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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunnis & Shia BOTH wrong. Honest discussion?

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Let’s have an honest discussion. 
let’s also put all pride and stubbornness aside, because I do not talk with those two qualities nor can we understand each other if we do. 
 


quick summary, and sorry for the grammar
 

I was raised “Sunni” 

studied Islam for myself after high school and learned so much more than anyone has ever taught. 

and after my studies I have concluded, 

it is literally haram to call yourself a Sunni or a Shia or anything other than a MUSLIM. 
 

I also believe anyone who doesn’t agree is not educated enough about Islam, or psychologically has missed an important fact about this Sunni Shia debate. 
 

my thoughts is that all the extra stuff doesn’t matter. 

as a Sunni I was never taught about umar and the other guys (I honestly forget their names) nor about Ali. 
 

as a Muslim it’s clear what Allah wants, it’s your submission to him and him alone. 
 

from my experience, sunnies don’t care that much about the sahabas nor ahlul bayt, but they still call them Sunnis. So they are uneducated. 
 

shias care too much about ahlul bath and many other extra unnecessary things (in my opinion) 

 

my point and question 

 

To Sunnies, why do you call yourself a Sunni? 
 

To Shias, according to my studies of the Quran, I could never a day in my life think about Imam Ali or Ahlul byt and still make it to Heaven. So why do I need to? 
 

My question to all, 

calling yourself a Sunni or Shia helps separate Islam, when all the difference is small factors. 
do you think you will be sinned for separating Islam?


I have not called myself anything other than a Muslim for the last 6 years and spread my knowledge to both parties when I come across. Do you understand where I am coming from? 
 

- besides religion, I am very psychological when it comes to most things in life. Religion is one of those things where I have noticed most praise with pride. Which will keep them blind to a lot of things. There will ALWAYS be those people who hate the other group. 
If you are one of those people. 
allah guide you inshallah. 
if you are not, then please either convince me of your Point of view with facts, only from the Quran and Muhammad. 

I really don’t care what happened afterward, as the things that will be mentioned will change nothing about how I view ISLAM but will be small practices that are STILL THEN DEBATABLE but another time. 
 

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1 hour ago, Realone777 said:

as a Muslim it’s clear what Allah wants, it’s your submission to him and him alone. 

Salam, 

Obviously obeying the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) means obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Obeying the Ulil Amr means obeying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So who are the Ulil Amr according to you for which Quran says "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and Ulil Amr from amongst you"? 

The answer to this question would label you as sunni, shia etc. 

1 hour ago, Realone777 said:

To Shias, according to my studies of the Quran, I could never a day in my life think about Imam Ali or Ahlul byt and still make it to Heaven. So why do I need to? 

Do you think you will reach to Heaven without obeying the divine command? The command which is so important that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed them as:

وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ 

Here is that complete verse:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

5:67

What Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did after the revelation of this verse? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Realone777 said:

Quran and Muhammad

Quran translations and tafsir's through the school of Khilafat, or the school of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام))?

The sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through the school of Khilafat, or the school of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام))?

1 hour ago, Realone777 said:

I could never a day in my life think about Imam Ali or Ahlul byt and still make it to Heaven

Incidentally, what do you make of 42:23?

Edited by Sabrejet
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As salaamu alaikum brother, welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your views. 

If you don't mind I would like to comment on some points.

14 hours ago, Realone777 said:

it is literally haram to call yourself a Sunni or a Shia or anything other than a MUSLIM. 

This isn't true, because we have various narrations of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) using the term 'Shia'

Some examples recorded by Ahmed ibn Hanbal and others:

 يا علي أبشر فإنك و أصحابك و شيعتك في الجنَّة

شيعة علي هم الفائزون يوم القيامة

For more details on the use of the term Shi'a you can read further here:

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/term-shia-quran-and-hadith

14 hours ago, Realone777 said:

from my experience, sunnies don’t care that much about the sahabas nor ahlul bayt, but they still call them Sunnis. So they are uneducated. 

During your years of studying Islam, did you study the major sunni works of hadith as well as the books of their major scholars? The perception that sunnis do not care for the sahaba and/or the ahlulbayt is inaccurate. There are entire chapters in prominent works on these topics.

14 hours ago, Realone777 said:

To Shias, according to my studies of the Quran, I could never a day in my life think about Imam Ali or Ahlul byt and still make it to Heaven. So why do I need to? 

This is a vast topic but it can be summarized with two short points.

Firstly the verse of the Qur'an where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asks the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to say that he asks for no reward/compensation except love for his family.

Secondly the famous and widely recorded narration of the prophet stating that he leaves behind for us the Qur'an and his family. 

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12 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam, 

Obviously obeying the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) means obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Obeying the Ulil Amr means obeying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So who are the Ulil Amr according to you for which Quran says "Obey Allah and obey the Prophet and Ulil Amr from amongst you"? 

The answer to this question would label you as sunni, shia etc. 

Ok there is no specific way to follow the prophet? I don’t believe we are perfect like him, nor will we ever be. Yes we can strive. 

but no we don’t need to CHOOSE because both parties have correct points. 
Logically speaking, not sunnies or Shias Hate the prophet nor his family nor his friends. That is common sense to me. 
ALLAH knows what really happened. 
but the truth is I DONT CARE what happened, and the sense of care meaning it doesn’t matter… I have heard different versions of what has happened, but I am not trying to talk about it because as I said, I could never speak about it one day and still go to heaven. Allah has taught us in the Quran how to follow Muhammad so that He alone Allah Could be worshipped and pleased. Nothing else matters to me…

if you have other points you do as a Muslim taught by your Ulil amir than please mention but I don’t think any of it is important enough for me to claim either side. 

hope that explains it better. 

salam 

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8 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Quran translations and tafsir's through the school of Khilafat, or the school of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام))?

The sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) through the school of Khilafat, or the school of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام))?

Incidentally, what do you make of 42:23?

