Zaydi - Twelver (Debate 4)

[Zaydism]

@Muslim2010

[Mohamad Abdel-Hamid]

Looking forward for debate number 20 

[Zaydism]

They keep derailing the threads  

[Muslim2010]

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

They keep derailing the threads  

I have responses in the similar thread from where you are running away (as you are unable to justify your claims with evidences) and trying to push & engage others in New threads (instead of completing earlier threads) thus exhibiting  immature behavior at SC, the links are given below:

wasalam

Edited August 29, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Looking forward for debate number 20 

Bother 20 is only a small number it may go about 200 or more like the count of saqeefians, ummayd and abbasid and other caliphs including imams of other sects whose total count is more than this, shia 12vers follow only 12.

 wasalam

Edited August 29, 2021 by Muslim2010

[layman]

Salam,

Just for the sake of writing while waiting for the others to say something in the debate.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created His Holy Names, Holy Quran, Holy Prophets and Holy Imams to be followed by humans.  Humans are NOT able to create man made names, books,  prophets and  imams that are holy, as if the same level of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) when He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creates something that is holy. 

By Holy, I mean PURE, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make it PURE because they are representing HIM or approved means of reaching HIM.

The Sunnis made Abu Bakr, Umar ...all companions as holy.  These are man made holiness.

Are all past Zaidi's Imams were made Holy by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or man made holiness? Were they all made to be Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Representatives on this earth and as means of reaching Him?

Wallahualam 

Edited August 29, 2021 by layman

[Cool]

On 8/29/2021 at 3:36 AM, Zaidism said:

They keep derailing the threads  

You have tagged brother @Muslim2010 here but have used "they", I guess I am the uninvited guest here . 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 8/29/2021 at 1:15 AM, Zaidism said:

@Muslim2010

The whole concept of 12ver shia Imamah revolves around the fact that Caliph [ imam / Prophet ] is to be choosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

You should refute this from Qur'an first [ since its basis for an aqeedah ] then Hadeeth.

We say that from Adam (عليه السلام), to Hussein (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) choosed pure Masoom people and gave them authority. How come after Hussein (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stopped it and fallible people became imams?

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

Qur'an 92:12

It is certainly upon Us ˹alone˺ to show ˹the way to˺ guidance

Misguided people are going to come after Hussein (عليه السلام) till Qayamah. So its completely logical that we still need a guide that guides from the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that is a sign/proof of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) between us.

And in Qur'an 13:7:

And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said _for every people, there is a guide_

In our Tafseer [ zaidi-twelver ], yes we agree that this verse refers to Ali (عليه السلام) but that's only a khaas reference to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Verse says for every people there is a guide and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) showed people of his time that I am warner and guide is Ali (عليه السلام).

Similarly after Ali (عليه السلام), guide was Hassan Bin Ali (عليه السلام) because verse doesn't refer to just one community existing at some moment in time. It refers to every community.

If Ali (عليه السلام) was a guide for community existing during his time, similarly we must have a guide for our time.

After Hassan (عليه السلام), guide was Hussein (عليه السلام) and it doesn't make sense that suddenly we got deprived of infallible guides. Thats against the Qur'an 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

[Muslim2010]

4 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

The whole concept of 12ver shia Imamah revolves around the fact that Caliph [ imam / Prophet ] is to be choosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

You should refute this from Qur'an first [ since its basis for an aqeedah ] then Hadeeth.

"Shah G mamla kuch aur hy" ye nahi.

You may like to see my post and links given in it:

wasalam

[Zaydism]

On 8/30/2021 at 2:32 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

similarly we must have a guide for our time.

 

Salam brother, thank you for choosing to engage in the discussion. 

The point you make is that there needs to be a guide at all times, I partially agree with that statement as we should have a member from the Ahlulbayt leading the community in matters of the Shari'ah. However, this is not an absolute necessity to the point that we would all be misguided if it wasn't the case, and the intellect is forced to concur to this reality. You mention the need to have a guide, I touched on that topic here:

I am more than happy to continue the discussion with you in terms of the absolute necessity of guidance in all times and how this is actually antithetical to your current reality as the twelfth imam does not administer guidance, as per what 'Asif Muhsini states:

 المجهتدين القادِرين على استنباط الأحكَام الظّاهرية مِن أدلتها حتى لا تُنقض الرّوايات بعصر الغيبة التي امتدّت أكثر ألف سَنة، وربّما تمتد الى آلاف أو مَلايين السّنين. فَإن المُؤمنين لَم تنفعُوا و لا يَنتفعون من إمَامِهم الغائب- عجل الله تعالى فرجه- في الأصُول و الفروع، ومَا يُقَال بخِلاف ذَلك فَهُو تَخيّلٌ وَ توهُّمٌ وَ لَعبٌ بالعُقُول)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:1/407-408] .

