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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate ?

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18 hours ago, Debate follower said:

If you were to draw a circle of 2000 miles radius with Qom being the centre.  You will have covered 95% of the Shia population.  Other 5% are scattered around the world and big chunk of these being the people from the big circle gone abroad!

In Comparison you can see Sunni Moslems scattered all over the Globe and having more than 50 states with overwhelming populations.  This show that they are more dynamic.

if you draw a circle of 4000 miles  or larger  radius then you will find more Christians & Hindus than Sunnis which they scattered more than Sunnis over the globe . This shows they are more active than Sunnis because of supprting of Safavids from them.:hahaha:

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9 hours ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

Salam Brother. 

Thank you for replying. I would like to address a few of your points. 

1)  Godly Society upon the divinely ordained laws will only be established when Imam Alay-hi 's-salām will come out of Occultation

Wa’alaykum Salaam brother.  Isn’t he supposed to be guiding and helping the Twelver Shia in all the spheres of life during his major occultation?  If so, why do we see much discord among the Shia Ulema?  You can’t deny it. He has been in major occultation for nearly 1100 years, with his infallible guidance, the Twelver Shias would have ‘model society’ for the mankind.  Sunnis, unlike Twelver Shias, since the destruction of the Uthmaniyya khilafah do not have unifying power so are divided into political/religious factions.
 

 

9 hours ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

2) Unlike the so called Sahih books the author of al-Kāfi never intended for it to be politicized as "infallible", he only compiled it to give sincere advice based on authentic Islamic law (regardless of the soundess of any one particular hadith), and to preserve rare hadiths and religious knowledge in an easily accessible collection for future generations to study.  Most of the Hadiths in Kutub al-Sittah are either weak or fabricated. However, they are regarded as Sahih and the most authentic books on religion after holy Quran. 

2) Unlike the so called Sahih books the author of al-Kāfi never intended for it to be politicized as "infallible", he only compiled it to give sincere advice based on authentic Islamic law (regardless of the soundess of any one particular hadith), and to preserve rare hadiths and religious knowledge in an easily accessible collection for future generations to study.  Most of the Hadiths in Kutub al-Sittah are either weak or fabricated. However, they are regarded as Sahih and the most authentic books on religion after holy Quran.

For a religious canonical book to get 31% pass is certainly very poor, given that it was written under the watch of infallible Guide.  Compared to this Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim easily score more 95% correct.  Even unbiased Shia scholars agree to this. Only Book Allah Almighty (the Blessed Qur’an) is infallible as it has Allah Almighty’s protection. 
 

9 hours ago, Guest Guest Guest said:

3) "I would say the True Islam lies within Sunni Islam" This is Contradictory to the Verse you posted above( 103 al Imran).  Isn't Sunni Islam one of the sects? 

“And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided.” 103 al Imran

Brother, allow me, to quote the following for you, (Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha I have quoted in previous post)

Quote

One day Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), drew a line in the sand for them and said, "This is Allah's path." He then drew several lines to the right and to the left and said, "These are the paths [of misguidance] on each of which is a devil inviting people to follow it." He then recited the verse: “And, [moreover], this is My path, which is straight, so follow it; and do not follow [other] ways, for you will be separated from His way. This has He instructed you that you may become righteous. (153 Al-An'am)(Hadith by Ahmed).

Quote

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Take the analogy of a river which carries 90% water and a few streams split off to the right and left carrying the remainder 10%.   It is streams that have branched out, the main river keeps flowing.

It is the main body that is in the middle it is the sects that split off.  The rope is Allah Almighty is reference to the Blessed Quran. This is the Straight Path of Allah Almighty, this WILL ALWAYS remain straight as it has Allah Almighty’s protection. 

Wasalaam

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you have obsessed  with wrong interpretation  of wahabists & westerner  colonizers  especially  British colonizers

Wa’alaykum Salaam Brother, you should come out of siege mentality.  One must not deny one’s own history when facts are there. You sound very much like D. Trump, shouting “Fake news” at anything and very thing against him. 

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It was Sunnis who have splitted from right path into multiple sects by rejection  of successorship of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after demise of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) which always people in middle path are minority people who ignore 90% of deviated people  from middle  path until majority  deviants  find the right path .

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Looks like you disagree with Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) -the Righteous Imam!
It was heartening to see that you and I agree on Sumerian’s post
:)

I will definitely take a well needed break from this very meandering thread. I won't post here whatever the temptation.

