Who follows the Ahlulbayt? Zaydi/Twelver (Debate)

[Muslim2010]

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There is no Hadith

1. There are many hadith presented in these threads during similar discussions, but you seem to keep your eyes closed from the truth my friend then it is not our mistake, we have mentioned the evidences.

2. We both agree on first three imams including Imam Ali, Imam hassan and Imam hussain (عليه السلام). We have verses of quran in respect of love and purification for Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) and hadith from the prophet for the names of other 9 imams till Imam Al Mahdi a,s.

3.     Now i like to ask a simple question, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been designated Imam / caliph well proven by the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Where is the verse of quran that people can choose an imam instead of imams are only appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) )and against the sunna of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) )? 

I also await the hadith of the prophet that  Zaid bin Ali has been appointed as Imam by the hadith of the prophet after Imam Husain (عليه السلام). before we move further about any of other imams.

wasalam

Edited August 27, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Sabrejet]

21 hours ago, Zaidism said:

they are not chosen by the people they are the best of the Fatimids who are elected/given Bay'ah to via a Shuraa of the scholars of the Ahlulbayt

AKA chosen/elected by people.

[Ali bin Hussein]

17 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

I await the hadith of the prophet that  Zaid bin Ali has been appointed as Imam by the hadith of the prophet after Imam Husain (عليه السلام). before we move further about any of other imams.

wasalam

Brother vi answered this before. There isn't 

There is no Nas or Ismah for Imam Zaid.

This is not our claim.

You claim Nas and Ismah for all 12 of your Imams 

Please bring a hadith with multiple complete chains for this point which is aqeeda for you. 

[Muslim2010]

8 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

There is no Nas or Ismah for Imam Zaid.

Thanks for replying then it confirms that there is no sound foundation or basis of Zayidiya Imams who were  chosen the people after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

This also resulted in the shattered structure  of   so called / false concept of Zaidiyah Immamat

Sr. No. 1 & 2 of my last posts have already answered your question.

wasalam

Edited August 27, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for replying then it confirms that here is no sound foundation or basis of Zayidiya Imams who were  chosen the people after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

 

The basis is the general criteria of leadership in Qur'an and general hadith of the Prophet.

Any one who is specified beyond that needs clear proof.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Ali bin Hussein

[Ali bin Hussein]

5 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

Sr. No. 1 & 2 of my last posts have already answered your questions.

was-lam

Just post 1 hadith again with the chains please. Then we can take each hadith step by step.

 

[Muslim2010]

11 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The basis is the general criteria of leadership in Qur'an and general hadith of the Prophet.

Any one who is specified beyond that needs clear proof.

 

 Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been designated Imam / caliph well proven by the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

There is no verse of quran that people can choose an imam instead of imams are only appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) )and against the sunna of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) ).

There is no hadith of the prophet that  Zaid bin Ali has been appointed as Imam by the hadith of the prophet after Imam Husain (عليه السلام).  thus the basis of Zaidiya  immamat has been made to shatter like dust.

Thus your all false claims have been rejected as the love, purification of Ahl alabayt is defined in verses of quran, the hadiths of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for names of 12 imams presented in many similar threads confirmed our view.

wasalam

Edited August 27, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ali bin Hussein]

2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

1) Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been designated Imam / caliph well proven by the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

2) There is no verse of quran that people can choose an imam instead of imams are only appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) )and against the sunna of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) (to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) ).

3) There is the hadith of the prophet that  Zaid bin Ali has been appointed as Imam by the hadith of the prophet after Imam Husain (عليه السلام). before we move further about any of other imams.

4) Thus your all false claims have been rejected as the love, purification of Ahl alabayt is defined in verses of quran,

5) the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for names of 12 imams confirmed our view.

wasalam

1) proof for Imam Ali

2) not evidence. 

3) please provide the hadith (not sure of the point you are making.

4) This is about love of Ahlulbayt not sure of the relevance.