Can you show me what I need to translate ‘tafsir’ specifically that should change my whole entire judgement of how Islam is followed, who should be my leader, or me needed to call myself a Sunni or Shia ????

- please answer that^ because if you can’t then I think that explains my whole case. 
 

 

regarding 42:23

have you read the 22 Ayas before it!!! SubhanAllah  

 

It literally says hold firm to Islam and do not separate it. Claiming to be a Sunni or Shia helps misguide those who want to learn of Islam and the Quran. Teaching them rather cultures than religion. And that’s where humans went wrong in life

 

42:13/15
They did not split ˹into sects˺ out of mutual envy until knowledge came to them.1 Had it not been for a prior decree from your Lord for an appointed term,2 the matter would have certainly been settled between them ˹at once˺. And surely those who were made to inherit the Scripture3 after them are truly in alarming doubt about this ˹Quran˺.

Because of that, you ˹O Prophet˺ will invite ˹all˺. Be steadfast as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires. And say, “I believe in every Scripture Allah has revealed. And I am commanded to judge fairly among you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. We will be accountable for our deeds and you for yours. There is no ˹need for˺ contention between us. Allah will gather us together ˹for judgment˺. And to Him is the final return

As for those who dispute about Allah after He is ˹already˺ acknowledged ˹by many˺, their argument is futile in the sight of their Lord. Upon them is wrath, and they will suffer a severe punishment

 

I don’t need a professional to translate this. From my unbiased POV Allah has made it clear. But when you are raised believing certain things you tend to read the Quran differently subhanAllah and that is very dangerous!!!

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14 hours ago, Realone777 said:

I was raised “Sunni” 

studied Islam for myself after high school and learned so much more than anyone has ever taught. 

and after my studies I have concluded, 

it is literally haram to call yourself a Sunni or a Shia or anything other than a MUSLIM. 

I also believe anyone who doesn’t agree is not educated enough about Islam, 

as a Sunni I was never taught about umar and the other guys (I honestly forget their names) nor about Ali. 

Ok you self studied Islam, you believe anyone who disagrees is uneducated and you cant even remember the names of the Sunni caliphs ?

Sorry but this sounds dodgey.

What exactly have you studied ?

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8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

This isn't true, because we have various narrations of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) using the term 'Shia'

———-

During your years of studying Islam, did you study the major sunni works of hadith as well as the books of their major scholars? The perception that sunnis do not care for the sahaba and/or the ahlulbayt is inaccurate. There are entire chapters in prominent works on th

 

This is a vast topic but it can be summarized with two short points.

Firstly the verse of the Qur'an where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asks the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to say that he asks for no reward/compensation except love for his family.

Secondly the famous and widely recorded narration of the prophet stating that he leaves behind for us the Qur'an and his family. 

 

 alaykum salam. 
 

To the first point. 
the Quran has stated otherwise, so why are we mentioning hadiths and narrations. That is a persons excuse when they want to be right. 
- and TO BE 100% honest, never in my life have a I read a Hadith wholely, I have heard of them, and even parents mentioned a COUPLE times in my life, but NEVER religiously. Reading the Quran all my life I have never felt the need for it nor subhanallah has my nature dragged me to it. With or without Islam, HUMANS will fail you. And I see too many errors between hadiths or heard of things that it doesn’t drag me close to it. From both Sunnies and Shias. Yes I am very UNEDUCATED in hadiths. 
BUT before you mention another Hadith or narration I need 100% proof it is accurate, or it also needs to LOGICALLY add up with Quran, it cannot be opinionated nor debated between people. because to be honest I am sick of that. And I don’t think I need it when all the answers are in the Quran. Furthermore, the prophet lived without it so can I. 
 

 

———-

looks like that answered point number 2

———-

3. Where is this verse in the Quran? 
 

Still according to the Quran I do need to mourn the grandson of the prophet or praise Imam Ali because it does not effect how my relationship with Allah is. 
 

and the ONLY problem I have found with loving the prophets family is that it has turned into a LONG lasting culture/tradition obviously don’t wrong by many Shias. and that is why it is ultimately haram from the beginning to associate with anyone other than Allah. 
some hVe took the imams as protectors. 
my grandpa as a Sunni said when he was a child as the mosque they use to pray two rakas after sAlat, 

2 for Ali 

2 for umar 

Etc. 

He doesn’t really label himself but psychologically he forced to call himself Sunni, and he claims those extra prayers were wrong of him back in the day. 
^^^ this point does not matter as everyone has an opinion. 
but 

logically I can see why that is wrong. 
 

because ALLAH wants prayers to him alone. AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE. 
everything else is all TALK!!!

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13 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Ok you self studied Islam, you believe anyone who disagrees is uneducated and you cant even remember the names of the Sunni caliphs ?

Sorry but this sounds dodgey.

What exactly have you studied ?

To everyone I replied to that was me, sorry didn’t realize I wasn’t logged in and I was wondering what display name was LOL. 
 

so I’ll continue here anyway now. 

 

Test me? 
 

I honestly was never taught about those caliphates as a Sunni. All I remember is umar and my Brain was hurting trying to remember but I got it now abu baker and uthman and Ali according to google. 
 

anyways. 
 

I have studied the Quran

and I don’t care for the caliphate to be honest. 
 

I am not trying to sound ‘above’ anyone, because to be honest 95% if not 99 of Muslims label themselves a party, 

and I NOW technically believe anyone who does label themselves anything are just not educated enough. 
 

maybe they know 99.99% of Islam. 
 

but that .1% will make them 20x more knowledgeable. 
 

with that said, I’m still very uneducated in the Quran there is so much more to learn for the rest of my life. 
 

but as a person who has studied religions themselves and seen everything from a broad perspective, 

I am saying what I am saying. 
 

we hVe labeled ourselves all this time from a psychological Point of view. and it’s sickening. 
 

a true Muslim know he will not need to label himself anything other than a Muslim because of ‘pride’. 
 

allah speaks clearly to us in the Quran about pride, Nd about pleasing him alone. Not other people. 
 

