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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunnis & Shia BOTH wrong. Honest discussion?

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10 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

And most surely Abraham was among the Shi’a of him (i.e., Noah)”(Qur’an 37:83)

so you are calling Abraham (عليه السلام) a Muslim but the Quran is calling him a Shi'a. Is Allah wrong? If Allah can call Abraham a shi'a, why I call myself a shi'a as well?

Oops, I did it again...:D

Abraham was shiat noah. That’s true. 
muhammad was shiat abraham 

I am shiat Muhammad. 
 

you are shiat Ali. A person who was not mentioned by Allah. Who you took willingly as someone greater than who Allah put him as just a leader. 
 

you are shiat Ali. 
Ali is shiat Muhammad. 
 

You can justify it all you want but you know well that comparing Ali to notable figures in the Quran makes 0 sense. 
you have a whole religion based on a person who is not even mentioned in the Quran. 

smh

Quran 3:67 

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah]. And he was not of the polytheists.

Ya u did it again… finding anything to interpret it into your own belief

 

goodluck 

 

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8 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his followers (Shia) and one from among his enemy. And the one from his followers (Shia) called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy." [28:15]

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in this verse calls those who follow Prophet Musa Shia of Prophet Musa.

Shia is a general term. 
you guys are using it as a religious title. 
 

stop trying to justify the term. You have THAT much pride that you MUST call yourself a Shia. Otherwise your whole Life, you’re whole view on Islam, would be shattered. 
 

goodluck

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Prophet Ibrahim was the follower of Prophet Nuh. Among the Banu Isra'il there were followers of Prophet Musa. We are the followers of the Ahl ul-Bayt, including the Prophet, Ali and the rest of the 11 A'immah.

Furthermore, the Ahl ul-Bayt called their followers, the "followers" (Shia) of Ahl ul-Bayt. So we call ourselves the Shia of Ahl ul-Bayt. You have failed to explain the problem with this.

 

 

Edited by Muhammad Al-Hurr
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17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

stop trying to justify the term. You have THAT much pride that you MUST call yourself a Shia. Otherwise your whole Life, you’re whole view on Islam, would be shattered. 
 

goodluck

The fact that you are just pushing our evidences aside as if they are worthless and the fact you are resorting to calling us proud proves that you do not have evidence to support your ideas, evidence to reject our beliefs and that you are close-minded.

Can you actually bring me a verse from the Quran or the authentic ahadith that would dismantle the beliefs of Shias?

Your primary "evidence" is verse [6:159]. Ok, if we cannot follow the Ahl ul-Bayt then what do you suggest us Shias should do?

17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

you have a whole religion based on a person who is not even mentioned in the Quran. 

We follow what the Prophet told us. He told us that Ali is our mawla (master). Hence we follow Ali and his teachings.

I do not understand your problem.

If you disagree that's fine! Bring evidences that support why you disagree.

If you are unable to do that and you persist in debating with assumptions and speculations and baseless claims then we have nothing to gain from this discussion and we might as well end it here.

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On 9/16/2021 at 10:46 AM, Guest Reply said:

Abraham was shiat noah. That’s true. 
muhammad was shiat abraham 

I am shiat Muhammad. 
 

you are shiat Ali. A person who was not mentioned by Allah. Who you took willingly as someone greater than who Allah put him as just a leader. 
 

you are shiat Ali. 
Ali is shiat Muhammad. 
 

You can justify it all you want but you know well that comparing Ali to notable figures in the Quran makes 0 sense. 
you have a whole religion based on a person who is not even mentioned in the Quran. 

smh

Quran 3:67 

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah]. And he was not of the polytheists.

Ya u did it again… finding anything to interpret it into your own belief

 

goodluck 

 

so you've gone from being a Muslim to shiat Muhammad. By the time we are done, you may be chanting "Labbaik ya Hussain"

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The reason why we need to discuss Ghadeer again & again can be understood from this thread. 

Those who call themselves Shia of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) unaware of what Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said at Ghadeer. They don't even know the fact that they need to enter into the city of knowledge through its gate. 

