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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunnis & Shia BOTH wrong. Honest discussion?

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9 hours ago, Cool said:

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) taught you Himself how to pray?

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said I am leaving behind two weighty things, if you cling to them you will never go astray. One is the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while the other is my Ahlul Bayt and these two will never separate from each other until they reach me to pond. 

So the "rope" is Quran in its samit & natiq form. (i.e., the Book & the speaking Quran, the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام))

Don't need to go down, this specific verse itself prohibits us to not divide into sects. 

This verse is a divine command which contain two commands specifically i.e.,

a) hold fast to the rope of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (you don't even know what the rope is)

b) do not divide. 

Cherry picking is haram here. You cannot just accept one verse and turndown the other. 

وَلْتَكُنْ مِنْكُمْ أُمَّةٌ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى الْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {104}

[Shakir 3:104] And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful.

This "ummah" is the Imams.

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُوا وَاخْتَلَفُوا مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ {105}

[Shakir 3:105] And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement.

The "clear arguments" are the two weighty things i.e., Quran & Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

 

I agree with your verses I really do. 
 

but in your mind you are interpreting it as it is talking about the imams. 
just as the meseehs interpret there book to Jesus is god when he never said that. 
 

the books are clear. Our minds are tuned to believe what we WANT them to say. 
 

I dont believe the ummah is the imams, nor the rope is speaking speaking about them. 
 

if you want to debate about this make a post and we can discuss those verses :)

 

I’m in no way a scholar but common sense is all I need. Allah has made life really clear until someone wants to add their own thoughts

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam It seems you have just focused on rituals on sects rather than understanding what is truth & what is falsehood which until you don't recognize what is truth & what is falshood . Therefore you won't go to Jannah whether you mourn for martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) or not as representative of truth & blessed tree in holy Quranby army of cursed Yazid & his cursed allies as representatives of falshood & cursed tree in holy Quran

totally agree with you.

He has done sacrifice for doing good & forbidding evil & returning Islam to it's original state of it for showing & providing way of finding truth & salvation for everyone & mentioning his sacrifice for Islam as a personal matter  is insulting to him , so consequently prophet Muhammd (pbu) which is equivalent to denying prophethood of prophet Muhammad (pbu) for salvation & guidance of everyone & decreasing his prophethood mission as something for "his gain  His own stars from Allah. His own seat in paradise. To continue the spread of Islam."

people likewise cursed Muawiah & cursed Yazid hd been doing same action which their standing against truth & martyrying represetatives of truth as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & his two sons has lead them  to hell so if anyone follows innovations & falshoo of cursed tree  likewise  crossing hands then he will ressurects with innovators from cursed tree which instead of being with Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) in paradise , consequently he will be with cursed tree especially cursed Yazid & cursed Muawiah forever in hell.

We are talking about which sect is following truth & which one is following falsehood & innovation which if you follow truth then you will be in paradise whether you mourn for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) or not then you will go to paradise but if you follow falshood even you pray whole of your life besideds Kaaba at best point of it between Rukn & Maqam ,so consequently , your deeds will be void & you will go to hell if you follow falshood of cursed tree. 

What flashood am I following you mentioned 5 times and I got confused. 
 

I don’t follow any group, nor do I care about yazid and his group or follow them. 
Allah will take care of Yazid this is not my duty. 

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allahumma-salli-ala-muhammadin-wa-aale-mjust Incase Shias did not know. 
 

EVERY Sunni reads this in every prayer. 
 

so curse anyone who curses other Muslims for ‘hating’ the family of the prophet. 
 

go get your education checked. 
 

 

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Allah will judge them

Above is a constant theme. Misdirected. You are hiding the real reason. We are not gods or master of day of judgement. However, we are to distance ourselves from them. 

Allah(عزّ وجلّ) will judge Iblis, However. 

فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللَّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ {98}

[Shakir 16:98] So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaitan,
[Pickthal 16:98] And when thou recitest the Qur'an, seek refuge in Allah from Satan the outcast.
[Yusufali 16:98] When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.

-----

Five time as day, understand and implement not only recite 

 

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
[Yusufali 1:7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

-----

 

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4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

claimed it is better so you can connect with Allah easier. 
ASTAGHFERALLAH. 
I don’t want to disrespect any Muslim but personally I will consider that worse than the Christians who say you need nabi Issa to connect with god. 

oddly enough, Allah chose not to connect directly with you.

