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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunnis & Shia BOTH wrong. Honest discussion?

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  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I never said I reject the hadiths. I said they are all debatable since they are not the words of god. And I assume 100% of Muslims should agree.

Your posts for the past few days make it perfectly clear to all of us that you are a Munkir e Hadith, whether you want to call it that or not.

If you still deny it, go and bring a few ahadith that, according to you, logically add up to the Quran and are acceptable to you.

You still haven't answered what you mean by translating tafsir. Translation is a different thing, tafsir is different.

 

Edited by Sabrejet
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11 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Your posts for the past few days make it perfectly clear to all of us that you are a Munkir e Hadith, whether you want to call it that or not.

If you still deny it, go and bring a few ahadith that, according to you, logically add up to the Quran and are acceptable to you.

You still haven't answered what you mean by translating tafsir. Translation is a different thing, tafsir is different.

 

Chapter 31:6 

But there are some who employ theatrics,1 only to lead others away from Allah’s Way—without any knowledge—and to make a mockery of it. They will suffer a humiliating punishment.


I don’t want to be this person so I won’t bring up any. I’m not knowledgeable enough for hadiths.

 

Chapter 46 verse 9: Say (O Muhamad), ''I'm not any different from other Messengers. I've no idea what will happen to me, or to you! I only follow what is revealed to me; I am not more than a clear warner”

 

I am done with this topic. 
You have pushed me away more from Hadiths after this post LOL 

 

I have been doing more research and now I really am believing we don’t need hadiths at all. 
 

SOOOO MUCH CONTRADICTORY WITH THE QURAN. 
And most were made after 200 years

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On 9/4/2021 at 12:33 AM, Sabrejet said:

Your posts for the past few days make it perfectly clear to all of us that you are a Munkir e Hadith, whether you want to call it that or not.

If you still deny it, go and bring a few ahadith that, according to you, logically add up to the Quran and are acceptable to you.

You still haven't answered what you mean by translating tafsir. Translation is a different thing, tafsir is different.

 

I meant the way we Interpret the tafsir. 

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On 9/3/2021 at 11:47 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

The Prophet was sent with the Quran and the commands of Allah, along with the knowledge regarding what Allah wants us to do.

Yes…. And all that came from the Quran every ounce of his knowledge. 

humans have altered the Quran with their Hadith teachings. (Some) so it’s important not to follow the devil (unintentionally)

On 9/3/2021 at 11:47 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

And those who do not obey all the commands and teachings of the Prophet would be disobeying Allah and hence be among the wrong ones

Ok but I believe I am following his commands and you believe you are, and the part that will make one of us right or wrong is that WHAT commands are you following and WHAT commands am I following. 

I get my source directly from the Quran

you get your source from a tree of words, a lineage of humans who say different things, and not 50% accurate. 50% unsure 50% fake 

so…. Logically you are 100% more vulnerable to be apart of a fake teaching. 

that’s simple logic. Add the facts 

On 9/3/2021 at 11:47 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
On 9/3/2021 at 11:00 AM, Guest Reply said:

 

What do you believe in then? If you believe that we must follow just the Quran then you are practically a Quranist

I said hadiths are allowed if they don’t confuse with the Quran or ADD things to religion. Muhammad was a Quranist then [Edit]. Muhammad got 100% of his knowledge from the Quran. 1000% no 99%, every thing he ever taught 100%!!

and yes I know you’re gonna say the narrations will explain what he taught. But HE TAUGHT THE QURAN, so LEARN from the Quran. the narrations will fall under the 50% thing I was talking about 

On 9/3/2021 at 11:47 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Both sects were trying to follow the commands of the Prophet like how Allah had commanded us to. What haram thing did we do here?

You keep admitting the sects 

and I show you the verses where it’s haram to divide and be a SECT. 

so how is this not CLEAR as daylight. It’s BOTTOM line stop trying to find an excuse as to why it’s okay to call yourself anything or be in any sect. You just keep coming up with the hadiths and Quran and sunnah and Ahlul bayt. 

I have not added one thing of my own OPINION in any reply in this post. 

Anything you believe or mentioned is not 100% a direct source bro 

On 9/3/2021 at 11:47 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Could you clarify how you think the Shia obey the Ahl ul-Bayt? I think you may have misunderstood something

In 6th grade a Shia claimed I and all sunnies was responsible for yazid and Imam Hussein. See what young kids are being taught? Another Shia calls Imam Ali in the Athan. Another has tried personally connect with the imams spiritually. Another has made himself bleed and killing himself for Hussein. 

so enough about obeying the Imams because obliviously this culture has disrupted enough minds. 

and then there are Shias like you who deny all this stuff I mentioned and said they are not true Shias. 
which leads back to my WHOLE ENTIRE POINT 

it is HARAM for an educated Muslim to label himself a sect. AND this is Allahs command not only my POINT. 

Edited by Hameedeh
[Edit] Profanity was removed.
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On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

Yes…. And all that came from the Quran every ounce of his knowledge. 

No, not everything the Allah revealed to the Prophet is in the Quran.

On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

so…. Logically you are 100% more vulnerable to be apart of a fake teaching. 

You are 100% not following the complete religion by rejecting ahadith. You cannot reject all of them. It is 100% that there are authentic ahadith out there. It is your obligation to learn and follow them. It is 100% that there are unauthentic ahadith. It is your obligation to reject them.

On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

I said hadiths are allowed if they don’t confuse with the Quran or ADD things to religion. Muhammad was a Quranist then [Edit]. Muhammad got 100% of his knowledge from the Quran. 1000% no 99%, every thing he ever taught 100%!!

Muhammad got his knowledge from Allah. The Quran was among the things revealed to the Prophet.

On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

You keep admitting the sects 

and I show you the verses where it’s haram to divide and be a SECT. 

so how is this not CLEAR as daylight. It’s BOTTOM line stop trying to find an excuse as to why it’s okay to call yourself anything or be in any sect. You just keep coming up with the hadiths and Quran and sunnah and Ahlul bayt. 
 

I have not added one thing of my own OPINION in any reply in this post. 
 

Anything you believe or mentioned is not 100% a direct source bro 

I just explained we did not choose to become sects. The division was due to different beliefs. Both Shias and Sunnis believe they are following the right path. What do you suggest the Shias and Sunnis should have done? Do you think both sects should have rejected the teachings of the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt and just stuck with the Quran (despite that it would be going against the command of Prophet) in order to remain united following not the complete religion of Islam? The Prophet said in front of 100000 Muslims that we are required to not just follow the Quran but also his teachings and the teachings of the Ahl ul-Bayt. This event is well documented. To reject this event is illogical.

If the Quran was sufficient then why would he tell us to obey his teachings as well? Do you think the people living when the Prophet was alive must only take the Quran from the Prophet then ignore the Prophet in everything else? When the Prophet tells them to perform prayers in a certain away, do you think the people should have ignored the Prophet and told him "But that is not mentioned in the Quran so we will not perform prayers in that way"?

On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

so enough about obeying the Imams because obliviously this culture has disrupted enough minds. 

These are uneducated about basic Shia beliefs.

On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

and then there are Shias like you who deny all this stuff I mentioned and said they are not true Shias. 

Because they are going against the Quran and the ahadith.

On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

it is HARAM for an educated Muslim to label himself a sect. AND this is Allahs command not only my POINT. 