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9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

so you've gone from being a Muslim to shiat Muhammad. By the time we are done, you may be chanting "Labbaik ya Hussain"

If you gave me a good enough reason I would say it!

but it’s pointless. I could never say it one time and still please Allah, and go to jannah. 

I know what to say when Imam Hussein is mentioned. (Aleyhi salam) 

He would be proud of me, disappointed with you 

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On 9/16/2021 at 8:18 PM, Guest Reply said:

Shia is a general term. 
you guys are using it as a religious title. 
 

stop trying to justify the term. You have THAT much pride that you MUST call yourself a Shia. Otherwise your whole Life, you’re whole view on Islam, would be shattered. 
 

goodluck

Salam all of us agree that Shia is a general  term for followers  however we have not used it as religious  tiitle which during era of cursed Ummayads , they were calling  us as Rafidi because  of following  Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) & refusing  acceptance  of three caliph before Imam  Ali (عليه السلام) also Rafidi has been a general  tile for any who has been opponent  of Ummayads which during Abbasid era , Ahmad ibn Hanbal as one of four Imams of Sunni has called his followers   " اهل سنت" "Ahl Sunnat" because he has claimed  which only him & his followers have been following  tradition  of prophet (pbu) which  by support of Abbasids  from four sunni Imams for opposing Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام)  & their followers a new religious title of " اهل سنت" "Ahl Sunnat" has used for any follower of four Sunni Imams which it has shortned  to religious title of  سنی ""Sunni" ,and therefore title of Shias has been used for who has been following  Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) in opposition  of followers of four sunni Imams because  they have been Shias of four Sunni Imams also whether good or bad title of Shia has reffered  to Quran but on the other hand all of  religious  title likewise "Sunni" or "Salafi" or "Quranist" or "Wahabi " & etc are man-made titles which have no Quranic base . Therefore anyone  who calls himself  a "Sunni" or "Salafi" or "Quranist" or "Wahabi " his whole life & viewpoint  about Islam would be shattered but in contrast religious  title of "Shia" cis equivalent  to "Rafdi" which both title is great in presence  of Allah but on the other hand it's unpopular  on earth between  enemies  of Islam.

Quote

At the Time of Mu'awiya
In a letter to 'Amr b. al-'As, Mu'awiya called the companions of Marwan in opposing Imam Ali (a), "Rafida of Basra". From this report, it can be understood that whoever opposes the government, whether it be the government of truth or falsehood, he is called Rafida. Also, since Mu'awiya called his own followers Rafida, it can be concluded that it was not a negative title that time.[5]

Ibn A'tham reported a letter from Mu'awiya to 'Amr b. al-'As, in which Mu'awiya called the companions of Imam Ali (a) "Rafida of Basra".[6]

a man told Imam al-Baqir (a): O the son of the apostle of Allah, people call us Rafidi. The Imam pointed to himself and said, "I am Rafidi too" and he repeated it three times.

 

Quote

At the Time of Imam al-Baqir (a)

In al-Mahasin, al-Barqi mentioned two hadiths, according to both, this term was common at the time of Imam al-Baqir (a), before the Uprising of Zayd. Abu l-Jarud says: a man told Imam al-Baqir (a): O the son of the apostle of Allah, people call us Rafidi. The Imam pointed to himself and said, "I am Rafidi too" and he repeated it three times.[7] Abu Basir says, I told Imam al-Baqir (a): may I be your sacrifice! by labeling us with a name the governors have legitimated all kinds of confiscation, prosecution, and killing of us. The Imam said: which label? I said: Rafidi; the Imam said: "seventy persons refused the participation in the army of Pharaoh and joined Moses, in comparison to the rest of Israelites they had a firmer faith in Moses and they loved Aaron more than others did; so Moses called them Rafidi, then it was revealed to Moses: record them in Torah by the same title (Rafidi) as I have chosen this name for them." Then the Imam said: "Allah has given you the same name."[8]

 