5) please provide Hadīth with source 

[Cool]

I don't think there is a need to discuss the subject of infallibility after the video shared by @Zaidism. Kamal Hyderi has mentioned the nass in that video. Let me quote the same along with another hadith from Imam Ali (عليه السلام):

حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عبد الرحمن المقري، قال: حدثنا أبو عمرو محمد بن جعفر المقري الجرجاني، قال،: حدثنا أبو بكر محمد بن الحسن الموصلي ببغداد، قال: حدثنا محمد ابن عاصم الطريفي، قال: حدثنا عباس بن يزيد بن الحسن الكحال مولى زيد بن علي، قال: حدثني أبي، قال: حدثني موسى بن جعفر، عن أبيه جعفر بن محمد، عن أبيه محمد بن علي، عن أبيه علي بن الحسين عليهم السلام، قال: الامام منا لا يكون إلا معصوما وليست العصمة في ظاهر الخلقة فيعرف بها ولذلك لا يكون إلا منصوصا. فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله فما معنى المعصوم؟ فقال: هو المعتصم بحبل الله (2)، وحبل الله هو القرآن لا يفترقان إلى يوم القيامة، والامام يهدي إلى القرآن والقرآن يهدي إلى الامام، وذلك قول الله عز وجل:
" إن هذا القرآن يهدي للتي هي أقوم

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1148_معاني-الأخبار-الشيخ-الصدوق/الصفحة_226

The bolded part:  He (Imam Ali bin Hussain (عليه السلام)) said: The Imam of us is only infallible. 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن إبراهيم بن عمر اليماني، عن سليم بن قيس الهلالي، عن أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه قال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى طهرنا وعصمنا وجعلنا شهداء على خلقه، وحجته في أرضه، و جعلنا مع القرآن وجعل القرآن معنا، لا نفارقه ولا يفارقنا

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1122_الكافي-الشيخ-الكليني-ج-١/الصفحة_239

The bolded part: God, Blessed and Exalted be He, has purified and protected us, and made us witnesses to His creation, and His proof in His land, and made us with the Qur’an, and made the Qur’an with us, we do not separate from Him nor separate from us.

Now back to topic please.

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) proof for Imam Ali

Do Zaidiya really follow and consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as selected and appointed iniline with the veres of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Imam / caliph /successor after him? 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Do Zaidiya really follow and consider Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as selected and appointed iniline with the veres of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Imam / caliph /successor after him? 

We consider him appointed by Prophet Muhammad as per multiple hadith, no philosophy/conjecture/ sophisticasy needed. 

We follow any hadith authentically attributed to him.

Most of our fiqh and rulings end in a chain mentioning Imam Ali

12er mostly use him as a slogan and ignore large parts of Nahjul balagah.

In fact let's have a debate who uses more hadith with Imam Ali in the chain to derive rulings ?

Edited August 27, 2021 by Ali bin Hussein

[ShiaMan14]

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There is no indication that Imam ‘Ali decreed anyone after him, what we have is the decree of the Holy Prophet (S) when it comes to Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein عليهم السلام 

So, since we both reach an agreement regarding the Imamate of these three Imams you’ll simply need to substantiate the belief for nine following Imams from the sons of Imam Hussein.

Actually I don't have too. We are in agreement about the Imamah of Ali(عليه السلام), Hasan (عليه السلام) and Hussain (عليه السلام). All other Imams are not pertinent to the debate at this time.

You made this a debate instead of a discussion. You made a very broad statement that "12ers do not follow the Ahlul-Bayt". I interpret this as 12ers do not follow a single ruling/edict/recommendation from any member of the Ahlu-Bayt including the Imams.

Given that we've agreed upon Ali(عليه السلام), Hasan (عليه السلام) and Hussain (عليه السلام) as Imams, all I have to do is prove that I follow just 1 edict from any one of them and this debate is over. Conversely, you have to prove from ALL their rulings/edicts/recommendations that 12ers don't follow any of them.

Here I go. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) asked shias to remember him when drinking water. I always say YA HUSSAIN after drinking water. Therefore I follow Imam Hussain.

Debate over?

[ShiaMan14]

@Zaidism - broad and sweeping statements are good for discussions.

If you want to debate a hypothesis, be as precise as you can be.

I recommend we close this thread and come up with a better discussion topic or a precise debate hypothesis.

Edited August 27, 2021 by ShiaMan14

[Zaydism]

Brother, it is a simple question. 

We have already made clear what our aim is, and that aim is to arrive at who are we obliged to follow in particular from the Ahlulabyt, as per the Holy Prophet’s instruction vía Hadith Thaqalayn/Ark/Stars. 

I will make it easier for you, are we obliged to follow 12 Particular Imams?