We all label ourselves as Muslim. We say we are Sunni or Shia to make our beliefs identified to others, not to make a separate religion. It is not wajib to call ourselves Sunni or Shia. I have seen a Sunni scholar (Dr Zakir Naik) saying that we must identify ourselves as Muslim not Shia or Sunni and I agree with him but I do not see anything wrong with identifying our beliefs to others by saying that we are Sunni or Shia.

Edited by Hameedeh
[Edit] Profanity was removed from the quote.
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On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

No, not everything the Allah revealed to the Prophet is in the Quran

Interesting. Please point the text out?

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

You are 100% not following the complete religion by rejecting ahadith. You cannot reject all of them. There are 100% authentic ahadith out there. It is your obligation to learn and follow them. There are 100% unauthentic ahadith. It is your obligation to reject them

IF I chose to consider this, who would I trust! A man? You? A man 1500 years ago whos no different then men today? Someone Allah didn’t appoint? No thank you. 
I accept Hadith. For the 10th time. 
just none that are MENS words. Also none that contradict the Quran. Narrations of Muhammad yes I will consider as long as it lines up with what the Quran preaches.


good example : how to pray 

bad example : communicate with ali to talk to Allah 

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
On 9/4/2021 at 1:12 PM, Guest Reply said:

 

Muhammad got his knowledge from Allah. The Quran was among the things revealed to the Prophet

You’re confusing yourself with this one. Yes.. Muhammad got his knowledge from Gabriel and the Quran. From Allah 

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

If the Quran was sufficient then why would he tell us to obey his teachings as well? Do you think the people living when the Prophet was alive must only take the Quran from the Prophet then ignore the Prophet in everything else? When the Prophet tells them to perform prayers in a certain away, do you think the people should have ignored the Prophet and told him "But that is not mentioned in the Quran so we will not perform prayers in that way

I follow Muhammad’s teachings. When I get lost in life about something I read what Muhammad used to do and that stuff comes Hadith I get it. I’m following his commands. His teachings. Taught us how to be good Muslims. Didn’t teach us to worship imams. 
As for the people who broke into sects that’s their problem they will have to answer to Allah for all this they have done. Doesn’t mean you have to be a sheep and follow anyone.

I HIGHLY DOUBT either person involved in those conflicts meant to start a sect. They all believed in the same teachings right? U said they were fighting for a leader right? Put two and two together. Add up the facts. Humans who followed made it spread worse and worse. So are you as well. 

On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

We all label ourselves as Muslim. We say we are Sunni or Shia to make our beliefs identified to others, not to make a separate religion. It is not wajib to call ourselves Sunni or Shia. I have seen a Sunni scholar (Dr Zakir Naik) saying that we must identify ourselves as Muslim not Shia or Sunni and I agree with him but I do not see anything wrong with identifying our beliefs to others by saying that we are Sunni or Shia

We’ll I’m glad you agree to that. But identifying as a sect well I already told you what all will do. 
and you sound smart so I’ll say nothing more about that cause I told you were I stand. Labeling yourself helps make the religion more separated. 

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I have been doing more research and now I really am believing we don’t need hadiths at all. 

Now, you have done what you have been posting against. 

Created another proxy. Qur'an Only proxy and went against Qur'an 3:7. I have to distance myself from you in public and we don't follow the same way of life. 

If you call yourself Muslim, we are two different kind of Muslims. 

Now what is your solution? Muslims version 1 and Muslim version 2.........

This is a topic, which has no basis, except waist of time. There may be thousand versions of quranists, all understanding the book their own way....now we have thousand proxies....

Return to Ghadir Khumm so Muslims can be united under one leadership. or stay divided in thousands of versions of muslims.

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On 9/4/2021 at 7:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

I just explained we did not choose to become sects. The division was due to different beliefs. Both Shias and Sunnis believe they are following the right path. What do you suggest the Shias and Sunnis should have done? Do you think both sects should have rejected the teachings of the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt and just stuck with the Quran (despite that it would be going against the command of Prophet) in order to remain united following not the complete religion of Islam? The Prophet said in front of 100000 Muslims that we are required to not just follow the Quran but also his teachings and the teachings of the Ahl ul-Bayt. This event is well documented. To reject this event is illogical

I see Sunnis and Shias both striving to follow the teachings of the prophet. So what makes you guys different is how you view the imams. Bottom line is you need the imams for help to reach Allah and Sunnis don’t. 
 

the first chapter in the Quran literally says do not ask for help from anyone but Allah. 
 

but anyway have a good day

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On 9/7/2021 at 12:59 PM, Guest Reply said:

Bottom line is you need the imams for help to reach Allah and Sunnis don’t. 
 

No you do not need the Imams. You can only supplicate directly to Allah.

Verse [4:64] says you can ask the Prophet while he is alive to ask Allah to forgive you. Whether you can ask him after his death is debatable.

On 9/4/2021 at 7:52 PM, Guest Reply said:

Interesting. Please point the text out?

My proof is the authentic ahadith. Where is your proof? Which verse or hadith says that everything revealed to the Prophet is in the Quran?

On 9/4/2021 at 7:52 PM, Guest Reply said:

I HIGHLY DOUBT either person involved in those conflicts meant to start a sect.

Exactly.

On 9/4/2021 at 7:52 PM, Guest Reply said:

Labeling yourself helps make the religion more separated. 

We are not trying to cause separation. We just follow the teachings of Allah, the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt.

On 9/4/2021 at 7:52 PM, Guest Reply said:

I follow Muhammad’s teachings. When I get lost in life about something I read what Muhammad used to do and that stuff comes Hadith I get it. I’m following his commands. His teachings. Taught us how to be good Muslims.

That is what we also do. We learn his teachings and we follow them.

On 9/4/2021 at 7:52 PM, Guest Reply said:

Didn’t teach us to worship imams.

We. Do. Not. Worship. The. Imams.

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On 9/7/2021 at 10:10 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

We are not trying to cause separation. We just follow the teachings of Allah, the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt

Correct, and as I said in the other reply on the other post, it looks like we believe the same things. 
but many Shias don’t they tend to see it different. I believe many Shias won’t agree with you, whether they are uneducated or they have different beliefs. The fact that shiism is technically a sect whether you meant it to be or not, it is. And it has effected the minds of many people. Just as Sunnis labeling themselves Sunni when I don’t see how they are different then the things you preached. We used to mention Imam Ali at Friday khutbas all the time. 

On 9/7/2021 at 10:10 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

e. Do. Not. Worship. The. Imams

I understand this now. But still to a certain extent the imams are being treated as worshipped. Maybe not by You. but the fact that imams are mentioned in the Shias daily life more than Allah shows otherwise. 

technically no not a worship. Ok same page 

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On 9/7/2021 at 10:10 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Verse [4:64] says you can ask the Prophet while he is alive to ask Allah to forgive you. Whether you can ask him after his death is debatable

Just read it from verse 60-70 please read and tell me your opinion. 
I felt as Allah is talking about a group of people in that area of the chapter. People who were actually walking with the prophet during a specific time. Not in general to all the people walking with the prophet/or as a message to all Muslims.  
let me know your thoughts. 

On 9/7/2021 at 10:10 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

My proof is the authentic ahadith. Where is your proof? Which verse or hadith says that everything revealed to the Prophet is in the Quran?

For the 20th time I follow the hadiths too. I’m just careful which ones to accept. It needs tonLINE up with the Quran teachings. 
for example 

praying with hands on side or crosses. We can’t debate 

Mutah marriage
we can debate 

idk what else right now. 