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

oddly enough, Allah chose not to connect directly with you.

Ok now you’re getting technical with the term connect. 
 

praying is sufficient for me. Do what you like I’m just saying I don’t need a third party to reach Allah. He is on speed dial. 

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6 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Ok now you’re getting technical with the term connect. 
 

praying is sufficient for me. Do what you like I’m just saying I don’t need a third party to reach Allah. He is on speed dial. 

You know ppl can speed dial a wrong number or speed dial the right number but don't get an answer.

Allah used a 3rd party to reach you. Let me know pls when you reach sidratul muntaha and come back.

Edited by ShiaMan14
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22 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

My proof is in the Quran. 
 

so you Sunnis and Shias remind me of the Christians who are so confused, bring extra information, and talk about things that don’t matter to Allah. 
 

It’s a psychological human thing, nothing I’m bashing about. We all do it. We all follow blindly. 
 

once again you wrote a whole post regarding the difference between Sunnis and Shias praying when we both do it the same way 95% pretty much the same Sunnis and Shias. But the pride leads us to wanting to be the ‘right’ one. Now if you truly care about Allah the Quran tells you how to connect with him. Praying. Now you already pray, and today as Muslims inshallah we all are praying correctly because this is the way we’ve been taught. To bow down and mention his name, and read his words. 
 

ALLAH is not trying to make life hard.
 

you are making it hard and complicated by us discussing these things. 
 

I am not inventing a lie, I could say the same for you to add things in the salat, or for another Shia who says you must add Imam Ali in the salat? See. My point. 
hunans will always make mistakes until the end of time. It’s YOUR duty for YOUR own life to figure out what makes sense and what doesn’t. 
 

and to me all of this is EXTRA. 

I am not doing anything wrong to displease Allah 

and there’s nothing you can add to make me please Allah more. 
 

if there is ^^^ then please tell me and I will consider doing it. But you couldn’t. 
because you will understand as you tell me that anything about the Ahlul Bayt is extra. As other Shias have already said in the earlier replies that it is not needed but it’s better. 
 

claimed it is better so you can connect with Allah easier. 
ASTAGHFERALLAH. 
I don’t want to disrespect any Muslim but personally I will consider that worse than the Christians who say you need nabi Issa to connect with god. 

I don't know how that is supposed to be relevant and reply my points, so I'll pass.

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8 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You know ppl can speed dial a wrong number or speed dial the right number but don't get an answer.

Allah used a 3rd party to reach you. Let me know pls when you reach sidratul muntaha and come back.

Everything you claim are opinions said by other men. 
 

let me know when you understand that. Because man will fail you. 
The Quran is clear, don’t make it confusing and add things that don’t need to be. You will be part of the group that Allah warns who spread lies about Allah. You keep telling me to do things that Allah never asked!

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On 8/31/2021 at 2:02 AM, Abu Nur said:

And who is more unjust than he who invents a lie about Allah ? Those will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord." Unquestionably, the curse of Allah is upon the wrongdoers.

You quoted this from the Quran, and obviously I agree with you. 
 

but why are you being so stubborn not to believe that you might be the one creating a lie about Allah. If some criticizes me I would consider it especially if they are saying I am displeasing Allah. 
 

you are claiming I am lying about Allahs words. Just tell me how? I am willing to listen. But the problem is you will

- find one verse 

- interpret it in your own way (which to me is a lie, unintentionally)

- then will find words said hundreds of years after the death of the prophet which will help your lie (which is now the second unintentional lie)

- then you won’t consider the other words of Allah that I interpret differently. 
 

—————-

so what do we do from here?

we go verse by verse to understand what Allah meant. 
 

I believe MOST of the quran is clear when it comes to how to worship Allah. 
the verses that aren’t, we can move on to hadiths, and which logically add up with the whole quran. 
 

Other than that yes we as humans will never be able to communicate/debate/conclude

Just don’t always try to be right and we can discuss otherwise no point for me to waste my time. 
 

you haven’t mentioned one thing worth enough for Any person to label themselves a Shia. Or important enough. Or even cared for by Allah. 
I already give respect and prayers to the family of the prophet. I do not need to worship!

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3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Everything you claim are opinions said by other men. 
 

let me know when you understand that. Because man will fail you. 
The Quran is clear, don’t make it confusing and add things that don’t need to be. You will be part of the group that Allah warns who spread lies about Allah. You keep telling me to do things that Allah never asked!