The Ummah does not benefit from the twelfth Imam, neither in matters of Usool al-deen, nor Furu’ al-deen. He mentions that anyone who holds an opposing opinion is conflicted in understanding and is toying with their minds. 

‎- وقال آصف محسنيّ في موضعٍ آخر : ((ولا يُمكن القَول بانتفاعنا منهُ (ع) في زمَن الغيبة في الأمُور الدينيّة إلّا ممَّن سَلب الله عَقله)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:2/223] .

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

Therefore, the twelver exegesis of 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

We sent before you none (as apostles) but men, to whom We sent revelations. In case you are unaware, enquire of those who are keepers of the Oracles of God. {16:43} 

has been disproven and has no basis, for this cannot be implemented in regards to the twelfth Imam. 

Contradicting what Al-Kulayni shares in Al-Kafi 1/178, and what you are upon:

 الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٧٨ (shiaonlinelibrary.com)

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Zaidism

[Zaydism]

.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Zaidism

[Zaydism]

On 8/29/2021 at 10:28 AM, layman said:

Are all past Zaidi's Imams were made Holy by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or man made holiness? Were they all made to be Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Representatives on this earth and as means of reaching Him?

The 'Itrah (progeny) was purified as per 5:55, and when looking at the authentic narration of Al-Tusi we see that it clearly refers to the sons of Fatema from Imam Hassan and Hussein, not merely from Imam Hussein.

Sheikh Al-Tūsī narrates, with his chain, from Abī Baseer, narrated from Abī ‘Abdullah Ja’far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام, from his forefathers, from ‘Ali عليه السلام, he said:
The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him and his progeny) said: O’ ‘Ali when I was taken to the heavens the angels came to me from every heaven with glad tidings… He looked at the third and chose Fatema over the women of the worlds, he then looked at the fourth and chose Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein, and the Imams from their sons over the men of the worlds.

Source: Āmālī Al-Tūsi, 642

Moreover, we see that in 35:32 Allah mentioning the three stages of those purified chosen ones, and how only those who are foremost in good deeds can be guides for the Islamic Ummah, this is consistent with 33:62 where Allah says that His Sunnah does not change with his messengers, and guides. Seeing that before the Progeny of the Prophet this favor was similarly given to the Progeny of Ibrahim, and to Banu Israeel where we find that they also had the good, the bad, and those who take the middle course. Likewise, Allah took this favor from Banu Israeel and gave it to the progeny of the Prophet. 

Then We have given the Book for inheritance to such of Our Servants as We have chosen: but there are among them some who wrong their own souls; some who follow a middle course; and some who are, by Allah's leave, foremost in good deeds; that is the highest Grace {35:32}

Now we look at a twelver and sunni exegesis from Imam Baqir, and Imam Sajjad on the authority of the reliable Abu Hamza ((رضي الله عنه)):

دثنا أبو عبد الله الحسين بن يحيى البجلي، قال: حدثنا أبي، قال: حدثنا أبو عوانة موسى بن يوسف الكوفي، قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن يحيى، عن يعقوب بن يحيى عن أبي حفص، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، قال:

كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر عليه السلام إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له: يا ابن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما: اسألا عما جئتما.

قالا: أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل: " ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا [من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير] " إلى آخر الآيتين.

قال: نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت: بأبي أنت وأمي فمن الظالم لنفسه؟

قال: من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

فقلت: من المقتصد منكم؟

قال: العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين.

فقلت: فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال: من دعا والله إلى سبيل ربه، و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر، ولم يكن للمضلين عضدا، ولا للخائنين خصيما، ولم يرض بحكم الفاسقين إلا من خاف على نفسه ودينه ولم يجد أعوانا.