Calling on the imams for anything

we can debate. My stance is onlY showing respect and dua during prayer. I don’t know your complete belief on that but you haven’t provided enough evidence from the Quran that shows I NEED to do this or I will to hell. So I’m done talking about that anyway. 

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On 9/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

I have seen a Sunni scholar (Dr Zakir Naik) saying that we must identify ourselves as Muslim not Shia or Sunni and I agree with him

Salam at first , he is a wahabi speaker which his fans from wahabists calls himself a sunni scholar & in second step this vague approach identifying   "ourselves as Muslim not Shia or Sunni " is just a dirty tactic by wahabists & Salafis  for avoiding truth which their real intention from saying it it just for endorsment of enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) especially cursed Yazid & considering tragedy of Karbal as just a historical event or political battle for gaining power which people must be neutral about it & finally going under umbrella & tenet of cursed Yazid & rest of Yazids of our time against Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) especially Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & in name of following Quran & Sunnah then supporting tyrants likewise Modi & MBS & having good relation with Zionists 

Quote

In response to a question about the Battle of Karbala at an Islamic peace conference in Sion, India, Naik said that there were “differences of opinion” among the Companions of the Prophet, and that the Battle of Karbala was a “political event”. Mentioning Yazeed’s name, Naik went even further and added “May God be pleased with him”, an invocation reserved for close Companions of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny).

Most Sunni scholars and jurists, including Ibn Kathir, Ibn Taymiyya, and Ahmad bin Hanbal, have condemned Yazid and deemed it permissible to curse him.

Naik does not appear to have commented on the fiasco so far.

https://www.islamicinsights.com/news/world/zakir-naik-draws-ire-with-karbala-comments.html
 

Quote

Zakir Naik supporting Yazeed - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sE0w0OtcJ4

Yazeed - The Criminal of Karbala & the Hero of Zakir Naik

 

In a recent 10-day peace conference held at Somaiya Ground in the Sion suburb of Mumbai, Naik is alleged to said “Radiallah tala anho” (May Allah be pleased with him) after mentioning the name of Yazid, and made remarks that Karbala was a political battle.

Quote

In a recent 10-day peace conference held at Somaiya Ground in the Sion suburb of Mumbai, Naik is alleged to said “Radiallah tala anho” (May Allah be pleased with him) after mentioning the name of Yazid, and made remarks that Karbala was a political battle. Many Indian Muslims have condemned the remarks, with both Shiite and Sunni scholars threatening an agitation if Naik fails to apologize and retract his comments.

Azim Alamdar, leader of the National Muslim Front, said that Naik has put his foot in his mouth by making the unpardonable remarks.

“The problem with Dr. Naik is that he has an ego problem and considers himself to be an authority on Islamic issues, Dr. Naik many a times stretches too far, creates controversies and lands into problems,” Alamdar said.

Quote

Several Muslim leaders criticized the remarks calling them “uncalled” and said it was the same as praising terrorist organizations. Safdar Karmali, leader of the Shiite Khoja Jamaat said that Naik cheapens the martyrdom of Imam Hussain by suggesting he fought for political gain. “Dr. Naik has by his remarks hurt the sentiment of all Muslims and has turned it now into a Shiite-Sunni issue,” he said.

Maulana Mahmood Daryabadi of the Ulama Council said that although the preacher has expressed regret of having hurt a Muslim sect, he has, however, not retracted his remarks and instead tried to quote fatwas to prove he was correct. “It appears that Dr. Naik is intent on his remarks,” Daryabadi said.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/307208

https://www.fuzia.com/article_detail/283225/you-all-know-who-imam-hussain-was-waqia-e-karbala

Naik lets the cat out of the bag during the course of the interview when he says "...in recognition of Modi's efforts towards communal harmony, King Salman of Saudi Arabia gave him the country's highest civilian award"

Obviously if Naik's Saudi patrons love Modi, he has no option but to feel the same way. In fact, be it his praise for Modi or Yazid, it all stems from his need to justify tyranny and thereby provide legitimacy to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, one of the most oppressive regimes in the world. After all, the Takfiri frames that Naik uses to criticise Shias, Sufis and non-Muslims have their roots in the Saudi-Wahhabi brand of Islam.

The Prophet said, "Verily, tyrannical rulers will come after me and whoever affirms their lies and supports their oppression has nothing to do with me and I have nothing to do with him, and he will not drink with me at the fountain in Paradise." (Hadith reported by Ka'b ibn Ujrah)

And incline not to those who do oppression, or the fire will seize you; and ye have no protectors other than Allah, not shall ye be helped." (Holy Quran, Chapter 11: Verse 113)

From Yazid to Modi: Dr Zakir Naik gives clean chits to tyrants

Quote

NAIK PRAISES MODI

"As far as the present Prime Minister Narendra Modi is concerned, I have to be very honest with you, he is the first prime minister of India to have visited so many Muslim countries in a span of two years...his aim is to better the relations between India and Islamic countries. His aim is to better the relations between Muslims and Hindus, the second and third largest religions in the world. He is trying to bring communal harmony."

Modi is trying to bring communal harmony. Perhaps Dr Naik should try and preach that to the family of Mohammad Akhlaq in Dadri, or to Zakia Jafri and the family members of those who were massacred in Gulberg Society and Naroda Patiya. Or how about the parents of 12-year old Imtiyaz who was killed and hanged in Latehar by Gau Rakshaks and the children who have been blinded by pellets in Kashmir?

he has forgotten these events. It seems that in his expediency, he has chosen to ignore that these even took place.

When asked if Hindu-Muslim tensions have increased under Modi, Naik's response was a cop-out: "They have increased in some cases and decreased in some cases. I am not a politician, I am a specialist in Islam and comparative religion."

In this video, over 10 years old, Dr Naik narrates at length the suffering of Muslims during the 2002 Gujarat riots. He fails to mention Modi by name, though he blames "politicians" for the riots.

http://www.catchnews.com/pov/first-yazid-now-modi-dr-zakir-naik-stop-giving-clean-chits-to-tyrants-1469510086.html

http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=2624.0;wap2

Quote

New Delhi : When former Egyptian Grand Mufti Ali Al Gomaa couldn’t turn up to receive the award from  Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Vice-President and Prime Minister of the UAE and Ruler of Dubai for the ‘ Service of Islam ‘  Dr Zakir Naik was  called  immediately  and the conferred ‘Islamic Personality of the Year Award’ in 2013.

In 2015 ,Dr. Zakir Naik, the President of the Islamic Research Foundation was conferred  King Faisal International Prize in recognition of his outstanding ‘Services to Islam’.

In 2010 Dr Zakir Naik praised Yazid, one of the most tyrant ruler of Islamic history and said that ‘Karbala was a political episode’.

Few days ago in and Interview to India Today  Zakir Naik has  showered praise on Prime Minister Narendra Modi and evaded questions on the plight of Indian Muslims under the BJP’s rule.

“This is the biggest honour I have received in my life”, Khaleej Times quoted Dr Zakir Naik as saying while receiving the Award.

11140085_1267889196558107_2452806840428104913_n

Interestingly Saudi Arabia conferred its highest civilian honor — the King Abdulaziz Sash — on Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April 2016.

Like Yazid Modi is also considers the mastermind behind Gujarat massacre 2002, which took  the life of more than 2000,  people mostly Muslims.