Quote

Pride in the Title

One day 'Ammar al-Duhni testified in the court of Ibn Abi Layla (the judge of Kufa) the judge said: O 'Ammar! We know you, you are a Rafidi, your testimony is not valid. You shall go. As he was shaking and crying, 'Ammar stood up to leave. Ibn Abi Layla said: 'Ammar! You are a knowledgeable man, if you are unhappy with this name, quit this sect and you shall be our brother. 'Ammar then said, "no, it is not as you think, my tears were for me and you, I cried for myself because you ascribed a credit to me I don't deserve, you called me a Rafidi, whereas Imam al-Sadiq (a) says: the first to be known by this title, were the magicians of Pharaoh, once they realized the truth of Moses' divine miracle, they refused to obey the command and religion of Pharaoh, they joined Moses and accepted all the hardship and torture. Then, Pharaoh called them Rafidis (those who refuse) because they had refused his religion. So Rafidi is the one refusing all that is unpleasant by God. But I cried for you; because you dared to take the best title as the worst label, so how are you going to reply when you are questioned by your Lord about such serious crime on the day of Judgment?"

Upon hearing about this story of 'Ammar, Imam al-Sadiq (a) said, "If 'Ammar had sins greater than heavens and earth, they all would be forgiven because of this saying of his, and this saying will increase his reward to the point that each bit of his good deeds is a thousand times greater than the whole universe."[9]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Rafidi

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8 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

How come?

Because you shouldn’t mourn anyone’s death for too long. Ya humans are going and leaving this world as visitors. 
 

imam Hussein stood up for right and forbid the wrong. He died protecting Islam. So has every other Imam. So has the prophet. So has many other humans after. He would be disappointed to know where people have highly positioned him in their own lives, some as close to Allah, some hurt them selves, some cry about him for too long. As a great Muslim leader who I am believing that he ONLY cares for allahs pleasure, I don’t think he would appreciate how some people view him. It does him no good, it does Allah no good, but it does harm to some fellow Muslims. 
 

I honestly believe if he was here he would say “thank you, but please don’t. I died fighting for Allah I want to go to heaven.”

 

We pray as Muslims for Alee Muhammad his whole family. I believe it’s best to just keep it at that as logically that is a general 2 second duaa during every salat repeating about 5-10 times already. By 2 billion Muslims. That would be sufficient enough for him and his lucky family members. 
 

to push it further as if any one if them are symbolic to gods pleasure is pointless and could be haram depending on each person

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On 9/17/2021 at 3:28 PM, Guest Reply said:

If you gave me a good enough reason I would say it!

but it’s pointless. I could never say it one time and still please Allah, and go to jannah. 

I know what to say when Imam Hussein is mentioned. (Aleyhi salam) 

 

Baby steps lil'one.

Right now, we've just convinced you to label yourself as "shiat"...which you were dead set against at the beginning of this thread. This argument should be considered over but I will give you a history lesson now.

Shiism is the true Islam but the need for this label arose to distinguish ourselves from the people who started calling themselves sunni. "Sunnism" first started when Abdur Rehman asked Imam Ali (عليه السلام) if he would follow the Quran, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the sunnah of the previous caliphs. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) rejected the edict to follow the sunnah of the caliphs. 

When Muawiya and clan rose against Imam Ali (عليه السلام), they started referring to themselves as Ahle-Sunnah Wal Jama with reference to the caliphs and not the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The people on Imam Ali's side then had to refer to themselves as shiat-e-Ali who followed the Quran and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

So you see shiat-Ali is the same as shiat-Muhammad while ASWJ is deviancy from the pure Islam.

You are welcome...:D

On 9/17/2021 at 3:28 PM, Guest Reply said:

He would be proud of me, disappointed with you 

Are you sure? People in Karbala on Imam Hussain's side shouted regularly they followed Ali (عليه السلام) while people on the other side shouted they followed Uthman...

Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) may be disappointed with me but he did promise his intercession for me on they Day of Judgement. You will be in the line of "Has No Imam" - quranic reference.