Quranic Verse to support: و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر

لَّا يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُولِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ ۚ فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً ۚ وَكُلًّا وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَفَضَّلَ اللَّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

Furthermore, two more chains with Abu Hamza, one from Al-Sudooq and one from the Hanafi Al-Hakm Al'Hiskani:

يروي الحاكم الحسكاني الحنفي ، بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن علي بن الحسين ، قال : إني لجالس عنده إذ جاءه رجلان من أهل العراق فقالا : يا ابن رسول الله جئناك [ كي ] تخبرنا عن آيات من القرآن . فقال : و ما هي ؟ قالا: قول الله تعالى : ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا فقال : يا أهل العراق و أيش يقولون ؟ قالا : يقولون : إنها نزلت في أمة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم‏) فقال : علي بن الحسين : أمة محمد كلهم إذا في الجنة ! ! قال : …، فقلت : و المقتصد؟ قال : العابد لله في بيته حتى يأتيه اليقين ، فقلت : السابق بالخيرات ؟ قال : مَنْ شَهَرَ سَيفَه ودَعَا إلى سَبيلِ رَبّه)) [ شواهد التنزيل:2/157]

يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين .

قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]

 

[dragonxx]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

Salam brother. 

I just had a thought I wanted to share, we all know the verse:

“Do not say regarding those who are slain in the path of God that they are dead; rather they are alive but you are not aware.” Quran 3:169

Surely these individuals have a role in the hereafter despite the fact that we don't perceive it.

Although the Imam of our time is in occultation, does that necessarily prove he is inaccessible? Yes, via the conventional means we think of such as seeing, speaking directly to another human etc., he may be inaccessible in that sense. However, what about unconventional means such as inspiration by the permission of Allah? Or via dreams, etc.? Or exerting dimensional effects such that a sincere person who embarks on a rightful path is swayed towards truth? 

Why should we exclude these possibilities when the Quran states such things as a slain person (who dies in the way of Allah) is not dead, we simply don't perceive that they are alive through our conventional means.

Perhaps some of my brothers can cut down the banter and comment on this as well, would be appreciated.

[Zaydism]

Wā‘alaykum as-salam brother, thank you for joining the discussion.

The martyrs are surely alive with their Lord - Exalted is He - however, that does not mean living in the realm of the afterlife entails participation in this worldly life. Moreover, I don’t discount the idea that the Mahdi can guide we can always entertain such matters theoretically. However, when one deliberates over this it goes back to the fact that this theoretical presupposition (occult guidance) has no existence whatsoever in the real world.

One will rightfully ask why then do the traditions maintain such a doctrine of guidance, which brings us to a critical point. The early Imamiyah pushed the idea of an infallible imam to guide up until the death of Al-Hassan Al-‘Askari عليه السلام they saw that him dying without a son destroys the beliefs that they were pushing, so what they did was create the belief of an occult imam to fill the gap of Imamate.

This received great support from the Abbasids, as history entails the Imamiyah lived a comfortable life during that time and the benefit the abbasids gained was an opportunity to push an Imamless creed against those troublesome Zaydis.

As Sayyid Kamal mentions the early twelvers were gathering khums thinking the Imam will come and take it soon, as time progressed he ceased to be understood as an awaited reality and turned into a mystical one. As a twelver I always presupposed this belief, but when I came across the Zaydis and saw the mind boggling claim that was being made supported by four personalities who came from families that entertained high statuses and relations with the Abbasids the pieces came together.

Think about it no one has seen/communicated with the Imam except for those four,  the Imam doesn’t guide, and any banner that rises against a tyrant before the Mahdi is a banner of misguidance and deviance.

This also explains why the first time the Hadith of twelve caliphs was used to defend the Imami position was AFTER the occultation and it had no trace whatsoever in any Imammi book before the occultation. Therefore, it highlights that stopping at the twelfth Imam was an unexpected occurrence. You will notice that something similar happened with the death of Isma'il b. Ja'far Al-Sadiq, because they were making imamate in the eldest son, so when he unexpectedly died this is where the doctrine of Bada' came in where twelvers say Allah changed His mind, and don't take my word for it go read the definition of Al-Tusi when it comes to Bada' not later interpolations that seek to sugarcoat that. Thereafter, the Imamate went to Al-Kadhim when Isma'il unexpectedly died. 

Looking through history you see that the belief in occultation wasn't a new one, it was a continuous theme in Islamic history, and even pre-islamic history just look through the dozens of occultations that Shi'as alone believed in. Therefore, after the death of Al-Hassan Al-'askari they didn't need to create this new theology of Bada', instead they plugged in occultation.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Zaidism

[layman]

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The 'Itrah (progeny) was purified as per 5:55, and when looking at the authentic narration of Al-Tusi we see that it clearly refers to the sons of Fatema from Imam Hassan and Hussein, not merely from Imam Hussein.