Controversial Islamic preacher Zakir Naik, is facing multiple probes in India over his alleged provocative speeches.

https://muslimmirror.com/eng/from-yazid-to-modi-dr-zakir-naik-gives-clean-chits-to-tyrants/

http://www.shamstoos.ir/en/news/46695/-There-are-many-non-Muslim-figures-who-praised-and-admired-the-greatness-of-Imam-Hussein-A-S-as-they-studied-his-uprising-said-Dr-M-Rajabi-Davani-the-Master-of-Islamic-history-

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20 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first , he is a wahabi speaker which his fans from wahabists calls himself a sunni scholar & in second step this vague approach identifying   "ourselves as Muslim not Shia or Sunni " is just a dirty tactic by wahabists & Salafis  for avoiding truth which their real intention from saying it it just for endorsment of enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) especially cursed Yazid & considering tragedy of Karbal as just a historical event or political battle for gaining power which people must be neutral about it & finally going under umbrella & tenet of cursed Yazid & rest of Yazids of our time against Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) especially Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) & in name of following Quran & Sunnah then supporting tyrants likewise Modi & MBS & having good relation with Zionists

Who teaches you these things? 

They should create a whole new sect of Shias for people like you! 
you’re a disgrace to Islam. 

there is no ‘tactic’ 

You’re so far off on religion I don’t even know where or if I should even bother. Just Incase you didn’t know, I would estimate 85% of Sunnis don’t even know who Yazid is. We were not taught about the separation growing up! Wallah. 

20 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

In a recent 10-day peace conference held at Somaiya Ground in the Sion suburb of Mumbai, Naik is alleged to said “Radiallah tala anho” (May Allah be pleased with him) after mentioning the name of Yazid, and made remarks that Karbala was a political battle

He said he doesn’t want to talk about it because it is history. Correct. 

and I also agree with you he should have said may god be pleased with him. 

but the overall point from me is that it is definitely history and not our job to discuss what happened. ONLY ALLAH KNOWS and ONLY ALLAH WILL PUNISH. 
so why are you wasting your time. 

if you claim Sunnis care so much then why is this a 1 minute clip. Because Yazid is IRRELEVANT 

—————

also, Naik might be a lot of things but he is still nobody special either. We are all humans. Allah knows what’s in the hearts of people

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There is a doubt which believes that reason and love are in contrast with each other and tries to describe the movement of Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام).) as an act out of wisdom; using the romantic interpretation and also claims that the movements of Imams after imam Hussein ((عليه السلام).) became more rational! What is the response to this doubt? Generally, what kind of rationality reigned in Ashura?
These words are either from ignorance, illiteracy, political intentions or weakness of the beliefs
. Because in Imam Hussein's ((عليه السلام).) movement, reason and love were both totally dominated and we cannot claim that imam's movement was a sentimental or romantic action. The contrary concept of this claim is that the act of Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام).) _ who was the general intellect _ was not rational; which is audacity and insult toward the sacred realm of the infallible Imam. But as I said, the right mind will not accept and the Shariah will not allow that the governance over people, who should be free and enjoy the divine blessings equally, to be in hands of unholy and unrighteous people.....

....So, that movement affected and resulted perfectly. But in the years after the Sacred Defense, the lessons of Imam Hussein's ((عليه السلام).) uprising were less considered and the emotional perspective prevailed. Whereas, the one who studies Imam's uprising or mourn for him should become political, be aware of his duty by learning from his uprising and not to be indifferent toward the issues and events around him. This is the point which might be distorted from the spiritual perspective.

http://www.shamstoos.ir/en/news/46695/-There-are-many-non-Muslim-figures-who-praised-and-admired-the-greatness-of-Imam-Hussein-A-S-as-they-studied-his-uprising-said-Dr-M-Rajabi-Davani-the-Master-of-Islamic-history-

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On 9/5/2021 at 5:22 AM, Guest Reply said:

I follow Muhammad’s teachings. When I get lost in life about something I read what Muhammad used to do and that stuff comes Hadith I get it. I’m following his commands. His teachings. Taught us how to be good Muslims. Didn’t teach us to worship imams. 

Salam

“Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.”

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) continues: “The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

This sermon, and others in Nahjul Balagha show that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the most eloquent exponent of Allah’s existence, His unity (Tawhid).

So the historical evidence, the consensus of the Shia ulema and common sense are all proofs that that Shias worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Quote

Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and he who mistook Him, pointed at Him; and he who pointed at Him, admitted limitations for Him; and he who admitted limitations for Him, numbered Him.”

This sermon, and others in Nahjul Balagha show that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the most eloquent exponent of Allah’s existence, His unity (Tawhid).

As Imam Ali (عليه السلام) himself said, “Two kinds of people will be damned on my account. Those who form an exaggerated opinion about me and those who underestimate me because they hate me.” (Nahjul Balaghah, list of short sayings no.116).

Quote

In a famous tradition (hadith) of the Prophet (S), narrated by Ahlul Sunnah and Shia scholars alike, the Holy Prophet said: “O Ali, you have a resemblance to Prophet Jesus (Isa), the son of Virgin Mary whom some Jews hated so much that they slandered him and his mother Mary and whom some Christians loved so much that they placed him in a position not rightly his.”

Shias love Ali (عليه السلام) but do not, and should not, put him in a position which is not rightly his, that is, above the Prophet (S) or in place of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

So the historical evidence, the consensus of the Shia ulema and common sense are all proofs that that Shias worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Quote

Question 1: Do Shias worship Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام)?

Shias do not worship Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Shias worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). How can anyone believe that Shias worship Imam Ali (عليه السلام) when he himself tells us to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?........

 

Other followers
There are other groups, chief among them the Nuzayris, the various groups of the Ghuluww, the extremists, who have worshipped Ali, but not the Shias.

Shias take pride that Ali (عليه السلام) was not Allah but was the first male to worship Allah, with the Prophet (S); the first to bow down behind Muhammad (S), in prayer (salah), in worship of the one true Lord, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The Ghuluww, the Nuzayris and others, who take delight in their worship of Ali (عليه السلام), are not friends or allies, of the Shias. They are people who have abandoned Islam, who have traduced Ali (عليه السلام) by ascribing divinity to him. Too many Shias over the years have praised the Nuzayris and the Ali worshippers in their hymns (marthiyas) and in their religious poetry. This is wrong, un-Islamic and this is something the Prophet (S) warned against.

Here is a challenge: can any person, Sunni or Shia, Muslim or non-Muslim, identify even one occasion on which Abu Talib publicly or privately:

• rejected the concept of unity and oneness of Allah (Tawhid)?

• condemned Islam by name, rejected Islam by name and, in doing so, rejected his nephew the Prophet (S) of Islam?

• worshipped in front of an idol?

On the contrary, when Muslims pray they should thank Abu Talib, because without him, there would have been no Prophet of Islam and, by extension, no religion of Islam. There is no Muhammad (S), without Abu Talib.

https://www.al-islam.org/shia-sunni-debate-answering-50-most-common-questions-liaket-dewji-baqerali-alidina/chapter-1-imam#question-1-do-shias-worship-ali-ibn-abu-talib

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On 9/8/2021 at 2:28 PM, Guest Reply said:

but the fact that imams are mentioned in the Shias daily life more than Allah shows otherwise.

What other Muslims do is irrelevant. What is relevant is the Quran and the ahadith.

13 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Just read it from verse 60-70 please read and tell me your opinion. 
I felt as Allah is talking about a group of people in that area of the chapter. People who were actually walking with the prophet during a specific time. Not in general to all the people walking with the prophet/or as a message to all Muslims.  
let me know your thoughts. 