What have I said and what is a lie? I asked you a simple question. If Allah chose a MAN to bring the Quran to you, why do you not think that a MAN is required to go to Allah?

Surely if my dua can reach Allah directly, then he could just as well have put the Quran directly in my heart. Or not?

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7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

What have I said and what is a lie? I asked you a simple question. If Allah chose a MAN to bring the Quran to you, why do you not think that a MAN is required to go to Allah?

Surely if my dua can reach Allah directly, then he could just as well have put the Quran directly in my heart. Or not?

Open your heart for the Quran and maybe you’ll see it could be there… 

but instead you WANT the hadiths more over the Quran 

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10 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

What have I said and what is a lie? I asked you a simple question. If Allah chose a MAN to bring the Quran to you, why do you not think that a MAN is required to go to Allah?

Surely if my dua can reach Allah directly, then he could just as well have put the Quran directly in my heart. Or not?

Because Allah is too great for us to comprehend. That’s why he sent a man. 

And if you seriously mean that, then consider Christianity. Sorry to say brother!!

but that’s the difference between us and the people of the book. The Quran is the final word of god. You are following traditions made way after the prophet. The prophet and his companions did not need Imam Ali to reach god Lol. 
cmon man

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I believe MOST of the quran is clear when it comes to how to worship Allah. 
the verses that aren’t, we can move on to hadiths, and which logically add up with the whole quran. 

Then what exactly is our problem here then? We have the rule that if narrations contradict the Qur'an then it needs to throw it away. This means that narrations do not have any authority over Qur'an, but Qur'an have authority over narrations.

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25 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Then what exactly is our problem here then? We have the rule that if narrations contradict the Qur'an then it needs to throw it away. This means that narrations do not have any authority over Qur'an, but Qur'an have authority over narrations.

I have no problem. 
 

I just want someone to agree that calling yourself Sunni or Shia is pointless and I’m not the only unbiased person here. 
 

it’s all logic and common sense to me. 
 

all these narrations are not the word of god, and SHOULD be debated. But also we need common sense. Cause Islam was perfected the day Muhammad Died. So why should anyone need to call Imam Ali to get to Allah. 
someone needs to agree with me

 

You can’t list me 1 thing that the prophet did that ONLY Shias do. So why do you do all the things you do? Or make yourself different. 
As for Sunnis, they don’t do much so I can’t say nothing except for the fact they call themselves Sunni which is wrong because the prophet called himself was a Muslim. 

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4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

WANT the hadiths more over the Quran

The Quran is superior to the ahadith but both ahadith and the Quran are necessary.

It is obligatory to obey the Prophet. Tell me, how do you obey the Prophet? What are you doing to find the commands and the traditions of the Prophet?

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On 9/1/2021 at 8:05 PM, Guest Reply said:

Open your heart for the Quran and maybe you’ll see it could be there… 

but instead you WANT the hadiths more over the Quran 

You keep bringing up everything other than answering the question directly. 

On 9/1/2021 at 9:05 PM, Guest Reply said:

Because Allah is too great for us to comprehend. That’s why he sent a man. 

That's ridiculous. Are you saying Allah couldn't inspire the Quran into all our hearts? Looks like you have no idea about the abilities of Allah.

Allah is so great that we can't comprehend him so he sent a book via a man to explain it to us rather than simply have us be born with the Quran in our heads? 

You need to re-evaluate your theories about why Allah sent the Quran via a man.

On 9/1/2021 at 9:05 PM, Guest Reply said:

And if you seriously mean that, then consider Christianity. Sorry to say brother!!

but that’s the difference between us and the people of the book. The Quran is the final word of god. You are following traditions made way after the prophet. The prophet and his companions did not need Imam Ali to reach god Lol. 
cmon man

I haven't mentioned a single tradition or Ali and yet you keep bringing it up.

Imam Ali and the companions needed the Prophet to go to Allah.

I am still waiting for you to tell me about your meiraj.

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21 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

The Quran is superior to the ahadith but both ahadith and the Quran are necessary.

It is obligatory to obey the Prophet. Tell me, how do you obey the Prophet? What are you doing to find the commands and the traditions of the Prophet?

I just told you we can debate exactly how the prophet lived. But that is not RELIGION. 
 

his commands and traditions that are narrated, are DEBATABLE, so you bring one and we can discuss it. Because I really want to I haven’t studied the hadiths like you did. 
 