Sheikh Al-Tūsī narrates, with his chain, from Abī Baseer, narrated from Abī ‘Abdullah Ja’far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام, from his forefathers, from ‘Ali عليه السلام, he said:
The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him and his progeny) said: O’ ‘Ali when I was taken to the heavens the angels came to me from every heaven with glad tidings… He looked at the third and chose Fatema over the women of the worlds, he then looked at the fourth and chose Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein, and the Imams from their sons over the men of the worlds.

Source: Āmālī Al-Tūsi, 642

Moreover, we see that in 35:32 Allah mentioning the three stages of those purified chosen ones, and how only those who are foremost in good deeds can be guides for the Islamic Ummah, this is consistent with 33:62 where Allah says that His Sunnah does not change with his messengers, and guides. Seeing that before the Progeny of the Prophet this favor was similarly given to the Progeny of Ibrahim, and to Banu Israeel where we find that they also had the good, the bad, and those who take the middle course. Likewise, Allah took this favor from Banu Israeel and gave it to the progeny of the Prophet. 

Then We have given the Book for inheritance to such of Our Servants as We have chosen: but there are among them some who wrong their own souls; some who follow a middle course; and some who are, by Allah's leave, foremost in good deeds; that is the highest Grace {35:32}

Now we look at a twelver and sunni exegesis from Imam Baqir, and Imam Sajjad on the authority of the reliable Abu Hamza ((رضي الله عنه)):

دثنا أبو عبد الله الحسين بن يحيى البجلي، قال: حدثنا أبي، قال: حدثنا أبو عوانة موسى بن يوسف الكوفي، قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن يحيى، عن يعقوب بن يحيى عن أبي حفص، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي، قال:

كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر عليه السلام إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له: يا ابن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما: اسألا عما جئتما.

قالا: أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل: " ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا [من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير] " إلى آخر الآيتين.

قال: نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت: بأبي أنت وأمي فمن الظالم لنفسه؟

قال: من استوت حسناته وسيئاته منا أهل البيت فهو ظالم لنفسه.

فقلت: من المقتصد منكم؟

قال: العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين.

فقلت: فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال: من دعا والله إلى سبيل ربه، و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر، ولم يكن للمضلين عضدا، ولا للخائنين خصيما، ولم يرض بحكم الفاسقين إلا من خاف على نفسه ودينه ولم يجد أعوانا.

Quranic Verse to support: و أمر بالمعروف، ونهى عن المنكر

لَّا يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُولِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ ۚ فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً ۚ وَكُلًّا وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَفَضَّلَ اللَّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

Furthermore, two more chains with Abu Hamza, one from Al-Sudooq and one from the Hanafi Al-Hakm Al'Hiskani:

يروي الحاكم الحسكاني الحنفي ، بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي عن علي بن الحسين ، قال : إني لجالس عنده إذ جاءه رجلان من أهل العراق فقالا : يا ابن رسول الله جئناك [ كي ] تخبرنا عن آيات من القرآن . فقال : و ما هي ؟ قالا: قول الله تعالى : ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا فقال : يا أهل العراق و أيش يقولون ؟ قالا : يقولون : إنها نزلت في أمة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم‏) فقال : علي بن الحسين : أمة محمد كلهم إذا في الجنة ! ! قال : …، فقلت : و المقتصد؟ قال : العابد لله في بيته حتى يأتيه اليقين ، فقلت : السابق بالخيرات ؟ قال : مَنْ شَهَرَ سَيفَه ودَعَا إلى سَبيلِ رَبّه)) [ شواهد التنزيل:2/157]

يروي الشيخ الصدوق بإسناده ، عن أبي حمزة الثمالي قال : كنت جالسا في المسجد الحرام مع أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) إذ أتاه رجلان من أهل البصرة فقالا له : يا بن رسول الله إنا نريد أن نسألك عن مسألة فقال لهما : اسألا عما جئتما . قالا : أخبرنا عن قول الله عز وجل : (ثم أورثنا الكتاب الذين اصطفينا من عبادنا فمنهم ظالم لنفسه ومنهم مقتصد ومنهم سابق بالخيرات بإذن الله ذلك هو الفضل الكبير )) إلى آخر الآيتين .

قال : نزلت فينا أهل البيت.