Allah is speaking about those who reject the Prophet and the revelations of Allah and were hypocrites (munafiqun) in a general way. If these people could ask the Prophet to pray and ask forgiveness from Allah on their behalf, then logically other people who have sinned can do the same. Allah did not say that only these people can ask the Prophet to ask forgiveness on their behalf.

13 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

you haven’t provided enough evidence from the Quran that shows I NEED to do this or I will to hell.

Is not the command of the Prophet to follow the Ahl ul-Bayt sufficient? Also, just because you do not follow the Ahl ul-Bayt, it does not guarantee that you will go to hell. Allah will judge everyone fairly.

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14 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Mutah marriage
we can debate 

 

Quote

Debate on the Legitimacy of Muta

Debate on the Quranic Verse of Muta
Some Sunnis argue that sexual intercourse is forbidden except with ones wife or a slave by reason of the verse: "Prosperous are the believers ... who guard their private parts save from their wives and what their right hands own." (23:14).
According to the Prophets wife Aisha and others: Muta is forbidden and abrogated in the Quran where God says: "who guard their private parts..."
(al-Jami li Ahkam al-Quran, by al-Qurtubi, v5, p130).

The verse mentioned as abrogating Muta was revealed in Mecca before the migration, while the verse establishing Muta was revealed after the Prophet had emigrated to Medina. But a verse which abrogates another verse must have been revealed after it, not before it. It is also well-known that the Prophet allowed the companions to practice Muta in Medina, and if Muta had already been illegalized in Mecca (before Hijra) by Quran, then the Prophet would not have allowed his companions to practice it after the migration. (Tafsir al-Mizan, by al-Tabatabai, v3, p132).

 Also inheritance is possible in the temporary marriage as long as it is made condition at the time of contract. (See Asl al-Shia wa Usuliha, by Kashif al-Ghita, p116; al-Bayan Fi Tafsir al-Quran, by al-Khoei, p219)

https://www.pasokh.org/en/Article/View/2000591/Debate-on-the-Legitimacy-of-Muta

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19 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Allah is speaking about those who reject the Prophet and the revelations of Allah and were hypocrites (munafiqun) in a general way. If these people could ask the Prophet to pray and ask forgiveness from Allah on their behalf, then logically other people who have sinned can do the same. Allah did not say that only these people can ask the Prophet to ask forgiveness on their behalf.

I did some digging before and after the verse about 20 before and after. Beautiful section in the chapter actually. 

and I think it is being started as an example but then directs it towards a specific group of hypocrites at that time. Why I say that is because this part 

seeking Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have certainly found Allah ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful.

the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, it only makes sense when he was alive and praying. Besides things that are clear in the Quran are USUALLY mentioned over 20’times. How to ask for forgiveness, it says pray to Allah. 
So now he’s talking about a group who IF they are rejecting, but choose to repent, and IF they ask you, then Allah says he will find it accepting. 

just my view. 

19 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

s not the command of the Prophet to follow the Ahl ul-Bayt sufficient? Also, just because you do not follow the Ahl ul-Bayt, it does not guarantee that you will go to hell. Allah will judge everyone fairly

I would add that to the point is back up by a hanging thread thinner than hair from the Quran. 

yes we follow the ahlul bayt. But how many imams are there? Shias can’t even agree. Why does it end at 12? The family lineage goes until now. Why are normal humans the ones in charge to decide this. Why should I trust these normal humans who narrated what the imams said. Etc etc. all this evidence all has to squeeze thru a thin hair to add up to the Quran. I feel there is SOOOOO MUCH That it just would rip the hair before the Quran accepts all this information. 

my conclusion was Muhammad was mainly speaking to the followed at that time. But since there was too many problems, that’s where all this extra information came from. 

With that said, we follow ONLY what adds up with the Quran. Not anything added by normal Human beings. 

it’s like 1000 years from now some peoples narrated sheikhs and imams from today claiming we said this. 

but how much misinformation will be sent?

if you take us back to the time a few hundred years after the prophet rhe 6 or 7th imam, imagine how many bad misguided family members/friends/neighbors that imam had? Humans are not perfect. I don’t want to follow the work of the devil. And the only 100% true word we have is the Quran. And for the last time, any hadith that lines up with the Quran I will agree with you. 

19 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

“Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.”

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) continues: “The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute

Like this is beautiful, and would make a normal Muslims heart stronger. But I don’t need to Label myself shia to accept this. That’s where you just throw away the whole understanding of Islam. 
By saying I’m Shia or Sunni means you love something more than Allah. 
because at the end of the day Allahs words over rules every thing else 

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22 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, it only makes sense when he was alive and praying. Besides things that are clear in the Quran are USUALLY mentioned over 20’times. How to ask for forgiveness, it says pray to Allah. 
So now he’s talking about a group who IF they are rejecting, but choose to repent, and IF they ask you, then Allah says he will find it accepting. 

The verse is saying that if the hypocrites (in general) at the time of the Prophet would have asked the Prophet to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf, then Allah would have forgave them. This means that it is for sure that the hypocrites at the time of the Prophet could have asked him to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. It is possible that, according to the verse, sinners in general could also be able to ask the Prophet to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. It is possible that only the hypocrites would be able to do this. It is more logical that the former is accurate, and it is backed up by ahadith.

Is it impermissible for the Prophet to ask Allah to forgive the sins of other people who are not hypocrites? No it is not impermissible for him. So why would the mere action of asking the Prophet to ask Allah to forgive them be impermissible?

22 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

yes we follow the ahlul bayt. But how many imams are there? Shias can’t even agree. Why does it end at 12? The family lineage goes until now. Why are normal humans the ones in charge to decide this. Why should I trust these normal humans who narrated what the imams said.

It is the general consensus between Shias that Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan ibn Ali and Husain ibn Ali are definitely Imams. Ithna Ashari Shias believe in 9 more Imams. Why do we believe in only 12? That is primarily based on the ahadith. There are even ahadith in Sunni books where the Prophet has said that there will be 12 Caliphs from Quraysh who will be the leaders of the Muslims. Also, Prophet Isa had 12 disciples, Prophet Musa had 12 successors, and it would make sense that Prophet Muhammad would also have 12 successors.

Normal humans do not get to decide anything. Scholars have to analyse the authenticity of each hadith. Not every hadith is trustworthy. The ahadith talking about the 12 Imams were deemed to be authentic narrated by reliable narrators.

23 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

And for the last time, any hadith that lines up with the Quran I will agree with you. 

Ok, good.

 

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1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Is it impermissible for the Prophet to ask Allah to forgive the sins of other people who are not hypocrites? No it is not impermissible for him. So why would the mere action of asking the Prophet to ask Allah to forgive them be impermissible?

It was not a teaching of the prophet, or preached by the prophet. The hypocrites did not know Allah so they asked Muhammad. 
don’t compare yourself to those people. 
 

muhammad has taught to ask Allah, and besides Allah has clearly stated to ask him for help only. Nobody else. Associate NOBODY with Allah. When it comes to forgiveness or worship. 
We. Do. Not. Need. Nobody. But. Allah. 

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

It is the general consensus between Shias that Ali ibn Abi Talib, Hasan ibn Ali and Husain ibn Ali are definitely Imams. Ithna Ashari Shias believe in 9 more Imams. Why do we believe in only 12? That is primarily based on the ahadith. There are even ahadith in Sunni books where the Prophet has said that there will be 12 Caliphs from Quraysh who will be the leaders of the Muslims. Also, Prophet Isa had 12 disciples, Prophet Musa had 12 successors, and it would make sense that Prophet Muhammad would also have 12 successors.