Sorry if I sounded rude

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2 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Can you show me what I need to translate ‘tafsir’ specifically that should change my whole entire judgement of how Islam is followed, who should be my leader, or me needed to call myself a Sunni or Shia ????

- please answer that^ because if you can’t then I think that explains my whole case.

Translation and tafsir are two different things - what do you mean by translating tafsir? Please clarify.

 

2 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

regarding 42:23

have you read the 22 Ayas before it!!! SubhanAllah

Loving the Ahlul Bayt is ajar e Risalat according to this verse - faith is not complete without it. You literally said:

 

12 hours ago, Realone777 said:

I could never a day in my life think about Imam Ali or Ahlul byt and still make it to Heaven. So why do I need to?

This verse is telling something else. Care to explain?

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1 hour ago, Guest Reply. said:

To everyone I replied to that was me, sorry didn’t realize I wasn’t logged in and I was wondering what display name was LOL. 
 

so I’ll continue here anyway now. 

 

Test me? 
 

I honestly was never taught about those caliphates as a Sunni. All I remember is umar and my Brain was hurting trying to remember but I got it now abu baker and uthman and Ali according to google. 
 

anyways. 
 

I have studied the Quran

and I don’t care for the caliphate to be honest. 
 

I am not trying to sound ‘above’ anyone, because to be honest 95% if not 99 of Muslims label themselves a party, 

and I NOW technically believe anyone who does label themselves anything are just not educated enough. 
 

maybe they know 99.99% of Islam. 
 

but that .1% will make them 20x more knowledgeable. 
 

with that said, I’m still very uneducated in the Quran there is so much more to learn for the rest of my life. 
 

but as a person who has studied religions themselves and seen everything from a broad perspective, 

I am saying what I am saying. 
 

we hVe labeled ourselves all this time from a psychological Point of view. and it’s sickening. 
 

a true Muslim know he will not need to label himself anything other than a Muslim because of ‘pride’. 
 

allah speaks clearly to us in the Quran about pride, Nd about pleasing him alone. Not other people. 
 

Sorry if I sounded rude

Are you Qur'an only or do you accept hadith ?

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28 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Are you Qur'an only or do you accept hadith ?

I don’t know tbh. I have trust issues 

if a Hadith logically adds up with the Quran then yes. But NO one ls word after the prophet is guaranteed truth. The Quran is the only word of god. Everything else can be debated and misinterpreted by us normal people. 
 

the prophet is a prophet for a reason. 
 

the Nabi Eisa was a prophet, but the people who have narrated about him have turned him into god. 
TRUST NO MAN ONLY ALLAH 

 

with that said, if it is lined up with the Quran and doesn’t effect the way I worship Allah then yes. 
I may accept it. 
but ask me if I will follow it? 
Tell me why I should follow it? 
Tell me what I gain that Allah hasn’t explained to me in the Quran. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

Translation and tafsir are two different things - what do you mean by translating tafsir? Please clarify.

Loving the Ahlul Bayt is ajar e Risalat according to this verse - faith is not complete without it. You literally said:

This verse is telling something else. Care to explain?

What does the verse tell you? 

us humans have different minds and understand things differently from each other. So a tafsir like this verse we may see it differently. So what does it really mean is the question. And the truth usually means not adding other inaccurate facts to a point. 

so let’s be clear about which verse first and we can dig into it. 

Bringing in opinions into a fact is where we tend to misunderstand things.

—— 

I cannot agree that religion is incomplete without this one verse. I think 42:23 your talking about. A couple reasons why. 

because there are 1000 other verse that explains how to complete your religion. So one verse (that is interpreted only by you) isn’t sufficient enough for me to agree that it completes a whole religion. And even if you are right, then yes I still do love Ahlul bayt. But I don’t need to do 1% of what Shias believe. I can just love them. Never think about them and still go to heaven. The Imams are just normal human beings. They are soldiers of Allah who helped spread Islam more. They didn’t not want to start a whole group out of that. But none the less that’s where psychology kicks in. 
people tend to take things further than needed in life. And that’s human nature. 

my whole point is that it’s not necessary, 

hence no need to call yourself Shia. 
nor sunni because claiming a side means you are not trying to unite. Which goes against allahs wish and the prophet and I bet you my life the imams wouldn’t have wanted that either

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4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Allah has taught us in the Quran how to follow Muhammad

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

59:7) and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back

This is what Quran mentions & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands. Now whether you care or don't care about what has been given by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Ghadir, what he left after him from thaqalayn,  what he gave us as ark of Noah etc., I don't care.

4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

but no we don’t need to CHOOSE because both parties have correct points. 

This is mixing the truth & falsehood. How can both parties have correct points while one is following the command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & other don't? 

وَلاَ تَلْبِسُواْ الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُواْ الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

2:42 And do not overlay the truth with falsehood, and do not knowingly suppress the truth. 

We don't really need to choose,.I agree with you. But people have choosen the caliph at saqifah bani sa'da. Ignoring & disobeying the clear command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Ghadir e Khum.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ {119}

9:119) O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Logically speaking, not sunnies or Shias Hate the prophet nor his family nor his friends. That is common sense to me. 

This indicates your knowhow of Islamic history. And while you are talking about Muslims, let me remind you that a vast majority of hypocrites were dressed up as Muslims and they hate Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

وَإِذَا رَأَيْتَهُمْ تُعْجِبُكَ أَجْسَامُهُمْ ۖ وَإِنْ يَقُولُوا تَسْمَعْ لِقَوْلِهِمْ ۖ كَأَنَّهُمْ خُشُبٌ مُسَنَّدَةٌ ۖ يَحْسَبُونَ كُلَّ صَيْحَةٍ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ هُمُ الْعَدُوُّ فَاحْذَرْهُمْ ۚ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ {4}

63:4) And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَسْتَمِعُ إِلَيْكَ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا خَرَجُوا مِنْ عِنْدِكَ قَالُوا لِلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ مَاذَا قَالَ آنِفًا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ طَبَعَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَاتَّبَعُوا أَهْوَاءَهُمْ {16}h

47:16) And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge: What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires.