I am not a perfect Muslim. 
i struggle to pray 5 times a day sometimes I can’t fast all through ramadan. 
 

the hadiths teach us how to live to make life easier. 
 

but tell me which Hadith I “need” that I’m missing? I truly don’t know one Hadith by heart. I pray and donate and fast. And try to be a good person. What am I missing??? 
 

Better question to clear the extra stuff I talked about ,

WHAT am I doing that is NOT obeying the prophet? Which Hadith are you referring to ? I feel personally as i am obeying the prophet. 

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On 9/1/2021 at 12:36 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

If Allah chose a MAN to bring the Quran to you, why do you not think that a MAN is required to go to Allah?

Can you clarify the second part so I can answer your question you keep saying I’m ignoring

53 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You keep bringing up everything other than answering the question directly. 

That's ridiculous. Are you saying Allah couldn't inspire the Quran into all our hearts? Looks like you have no idea about the abilities of Allah.

Allah is so great that we can't comprehend him so he sent a book via a man to explain it to us rather than simply have us be born with the Quran in our heads? 

You need to re-evaluate your theories about why Allah sent the Quran via a man.

I haven't mentioned a single tradition or Ali and yet you keep bringing it up.

Imam Ali and the companions needed the Prophet to go to Allah.

I am still waiting for you to tell me about your meiraj.

I’m bringing it up because SHIISM revolves around Imam Ali….??? 

- answer me one question. 
if Imam Ali was never in the story, never born. What would change about my relationship with Allah? 
NOTHING. 

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21 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

The Quran is superior to the ahadith but both ahadith and the Quran are necessary.

It is obligatory to obey the Prophet. Tell me, how do you obey the Prophet? What are you doing to find the commands and the traditions of the Prophet?

Never mind all the useless facts. 
this is straight from the Quran 

Indeed, you ˹O Prophet˺ are not responsible whatsoever for those who have divided their faith and split into sects. Their judgment rests only with Allah. And He will inform them of what they used to do.

I myself hold on to the Rope and try to stay United. 
you don’t. So you are part of the sect. Hence the word Shia actually being used in Arabic in the verse 

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On 8/31/2021 at 6:50 PM, Guest Reply said:

What do you mean I am hiding the real reason

Are you not aware of this, it is in the book you say you follow. To hide the fact, that it is not about our judgement as gods and say Allah(عزّ وجلّ) will judge them to accuse us of playing god, while knowing that is not what we do. Read 1:7 with clear mind. 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنْزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ ۙ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ {159}

[Shakir 2:159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
[Pickthal 2:159] Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse.
[Yusufali 2:159] Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-

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I just want someone to agree that calling yourself Sunni or Shia is pointless and I’m not the only unbiased person here. 
 

It is not pointless at all if the person have reached after the research and concluded that the teaching of Sunni or Shia or whatever sect is right. All of them are still called Muslims, because they believe in Islam and the principles of Islam.

The thing with us is that we all believe in mostly same principles but we differ with their interpretation. 

Quote

all these narrations are not the word of god, and SHOULD be debated. But also we need common sense. Cause Islam was perfected the day Muhammad Died. So why should anyone need to call Imam Ali to get to Allah. 
someone needs to agree with me

I agree with you that they are debatable and does not have same certainty than Qur'an, but some of the narrations do have certainty that can not be rejected. 

About calling Imam Ali (عليه السلام). I'm in the position that I do not reject or accept the concept, because I really do not understand the whole concept in the first place. So I prefer to call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly and safely which have been showed in Qur'an many times and our Imams (عليه السلام) followed the same steps.

Quote

You can’t list me 1 thing that the prophet did that ONLY Shias do. So why do you do all the things you do? Or make yourself different. 

Of course there is list where as Shia we believe that the Prophet (saws) did and believed but then Sunnis or others reject it. One is the most important thing is Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Quote

As for Sunnis, they don’t do much so I can’t say nothing except for the fact they call themselves Sunni which is wrong because the prophet called himself was a Muslim. 

Everyone call themselves Muslims. Prophet is not identified as anything of this because everyone was united by the Prophet himself. After Prophet (saws) demise people separated, disunited and formed their own interpretations. If God send us Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام), he will connect all of us and there would be only one sect and all others will be vanished:

And say: Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood has perished 17:81

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9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

so you bring one and we can discuss it.

Ok, let's first discuss the ahadith regarding the events of Ghadeer Khum which are considered by all Muslims to be authentic, even the Sunnis.