If we choose to follow some of these particular Imams are we not following the Ahlulabyt? 

If you can’t answer these questions I don’t think we can continue this discussion and I’ll go ahead and move on to demonstrate how infallibility in twelverism is an ijtihadi matter and isn’t a fundamental of creed.

[ShiaMan14]

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Brother, it is a simple question. 

We have already made clear what our aim is, and that aim is to arrive at who are we obliged to follow in particular from the Ahlulabyt, as per the Holy Prophet’s instruction vía Hadith Thaqalayn/Ark/Stars. 

I will make it easier for you, are we obliged to follow 12 Particular Imams?

If we choose to follow some of these particular Imams are we not following the Ahlulabyt? 

If you can’t answer these questions I don’t think we can continue this discussion and I’ll go ahead and move on to demonstrate how infallibility in twelverism is an ijtihadi matter and isn’t a fundamental of creed.

You made a blanket statement that 12ers don't follow the Ahlul-Bayt at all and asked to debate this.

Are we in agreement now that 12ers at least partially follow the Ahlul-Bayt?

We won't move on to another topic until you either recant that statement or admit you lost the debate meaning 12ers follow the Ahlul-Bayt (at least partially)

[Zaydism]

18 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You made a blanket statement that 12ers don't follow the Ahlul-Bayt at all and asked to debate this.

The statement was clear, I said we will debate the notion in the title: Who really follows the Ahlulbayt 

Before beginning with the discussion I made sure that we both define our understanding as to who the Ahlulbayt - which we are obliged to follow as per the Prophet - are.  

I defined my understanding, and now I am waiting for you to define yours which I understand your reluctance to do so. 

Once again, are we obliged to follow twelve particular Imams from the sons of Al-Zahra عليها السلام, and is it correct (in your theology) to say that these twelve suffice as the guides given to the Muslimeen by the Prophet (S)? 

24 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

recant that statement

What statement?

Why are you finding difficulty answering this question which is necessary to forward the discussion. 

It is similar to debating an atheist when we say God, we must first define what we mean by “God”. For there are many types of “gods” which are mistakenly assumed to be God.

A trinitarian, and Muslim both claim to believe in and or follow God, but they still need to define their understanding of who God is to them. 

Likewise there are many who claim to follow the Ahlulbayt, but such claimants have separate understandings as to who the Ahlulbayt (which we are obliged to follow) are. 

It is clear from the thread title that we’re not debating the linguistic meaning of the word, we’re debating that which relates to guidance by virtue of the word follow. 

I kindly ask you to define who the Ahlulbayt [which we are obliged to follow] are in your understanding. 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

Who really follows the Ahlulbayt 

Who really we are commanded to follow? 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

Who are the ulil amr according to Zaidiyyah whose obedience is made obligatory according to the above verse of Quran? 

Secondly according to a hadith which we both accept as sahih:

قال رسول الله -ص-: " إنِّي تاركٌ فيكم ما إنْ تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي ; أحدهما أعظم من الآخر ; كتاب الله حبلٌ ممدودٌ من السماء إلى الأرض وعترتي أهل بيتي، ولن يتفرقا حتى يردا عليَّ الحوض، فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) guaranteed that if we cling with the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and "itrati ahle bayte", we would never go astray and these two (Book & itrati ahle bayti) would never separate from each other. 

These two things i.e., the verse of Quran & the above hadith points towards the ismah, we have in our creed the "bearers of Ismah" who are the 12 Imams after Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), who are the "mukhlaseen", whose obedience is made obligatory by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), who are the "misdaq" of:

غير المغضوب عليهم ولا الضالين

These are the bearers of minniyat of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), these are the "baabe madinatul ilm" and the bearers of the knowledge of the book, the proof of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for His creation. And these are the ones from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) for whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said this:

مثلُ أهل بيتي مثل سفينة نوح من ركبها نجا ومن تخلَّف عنها غرق

So it is clear that not everyone from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is the Ulil Amr. Not everyone's (from them) obedience is made obligatory and nor this matter is left upon the ijmaa of ummah to "select" or "elect" the choosen ones of God Almighty. 

Therefore we 12er follow the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in true letter and spirit, for we know & recognize them by their names. These are the 12 leader who never ever elected or choosen by people as hujjah of Allah. Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), His Apostle & Ulil Amr (Imam of time) mentions them & introduces them to people, the way they deem appropriate. 