Normal humans do not get to decide anything. Scholars have to analyse the authenticity of each hadith. Not every hadith is trustworthy. The ahadith talking about the 12 Imams were deemed to be authentic narrated by reliable narrators

That is fine, but we need to set aside this, from ALLAH spiritually  

ALLAH doesn’t care what happened, none of this will benefit him, NOR us. 
As long as we follow what lines up with the Quran for Allahs worship then we have nothing to worry about. All these disagreements should spark a person to ask WHY. 
 

and once you ask why, you will see that half the stuff you once knew, was a sheep/follower mindset of other SHEEPS. 
 

the Sunnis who hate Shias only hate Shia because they honestly don’t know why. 
the Shias who hate Sunnis only hate them because they don’t know any better that Sunnis are just as lost with Islamic history education. 
 

the bottom line is that humans will be humans. And this is normal. 
 

but everything we discuss about this stuff is what some Muslims are PRACTICING for SPIRITUAL BENEFIT. 

which has;

separated islam (Whole point of the post) 

now, if you said hey, let’s discuss ALL these things over some coffee. Just to enjoy our Saturday night. And maybe teach each other a few new things, I would say OKAY. 

But my point of this post is too show that none of these things are spiritually important. Should lead you to calling yourself a Shia/Sunni or anything other than Muslim. 
 

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5 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

The verse is saying that if the hypocrites (in general) at the time of the Prophet would have asked the Prophet to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf, then Allah would have forgave them. This means that it is for sure that the hypocrites at the time of the Prophet could have asked him to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. It is possible that, according to the verse, sinners in general could also be able to ask the Prophet to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. It is possible that only the hypocrites would be able to do this. It is more logical that the former is accurate, and it is backed up by ahadith.

The Verse seems to be general and not just pointing at the hypocrites of the time, and seemingly there is also no forgiveness for hypocrites, even if the Prophet (saww) asked for their forgiveness, based on this Ayah:

It is all the same for them whether you ask forgiveness for them or do not ask forgiveness for them; never will Allah forgive them. Indeed, Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people. [Al-Munafiqun]

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25 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

The Verse seems to be general and not just pointing at the hypocrites of the time, and seemingly there is also no forgiveness for hypocrites, even if the Prophet (saww) asked for their forgiveness, based on this Ayah:

It is all the same for them whether you ask forgiveness for them or do not ask forgiveness for them; never will Allah forgive them. Indeed, Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people. [Al-Munafiqun]

Quran 4:64

allah is talking to a specific group of hypocrites during the prophets time that turn on him behind his back. But I do agree that most messages in the Quran are meant towards a general aspect. Can’t 100% clarify for this one. 
 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

e verse is saying that if the hypocrites (in general) at the time of the Prophet would have asked the Prophet to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf, then Allah would have forgave them. This means that it is for sure that the hypocrites at the time of the Prophet could have asked him to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. It is possible that, according to the verse, sinners in general could also be able to ask the Prophet to ask for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. It is possible that only the hypocrites would be able to do this. It is more logical that the former is accurate, and it is backed up by ahadith

We only sent messengers to be obeyed by Allah’s Will. If only those ˹hypocrites˺ came to you ˹O Prophet˺—after wronging themselves—seeking Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have certainly found Allah ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful

 

But in this specific verse, Allah is talking specifically about THOSE hypocrites, and if the Messenger and ONLY if he prayed for their forgiveness, it says allah will forgive them. 
 

Allah ye3lim. I’m not a hypocrite so ain’t gonna worry Lol

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9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Quran 4:64

allah is talking to a specific group of hypocrites during the prophets time that turn on him behind his back. But I do agree that most messages in the Quran are meant towards a general aspect. Can’t 100% clarify for this one. 

Where is your evidence that this is the tafsir of the Ayah? It certainly may be the reason of nuzool, but that does not mean it doesn't intend all those munafiqeen that hid their kufr and showed Imaan and Islam, especially the Ayah in 63:6.

9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

We only sent messengers to be obeyed by Allah’s Will. If only those ˹hypocrites˺ came to you ˹O Prophet˺—after wronging themselves—seeking Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have certainly found Allah ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful

 

But in this specific verse, Allah is talking specifically about THOSE hypocrites, and if the Messenger and ONLY if he prayed for their forgiveness, it says allah will forgive them. 
 

Allah ye3lim. I’m not a hypocrite so ain’t gonna worry Lol

I don't know if you are Shi'i or otherwise, but based on the hadiths we have, this Ayah seems to be directed generally.

We take our tafasir first and foremost from the Imams (عليه السلام), not our own hawa.

Edited by Sumerian
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On 9/11/2021 at 2:22 AM, Guest Reply said:

The hypocrites did not know Allah so they asked Muhammad.

The Prophet taught the hypocrites about Allah so they did know about Allah.

On 9/11/2021 at 2:22 AM, Guest Reply said:

muhammad has taught to ask Allah, and besides Allah has clearly stated to ask him for help only. Nobody else. Associate NOBODY with Allah. When it comes to forgiveness or worship. 
We. Do. Not. Need. Nobody. But. Allah. 

Yes, you should only seek forgiveness from Allah. By asking the Prophet to pray on your behalf for Allah's forgiveness, you are indirectly asking for Allah's forgiveness and this does not mean you are associating the Prophet with Allah.

On 9/11/2021 at 2:22 AM, Guest Reply said:

separated islam

So, what should the Shia and Sunnis do instead? Abandon the ahadith? Abandon the teachings of the A'immah?

Like I said, we do not want separation. Separation occurred due to conflicting beliefs.

On 9/11/2021 at 7:06 AM, Guest Reply said:

But in this specific verse, Allah is talking specifically about THOSE hypocrites, and if the Messenger and ONLY if he prayed for their forgiveness, it says allah will forgive them. 

The hypocrites could also have asked forgiveness from Allah directly. The verse presents an alternative to asking Allah directly but suggesting that they can ask the Prophet to pray for Allah's forgiveness on their behalf. This alternative is not a necessity. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong in asking other people to make dua to Allah on your behalf.

On 9/11/2021 at 2:22 AM, Guest Reply said:

As long as we follow what lines up with the Quran for Allahs worship then we have nothing to worry about.

Exactly, and the Quran says obey the Messenger which is why we need to obey and follow the traditions of the Prophet, which is why Shia follow the Aimmah.

Edited by Muhammad Al-Hurr
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10 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
On 9/10/2021 at 12:22 PM, Guest Reply said:

 

The Prophet taught the hypocrites about Allah so they did know about Allah

Yup because they were lucky enough to have the prophet 

 

10 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Yes, you should only seek forgiveness from Allah. By asking the Prophet to pray on your behalf for Allah's forgiveness, you are indirectly asking for Allah's forgiveness and this does not mean you are associating the Prophet with Allah.

“Oh Allah forgive me.”

”astaghferallah” 

- the prophet cannot do nothing for you!! He is not divine enough to hear you. He was a prophet and messenger of Islam. Don’t elevate his status as the Christians have done for nabi Issa. That is one of the main reasons the Quran was sent!!!!!!!

10 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

So, what should the Shia and Sunnis do instead? Abandon the ahadith? Abandon the teachings of the A'immah?