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17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Assalama Alaykum brother realizm

I had answered your query in the following post.

 

 

Can you say 'I reject the Caliphate of Abu Bakr which I consider oppression' and still be considered from amongst Ahl al sunna walk jama`a ? 

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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Looks like you disagree with Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib

Are you sure this saying is about choosing Abu Bakr over Ali ? 

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15 hours ago, Sumerian said:

- We believe that belief in him is a condition of imaan and is a Faridha just like Salat, and they don't.

I wanted to know if they had the same belief about Caliphs. 

 

15 hours ago, Sumerian said:

We believe that his existence is what keeps this planet existing, as a world without a hujjah, such as a Prophet or an Imam, cannot exist

Hujjah does not mean sustainer. And also, nowhere did I read that the day of qiyama will take place when Imam Mahdi (arts) dies. So I take it that the world can actually exist without an Imam or Prophet. 

 

16 hours ago, Sumerian said:

These are not mere differences in identity, these are core aqeeda differences on the characteristics of the Mahdi (عليه السلام).

I know, I was more speaking about overall missions, on which the brother seemed to insist. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, realizm said:

Hujjah does not mean sustainer. And also, nowhere did I read that the day of qiyama will take place when Imam Mahdi (arts) dies. So I take it that the world can actually exist without an Imam or Prophet. 

The only Sustainer is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

When he (عليه السلام) dies, the time for raj'ah will come.

The reliable hadiths are clear that the Earth cannot exist without a hujjah.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-5

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/kamal-deen/chapter-21

Edited by Sumerian
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On 9/22/2021 at 6:05 PM, Debate follower said:

Assalama alaykum brother,

I agree we can ask our parents, grandparents, other near one irrespective of age, our friends or any other person or any scholar to pray for us for our needs.  According to me, one should not ask those who passed away for their waseelah.  This is my opinion.

Wasalaam

Salaam brother,

You already provided references about using the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as waseelah. Here is another verse from the Quran:

[4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Allah is recommending asking forgiveness through the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Quran is eternal so asking the Prophet (saw ) as waseelah is also an eternal command.

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10 hours ago, realizm said:

Can you say 'I reject the Caliphate of Abu Bakr which I consider oppression' and still be considered from amongst Ahl al sunna walk jama`a ? 

Yes, because a “Sunni” or majority of the Muslims don’t need to recognize abu bakr as a caliphate in order to be a Muslim…

unlike Shia which it is in your statue of life. Which I can’t understand why when the prophet and imams themselves never told us to do so or believe so. Being a follower doesn’t mean you idolize a person. Even the followers of umar or abu bakr and followers of Ali were all Muslims. Until further people have corrupted the minds of other people making them believe unnecessary things

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam brother,

You already provided references about using the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as waseelah. Here is another verse from the Quran:

[4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Allah is recommending asking forgiveness through the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Quran is eternal so asking the Prophet (saw ) as waseelah is also an eternal command.

The Quran wasn’t referring to you. It was referring to a group of people at that time, while the prophet is alive. We’ve been thru this already. 
 

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14 hours ago, Sumerian said:

The only Sustainer is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

When he (عليه السلام) dies, the time for raj'ah will come.

The reliable hadiths are clear that the Earth cannot exist without a hujjah.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-5

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/kamal-deen/chapter-21

Yet, we never were aware of a Hujjah between Issa (عليه السلام) and Prophet (sawas). 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, realizm said:

Yet, we never were aware of a Hujjah between Issa (عليه السلام) and Prophet (sawas). 

I remember asking this exact question to Ayatullah Sayyid Fadhil Milani a few years ago, he said to me that there was always a hujjah and said to me that he could provide names if I wanted but I accepted what he said and didn't get a list of names. 

Edited by pseudonym
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3 hours ago, pseudonym said:

I remember asking this exact question to Ayatullah Sayyid Fadhil Milani a few years ago, he said to me that there was always a hujjah and said to me that he could provide names if I wanted but I accepted what he said and didn't get a list of names. 

I definitely would have asked ! 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, realizm said:

Yet, we never were aware of a Hujjah between Issa (عليه السلام) and Prophet (sawas). 

There is a difference between a Prophet and a Messenger. It is quite possible that a Prophet existed in that time period, which simply means an infallible person who recieves divine inspiration (prophecy) from the Angels, and guides people on the matters of their religion, but without a specific Message (revelation) from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to deliver, unlike a Messenger.