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، بن أبي عمير، عن الحسين بن أبي العلاء قال: قلت لأبي عبد الله عليه السلام: تكون الأرض ليس فيها إمام؟
قال: لا، قلت: يكون إمامان؟ قال: لا إلا وأحدهما صامت

To further strengthen my argument, here are few ahadith:

عن ابن عباس قال: سمعت رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يقول: معاشر المسلمين اعلموا انّ لله تعالى باباً مَن دخلها أمن من النار ومن الفزع الأكبر، فقام إليه أبو سعيد الخدري فقال: يا رسول الله إهدنا إلى هذا الباب حتّى نعرفه.

قال: هو عليّ بن أبي طالب سيّد الوصيّين، وأمير المؤمنين، وأخو رسول ربّ العالمين، وخليفته على الخلق أجمعين، معاشر الناس من أحبّ أن يستمسك بالعروة الوثقى التي لا انفصام لها فليستمسك بولاية عليّ بن أبي طالب، فإنّ ولايته ولايتي، وطاعته طاعتي، معاشر الناس من أحبّ أن يعرف الحجّة بعدي فليعرف عليّ بن أبي طالب عليه السلام، معاشر الناس من سرّه أن يتوالى بولاية الله فليتقلّد بعليّ بن أبي طالب عليه السلام فإنّه خزانة علمي، [معاشر الناس من أحبّ أن يلقى الله وهو عنه راض فليوال عدّة الأئمة].

فقام جابر بن عبد الله فقال: وما عدّة الأئمة؟ فقال: يا جابر سألتني ـ يرحمك الله ـ عن الإسلام بأجمعه، عدّتهم عدّة الشهور وهي عند الله اثني عشر شهراً في كتاب الله يوم خلق السماوات والأرض، وعدّتهم عدّة العيون التي انفجرت لموسى بن عمران عليه السلام حين ضرب بعصاه البحر فانفجرت منه اثنتا عشرة عيناً، وعدّتهم عدّة نقباء بني اسرائيل. قال الله تعالى: {ولقد أخذ الله ميثاق بني اسرائيل وبعثنا منهم اثني عشر نقيباً}، والأئمة يا جابر اثنا عشر، أوّلهم عليّ بن أبي طالب وآخرهم القائم صلوات الله عليهم أجمعين

From Ibn Abbas who said, I heard Prophet Muhammad (saww) say, "O the Muslim community, know that for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) there is a door, whoever enters it, is save from the fire and from the greatest fear."

Then Abu Saeed Al-Khudhri stood up and said, "O Messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Guide us towards this door such that we know it."

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, "He is Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام), the Master of the Guardians and Amir Al-Momineen and the brother of the Messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and His successor over all the creations."

"O People, the one who wishes that he holds on to the strong rope which does not break/separate, then he should hold on-to the Wilayah of Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام). Because His Wilayah is My Wilayah, and his obedience is My obedience."

"O People, the one who wishes that he recognizes the Hujjah (proof) after Me, then he should recognize Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام)."

"O People, the one who is pleased that he befriends the Wilayah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then he should Hold on to Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام), because He is keeper of My knowledge."

"O People, the one who wishes that he meets Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is pleased with him, Then he should believe in Wilayah of number of Imam’s (عليه السلام)."

Then Jabin bin Abdullah stood up and said, “And what is the Number of the Imam’s (عليه السلام)?”

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jabir, You asked me, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have mercy upon you. For Islam with its entirety, the number of Imam’s (عليه السلام) is the number of months and this is near (in sight of) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) twelve months in the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on the day of the creation of the skies and the earth. [9:36]

And the number of the Imam’s (عليه السلام) is the number of springs that gushed forth for Musa bin Imran (عليه السلام) when He struck the sea with his staff and gushed forth from it twelve springs. [2:60] And the number of the Imam’s (عليه السلام) is the number of chiefs of Bani Israeel. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says, "Allah did take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve chiefs among them.” [5:12]. And the Imam’s (عليه السلام) O Jabir, the first of them is Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام) and the last of them is Al-Qaim (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), blessings be upon them all.