قال أبو حمزة فقلت : بأبي أنت وأمي فمن … ، المقتصد منكم ؟ قال : العابد لله ربه في الحالين حتى يأتيه اليقين . فقلت : فمن السابق منكم بالخيرات؟

قال : مَن دَعا والله إلى سَبيل ربه وأمرَ بالمعروف ، ونَهى عن المنكر ، ولم يَكُن للمُضلِّين عَضُداً . ولا للخَائنين خَصيما ، ولم يَرض بحُكم الفَاسقين إلاّ منْ خَافَ على نَفسِه ودِينه ولم يجد أعْوَاناً)) [ معاني الأخبار:105]

 

Servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can be at many levels eeman.  Even the Prophets have many levels.  We only interested in the highest level that approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not so called man made interpretation for that level.  Please don't to mellow down the status of Imam to fit in man made criteria of Leadership of Ummah.

Imams for all humans must be pure (holy) and chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and endorsed by Qur'an and Our Messengers.

Who are those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stated as Imam? Those are Leaders guided by Allah' (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) command and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly inspired into them.  Failing to meet the criteria,  any servant of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) cannot be Leader for humanity but NOT and Imam to humanity.  Salman (رضي الله عنه) is a good servant  of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but not an Imam. 

Chapter (21) sūrat l-anbiyāa (The Prophets)

http://www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/21_73.png

Sahih International: And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakah; and they were worshippers of Us.

Pickthall: And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone).

Yusuf Ali: And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

Shakir: And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

Muhammad Sarwar: We appo

[Zaydism]

2 minutes ago, layman said:

Please don't to mellow down the status of Imam to fit in man made criteria of Leadership of Ummah.

Please show me where the 9 Particular Imams were designated

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

 المجهتدين القادِرين على استنباط الأحكَام الظّاهرية مِن أدلتها حتى لا تُنقض الرّوايات بعصر الغيبة التي امتدّت أكثر ألف سَنة، وربّما تمتد الى آلاف أو مَلايين السّنين. فَإن المُؤمنين لَم تنفعُوا و لا يَنتفعون من إمَامِهم الغائب- عجل الله تعالى فرجه- في الأصُول و الفروع، ومَا يُقَال بخِلاف ذَلك فَهُو تَخيّلٌ وَ توهُّمٌ وَ لَعبٌ بالعُقُول)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:1/407-408] .

The Ummah does not benefit from the twelfth Imam, neither in matters of Usool al-deen, nor Furu’ al-deen. He mentions that anyone who holds an opposing opinion is conflicted in understanding and is toying with their minds. 

‎- وقال آصف محسنيّ في موضعٍ آخر : ((ولا يُمكن القَول بانتفاعنا منهُ (ع) في زمَن الغيبة في الأمُور الدينيّة إلّا ممَّن سَلب الله عَقله)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:2/223] .

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

Therefore, the twelver exegesis of 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

We sent before you none (as apostles) but men, to whom We sent revelations. In case you are unaware, enquire of those who are keepers of the Oracles of God. {16:43} 

has been disproven and has no basis, for this cannot be implemented in regards to the twelfth Imam. 

Contradicting what Al-Kulayni shares in Al-Kafi 1/178, and what you are upon:

 الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ١ - الصفحة ١٧٨ (shiaonlinelibrary.com)

 إن الأرض لا تخلو إلا وفيها إمام، كيما إن زاد المؤمنون شيئا ردهم، وإن نقصوا شيئا أتمه لهم.

The world is never left without an Imam, for whenever the believers exceed in a matter he reprimands them, and when they decrease in an matter he fulfils it for them i.e guides them to fulfilling any gap in religion.

Sslam you purposely have not translated first line just to prove your wrong idea about not needing or benefitting from 12th Imam but this first line crystaly clear refutes your nonsense

لمجهتدين القادِرين على استنباط الأحكَام الظّاهرية مِن أدلتها حتى لا تُنقض الرّوايات بعصر الغيبة التي امتدّت أكثر ألف سَنة، وربّما تمتد الى آلاف أو مَلايين السّنين.

because it has been stated that during occultation Mujtahid can rule based on apparent/obvious rules from his evidences  until it doesn't contradicts with narration in era of occultation which has lasted more than100 year, or maybe lasts to hundreds or thousend years. 

Therefore It indicates that during time of occultation we must reffer back to Mujtahids as representatives of Imam Mahdi(aj) until his reappearance however rest of eleven infallible before him especially sice time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) have had students as Mujtahids which people have been reffering to them instead of infallible Imam which one of most famous Mujtahids has been Sheikh Mufid (رضي الله عنه) which has been verified by Imam Mahdi (aj) as his representative between people which now Marjas are representative of 12th Imam between people which also Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) has stated that people will benefit from 12th Imam during his occultation likewise benefitting from the sun behind clouds which the prt of above narration which you purposely have not translated it has been refuted your nonsense about denying of 12th Imam.