Like I said, we do not want separation. Separation occurred due to conflicting beliefs

Don’t worry about all Sunnis and Shias. You will never reach all of them. Nor will they all agree. YOU do what you think Allah wants. 
 

I personally follow the hadiths and the Quran and the imamah. Maybe not the way you do. 
but none the less, to call myself a Sunni or Shia disrespects Allah so I won’t do that. Goes against the very root of Islam you are just splitting the root. 

10 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Exactly, and the Quran says obey the Messenger which is why we need to obey and follow the traditions of the Prophet, which is why Shia follow the Aimmah

Sunnis follow the aimmah better because they don’t elevate their statuses as most Shias have done.

they are prayed apon 1.6 billion Muslims daily. 
The imams would be disappointed to know that some Shias call them in the Athan, harm there body for them, (act as if they worshipped) at their shrine.

All this COULD be an act of shirk depending on how far a person takes it. 
And promoting ANY sect of Islam promotes that you have okayed the separation, and misguidance of many Sunnis/shias

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On 9/14/2021 at 3:39 AM, Guest Reply said:

Yup because they were lucky enough to have the prophet

You are contradicting your previous statement:

On 9/11/2021 at 2:22 AM, Guest Reply said:

The hypocrites did not know Allah

 

On 9/14/2021 at 3:39 AM, Guest Reply said:

- the prophet cannot do nothing for you!! He is not divine enough to hear you. He was a prophet and messenger of Islam. Don’t elevate his status as the Christians have done for nabi Issa. That is one of the main reasons the Quran was sent!!!!!!!

I think you have misunderstood me. I am speaking about the permissibility of asking the Prophet while he is alive to ask Allah for forgiveness on behalf of a person. I never spoke about asking him after his death nor do I believe in it.

On 9/14/2021 at 3:39 AM, Guest Reply said:

I personally follow the hadiths and the Quran and the imamah. Maybe not the way you do. 
but none the less, to call myself a Sunni or Shia disrespects Allah so I won’t do that. Goes against the very root of Islam you are just splitting the root. 

How are you also not "splitting the root"? You disagree with Sunnis and Shias and follow your beliefs. Shias disagree with Sunnis and Sunnis disagree with the Shias and they follow their own beliefs.

Shia means follower. What is wrong with calling myself a follower? I am a follower (Shia) of the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt. Is it haram to claim myself as a follower of the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt? The Ahl ul-Bayt would even address their followers by calling them "followers" or "the followers" (Shia). Your arguments do not make sense.

On 9/14/2021 at 3:39 AM, Guest Reply said:

Sunnis follow the aimmah better because they don’t elevate their statuses as most Shias have done.

they are prayed apon 1.6 billion Muslims daily. 
The imams would be disappointed to know that some Shias call them in the Athan, harm there body for them, (act as if they worshipped) at their shrine.

All this COULD be an act of shirk depending on how far a person takes it. 
And promoting ANY sect of Islam promotes that you have okayed the separation, and misguidance of many Sunnis/shias

Who cares what the deviant minority believe? They are irrelevant. What matters is the Quran and ahadith of the Prophet and Ahl ul-Bayt.

Show me one of our saheeh ahadith that says to worship the A'immah, harm the body for them, etc. You will not find one. So stop looking at what some deviant mushriks believe (who do not make up the majority of Shias) and rather look at the core beliefs of Shias that are based on the Quran and authentic ahadith.

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
On 9/13/2021 at 12:39 PM, Guest Reply said:

 

How are you also not "splitting the root"? You disagree with Sunnis and Shias and follow your beliefs. Shias disagree with Sunnis and Sunnis disagree with the Shias and they follow their own beliefs.

Shia means follower. What is wrong with calling myself a follower? I am a follower (Shia) of the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt. Is it haram to claim myself as a follower of the Prophet and the Ahl ul-Bayt? The Ahl ul-Bayt would even address their followers by calling them "followers" or "the followers" (Shia). Your arguments do not make sense

We are both speaking English, I think you are just being ignorant UNINTENTIONALLY 

I’ll make it simple one last time 

- ALLAH said do not split the religion 

- which religion(since I need to be clear with you) ISLAM 

- what was Muhammad, Ali, Jesus, Moses, Abraham (they were all MUSLIMS)

- so to answer your question, I am not splitting the religion because I am follow the roots. The main point. The Solid backbone. A MUSLIM. And nothing else. 
 

- so use some common sense

- CALLING YOURSELF anything other than a MUSLIM (or even adding) even though YOU don’t consider it splitting, it still is SPLITTING. 

- you are HELPING uneducated Muslims continue to spit Islam (UNINTENTIONALLY, I know you mean good)

- so whether you convince your neighbor your ways of following ahlul bayt, or follow it his way, you BOTH should still call yourself a MUSLIM 

not Sunni Muslim, or Shia Muslim. 
 

GOD help me out here

- my beliefs follow the truth, whether I am wrong or right. Allah knows. I am trying to follow the correct way. BUT YOU DONT NEED TO LABEL YOURSELF TO FOLLOW ANYWAY AS LONG AS YOU ARE A MUSLIM

18 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:
On 9/13/2021 at 12:39 PM, Guest Reply said:

 

Who cares what the deviant minority believe? They are irrelevant. What matters is the Quran and ahadith of the Prophet and Ahl ul-Bayt.

Show me one of our saheeh ahadith that says to worship the A'immah, harm the body for them, etc. You will not find one. So stop looking at what some deviant mushriks believe (who do not make up the majority of Shias) and rather look at the core beliefs of Shias that are based on the Quran and authentic ahadith

I care? They are giving Islam a bad name. Those people are, the dumb sunnis who don’t know the imams but will talk about religion as if they are educated are, the extremists are. 
 

what matters is ALLAH. 

The Quran and the prophet and hadith and ahlul batt should teach you how to please Allah. 

please stop saying the core beliefs of being a shia is in the Quran. 

and for the final record, just claim right now because you just labeled Shias as a sect by saying that final statement. 

are Shias a group/sect of Islam or not in your opinion?