4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

ALLAH knows what really happened. 
but the truth is I DONT CARE what happened, and the sense of care meaning it doesn’t matter… I have heard different versions of what has happened, but I am not trying to talk about it because as I said, I could never speak about it one day and still go to heaven

It does matter if one love & committed follow the Truth Almighty. 

And while you don't care, lets see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is saying in Quran:

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَنْ تُتْرَكُوا وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا مِنْكُمْ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذُوا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلَا رَسُولِهِ وَلَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلِيجَةً ۚ وَاللَّهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ {16}

9:16] What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet known those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken any one as an adherent besides Allah and His Messenger and the believers; and Allah is aware of what you do.

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَنْ تَدْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا مِنْكُمْ وَيَعْلَمَ الصَّابِرِينَ {

3:142) Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تَدْخُلُواْ الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِكُم مَّثَلُ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْاْ مِن قَبْلِكُم مَّسَّتْهُمُ الْبَأْسَاء وَالضَّرَّاء وَزُلْزِلُواْ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الرَّسُولُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَعَهُ مَتَى نَصْرُ اللّهِ أَلا إِنَّ نَصْرَ اللّهِ قَرِيبٌ

2:214) Or do you think that you would enter the garden while yet the state of those who have passed away before you has not come upon you; distress and affliction befell them and they were shaken violently, so that the Messenger and those who believed with him said: When will the help of Allah come? Now surely the help of Allah is nigh!

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If you don't mind me saying so,  you sound a bit confused brother.

You say you have never studied hadith, because the Qur'an never required you to. The Qur'an repeatedly says obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and obey the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). How can you obey the prophet if you haven't studied his narrations (hadith)?

You go on to mention that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) lived without it. This is strange, because the hadith essentially are the words of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

In any case, you are of course free to follow whatever you believe in. My humble advice would be to not rush into labelling things as haram if you don't have any knowledge about them. It seems that you lack familiarity with the Qur'an, the sunnah and islamic history. Perhaps some more years of study will be beneficial inshaAllah. 

 

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانتَهُوا

59:7) and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back

This is what Quran mentions & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands. Now whether you care or don't care about what has been given by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Ghadir, what he left after him from thaqalayn,  what he gave us as ark of Noah etc., I don't care.

This is mixing the truth & falsehood. How can both parties have correct points while one is following the command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & other don't? 

وَلاَ تَلْبِسُواْ الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُواْ الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

2:42 And do not overlay the truth with falsehood, and do not knowingly suppress the truth. 

We don't really need to choose,.I agree with you. But people have choosen the caliph at saqifah bani sa'da. Ignoring & disobeying the clear command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Ghadir e Khum.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ {119}

9:119) O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

This indicates your knowhow of Islamic history. And while you are talking about Muslims, let me remind you that a vast majority of hypocrites were dressed up as Muslims and they hate Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

وَإِذَا رَأَيْتَهُمْ تُعْجِبُكَ أَجْسَامُهُمْ ۖ وَإِنْ يَقُولُوا تَسْمَعْ لِقَوْلِهِمْ ۖ كَأَنَّهُمْ خُشُبٌ مُسَنَّدَةٌ ۖ يَحْسَبُونَ كُلَّ صَيْحَةٍ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ هُمُ الْعَدُوُّ فَاحْذَرْهُمْ ۚ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ {4}

63:4) And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَسْتَمِعُ إِلَيْكَ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا خَرَجُوا مِنْ عِنْدِكَ قَالُوا لِلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ مَاذَا قَالَ آنِفًا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ طَبَعَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَاتَّبَعُوا أَهْوَاءَهُمْ {16}h

47:16) And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge: What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires.

It does matter if one love & committed follow the Truth Almighty. 

And while you don't care, lets see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is saying in Quran:

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَنْ تُتْرَكُوا وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا مِنْكُمْ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذُوا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَلَا رَسُولِهِ وَلَا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلِيجَةً ۚ وَاللَّهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ {16}

9:16] What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet known those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken any one as an adherent besides Allah and His Messenger and the believers; and Allah is aware of what you do.

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَنْ تَدْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُوا مِنْكُمْ وَيَعْلَمَ الصَّابِرِينَ {

3:142) Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تَدْخُلُواْ الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِكُم مَّثَلُ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْاْ مِن قَبْلِكُم مَّسَّتْهُمُ الْبَأْسَاء وَالضَّرَّاء وَزُلْزِلُواْ حَتَّى يَقُولَ الرَّسُولُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَعَهُ مَتَى نَصْرُ اللّهِ أَلا إِنَّ نَصْرَ اللّهِ قَرِيبٌ

2:214) Or do you think that you would enter the garden while yet the state of those who have passed away before you has not come upon you; distress and affliction befell them and they were shaken violently, so that the Messenger and those who believed with him said: When will the help of Allah come? Now surely the help of Allah is nigh!

“This is mixing the truth & falsehood. How can both parties have correct points while one is following the command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & other don't?”

- I’m debating whether I should engage on why you believe this or not. You’re saying All sunnies don’t follow the command of the prophet?

im really curious what you believe the command of the prophet is ….?? 

My mother is still technically a “Sunni” quote on quote…. Because old heads are too stubborn to sit and listen. But she has NEVER called herself a Sunni. So it’s sad how far the terms sunni and Shia have taken us Muslims and separated us, ANYWAYS 

my mother has never mentioned Imam Ali to me in my life or Ahlul Bayt, and regarding your comment of them not following the conmand of the prophet, please explain to me why she is not.

she gives all her money to the poor, fasts more than anyone I know, doesn’t curse, prays 5 times a day, reads Quran and so much more! 
but here’s the catch, don’t answer that. Because nothing you say would make me believe she is not following the prophets command of being a Muslim. You like many other people in this dunya are just too stubborn to understand life and how we came to a point we are in. And that explains enough about YOU specifically. 