[Zaydism]

Yes, I’ll grant you that narrative. Mujtahids are not infallible guides, they differed for decades over which framework is the right one to even use; is it the Akhbari, or Usooli framework. They even went on to make takfir on one another, you even had these differences between the Akhbaris and Usoolis themselves in their own groups. There is no discussion or argument to be had, it’s as clear as daylight. There is no guidance. 

[Zaydism]

4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Sslam

Wā ‘alaykum al-salam 

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

There is no guidance. 

I totaly disagree because your point is against word of Allah in holy Quran which he doesn't leave humans without guide which based on your point even your Zaidi Imams have been misguided you into darkness instead of guiding you to truth & light because they have been fallible people & likewise Usoolis & Akhbaris they have had many differences between themselves which at least we have supervision of 12th Imam over Mujtahids whether Usooli or Akhbari  but on the on the other hand you don't benefit from supervision of any infallible guide .

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

as the twelfth imam does not administer guidance, 

This is a false claim and conjecture and this is against the verses of quran where the guidance comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through the quran, prophets, chosen leaders and imams and it has not been ceased in the history of religion so far.

This claim has already been refuted by the following posts during the earlier discussion.

wasalam

Edited September 4, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

This also explains why the first time the Hadith of twelve caliphs was used to defend the Imami position was AFTER the occultation and it had no trace whatsoever in any Imammi book before the occultation.

The Zaidi sect, the Jarudiyyah, narrate many traditions attributed to the Prophet and al-Baqir concerning the political role of the Twelfth Imam. One of their distinguished scholars in Kufa was Abu Said `Abbad b. Ya'qub al-Rawajini al-`Asfari (d. 250/864).(1) He wrote a book entitled Kitab Akhbar al-Mahdi.(2) Al-Dhahabireports that `Abbad was a Rafidite propagandist, and was awaiting the rise of al-Mahdi in the near future. He used to carry a sword, and once said that he kept his sword ready in order to fight for al-Mahdi.(3) It is worth mentioning that `Abbad held this view before the occultation of the Twelfth Imam in 260/874, since he died in 250/864.(4) He reports three Prophetic traditions concerning the Twelfth Imam. Below are two of them:

1)The Prophet is believed to have said, "From my descendants there will be eleven leaders [who will be] noble, receivers of tradition [and] possessed of knowledge, the last of whom will be `al-Qaim bil-Haqq' who will fill it [i.e. the world] with justice, just as it was filled with tyranny.(5)

2)The Prophet is reported to have said: "I and eleven of my descendants and you, O 'Ali, are the axis of the earth, that is, its tent pegs and its mountains. By us Allah has secured the world so that it will not sink with its people. For when the eleventh of my descendants has died the world shall sink with its people without warning.(6)

http://www.en.al-shia.org/content/twelfth-imam-zaidi-traditions

Edited September 4, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Please show me where the 9 Particular Imams were designated

There are many hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from the progeny of the prophet to confirm this fact and their nomination as imams including 12 imams, those have been presented many times in these threads during the discussions with yourself and Ali bin Hussain (Warrila).

wasalam

[Zaydism]

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The Zaidi sect, the Jarudiyyah, narrate many traditions attributed to the Prophet and al-Baqir concerning the political role of the Twelfth Imam. One of their distinguished scholars in Kufa was Abu Said `Abbad b. Ya'qub al-Rawajini al-`Asfari (d. 250/864)

As mentioned earlier there were waves upon waves of Shi’as who believed in a Mahdi, or who simply used the title of Mahdi towards any member of the Ahl al-Bayt that would rise. For example, Imam Muhammad b. ‘Abdullah was called Al-Mahdi by the people because they thought he was the promised messiah. What the article is doing is it’s reading it’s presuppositions into the word Mahdi, but even if we (for arguments sake) say that he genuinely believed in an occult Imam that will come he (a) completely went against the beliefs of the Jarudiyyah, because they don’t even believe that 9 particular Imams were designated and (b) was awaiting a Mahdi, or Qa’im from the Ahl al-Bayt that will rise, because as you may know when a member of the pure progeny rises he is considered to be the “Mahdi” of his time. 
 