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3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

When Muawiya and clan rose against Imam Ali (عليه السلام), they started referring to themselves as Ahle-Sunnah Wal Jama with reference to the caliphs and not the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The people on Imam Ali's side then had to refer to themselves as shiat-e-Ali who followed the Quran and Prophet (ص

Your problem is as if you know exactly what was in the hearts of the 1000s of Muslims at that time. When only Allah knows. 
 

people labeled themselves things after the wars. Ali and the prophets family, and even after the wars, before the war, and even till today the smart ones who know Allah will call themselves Muslims. That’s why I have never in my life heard a Sunni call himself “Sunni” nor have we ever discussed the wars or made it a religious thing. 
 

sorry, you are following the devils work by following people you do not know who created traditions that just don’t make sense. 
 

I follow Imam Ali better than you, because I call myself what he called himself. I only call to Allah as he only called to Allah. 
 

you follow people who followed another man. That’s SHEEP mentality. And you need to grow out of it.
 

it’s as if you don’t even care about Allah lol all you mention are the imams smh….

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:
On 9/17/2021 at 4:28 PM, Guest Reply said:

 

Are you sure? People in Karbala on Imam Hussain's side shouted regularly they followed Ali (عليه السلام) while people on the other side shouted they followed Uthman

There are many parts of the world that are Islamic Story/historical landmarks. But not religious affiliated. 
 

I probably will never go to Karbala in my life, does Allah care? Muhammad never went there. Nor did Ali. Nor did Allah ever mention Karbala. 
 

if I don’t need it for religion why should I bother to the extent that you do? 
 

you can’t answer that can you ^

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

mam Hussain (عليه السلام) may be disappointed with me but he did promise his intercession for me on they Day of Judgement. You will be in the line of "Has No Imam" - quranic reference

Imam Hussein promised his intercession?

as in he can forgive you?

I am confused and don’t understand what you meant nor do I want to discuss it. 

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Right now, we've just convinced you to label yourself as "shiat"...which you were dead set against at the beginning of this thread. This argument should be considered over but I will give you a history lesson now

I am deadset against labelling our selves anything other than a Muslim. 
 

if you want to be prideful and use the word shiat, and notice how your didn’t use the whole term “shiat Ali” because you know you didn’t convince me. But if you did want to show the world you are a Shia without separation you could say you are Shiat Muhammad. But you intentionally separate Islam by proudly saying you are Shiat Ali. Which Ali has no control/didn’t want anything to do with separating Islam. So by that you are dishonoring him and Allah. 
 

As Ali was Shiat Muhammad, so was the companions of Muhammad Shiat Muhammad. And anyone who disagrees is not a true believer in faith. Even the people who went against Ali, if they intentionally caused harm to Ali or disrupted the teachings of the prophets they are no true Muslims and inshallah Allah will curse them in hell fire. I don’t care for them nor do I even care about the Islamic leaders at those times. I care only if Allah needs time to care. I care enough just to explain to uneducated Muslims there status. I don’t care enough to hold them as a higher status then they are. Like you do with the imams

 

 

——-

Please don’t reply unless you have something new talk about. Or you finally have proof it’s okay to become a sect of Islam when the Quranic verses tell you not too. With that said, the Quran is the ultimate word so this thread ends here. You cannot come up with anyrhing

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3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Your problem is as if you know exactly what was in the hearts of the 1000s of Muslims at that time. When only Allah knows. 
 

people labeled themselves things after the wars. Ali and the prophets family, and even after the wars, before the war, and even till today the smart ones who know Allah will call themselves Muslims. That’s why I have never in my life heard a Sunni call himself “Sunni” nor have we ever discussed the wars or made it a religious thing. 
 

sorry, you are following the devils work by following people you do not know who created traditions that just don’t make sense. 

"Book of Allah is sufficient for us" said Umar bin Khattab and was kicked out of the presence of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Shiat-Muhammad find that statement by Umar very offensive because the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) found it offensive and here you are repeating the false sunnah of Umar.

"Ahle-Sunnah Wal Jama" is new to you?

3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

There are many parts of the world that are Islamic Story/historical landmarks. But not religious affiliated. 
 

I probably will never go to Karbala in my life, does Allah care? Muhammad never went there. Nor did Ali. Nor did Allah ever mention Karbala. 
 

if I don’t need it for religion why should I bother to the extent that you do? 
 

you can’t answer that can you ^

Sure I can. You should go because Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) went there???