I know your intentions are good.

back to the matter of the subject.

—-

I don’t not KNOW what happened at battle of ghadir!!!!! Nor is it our business.

please elaborate on what specifically happened that CHANGED Islam.

NOTHING ELSE mention, not because wit isn’t important, but because apparently it has caused you to believe Sunnis don’t follow the prophets command because of it….. how so? I’m really curious.

—- and brother or sister, please don’t mention any verses that relate to KUFAR and try to use it against a Muslim 

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43 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

If you don't mind me saying so,  you sound a bit confused brother.

You say you have never studied hadith, because the Qur'an never required you to. The Qur'an repeatedly says obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and obey the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). How can you obey the prophet if you haven't studied his narrations (hadith)?

You go on to mention that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) lived without it. This is strange, because the hadith essentially are the words of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

In any case, you are of course free to follow whatever you believe in. My humble advice would be to not rush into labelling things as haram if you don't have any knowledge about them. It seems that you lack familiarity with the Qur'an, the sunnah and islamic history. Perhaps some more years of study will be beneficial inshaAllah. 

 

Inshallah, more years of study will always be good. 
 

Well to me it seems that the way the prophet lived has separated Islam.  So for one he wouldn’t be proud. 
Can you explain to me where sunnies and shias don’t agree? If you eat with your right hand or left hand? That is no reason to call your self a Sunni or Shia. 
 

And can you do me a favor? 
can you show me one Hadith from anybody or any group that will teach me something that I need to do that will make my relationship with Allah better?

My point was that NOTHING A Shia does is important enough for someone to label themselves a SHIA

AS well as Sunnis, although I don’t feel like I did anything importantly different than what the Quran taught. 
 

and concludes me saying that we shouldn’t label ourselves anything other than a Muslim. 
 

———

I honestly tell my Sunni friends there is no reason to label yourself as a Sunni and I educate them about the imams.

But why do Shias feel the need to go out the imams? And out of curiosity do you believe if you don’t do so you will go to hell? And do you believe if you don’t honour them as Sunnis that makes them not a true Muslim? Is Allah displeased if we don’t? 
 

I honestly do not see any necessity to honor them as they did what they did for Allah. Not for anyone else. They want to be please by Allah and they will be. 

if someone gave me a good reason to believe anything I would believe it. 
but they couldn’t, because nothing makes sense except Allah as god and Muhammad as his final messenger. Following the messengers before. 
 

I hope I make sense. I’m not confused, I just have so many different points and sometimes I bring it up at the wrong time 

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4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

 My mother is still technically a “Sunni” quote on quote…. Because old heads are too stubborn to sit and listen. But she has NEVER called herself a Sunni. So it’s sad how far the terms sunni and Shia have taken us Muslims and separated us, ANYWAYS 

my mother has never mentioned Imam Ali to me in my life or Ahlul Bayt, and regarding your comment of them not following the conmand of the prophet, please explain to me why she is not.

she gives all her money to the poor, fasts more than anyone I know, doesn’t curse, prays 5 times a day, reads Quran and so much more! 
 

but here’s the catch, don’t answer that. Because nothing you say would make me believe she is not following the prophets command of being a Muslim. You like many other people in this dunya are just too stubborn to understand life and how we came to a point we are in. And that explains enough about YOU specifically.  

Did you know that the people who killed Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) prayed 5 times a day, fasted, gave zakat and killed him in the name of Allah?

I guess they were following the Prophet too.

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I just want to interject this poignant discussion. Is the term Sunni mentioned in The Quran? Is the term Shia mentioned in The Quran?

I will preface this and start with the question. Is the term "Shia" mentioned in The Quran?

The answer: Yes

The pronunciation of the term Shia = Sheeah in Arabic. The pronunciation of the term Tehi = Teh-Hee in Arabic.

There are instances where the term "Shia-Tehi" is being mentioned in the Quran based on Surah 28:15 and 37:83. The term "Shia-Tehi" in Arabic meaning means "His Follower, His Kind, His Party, His Faction". The term "Tehi" mean "His" given the Arabic grammar going on with the context. Whereas the term "Shia" is being meant as "Follower, Party, Kind, Faction".

Given Surah 28:15 and 37:83 I think it's fair the following questions should be asked under Sunni Islamic Theology,

1. Are the followers of Prophet Moses (عليه السلام) going to go to Hell (Nawuzubilah) for acknowledging themselves belonging to the Faction of Moses (عليه السلام)?

2. Is Prophet Abraham (عليه السلام) going to go to Hell (Major Nawuzubilah) for acknowledging himself belonging to the Faction of Noah (عليه السلام)?

Are there instances where the term "Shia" is being mentioned in a Negative Connotation. Yes for example, Surah 6:159, 6:65, 30:31-32, 19:69, and 28:4. Sunnis claim that the term "Shia" has a negative connotation overall, but is that really The Fact or The Truth given Surah 28:15 and 37:83? It seems like this is a grey area term here when it comes to the Arabic Language and it's context.

Pretty similar for how Disbelievers twist the Definition of "Makr" in Arabic in such a brutally negative connotation to mean "Deceiver, Treacherous" in order to justify their own belief that Allah is the Greatest of Deceiver/Treachery given Surah 3:54.

Quote

MAKR

Has two meanings:

1.Plotting or planning evil intent.

2.Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54. They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’.

Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned.

Makkar = plotter.

Makereen = plotters

[8] Glossary Of Islamic Terms: English–Arabic – By Anwer Mahmoud Zanaty page 131 – 132

Even the Salafi website IslamQA acknowledged the Arabic Term "Makr" along with "Kayd" as a Grey Area within the Arabic Language where it could connote as either Positive or Negative in meaning based on the context,

Quote

Islam Q/A (Website: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/298313/is-it-permissible-to-describe-allah-may-he-be-exalted-as-planning-or-plotting)

The original linguistic meaning of the Arabic word kayd (plan, plot, scheme) is simply planning, but after that the meaning may vary according to the way in which it is used and the context; it may mean planning for a good purpose or scheming for an evil purpose.