[Source: Irshaad Al-Quloob, Vol. 2, Pg. 261]

 

النبي ( ص : ) كائن في امتي ما كان في بني اسرائيل حذو النعل بالنعل والقذة بالقذة ، كان فيهم اثنا عشر نقيبا قوله ( وبعثا منهم اثنى عشر نقيبا )

From Prophet Muhammad (saww), "Will happen in my ummah like what was in bani israeel..... And among them were twelve chiefs. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said, "And we appointed twelve chiefs among them.." [5:12]

[Source: Al-Manaqib - Ibn Shahr Ashoob, Vol. 1, Pg. 300]

عباد عن عمرو عن ابى حمزه قال سمعت على بن الحسين (ع) يقول ان الله خلق محمدا وعليا واحد عشر من ولده من نور عظمته فاقامهم اشباحا في ضياء نوره يعبدونه قبل خلق الخلق يسبحون الله ويقدسونه وهم الائمة من ولد رسول الله

Abbad bin Umroo, from Abi Hamzah who said:

I heard Ali bin Al-Husain (عليه السلام) saying, "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created Muhammad (saww) and Ali (عليه السلام) and eleven from His progeny out of the light of His greatness. He then placed them as shadows in the shine of His light where They (عليه السلام) worshiped Him before the creation of the creatures, praising Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and sanctifying Him. And They (عليه السلام) are the Imam's (عليه السلام) from the Loins of Messenger of Allah (saww).

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1113_الأصول-الستة-عشر-عدة-محدثين/الصفحة_22

Wassalam!!

Edited August 28, 2021 by Cool

[Muslim2010]

14 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Once again, are we obliged to follow twelve particular Imams from the sons of Al-Zahra عليها السلام, and is it correct (in your theology) to say that these twelve suffice as the guides given to the Muslimeen by the Prophet (S)?

The answer is YES we are obliged to follow them.

If you think otherwise then please provide to justify your reply:

1. The verse of quran that the people can choose imam instead of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) inline with verses of quran 

2.   Hadith of the prophet that Zaid bin Ali has been appointed as Imam by the hadith of the prophet after Imam Husain (عليه السلام) before we move further about  other imams.

Our answer duly substantiated by hadith of 12 Imams with names have been mentioned in many posts in similar threads like:

wasalam

Edited August 28, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ali bin Hussein]

Looking at the debate it seems

@Zaidism @Muslim2010 @Cool

Are we are supposed to follow Ahlulbayt.

And are also willing to define Ahlulbayt and bring forth evidence

 @ShiaMan14 has given a very broad linguistic definition and a sunni definition. So is not defending the Shia position of how we follow Ahlulbayt. It seems the aim is the win the debate on a linguistic technicality ? 

If we do use the broad definition then Sunni, 12er and Zaidi all follow Ahlulbayt.

But again who really follows them as commanded by the Prophet.

[Muslim2010]

12 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

If we do use the broad definition then Sunni, 12er and Zaidi all follow Ahlulbayt.

But again who really follows them as commanded by the Prophet.

Brother why you are trying to advocate three positions:

Sunnis,

Zaidiya

12vers?

Why do you not defend and bring the evidence to justify the view of Zaidiya alone as asked in above posts?

wasalam

Edited August 28, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ali bin Hussein]

35 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother why you are trying to advocate three positions:

 

I'm trying to highlight that the broad definition given by shiaman 14 does not work in a debate between zaidi and 12er. 

 

[Ali bin Hussein]

37 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

 

Why do you not defend and bring the evidence to justify the view of Zaidiya alone as asked in above posts?

wasalam

I answered one of your questions about Imam Zaid. I'm not going to answer all your questions as that's basically a disorganised debate.

You keep refusing to debate me from the beginning in a systematic way with debate conditions. .  But then expect me to answer your questions.

So if you want a true discourse where I answer all your questions then let's have a structured debate from the beginning. 

[Muslim2010]

13 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I answered one of your questions about Imam Zaid. I'm not going to answer all your questions as that's basically a disorganised debate.

You keep refusing to debate me from the beginning in a systematic way with debate conditions. .  But then expect me to answer your questions.

So if you want a true discourse where I answer all your questions then let's have a structured debate from the beginning. 

Just answer YES or NO during the discussion or debate does not justify or substantiate that your claims are true. 

The discussion requires evidences and 12vers have been providing those inline with verses of quran and sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). successfully.