3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

 

Imam Hussein promised his intercession?

as in he can forgive you?

I am confused and don’t understand what you meant nor do I want to discuss it. 

You don't know what intercession is?

3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

 I am deadset against labelling our selves anything other than a Muslim. 
 

if you want to be prideful and use the word shiat, and notice how your didn’t use the whole term “shiat Ali” because you know you didn’t convince me. But if you did want to show the world you are a Shia without separation you could say you are Shiat Muhammad. But you intentionally separate Islam by proudly saying you are Shiat Ali. Which Ali has no control/didn’t want anything to do with separating Islam. So by that you are dishonoring him and Allah. 
 

As Ali was Shiat Muhammad, so was the companions of Muhammad Shiat Muhammad. And anyone who disagrees is not a true believer in faith. Even the people who went against Ali, if they intentionally caused harm to Ali or disrupted the teachings of the prophets they are no true Muslims and inshallah Allah will curse them in hell fire. I don’t care for them nor do I even care about the Islamic leaders at those times. I care only if Allah needs time to care. I care enough just to explain to uneducated Muslims there status. I don’t care enough to hold them as a higher status then they are. Like you do with the imams

Hmmm, you labeled yourself as shiat-Muhammad. Shouldn't you call yourself Shiat-Allah unless shiat-Muhammad is mentioned in the Quran?

Why can you label yourself but not me?

3 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Please don’t reply unless you have something new talk about. Or you finally have proof it’s okay to become a sect of Islam when the Quranic verses tell you not too. With that said, the Quran is the ultimate word so this thread ends here. You cannot come up with anyrhing

Shia is the only non-sect Muslim. Everyone else broke of from us to get labels.

 

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9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Because you shouldn’t mourn anyone’s death for too long.

It is not obligatory to mourn for Husain's death. If you do not believe in it, you can decide not to mourn. 

9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

He would be disappointed to know where people have highly positioned him in their own lives, some as close to Allah, some hurt them selves

I agree with this.

4 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Please don’t reply unless you have something new talk about. Or you finally have proof it’s okay to become a sect of Islam when the Quranic verses tell you not too. With that said, the Quran is the ultimate word so this thread ends here. You cannot come up with anyrhing

You are just going around in circles. You have not answered this one question of mine: If we cannot follow the Ahl ul-Bayt, what do we do? What/Who do we follow? The Quranic verse is not even speaking in a general way. It is referring to the polytheists, including Christians and Jews, who deviate from the path of Allah and create sects. Furthermore, we were the followers of the Ahl ul-Bayt since the beginning so no we are not a sect. We are followers of Muhammad and his teachings and commands.

5 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

But you intentionally separate Islam by proudly saying you are Shiat Ali. Which Ali has no control/didn’t want anything to do with separating Islam. So by that you are dishonoring him and Allah. 

Ali was the one who called us his "followers" (Shia). What is wrong with saying that we follow Ali and the Prophet?

5 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

if I don’t need it for religion why should I bother to the extent that you do? 

It is not obligatory to go to Karbala.

5 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I follow Imam Ali better than you

So you are a follower of Ali? Perhaps a Shi'i of Ali?

5 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I call myself what he called himself

You do not even know the authentic ahadith. You do not know what Ali has done so don't act like you know. Furthermore, Ali called his followers, his followers (I literally do not see anything wrong with this at all, your argument is nonsensical). And yes of course Ali would not call himself the follower of Ali.

5 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

you are following the devils work

Now you are saying we are following the devil, further proving the extent of your ignorance and the fact that you do not have evidence to back up your baseless claims and assumptions. Either bring evidence or don't. Saying your personal opinion does not matter nor amount to any convincing evidence.

 

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6 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Please don’t reply unless you have something new talk about. Or you finally have proof it’s okay to become a sect of Islam when the Quranic verses tell you not too. With that said, the Quran is the ultimate word so this thread ends here. You cannot come up with anyrhing

[Yusufali 3:61] If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"

Who is "ourselves" in this case?

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