9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

WHAT am I doing that is NOT obeying the prophet? Which Hadith are you referring to ? I feel personally as i am obeying the prophet. 

By not learning all the commands of the Prophet, then how would you be able to obey all of his commands?

8 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I myself hold on to the Rope and try to stay United. 
you don’t. So you are part of the sect.

I want all Muslims to be united. I do not want division. I, however, have different beliefs regarding my obligations to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compared to the Sunnis so they adhere to their beliefs and I adhere to my beliefs.

In fact, you are also part of a sect. A sect is any division of a group of people from other groups due to different beliefs. Ever heard of Quranism? You do not believe that we must refer to the ahadith, so you have divided yourself from other Muslims who believe that it is obligatory to refer to the ahadith. The Sunnis and Shias were also divided because they believed in different things. How are you any different? This does not mean we cannot coexist or stand united. In fact, the A'immah emphasised that we must be united.

9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

What would change about my relationship with Allah? 
NOTHING. 

If Allah commanded you to follow Ali and you do not follow him and you are fully aware of Allah's command, then yes your relationship with Allah would be impacted.

On 9/2/2021 at 3:29 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

It is obligatory to obey the Prophet. Tell me, how do you obey the Prophet? What are you doing to find the commands and the traditions of the Prophet?

You have yet to tell me how you find out the commands of the Prophet in order to obey him. What information do you look at? What method do you use? If you do not have a way of finding the commands of the Prophet then you would be disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by not investigating, learning and abiding by the commands of the Prophet.

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

About calling Imam Ali (عليه السلام). I'm in the position that I do not reject or accept the concept, because I really do not understand the whole concept in the first place. So I prefer to call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly and safely which have been showed in Qur'an many times and our Imams (عليه السلام) followed the same steps

Thank you!

now please tell me what’s so important about calling yourself a Shia then?

why jot just label yourself Muslim and delete the term?

Indeed, you ˹O Prophet˺ are not responsible whatsoever for those who have divided their faith and split into sects. Their judgment rests only with Allah. And He will inform them of what they used to do.”

Quranic verse. 
 

- labeling yourself anything other than a Muslim confuses the weak minds and HELPS separate Islam. Rather than just teaching them your way and still uniting.

- unless you do other things that make you a Shia?

cause otherwise if you agree with my point of calling onto Allah alone and this Quran verse than I don’t see a point and no one has made it clear why there their points are valid. 

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Of course there is list where as Shia we believe that the Prophet (saws) did and believed but then Sunnis or others reject it. One is the most important thing is Wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

What is the Wilayah of Imam ali?

 

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

After Prophet (saws) demise people separated, disunited and formed their own interpretations. If God send us Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام), he will connect all of us and there would be only one sect and all others will be vanished:

So you admit separation. 
 

so can you clarify this verse for me 

Indeed, you ˹O Prophet˺ are not responsible whatsoever for those who have divided their faith and split into sects. Their judgment rests only with Allah. And He will inform them of what they used to do.

 

You are stating other things than what Allah clearly tells Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 
no one disagreed about Imam Mahdi.

 

the point is still labeling yourself a sect. Which is HARAM

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1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Ok, let's first discuss the ahadith regarding the events of Ghadeer Khum which are considered by all Muslims to be authentic, even the Sunnis

Ok I’m looking it up and can’t find a link that just shows JUST the Hadith? 
can you send me a link. 

 

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
10 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

 

By not learning all the commands of the Prophet, then how would you be able to obey all of his commands?

I asked you this

WHAT am I doing that is NOT obeying the prophet? Which Hadith are you referring to ? I feel personally as i am obeying the prophet. 

you replied with above^^^
You restating my question then asked me the SAME question. LOL

please read my question carefully and answer again. 
 

What as a CURRENT Muslim (Me) am I doing that is NOT following the prophets command. AND ONLY commands referring how to please ALLAH. 
because all the other ones just show how to be a better Muslim. 

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

I, however, have different beliefs regarding my obligations to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compared to the Sunnis so they adhere to their beliefs and I adhere to my beliefs.

THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW PLEASE ELABORATE AND BRING ME SOURCES. please don’t sent 100 links. 
Step by step. 
Starting with the Quran then Hadith to back it up

 

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

How are you any different? This does not mean we cannot coexist or stand united. In fact, the A'immah emphasised that we must be united

I am different because I don’t label myself anything other than what Allah called the prophet and the prophets before him. 
AS WELL AS ALL THE IMAMS. They were all Muslims and called themselves that. Why are you important enough to label yourself any different. You can still be a MUSLIM and have your beliefs. But that devil wants you to use pride to label yourself a Shia because, well, you know. It’s just a human thing for us to stand out, and be proud. Not blaming you

 

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

If Allah commanded you to follow Ali and you do not follow him and you are fully aware of Allah's command, then yes your relationship with Allah would be impacted

Every Muslim “follows” Ali, you just follow him way differently. 
 

ISLAM is not about Ali it’s about Allah. 
 

100% of the Quran, all 114 chapters !!!!!

not one of them where Allah is commanding ANYTHING about Ali. 
And even if there is ONE that Sunnis have missed or misinterpreted and it does end up being about the Imams, then OKAY but it still will not mean to do everything you are doing! It will not change for me but it has CHANGED your Islam. 
 

Picture yourself with the prophet and Ali. the goal was to spread Islam and ALLAH 

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Ok, let's first discuss the ahadith regarding the events of Ghadeer Khum which are considered by all Muslims to be authentic, even the Sunnis.

By not learning all the commands of the Prophet, then how would you be able to obey all of his commands?

I want all Muslims to be united. I do not want division. I, however, have different beliefs regarding my obligations to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compared to the Sunnis so they adhere to their beliefs and I adhere to my beliefs.

In fact, you are also part of a sect. A sect is any division of a group of people from other groups due to different beliefs. Ever heard of Quranism? You do not believe that we must refer to the ahadith, so you have divided yourself from other Muslims who believe that it is obligatory to refer to the ahadith. The Sunnis and Shias were also divided because they believed in different things. How are you any different? This does not mean we cannot coexist or stand united. In fact, the A'immah emphasised that we must be united.

If Allah commanded you to follow Ali and you do not follow him and you are fully aware of Allah's command, then yes your relationship with Allah would be impacted.

You have yet to tell me how you find out the commands of the Prophet in order to obey him. What information do you look at? What method do you use? If you do not have a way of finding the commands of the Prophet then you would be disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by not investigating, learning and abiding by the commands of the Prophet.

It’s amazing how pushy you are to obey Allah, ONLY When it’s about following the prophets command, specifically about the Ahlul bayt 

 

Your are so deep into the Shia Islam folders that you completely forgot about all the other things Allah commands. You only want things to do with Ahlul bayt. Anyways, you ignored my question with another question. 
 

I follow Muhammad’s commands by following the Quran. 
 

I can list of over hundreds of verses that 

ALLAH is speaking to Muhammad and he tells him 

“TELL THEM” 

so my commands come directly from Muhammad, coming from Allah. 
 

so answer my question now, what are you following that I SHOULD KNOW about that I’m missing about Allah ?

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Guys, you are going about it all wrong. Arguing Wilayah with a "Quranist" (rather, a Munkir e Hadith) is like arguing Quranic verses with a non-Muslim - or like arguing whether God is Just with an atheist - it's futile.

It will lead no where - the stubborn mule will just dig in his hooves, and you will eventually bang your head on a wall in frustration.

Just argue on the point of disagreement - specifically, why being a Munkir e Hadith is blatantly against the Quran - otherwise you are playing right into their hands.

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On 9/3/2021 at 9:36 AM, Sabrejet said:

Guys, you are going about it all wrong. Arguing Wilayah with a "Quranist" (rather, a Munkir e Hadith) is like arguing Quranic verses with a non-Muslim - or like arguing whether God is Just with an atheist - it's futile.

It will lead no where - the stubborn mule will just dig in his hooves, and you will eventually bang your head on a wall in frustration.

Just argue on the point of disagreement - specifically, why being a Munkir e Hadith is blatantly against the Quran - otherwise you are playing right into their hands.

LOL don’t worry I’m done. But idk who “their” hands are, because I don’t fall in any MANMADE group. 
 

I follow Allah and his messenger only. 
 

you are practically praying to nobody real if you believe what you just said. 
I didn’t even know QURANIST was a dang word [Edit]

 

you’re embarrassing to the Muslim word for talking like that. 
 

ill leave with this

QURAN 6:159

Surely, those who have made divisions in their religion and turned into factions, you have nothing to do with them. Their case rests with Allah alone; then He will tell them what they have been doing.