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Al-Dhahabireports that `Abbad was a Rafidite propagandist, and was awaiting the rise of al-Mahdi in the near future. He used to carry a sword, and once said that he kept his sword ready in order to fight for al-Mahdi.

Again, this is pretty self-explanatory if you look at it objectively. A pro-‘Alid (called Rafidhi) waiting for the rise of one of the members of the progeny so he can engage in the revolt with them.

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The Prophet is believed to have said, "From my descendants there will be eleven leaders [who will be] noble, receivers of tradition [and] possessed of knowledge, the last of whom will be `al-Qaim bil-Haqq' who will fill it [i.e. the world] with justice, just as it was filled with tyranny.(5)

I tried tracing down this tradition and it took me to this link (see footnote 7) where it says the source is from the twelver scholars’ book Al-‘idah by Al-hilli who died in the year 726/1325, if you can even find this strange book/narration with a chain I’d love to see it but again you need to note that even then we’d have to go to the actual manuscript, because you have the book of Sulaym b. Qays mentioning the Mahdi, but no scholar would accept it due to (a) it’s unreliable sanad, and (b) the fact that it was not free from later additions. It’s shocking the extent you’re going with this, taking a dubious Hadith attributed to a Jarudi and the earliest source for it is as a twelver book written 200+ years after the Ghaybah of Nu’mani. 
 

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The Prophet is reported to have said: "I and eleven of my descendants and you, O 'Ali, are the axis of the earth, that is, its tent pegs and its mountains. By us Allah has secured the world so that it will not sink with its people. For when the eleventh of my descendants has died the world shall sink with its people without warning.(6)

This actually refutes itself if you go to footnote 6, but if you’re willing to put the trust of your entire ‘Aqeedah in a Jarudi who is mentioned in later twlever works to have narrated 1-2 Hadith, one which mentions 13 Imams and that is if this Hadith even exists because you’d need to share it, then we’d have to look at the chain and see if it is even acceptable in your rijaali standards, as well as mine. Afterwards, we’d discuss why you think solitary reports can be used to prove matters of Usool al-deen! 
 

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

This is a false claim and conjecture and this is against the verses of quran where the guidance comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through the quran, prophets, chosen leaders and imams and it has not been ceased in the history of religion so far.

Okay, so we can disregard the traditions that mention the Imams being guides, we completely agree that guidance comes from Allah through the Quran and the messengers. Why exactly are you superimposing this belief? Why do we need to believe in the twelfth imam if we have guidance? You see how it takes us back to square one which is at least proving there is a designated twelfth imam. I’m glad you finally conceded to the fact that he doesn’t guide. 

 

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

There are many hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from the progeny of the prophet to confirm this fact and their nomination as imams including 12 imams, those have been presented many times in these threads during the discussions with yourself and Ali bin Hussain (Warrila).

wasalam

Go ahead and share one of these many Hadiths, if we discussed them many times I’m sure you’ll know my response to them. I’ve gotten used to repeating some points, but that’s fine I’ll repeat what I said in those earlier threads. 

[Zaydism]

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I totaly disagree because your point is against word of Allah in holy Quran which he doesn't leave humans without guide which based on your point even your Zaidi Imams have been misguided you into darkness instead of guiding you to truth & light because they have been fallible people & likewise Usoolis & Akhbaris they have had many differences between themselves which at least we have supervision of 12th Imam over Mujtahids whether Usooli or Akhbari  but on the on the other hand you don't benefit from supervision of any infallible guide .

 

[Muslim2010]

30 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Go ahead and share one of these many Hadiths, if we discussed them many times I’m sure you’ll know my response to them. 

I am not here to spoon feed the one who is fond of just running away to opening of many threads in number just to increase the number of posts, even your all claims have already been proven to be false in earlier threads.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

Shia 12vers have well proven evidences from quran and hadith of the prophet and imams of the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Brother Zaidiya do not have a verse of quran that mentions that people can choose their imam, nor there is any hadith that Zaid bin Ali was an imam. yet they come and ask us authentic hadith from shia and sunni sources for 12 imams/ claiphs/ Ameer indulging their first three Imam Ali bin Abi talib (عليه السلام), Imam hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Husain (عليه السلام) and 9 descendants from Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

What guidance zaidiya do follow in the absence of the above verse of quran for man made caliphate / immamat and hadith mentioning names of zaidiya imam particularly Zadi bin Ali  after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?  

wasalam

, 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Zaydism]

Sure, if you’d like to discuss Zaydi Imamate I would be more than happy to do so. What you’re doing is just choosing to not entertain any discussion when you see that your desperate attempts of an argument aren’t sticking. Before we even discuss Zaydi Imamate, you’d have to understand it first and based on your objections you clearly don’t. I could be a Non-Muslim والعياذ بالله my critiques still hold, and the evident flaws I’m pointing to aren’t going to disappear. 