When Allah, may He be exalted, referred to Himself as planning or plotting against the wrongdoers, this refers to planning for a good and true purpose, to requite the wrongdoers for their planning or scheming for bad purposes. In the case of Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, it is a matter of perfection, even though the word kayd (planning or plotting) may be a shortcoming and blameworthy in the case of people, for Allah, may He be exalted, does not resemble His creation either in His Essence or in His attributes or in His deeds. 

The Qur’an did not attribute kayd (planning, plotting) in a general sense to Allah, may He be exalted, without qualification. Rather kayd (planning) is attributed to Him, may He be glorified, as a counterpart to the kayd (plots and schemes) of the disbelievers, as we see in the verses quoted above and in similar verses of the Holy Qur’an.

So here's the much Bigger Question throughout all this. If Sunnis along with Salafi Muslims can take complacence with the fact that the nuance of Makr in Arabic is meant to be a Grey Area Term here where it could mean either way depending on the context, then why can't they use their line of reasoning to understand the nuance of Shia in Arabic to be meant as a Grey Area term?

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Quote

can you show me one Hadith from anybody or any group that will teach me something that I need to do that will make my relationship with Allah better?

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

https://www.al-islam.org/shiah-are-real-ahlul-sunnah-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi/hadith-al-thaqalayn-according-shias

Quote

if a Hadith logically adds up with the Quran then yes. But NO one ls word after the prophet is guaranteed truth. The Quran is the only word of god. Everything else can be debated and misinterpreted by us normal people. 

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

-----

6. The Concept of "al-Qur'an an-Natiq"

"Al-Qur'an an-natiq" means the "speaking Qur'an." This is a famous title given to the Shi'a Imams to describe their proximity to the Qur'an; they are the custodians of the Qur'anic message and its interpretation; they are the embodiment of the Qur'anic values and its ideals. This concept is based on the various sayings of the Prophet in which the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt are shown to never separate from one another.

The famous hadith of thaqalayn says:

"I am leaving two precious things behind among you: the Book of Allah and my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall not separate from one another until they come to me at the fountain of Kawthar (on the Day of Resurrection)."13

In another hadith, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet, quotes him as follows:

"'Ali is with the Qur'an and the Qur'an is with 'Ali; they shall never separate from one another until they reach to me at the Fountain (on the day of Resurrection)."14

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari reports that one day we were sitting waiting for the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).) to come out. He came to us while we saw that the strap of his shoe was broken; he gave it to 'Ali to repair. Then he said,

"One of you will wage war for the interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an just as I waged war for its revelation (tanzil)."

Abu Bakr said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No." Then 'Umar said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No, but the one who is repairing the shoe."15

Imam 'Ali himself said, "Ask me before you lose me, for by the One who split the grain and created the soul, if you ask me as to which verse was revealed at night time or at day time, whether it is of Meccan or Medinite [era], during journey (of the Prophet) or while in Medina, whether it is abrogator or abrogated, whether it is clear or allegorical, and whether you need its interpretation or context of its revelation-I shall inform you about it."16

It is based on these facts supported by the Sunni sources that the Shi'as use the title "al-Qur'anu 'n-Natiq" for their Imams. As we saw above, Imam 'Ali himself claims to have the true and inner meanings of the Qur'anic verses. This claim and belief has been there from the earliest days of Shi'ism. So it is incorrect to place the beginning of this concept in the latter period by saying that "the belief that the Imams were the 'speaking (al-natiq) Qur'an,' who knew the esoteric interpretation of the Book, most probably began during al-Baqir's time."17

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/knowledge-ahlul-bayt

 

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8 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

and brother or sister, please don’t mention any verses that relate to KUFAR and try to use it against a Muslim 

All the verses quoted by me, all are for Muslims. There are verses which contain command like "do not mix truth with falsehood" & "be with the true ones" these are divine commands for all Muslims as well as for whole humanity. Then the verses which contain question" do you think you will enter paradise or left alone", these verses are specifically for Muslims. Obviously Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not talking to those (kuffar) who rejected His messenger. Now here are another ones, specifically for Muslims:

أَحَسِبَ النَّاسُ أَنْ يُتْرَكُوا أَنْ يَقُولُوا آمَنَّا وَهُمْ لَا يُفْتَنُونَ {2}

29:2) Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tried?

وَلَقَدْ فَتَنَّا الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ ۖ فَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ الْكَاذِبِينَ {3}

29:3) And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars.

8 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

You’re saying All sunnies don’t follow the command of the prophet?

Yes, and I am referring to a command (singular form) specifically where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

"Whomsoever I am his master, this Ali is his master"

من كنت مولا فهذا علي مولا

So how is that your mother mentions you Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but not mentioning you Ali (عليه السلام)? She too either unaware of this command or either willingly avoiding to transmit what was mentioned by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Ghadir. 

8 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

she gives all her money to the poor, fasts more than anyone I know, doesn’t curse, prays 5 times a day, reads Quran and so much more! 

That's good but not sufficient. Who is her Imam? There is a hadith both in shia & sunni books:

من مات ولم يعرف إمام زمانه مات ميتة جاهلية

(Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of his time dies the death of ignorance)

Who is your Imam now? 

8 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

don’t not KNOW what happened at battle of ghadir!!!

:) Event of Ghadir was not a battle. It was a place where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) stopped after returning from the last hajj, when the verse of "balligh" revealed to him:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ {67}

5:67) O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

After this verse revealed Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) stopped immediately at a place name Ghadir e Khum, he called back all those who were moved ahead of him and waited for those who remained behind. And when all of them united at Ghadir, he delivered the famous sermon of Ghadir. You must search and study that important event, find out what sermon he delivered there, what important message did he delivered there after which the "verse of perfection" revealed:

الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا

5:3) This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;

This specific event highlights the leadership, guardianship, Imamate, wilayah of Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام)

So what I can advise you as a brother, is to please read and learn before coming to any sort of conclusion who is right and who is wrong. 