 

And if you don’t follow the Quran please don’t embarrass my religion like that and ever call yourself a Muslim. Thanks

 

PS: you bang your head on the wall because your little brain can’t comprehend a simple truth. Shows how small your brain REALLY is after talking like that LOL

Edited by Hameedeh
[Edit] Profanity was removed.
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10 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't have time to continue this discussion because I feel in the end it is just futile. My only advice is that seek more knowledge insha'Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and may God guide us to His right path.

Allah maek brother. Me neither I just kept replying because you did 

but ill end with this 

QURAN 6:159

Surely, those who have made divisions in their religion and turned into factions, you have nothing to do with them. Their case rests with Allah alone; then He will tell them what they have been doing.

 

 

verse came out while Imam Ali and prophet stood side by side. 

everything you follow was said after the prophet died. It’s common sense. 
 

so every man for them selves! And Ameen 

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19 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

is like arguing Quranic verses with a non-Muslim -

Some nerve!!

allah la ya samahak inshallah unless you apologize. 
 

maybe you can ask Imam Ali to forgive you 

maybe your pride is to strong for you to ask for forgiveness. 
 

YOU are a disgrace to Muslims

i never had any issues speaking with fellow Shia Muslims on here. You disgust me tho and you only said one reply

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55 minutes ago, Guest Reply said:

WHAT am I doing that is NOT obeying the prophet? Which Hadith are you referring to ? I feel personally as i am obeying the prophet. 

you replied with above^^^
You restating my question then asked me the SAME question. LOL

please read my question carefully and answer again. 
 

What as a CURRENT Muslim (Me) am I doing that is NOT following the prophets command. AND ONLY commands referring how to please ALLAH. 
because all the other ones just show how to be a better Muslim. 

What you are doing is ignoring many of the commands the Prophet has given to the Muslims by rejecting the ahadith.

58 minutes ago, Guest Reply said:

I am different because I don’t label myself anything other than what Allah called the prophet and the prophets before him. 
AS WELL AS ALL THE IMAMS. They were all Muslims and called themselves that. Why are you important enough to label yourself any different. You can still be a MUSLIM and have your beliefs. But that devil wants you to use pride to label yourself a Shia because, well, you know. It’s just a human thing for us to stand out, and be proud. Not blaming you

Now you are calling me proud and following the devil's temptations? Don't make such assumptions and do not attempt to make this debate personal.

Also, I label myself as a Muslim. A Muslim who follows Allah, His Messenger and the Ahl ul-Bayt. Furthermore, I do not like to stand out.

59 minutes ago, Guest Reply said:

It’s amazing how pushy you are to obey Allah, ONLY When it’s about following the prophets command, specifically about the Ahlul bayt 

 

Your are so deep into the Shia Islam folders that you completely forgot about all the other things Allah commands. You only want things to do with Ahlul bayt.

It is necessary to obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in all things, not especially when it comes to the Prophet. I only obey the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt because Allah had commanded me to do so. I primarily obey Allah. What commands of Allah did I forget?

1 hour ago, Guest Reply said:

I follow Muhammad’s commands by following the Quran. 

What about all of his other commands? You have failed to explain to me how you follow all the commands of the Prophet and continuously persist that the Quran alone suffices when the Prophet in authentic narrations has clearly stated that you must follow the Quran and the Ahl ul-Bayt (which includes the ahadith). Unless if you can prove to me your point from the Quran, ahadith or even from a logical perspective debating with you further will lead to nowhere.

 

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35 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

What you are doing is ignoring many of the commands the Prophet has given to the Muslims by rejecting the ahadith

Can you give me an example?

I never said I reject the hadiths. I said they are all debatable since they are not the words of god. And I assume 100% of Muslims should agree. 
you can’t blindly pick and choose which Hadith is true or say it’s false. It has to logically add up with the Quran. 
Not a Hadith that talks about the war between the Muslims. I don’t care about that. Allah doesn’t care either. He will judge the wrong ones and punish them. It’s that simple. Point done. 

39 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

I only obey the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt because Allah had commanded me to do so. I primarily obey Allah. What commands of Allah did I forget?

That’s where we differ. I don’t believe Allah told us to obey ahlul bayt the WAY you do. I do love them and respect them will obey and good words they have said that don’t contradict my beliefs with Allah. Or make me do anything spiritual extra. Common sense to me. 
 

you forgot a lot of his words in the Quran. Primarily that verse 6:159 in which you claim yourself a Shia which divids up the Muslim ummah. REGARDLESS OF your reasons. You are going against his command. 
 