However, I have not received yet any verse of quran that mentions imams can be chosen by the people (instead of appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) Nor the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to justify your claims about selection Zaidiya imams particularly about Zaid bin Ali (and those after him), thus i do not continue any discussion with Zadidya, Except that as you and Zaidism are propagating false claims /conjectures in this thread thus it require evidences from your side and the evidences have never been provided during discussion in about four similar threads.

Your  favorite strategy is to beat the drums that shia 12vers do not  have hadith about the names of 12 imams but in reality we both do agree about the names of first three imams including Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). and the rest Imams are 9 from the descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). appointed (on the same principle as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have been appointed) by the hadith of the prophet and the last one is Al Qaim ie Al-Mahdi and even sunni do believe in him (عليه السلام) and do not deny him.

There are plethora of hadith on count and names of the 12 imams mentioned many times in these threads thus our view is like solid rock foundation, while the other sects follow a cherry picking approach to choose the imams by the people to suit their own desires like from a mud in the absence of verse of quran and hadith to define them as imams.

أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّهِ كَمَن زُيِّنَ لَهُ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَاتَّبَعُوا أَهْوَاءَهُم

What! is he who has a clear argument from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work is made fairseeming: and they follow their low desires. (47:14)

فَإِن لَّمْ يَسْتَجِيبُوا لَكَ فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يَتَّبِعُونَ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۚ وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّنِ اتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ بِغَيْرِ هُدًى مِّنَ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

But if they do not answer you, then know that they only follow their low desires; and who is more erring than he who follows his low desires without any guidance from Allah? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (28:50)

wasalam

Edited August 28, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Ali bin Hussein]

34 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Just answer YES or NO during the discussion or debate does not justify or substantiate that your claims are true. 

 

We are not having a formal discussion or debate. There are no preconditions. If you want a discussion or debate I'm happy to have one.

we can do it systematically choose a topic make claim go to definitions provide evidence etc. I think it would be good between me and you as we are both active posters.

But you keep saying no.

[Muslim2010]

12 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

We are not having a formal discussion or debate. There are no preconditions. If you want a discussion or debate I'm happy to have one.

 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Just answer YES or NO during the discussion or debate does not justify or substantiate that your claims are true. 

The discussion requires evidences and 12vers have been providing those inline with verses of quran and sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). successfully.

However, I have not received yet any verse of quran that mentions imams can be chosen by the people (instead of appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) Nor the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to justify your claims about selection Zaidiya imams particularly about Zaid bin Ali (and those after him), thus i do not continue any discussion with Zadidya, Except that as you and Zaidism are propagating false claims /conjectures in this thread thus it require evidences from your side and the evidences have never been provided during discussion in about four similar threads.

Your  favorite strategy is to beat the drums that shia 12vers do not  have hadith about the names of 12 imams but in reality we both do agree about the names of first three imams including Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). and the rest Imams are 9 from the descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). appointed (on the same principle as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have been appointed) by the hadith of the prophet and the last one is Al Qaim ie Al-Mahdi and even sunni do believe in him (عليه السلام) and do not deny him.

There are plethora of hadith on count and names of the 12 imams mentioned many times in these threads thus our view is like solid rock foundation, while the other sects follow a cherry picking approach to choose the imams by the people to suit their own desires like from a mud in the absence of verse of quran and hadith to define them as imams.

أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّهِ كَمَن زُيِّنَ لَهُ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَاتَّبَعُوا أَهْوَاءَهُم

What! is he who has a clear argument from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work is made fairseeming: and they follow their low desires. (47:14)

فَإِن لَّمْ يَسْتَجِيبُوا لَكَ فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يَتَّبِعُونَ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۚ وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّنِ اتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ بِغَيْرِ هُدًى مِّنَ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

But if they do not answer you, then know that they only follow their low desires; and who is more erring than he who follows his low desires without any guidance from Allah? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (28:50)

wasalam

 

[Zaydism]

@Muslim2010

Brother I don’t understand why you find it difficult to make a thread with a particular point you’d like to address?

You’re on every thread that has the word Zaydi in It and you’re always - seemingly - seeking to sabotage any debate/discussion being had. 