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حدَّثني أبي ؛ ومحمّد بن الحسن ، عن الحسين بن الحسن بن أبان ، عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن فضّالَة بن أيّوب ؛ وصفوان ؛ وابن أبي عُمَير جميعاً ، عن معاوية بن عمّار ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : إذا دخلت المدينة فاغتسل قبل أن تدخلها أو حين تريد أن تدخلها ثمّ تأتي قبر النَّبيّ صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم فتسلّم على رسول الله ثمّ تقوم عند الاُسطوانة المقدّمة عن جانب القبر الأيمن عند رأس القبر وأنت مستقبل القبلة ومَنْكِبُك الأيسرُ إلى جانب القبر ومَنْكِبُك الأيمن ممّا يلي المِنبر ، فإنّه موضع رأس النّبيِّ صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم وتقول : «أشْهَدُ أنْ لا إلـهَ إلاَّ اللهُ وَحْدَهُ لا شَريكَ لَهُ، وَأشْهَدُ أنَّ مُحَمَّداً عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ، وَأشْهَدُ أنَّكَ رَسُولُ اللهِ، وَأنَّكَ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللهِ، وَأشْهَدُ أنَّكَ قَدْ بَلَّغْتَ رِسالاتِ رَبِّكَ، وَنَصَحْتَ لإُمَّتِكَ، وَجاهَدْتَ في سَبيلِ اللهِ، وَعَبَدْتَ اللهَ حَتّى أتاكَ الْيَقينُ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ، وَأدَّيْتَ الَّذي عَلَيْكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ، وَأنَّكَ قَدْ رَؤُفْتَ بِالْمُؤْمِنينَ، وَغَلُظْتَ عَلَى الْكافِرينَ، فَبَلَّغَ اللهُ بِكَ أفْضَلَ شَرَفِ مَحَلِّ الْمُكَرَّمينَ، الْحَمْدُ للهِ الَّذي إسْتَنْقَذَنا بِكَ مِنَ الشِّرْكِ وَالضَّلالَةِ، اللّـهُمَّ اجْعَلْ صَلَواتِكَ، وَصَلَواتِ مَلائِكَتِكَ الْمُقَرَّبينَ، وعِبادِك الصّالحين وَأنْبِيائِكَ الْمُرْسَلينَ، وَأهْلِ السَّماواتِ وَالاَْرَضينَ؛ وَمَنْ سَبَّحَ لِرَبِّ الْعالَمينَ مِنَ الاَْوَّلينَ وَالاَْخِرينَ عَلى مُحَمَّدٍ عَبْدِكَ وَرَسُوِلِكَ وَنَبِيِّكَ وَأمينِكَ وَنَجِيِّكَ وَحَبيبِكَ وَصَفِيِّكَ وَخاصَّتِكَ وَ صَفْوَتِكَ وَخِيَرَتِكَ مِنْ خَلْقِكَ، اللّـهُمَّ وأعْطِهِ الدَّرَجَةَ و الْوَسيلَةَ مِنَ الْجَّنَةِ، وَابْعَثْهُ مَقاماً مَحْمُوداً يَغْبِطُهُ بِهِ الاَْوَّلُونَ وَالاَْخِرُونَ، اللّـهُمَّ إنَّكَ قُلْتَ: (وَلَوْ أنَّهُمْ إذْ ظَلَمُوا أنْفُسَهُمْ جاؤُكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللهَ تَوّاباً رَحيماً ) ، وَإنّي أتَيْتُ نَبيَّكَ 
مُسْتَغْفِرًا تائِباً مِنْ ذُنُوبي، وَإنّي أتَوَجَّهُ إليكَ بنَبيِّك نَبي الرَّحمةِ محمّدٍ صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم ، يا محمّدُ إنّي أتَوَجَّه إلَى اللهِ رَبّي وَرَبِّكَ [بِكَ] لِيَغْفِرَ لي ذُنُوبي» ، 

This hadith, from Kamil Al-Ziyarat, tells us that we can go to the Prophet's grave, and ask him to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to make Du'a for us to forgive us, and this is in accordance with the Verse which told us to do so.

One may make the argument that the Verse was only speaking to the munafiqeen, but this is a failed argument, as the Qur'an in other Verses made clear that there is no forgiveness for the munafiq, even if the Prophet (saww) asked Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive them. So how can Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ask the Prophet (saww) to make istighfar for them, when He Himself said there is no istighfar for them in other Verses? Nonsensical.

One may also make the claim that the Prophet (saww) is dead, so he cannot hear us. We say that the same way the salam we send to the Prophet (saww) in every salat we pray is recieved by the Prophet (saww) by way of miracle - which is something all Muslims agree happens - there is no issue with him also recieving our plea for him to make Du'a for us for forgiveness, especially when you are near his grave, such as in the above text. This is a miracle from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it isn't the work of the Prophet (saww).

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17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

- CALLING YOURSELF anything other than a MUSLIM (or even adding) even though YOU don’t consider it splitting, it still is SPLITTING

Based on what are you coming to these conclusions?

And how would naming myself something be considered splitting? Whether I call myself a Muslim or a Muslim who follows the Ahl ul-Bayt then what difference is this going to make, especially if I am going to follow the same beliefs?

17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

what matters is ALLAH. 

The Quran and the prophet and hadith and ahlul batt should teach you how to please Allah. 

please stop saying the core beliefs of being a shia is in the Quran. 

and for the final record, just claim right now because you just labeled Shias as a sect by saying that final statement. 

are Shias a group/sect of Islam or not in your opinion?

Yes what matters is Allah.

The core beliefs of being a Shia are in the Quran. Tawheed, Adalah, Nabuwwah, and Qiyamah are four pillars of shia beliefs which are explored in the Quran. Imamah is also indirectly mentioned and explored.

The followers (Shias) are a group of people who follow the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Ahl ul-Bayt. In fact the followers (Shias) were always following the Ahl ul-Bayt and their teachings as per the command of the Prophet. It is the Sunnis who divided and started following primarily the sahaba and electing their own leaders.

 

 

Verse [6:159] is linked with the previous verses such as [6:153]. For the verse [6:159] I have found this tafsir:

He will inform them of what they used to do. The previous verses were about the polytheists who divided their pure religion. This implies that they who divided their religion into parts and became sects are also the polytheists. Meanwhile, the previous verses are also applicable to the People of the Book partially, and perhaps they even involve some allusion to them. Hence, the group mentioned here includes not only the polytheists, but also the Jews and the Christians because of their common quality of dividing and disagreeing in God’s religion. This verse apparently follows the previous verses that explained God’s universal commandments, starting with prohibition of polytheism and ending with prohibition of deviating from His way [6:151-153]. Given this connection, the current verse is an application of the above theme, where it sets the Prophet apart from they who divided their religion into parts and became sects. Therefore, the use of past tense here —in divided their religion—is not meant to limit the meaning to some event in the past, but it only indicates the occurrence of this quality, whether in the past, the present or the future. Here the Prophet is separated from those who deviated in religion and divided into sects, where each sect follows a different leader. The Prophet is apart and distinct from them because he is a Messenger who calls to the word of truth and the religion of monotheism. He is a perfect example that represents Islam by his very existence, and invites others to it through his practice. Therefore, saying that you have nothing to do with them is tantamount to saying: “They are not following the religion that you propagate, and are not on the same path that you pursue. ”The meaning is: “Those who divided their religion through disagreement and disintegration into sects are not on your path which is founded on unity, solidarity and avoidance of division. Their division in religion was despite having knowledge, only out of transgression amongst themselves [2:213]. Their affair with regards to this division is solely up to their Lord. You shall not be touched by any of that. On the Day of Resurrection God will inform them of what they used to do, its reality will be unveiled to them, and they will be held hostage to it.”

Page 233, https://almizan.org/ 

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18 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I care? They are giving Islam a bad name. Those people are, the dumb sunnis who don’t know the imams but will talk about religion as if they are educated are, the extremists are. 

Yes, they do give a bad name. What I meant was why are you relating those who are deviant and the minority with the majority of Shias?

There is also no need to call anyone dumb.

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23 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

 - what was Muhammad, Ali, Jesus, Moses, Abraham (they were all MUSLIMS)

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shi’a of him (i.e., Noah)”(Qur’an 37:83)

so you are calling Abraham (عليه السلام) a Muslim but the Quran is calling him a Shi'a. Is Allah wrong? If Allah can call Abraham a shi'a, why I call myself a shi'a as well?

Oops, I did it again...:D

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And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his followers (Shia) and one from among his enemy. And the one from his followers (Shia) called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy." [28:15]

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in this verse calls those who follow Prophet Musa Shia of Prophet Musa.

Edited by Muhammad Al-Hurr
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The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Ali ibn Abi Talib (AS): "Glad tidings O Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shia (followers) will be in Paradise."

Sunni ahadith:
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p329
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani
Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22
al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

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