Read about what happened afterwards,.why a mother of believers fought a war with Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Why Muawiyyah (L) fought war with Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? Why Muawiyyah (L) fought war with Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)? and the peace treaty between them, why Muawiyyah ruined the clauses of peace treaty? Why Karbala happened? Why the so called Muslims have beheaded the grandson of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

All these historical records & events arr present at www.al-islam.org. Please read the history, figure out who is your Imam and do not die until you recognize the Imam of your time. 

Wassalam! 

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12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I don’t know tbh. I have trust issues 

if a Hadith logically adds up with the Quran then yes. But NO one ls word after the prophet is guaranteed truth. The Quran is the only word of god. Everything else can be debated and misinterpreted by us normal people. 

the prophet is a prophet for a reason. 

the Nabi Eisa was a prophet, but the people who have narrated about him have turned him into god. 
TRUST NO MAN ONLY ALLAH 

with that said, if it is lined up with the Quran and doesn’t effect the way I worship Allah then yes. 
I may accept it. 
but ask me if I will follow it? 
Tell me why I should follow it? 
Tell me what I gain that Allah hasn’t explained to me in the Quran. 

Why do you trust Qur'an ? What research have you done ?

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10 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Well to me it seems that the way the prophet lived has separated Islam.  So for one he wouldn’t be proud. 

So essentially you're saying that you have abandoned the sunnah of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) because people differ on whether the prophet appointed a successor or not (this is the core difference)?

Strange. This is like saying that one believes in God, but refuses to read the Qur'an because people differ on whether to follow the Bible, the Torah or the Qur'an.

10 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

can you show me one Hadith from anybody or any group that will teach me something that I need to do that will make my relationship with Allah better?

What you don't seem to realize is that you are unknowingly following the ahadith in terms of the details of prayers, fasting and most other acts of worship. 

10 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I honestly tell my Sunni friends there is no reason to label yourself as a Sunni and I educate them about the imams.

How exactly are you educating them about the imams? Where do you get your material from?

10 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

But why do Shias feel the need to go out the imams? And out of curiosity do you believe if you don’t do so you will go to hell? And do you believe if you don’t honour them as Sunnis that makes them not a true Muslim? Is Allah displeased if we don’t? 

Not sure what you mean by 'go out'. If you are asking why we follow them and refer to their teachings, it's because the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has instructed us to do so. 

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Guest Psychological Warfare

fyi

Quote

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don’t do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ...”(Qur’an 5:67).

If the Book is sufficient, Kindly, Explain - Deliver what? Where is it is the Book, ? Not everything in in the book, some was direct Communication as in the case above, to be delivered  by Muhammad Al-Mustafa(Peace be upon him and his pure progeny) to the Believers. 

Quote

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.”(Qur’an 5:3)

Since the Religion, has been completed. What was the purpose of saying- "I may write to you something after which you will never go astray" ?

Quote

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

Thursday! And how great that Thursday was! The ailment of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) became worse (on Thursday) and he said, fetch me something so that I may write to you something after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter, and it was not right to differ before a prophet. Some said, "What is wrong with him ? (Do you think ) he is delirious (seriously ill)? Ask him ( to understand his state )." So they went to the Prophet (ﷺ) and asked him again. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Leave me, for my present state is better than what you call me for." Then he ordered them to do three things. He said, "Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula; respect and give gifts to the foreign delegations as you have seen me dealing with them." (Sa`id bin Jubair, the sub-narrator said that Ibn `Abbas kept quiet as rewards the third order, or he said, "I forgot it.") (See Hadith No. 116 Vol. 1)

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ الأَحْوَلِ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ، قَالَ قَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ يَوْمُ الْخَمِيسِ وَمَا يَوْمُ الْخَمِيسِ اشْتَدَّ بِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَعُهُ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ ائْتُونِي أَكْتُبْ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ أَبَدًا ‏"‏‏.‏ فَتَنَازَعُوا، وَلاَ يَنْبَغِي عِنْدَ نَبِيٍّ تَنَازُعٌ، فَقَالُوا مَا شَأْنُهُ أَهَجَرَ اسْتَفْهِمُوهُ فَذَهَبُوا يَرُدُّونَ عَلَيْهِ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ دَعُونِي فَالَّذِي أَنَا فِيهِ خَيْرٌ مِمَّا تَدْعُونِي إِلَيْهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ وَأَوْصَاهُمْ بِثَلاَثٍ قَالَ ‏"‏ أَخْرِجُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ مِنْ جَزِيرَةِ الْعَرَبِ، وَأَجِيزُوا الْوَفْدَ بِنَحْوِ مَا كُنْتُ أُجِيزُهُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ وَسَكَتَ عَنِ الثَّالِثَةِ، أَوْ قَالَ فَنَسِيتُهَا‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4431

In-book reference : Book 64, Hadith 453

https://sunnah.com/search?q=Abbas+thursday

Both Question, should direct you to ponder hard on this issue of "The Book is Sufficient "- Conjecture. 

Who is the Wali/Guardian in (Quran 5:55) ? 

Who is the Ulil Amr/One with Authority in ( Quran 4:49).? 

Apparently, Book is not sufficient, a people interpret it differently. 

Circle back to Tragedy of Thursday to understand in clear words, Religion needed To be explained, can't be left for people to interpret it on their own, Arabic language skills. 

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On 8/25/2021 at 6:11 PM, realizm said:

:salam:

I have no problem with labelling myself Shia. It's part of my identity, my orientation. 

But I don't need that to reach my spiritual goal, i.e. quest for divine. 

Very interesting. 
 

are you comfortable labeling yourself that when these terms have caused so much separation?

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4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Very interesting. 
 

are you comfortable labeling yourself that when these terms have caused so much separation?

:salam:

Well the separation usually comes from people who do not tolerate difference. And I do not care about what such people think. 