Here is an opportunity to let your heart out 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072079-zaydi-twelver-debate-4/

 

[Zaydism]

In this particular thread I’m only interested in discussing with @ShiaMan14 because he insisted that I start this thread, and it is to the benefit of everyone that we have a person to person discussion without any detractors. 

Same thing for you @Cool why is it that you’re on every thread that mentions the Zaidiyyah be it a debate, discussion, or simply questions about the beliefs of the sect of the Ahlulbayt. 

Yet, you refuse to discuss one particular point, and you refuse to start a thread of your own. You seem to believe that belief in infallibility is a fundamental belief for the Imamiyah, I invite you to debate me on that point, or any other point. Is it too much to ask for some common courtesy? 

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

@Muslim2010

Brother I don’t understand why you find it difficult to make a thread with a particular point you’d like to address?

You’re on every thread that has the word Zaydi in It and you’re always - seemingly - seeking to sabotage any debate/discussion being had. 

Here is an opportunity to let your heart out 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072079-zaydi-twelver-debate-4/

 

Thanks for your reply: i like to quote my response in the following words:

The followers of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are those who are true to their words and come up with the evidences when asked to prove their words. But so far in this discussion and many other threads like this one i have not found yet any evidences of claim of Zaidiya. Rather they try to follow the saqeefians and running away from actual discussion and go towards New thread to hide  themselves as their claims have been proven false/ defeated.

This is quote an old strategy by saeefians and followers of Imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are quite aware of it.

I await the EVIDENCES as asked in my last post the link of that is given below (instead of diverting the discussion to New thread):

wasalam

Edited August 29, 2021 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You’re on every thread that has the word Zaydi in It and you’re always - seemingly - seeking to sabotage any debate/discussion being had.

The discussion requires evidences and 12vers have been providing those inline with verses of quran and sayings of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams from progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) successfully.

However, I have not received yet any verse of quran that mentions imams can be chosen by the people (instead of appointment by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) Nor the hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to justify your claims about selection of Zaidiya imams particularly about Zaid bin Ali (and those after him), thus i do not continue any discussion with Zadidya, Except that as you are propagating false claims /conjectures in this thread thus it require evidences from your side and the evidences have never been provided during discussion in about four similar threads.

Your  favorite strategy is to beat the drums that shia 12vers do not  have hadith about the names of 12 imams but in reality we both do agree about the names of first three imams including Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). and the rest Imams are 9 from the descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). appointed (on the same principle as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have been appointed) by the hadith of the prophet and the last one is Al Qaim ie Al-Mahdi and even sunni do believe in him (عليه السلام) and do not deny him.

There is plethora of hadith on count and names of the 12 imams mentioned many times in these threads thus our view is like solid rock foundation, while the other sects follow a cherry picking approach to choose the imams by the people to suit their own desires like from a mud in the absence of verse of quran and hadith to define them as imams.

أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّهِ كَمَن زُيِّنَ لَهُ سُوءُ عَمَلِهِ وَاتَّبَعُوا أَهْوَاءَهُم

What! is he who has a clear argument from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work is made fairseeming: and they follow their low desires. (47:14)

فَإِن لَّمْ يَسْتَجِيبُوا لَكَ فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يَتَّبِعُونَ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ ۚ وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّنِ اتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ بِغَيْرِ هُدًى مِّنَ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

But if they do not answer you, then know that they only follow their low desires; and who is more erring than he who follows his low desires without any guidance from Allah? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (28:50)

wasalam

Edited August 29, 2021 by Muslim2010

[ShiaMan14]

@Muslim2010 @Cool - you are welcome to join any thread on this site.

@Zaidism - in the other thread you made an absolute statement that "12ers don't follow the Ahlul-Bayt". I even asked you to clarify what you meant and you confirmed we don't follow Ahlul-Bayt. Regardless of whether we say 12 and you say 100 and we say infallible and you say not, we agree on Ali (عليه السلام), Hasan (عليه السلام) and Hussain (عليه السلام) as Ahlul-Bayt and should be followed.

Next, I used a simplest of example of how I follow Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). As far as I am concerned, I have answered you challenge by showing 12ers follow at least 1 statement from 1 Ahlul-Bayt.

I don't think you understand how a debate works. You took a position, I proved that position wrong and now you are going to keep revisiting the "real" intent of your statement. Example:

On 8/28/2021 at 12:29 AM, Zaidism said:

in the title: Who really follows the Ahlulbayt 

That is not the title. Re-read the title please.