[Muslim2010]

It is the same that sunni follow for first caliph  Abu bakr and Zaidiya take it for Zaid bin Ali BOTH are same against the verses of quran and authentic hadtih of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & sayings of imams from his Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام).

However they take first three imams who are same imams for Shia  12vers from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

wasalam

Edited September 4, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Zaydism]

Your understanding is incorrect, do you have any Zaydi sources to back your claims? 

[Muslim2010]

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

I am not here to spoon feed the one who is fond of just running away to opening of many threads in number just to increase the number of posts, even your all claims have already been proven to be false in earlier threads.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

Shia 12vers have well proven evidences from quran and hadith of the prophet and imams of the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Brother Zaidiya do not have a verse of quran that mentions that people can choose their imam, nor there is any hadith that Zaid bin Ali was an imam. yet they come and ask us authentic hadith from shia and sunni sources for 12 imams/ claiphs/ Ameer indulging their first three Imam Ali bin Abi talib (عليه السلام), Imam hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Husain (عليه السلام) and 9 descendants from Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

What guidance zaidiya do follow in the absence of the above verse of quran for man made caliphate / immamat and hadith mentioning names of zaidiya imam particularly Zadi bin Ali  after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?  

wasalam

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Zaydism]

Makes an erroneous claim

Asked for evidence to back said claim

Responds with:

14 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

[Muslim2010]

17 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Makes an erroneous claim

What guidance zaidiya do follow in the absence of the above verse of quran for man made caliphate / immamat and hadith mentioning names of zaidiya imam particularly Zaid bin Ali  after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)?  

The answer  is sufficient to prove 12vers view,  yes, you may  not  accept it unless permission comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to  open someones heart and:

 ۖ وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَىٰ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الْهُدَىٰ

and peace is on him who follows the guidance; (20:47)

wasalam 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Cool]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:19 AM, Zaidism said:

 

‎- وقال آصف محسنيّ في موضعٍ آخر : ((ولا يُمكن القَول بانتفاعنا منهُ (ع) في زمَن الغيبة في الأمُور الدينيّة إلّا ممَّن سَلب الله عَقله)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:2/223] .

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

Salam brother,

According to Sheikh Asif Mohseni, the benefits are of two types:

1. النفع التشريعي

2. النفع التكويني

 What you are sharing, are his views on "tashri'i benefits". As for his views of "takwini benefits" here what he said in the same book:

و اما بحسب النفع التكويني والانتفاع الوجودي فلا سبيل الى انكاره، 

He further explains the takwini benefits as:

و ان كان هو الله سبحانه فقط و لا يشرك في خلقه و تدبيره احد من المخلوقين، لكن لا مانع من كون الانبياء والاوصياء كل في زمانه واسطة فيضان رحمته و ايصال فيضه تعالى الى الناس، و هذا امر ممكن عقلًا و ثبوتاً و تدل عليه روايات من طريقنا- كما مر- و من طريق اهل السنة، كما نقل ابن حجر الشافعي بعضها في صواعقه

http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/11772/2/222

Last time I gave you his views on Zaidiyyah, now I added something more to your information. Now even these views of Sheikh on tashri'i benefits are not hujjah, these views are open for criticism and hence cannot be used against 12ers.

You should know that my dear brother, that you cannot use the statement of 12er scholars against themselves in any way as long as they are staying on the core belief of 12erism.

I don't want to address rest of your points as I have discussed them in details on other threads. 

Furthermore, instead of copy/paste from the web page of Kazim al-Zaidi, I advise you to go through the books which he referred. Like I have share with you text from page 222 of the same book which alone is sufficient to dismiss you. 

Wassalam!!

Edited September 5, 2021 by Cool

[Zaydism]

You’re not sharing anything different, clearly the guidance that the twelver school takes is from previous Prophets/Imams as he mentioned. However, my point is the 12th imam himself does not guide, it isn’t a difficult point to grasp. In which we ask what even is the point of having a 12th imam? You do realize that Waqifis can make the same exact arguments you’re making for the occultation of Musa Al-Kadhim عليه السلام, and so could the other dozens of Shia sects with their occult Imams.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Zaidism