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7 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Well the separation usually comes from people who do not tolerate difference. And I do not care about what such people think. 

Difference should be tolerated. All humans are different subhanAllah.

- bottom line there is not one good reason a Sunni or Shia could give to call themselves that. EXCEPT without the answer coming from a prideful heart. 
which Allah does not like. 
 

Sunnis are proud not to be Shia. 
And vice versa. 
 

shias are proud to hail the Ahlul Bayt when it does not effect an ounce relationship with Allah. 
 

anyways my point has been said there is no point for either party. And that is why I believe anyone who does call them selves either need to understand the psychology of life, Islam, and cleanse their heart (if needed). Allah guide us all

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On 8/25/2021 at 11:07 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

Why do you trust Qur'an ? What research have you done ?

Is this a serious question? Or is there a Typo?

if not can you elaborate why I shouldn’t trust the Quran……..?

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On 8/25/2021 at 11:49 PM, Mahdavist said:

So essentially you're saying that you have abandoned the sunnah of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) because people differ on whether the prophet appointed a successor or not (this is the core difference)?

Strange. This is like saying that one believes in God, but refuses to read the Qur'an because people differ on whether to follow the Bible, the Torah or the Qur'an.

What you don't seem to realize is that you are unknowingly following the ahadith in terms of the details of prayers, fasting and most other acts of worship. 

How exactly are you educating them about the imams? Where do you get your material from?

Not sure what you mean by 'go out'. If you are asking why we follow them and refer to their teachings, it's because the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has instructed us to do so. 

I’ve never said I abandoned the sunna, but what as a Muslim am I doing wrong that’s not following the sunah already? Why do I have to pick a side? What do u guys ultimately do that’s different?

 

I’m not educating them about the imams lives, I’m educating who the imams were .

I never knew Hussein was the prophets grandson growing up. But when I did learn that, I’ve understood that even if I never knew I could still make it to heaven… so I spent a lot of time thinking as to why Shias have him such a big deal. His story is amazing but he is a martyr for Allah and Islam. I think he would be disappointed to know what many Muslims are doing to honor him as it goes against allahs wish to self harm. Not the topic, but all these little details in life has made me understood that humans are weak minded. Because my shia friends don’t do what other Shias do. CULTURE goes along way in this world and many people don’t understand that it’s not religion 

 

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On 8/26/2021 at 12:24 AM, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

fyi

If the Book is sufficient, Kindly, Explain - Deliver what? Where is it is the Book, ? Not everything in in the book, some was direct Communication as in the case above, to be delivered  by Muhammad Al-Mustafa(Peace be upon him and his pure progeny) to the Believers. 

Since the Religion, has been completed. What was the purpose of saying- "I may write to you something after which you will never go astray" ?

https://sunnah.com/search?q=Abbas+thursday

Both Question, should direct you to ponder hard on this issue of "The Book is Sufficient "- Conjecture. 

Who is the Wali/Guardian in (Quran 5:55) ? 

Who is the Ulil Amr/One with Authority in ( Quran 4:49).? 

Apparently, Book is not sufficient, a people interpret it differently. 

Circle back to Tragedy of Thursday to understand in clear words, Religion needed To be explained, can't be left for people to interpret it on their own, Arabic language skills. 

I somewhat agree, maybe alhamdillah I am blessed enough to understand Islam in my way. And there are other people who need guidance. But the problem now is who do we follow, and it kind of answers my question more now on why people follow Shia or Sunni. Thanks for that a little bit. 
 

- still I don’t need to label myself either party as both have many wrong points. 
 

I am fine as I am I pray five times a day and fast and donate my money. Allah is not trying to make life hard for us. We make it hard on ourselves. 

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On 8/25/2021 at 10:00 PM, Cool said:

Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of his time dies the death of ignorance)

I’m sorry but that’s the dumbest thing I ever heard. Please don’t take words said by ordinary men and make it seem like it’s a religious saying. 
 

where does the Quran teach this? Lol. Allah wouldn’t agree with that when he told us what’s important in life. Having a personal Imam as a savior however you view it is not important. 

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On 8/25/2021 at 10:00 PM, Cool said:

So how is that your mother mentions you Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but not mentioning you Ali (عليه السلام)? 

Answer me one question…… from today forward if I never mention Imam Ali again in my life, would I go to hell? 
 

simple yes or no answer. 
 

In my studies of Islam he is a blessed soldier of Allah who did what he needed to do to help the prophets message continue. I feel you have took his message wrong. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I’ve never said I abandoned the sunna, but what as a Muslim am I doing wrong that’s not following the sunah already?

By abandoning narrations of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) you have essentially abandoned the sunnah. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Please don’t take words said by ordinary men and make it seem like it’s a religious saying. 

What!!!! This is the hadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), not the hadith of an ordinary man. 

The one whom every Muslim is commanded to obey, has said this and it is mentioned in both sunni & shi'i books.

3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

where does the Quran teach this?

 

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ 

17:71

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا جِئْنَا مِن كُلِّ أمَّةٍ بِشَهِيدٍ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ عَلَى هَـؤُلاء شَهِيدًا

4:41

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ مِن كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا ثُمَّ لاَ يُؤْذَنُ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَلاَ هُمْ يُسْتَعْتَبُونَ

16:84

وَيَوْمَ نَبْعَثُ فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْهِم مِّنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ شَهِيدًا عَلَى هَـؤُلاء وَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ تِبْيَانًا لِّكُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةً وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُسْلِمِينَ

16:89

3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Answer me one question…… from today forward if I never mention Imam Ali again in my life, would I go to hell? 
 

simple yes or no answer. 
 

In my studies of Islam he is a blessed soldier of Allah who did what he needed to do to help the prophets message continue. I feel you have took his message wrong. 

Your study of Islam seems not sufficient. 

If you don't recognize Ali (عليه السلام) & Imams from his progeny, as your Imam, then you will not go to heaven at least. 

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