Even though you are trying to discuss "follow" Ahlul-Bayt, you seem to be really interested in discussing 12 Imams vs more vs less and everything else under the sun other than defending your ABSOLUTE statement.

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

In this particular thread I’m only interested in discussing with @ShiaMan14 because he insisted that I start this thread, and it is to the benefit of everyone that we have a person to person discussion without any detractors. 

Did I really insist? Didn't you say you would and someone else said something and then someone else took offense and I reminded them you promised to start a debate with me? 

Here is a different way to solve your confusion - out of everyone you deem to be Ahlul-Bayt, do 12ers believe in at least one of them and follow him? Y/N

If you say "Y", then this debate is over because it negates your absolute statement that 12ers don't. If you say "N", then that doesn't work because we've already agreed on Ali, Hasan, Hussain (عليه السلام).

[ShiaMan14]

22 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

 

 @ShiaMan14 has given a very broad linguistic definition and a sunni definition. So is not defending the Shia position of how we follow Ahlulbayt. It seems the aim is the win the debate on a linguistic technicality ? 

Have I though? Ahlul-Bayt is a much broader term than just Imams. For example, didn't Hz Zainab (عليه السلام) refer to all the prisoners as "Ahlulbayt-e-Nubuwah" when admonishing Ibn Ziyad and Yazid? Or may be "progeny of the Prophet"?

Would you have followed the commands of Hz Muslim ibn Aqil (عليه السلام) in Kufa? I would like to think I would have.

When Hz Zainab (عليه السلام) asked for 3 days of mourning in Damascus, didn't the people follow her including Imam Ali bin Hussain (عليه السلام)?

We respect and follow the traditions of all the Ahlul-Bayt but obedience of the Imams is mandatory. 

While my reference may have seemed odd, there is much veracity in it including my clause of being "just". That is perfectly in line with Allah's promise to Hz Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that imamah will be in his progeny but only for the just.

If br. @Zaidism wanted to discuss Imams, then he should have been specific.

 

[ShiaMan14]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:31 PM, Zaidism said:

I will gladly demonstrate to you how you have nothing to do with the Ahlulbayt, would you like to start a new thread?

@Ali bin Hussein

@Cool

@Muslim2010

This is what I am debating.

Since br @Zaidism has already accepted that 12ers and Zaydis follow Imams Ali, Hasan, Hussain (عليه السلام), he has accepted that 12ers have "something" to do with the AhlulBayt regardless of how miniscule it may be.

End of debate? 

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Have I though? Ahlul-Bayt is a much broader term than just Imams. 

Can you give evidence that this broader term reffers to Ahlulbayt mentioned in hadith thaqlain ?

As linguistically Ahlulbayt in its broadest sense can even include any one of the house wives, servants etc. But as Shia we take a specific meaning.

[Ali bin Hussein]

Maybe specifics was lacking but it was a fair assumption in a debate between 12er and Zaidi.

Maybe you guys want to start again. With more defined debate conditions. ?

[Cool]

14 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Same thing for you @Cool why is it that you’re on every thread that mentions the Zaidiyyah be it a debate, discussion, or simply questions about the beliefs of the sect of the Ahlulbayt. 

Yet, you refuse to discuss one particular point, and you refuse to start a thread of your own.

Should I consider this an informal request to not participate here? 

I always welcomed "discussions", and what I am doing here except discussing?  I always tried to avoid "debate" because I don't want to hurt your emotions by proving you wrong. And I think I have stated this in previous threads. 

14 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You seem to believe that belief in infallibility is a fundamental belief for the Imamiyah,

It is fundamental to "me" as it is proved to me that a guide appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for guiding humanity has to be properly guided & protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

It is proved to me that the bearers of divine covenant must not be unjust therefore they must be just, mukhlas & ma'sum servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I don't ridicule or criticize anyone for not believing on infallibility. But what you have to deny the infallibility? While you believe in the hadith which mentions Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and Quran as two weighty things which will not let anyone astray and they won't separate from each other.

Either you say that Quran is fallible therefore Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) or if you accept Quran as infallible, you have no way to deny the infallibility of Ahlul Dhikr (عليه السلام).

Lastly, I apologize for disturbing your "debate".

Wassalam!!