41 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

What about all of his other commands? You have failed to explain to me how you follow all the commands of the Prophet and continuously persist that the Quran alone suffices when the Prophet in authentic narrations has clearly stated that you must follow the Quran and the Ahl ul-Bayt (which includes the ahadith). Unless if you can prove to me your point from the Quran, ahadith or even from a logical perspective debating with you further will lead to nowhere

Well from a logical perspective for now since I dont have the Quran or hadiths memorized. But maybe you can point out the hadiths and verses for me. 
 

- since, hadiths are man made, and debated between Muslims, there is a questionable factor when it comes to the source and reliability. Hence the reason some dispute, and some accept the hadiths. 
With that said let’s agree that not every Hadith you mention is 100% the word of god or came 100% out of the prophets mouth. It MAY have, but maybe 50% of it, maybe some words were added. ETC. whatever the case is. 
 

with that said, we need to break down the hadiths to see what was true and what part doesn’t line up with the Quran. Because the QURAN is the ultimate word of god. And NOTHINg should be disputed except how it’s interpreted. Further more, the prophets and Imam Ali ONLY had the Quran. So consider that. 
 

- my conclusion since they only had the Quran is that, 99% of my religion should come based on how they lived. And I know 100% that they lived according to the Quran, but 20% of what really happened in the narrations if those two men actually DID. As humans have failed religions in the past, things never change. That’s why Allah sent the FINAL messenger with the FINAL WORDS. The Quran. 
And no I am not a QURANIST Whatveer that is like the other guy said. 

does that answer your question??
 

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12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Can you give me an example?

For example, the procedure of the prayer.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

you can’t blindly pick and choose which Hadith is true or say it’s false. It has to logically add up with the Quran. 

There is a method in determining the validity of a hadith. One of the conditions is that the hadith must be in line with the Quran. If a hadith contradicts the Quran then it is unauthentic.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

- since, hadiths are man made, and debated between Muslims, there is a questionable factor when it comes to the source and reliability. Hence the reason some dispute, and some accept the hadiths. 

That does not mean you can reject all ahadith. You must accept the authentic ones.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

with that said, we need to break down the hadiths to see what was true and what part doesn’t line up with the Quran. Because the QURAN is the ultimate word of god. And NOTHINg should be disputed except how it’s interpreted

This is what the scholars do. They assess the validity of the ahadith. If a hadith does not line up with the Quran, then it is unauthentic.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Further more, the prophets and Imam Ali ONLY had the Quran.

Actually, the prophets received many revelations from Allah. Not everything Allah revealed or informed to the Prophet is part of the Quran.

Ali learned from the Prophet and receives ilham from Allah.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

my conclusion since they only had the Quran is that, 99% of my religion should come based on how they lived. And I know 100% that they lived according to the Quran

The Prophet got the religion directly from Allah. The Muslims learnt the religion by learning the Quran and following the teachings of the Prophet.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I don’t believe Allah told us to obey ahlul bayt the WAY you do.

Could you clarify how you think the Shia obey the Ahl ul-Bayt? I think you may have misunderstood something.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

you forgot a lot of his words in the Quran. Primarily that verse 6:159 in which you claim yourself a Shia which divids up the Muslim ummah. REGARDLESS OF your reasons. You are going against his command. 

"Shia" means a follower. The Shia of Ali are the followers of Ali.

You claim that we must just stick with the Quran. That means you are a follower of just the Quran and not the ahadith, going against beliefs of other Muslims creating a division. So you would also be going against the Quran based on your logic.

We believe the Prophet said to obey the Ahl ul-Bayt. The Sunnis believe the Prophet said to follow his Sunnah. So we went along following the Ahl ul-Bayt. They went along following just the Sunnah. Both sects were trying to follow the commands of the Prophet like how Allah had commanded us to. What haram thing did we do here?

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

And no I am not a QURANIST Whatveer that is like the other guy said. 

What do you believe in then? If you believe that we must follow just the Quran then you are practically a Quranist.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

He will judge the wrong ones and punish them. It’s that simple.

And those who do not obey all the commands and teachings of the Prophet would be disobeying Allah and hence be among the wrong ones.

12 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

That’s why Allah sent the FINAL messenger with the FINAL WORDS.

The Prophet was sent with the Quran and the commands of Allah, along with the knowledge regarding what Allah wants us to do.

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