxx said:

form of occultation just like how Jesus ((عليه السلام)) and Khidr ((عليه السلام)) were in occultation.

When you mention cases of occultation, our point is you are making it a necessary component of belief, so you are saying that we have to believe in an occult Imam, whereas Allah never compelled His servants to believe in Prophets, or follow leaders that are occult from them. This is why such an analogy does not work either, because when the people of the cave, Nabi 'isa, al-Khidr, etc were, or are occult Allah does no oblige us to follow them - that is the point. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The purpose of an Imam is to:

A - Guide in matters of Halal and Haram

B - Establish the Hudud 

C - Lead the Muslims

D - Gather the alms-tax 

Salam non of these are main purposes of an Imam because since time of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) some deputies have appointed by Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in every region to do these duties under supervision of him which some of guidlines of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) likewise his valuble letter to Malik Ashtar (رضي الله عنه) is best proof which these 4 purposes have been duties of people likewise Malik Ashtar(رضي الله عنه) under supervision of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali(عليه السلام) which currently is duty of Marjas likewise grand Ayatollah Sistani & Imam Khamenei as deputies of Imam Mahdi(aj) during his occultation which after reappearance Imam Mahdi(aj) will instal just leaders likewise Malik Ashtar (رضي الله عنه) for every nation & country but on contrast to your misunderstanding main duty of any infallible Imam (عليه السلام) has been education of their followers for promotion in spirituality & knowledge for promotion of all humanity to maximum point of sprituality & knowledge for praying Allah & establishing justice so therefore salvation of people & entering to Paradise InshaAllah which after establishing justice by Imam Mahdi(aj) & appointing best rulers by him for every nation & country then people will reach highest point of sprituality & knowledge so therefore all of people will worship Allah with high level of knowledge & understanding so therefore they will reach to salvation on earth & hereafter then they will enter to Paradise inshaAllah.

[Zaydism]

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 duty of Marjas likewise grand Ayatollah Sistani & Imam Khamenei as deputies of Imam Mahdi(aj) during his occultation

Exactly, Marj'ayah has replaced Imamah. You have no Imamah, it's just a fantasy that exists in your minds, and on paper, and it's been embellished with irfani rhetoric. 

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

main duty of any infallible Imam (عليه السلام) has been education of their followers for promotion in spirituality & knowledge for promotion of all humanity to maximum point of sprituality & knowledge for praying Allah & establishing justice so therefore salvation of people & entering to Paradise InshaAllah which after establishing justice by Imam Mahdi(aj)

Who has the Mahdi educated?

He didn't even educate his third 'representative' who sent a letter to Qomi scholars so they can check his 'Aqeedah for him. God forbid he signs a treatise in the name of the Mahdi without checking it first, I wonder why...