It is also possible that such a person wasn't apparently known among his people as a Prophet, similar to how the Imams weren't known among their people as Imams except to a select amount of individuals. There were 124,000 Prophets since humanity began, it is in fact very likely that some of them weren't known as Prophets among their people, unlike Messengers who have to be apparent to deliver their Message (revelation).

This hadith I believe answers your question well;

My father رحمه الله narrated. He said: Muhammad b. Yahya al-`Attar narrated from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Sa`d b. Abu Khalaf from Ya`qub b. Shu`ayb from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

He said: Between `Isa and Muhammad عليهما السلام there was [a period of] five hundred years, from them were two hundred and fifty years in which there was no apparent prophet or sage (`alim). I said: So how were they? He said: They were grasping the religion of `Isa عليه السلام. I said: So how were they? He said: They were believers. Then, he عليه السلام said: And the Earth does not remain except with a sage (`alim) therein.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/kamal-deen/chapter-8

Edited by Sumerian
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On 10/1/2021 at 7:17 PM, Guest Reply said:

because humans are not perfect. 

What do you think about Islam? Is it a "perfect" religion?

I hope your answer would be in affirmation because there is a verse in quran which says "this day I have perfected for you your religion"

اليوم اكملت لكم دينكم

 So do you think that God is going to handover this perfect religion to those who are imperfect? At least the one's who bring this religion and those who are appointed to guard & teach the religion (راسخون في العلم) must be perfect human beings (انسان كامل). 

So I disagree with the notion that "humans are not perfect". If there are no perfect humans, are we commanded to follow the imperfect ones? And even perfect God & perfect religion fails to produce perfect human beings? 

On 10/1/2021 at 7:17 PM, Guest Reply said:

we will never know 100% what really happened during their time. 

So we cannot get to the truth? We cannot know what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) taught and "everything" in the history is false? 

On 10/1/2021 at 7:17 PM, Guest Reply said:

that’s why it’s critical for Muslims "to use their own judgement"

ان الحكم الا لله

This is what was said by khawarij. It is truth in itself. We cannot judge on our own. We can only judge things in light of Quran & hadith. 

The question asked by me was in light of the verse:

وَالسَّابِقُونَ الْأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي تَحْتَهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ {100}

[Shakir 9:100] And (as for) the foremost, the first of the Muhajirs and the Ansars, and those who followed them in goodness, Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flOw, to abide in them for ever; that is the mighty achievement.

It appears that according to Sunni's, Caliphate was considered as "goodness" by the foremost of the Muhajirs and Ansars. They deem it necessary to have a leader which Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), na'udobillah, either forget to mention or either they have left this matter on the mutual consultation (شورى بينهم). So if they deems something necessary, why their followers are not following them in goodness? Why there is no muslim caliph? Were the sabiqoon al awwaloon wrong in deeming caliphate as necessary or are the existing present days sunni are wrong? 

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On 10/3/2021 at 6:27 AM, Guest Reply said:

Yes, because a “Sunni” or majority of the Muslims don’t need to recognize abu bakr as a caliphate in order to be a Muslim…

unlike Shia which it is in your statue of life. Which I can’t understand why when the prophet and imams themselves never told us to do so or believe so. Being a follower doesn’t mean you idolize a person. Even the followers of umar or abu bakr and followers of Ali were all Muslims. Until further people have corrupted the minds of other people making them believe unnecessary things

Ok thanks. I understand you can then make abstraction of that belief but still remain a Muslim.

Now can you go around in a mosque in Madinah, Cairo, Khartoum or Kuala Lumpur, and tell the sheikh 'Abu Bakr should not have become a Leader, the Ummah would have been better off without a leader just like no apostle of Jesus took over the affair of followers' and still considered a Sunni Muslim by that Sheikh? 

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7 hours ago, Sumerian said:

There is a difference between a Prophet and a Messenger. It is quite possible that a Prophet existed in that time period, which simply means an infallible person who recieves divine inspiration (prophecy) from the Angels, and guides people on the matters of their religion, but without a specific Message (revelation) from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to deliver, unlike a Messenger.

It is also possible that such a person wasn't apparently known among his people as a Prophet, similar to how the Imams weren't known among their people as Imams except to a select amount of individuals. There were 124,000 Prophets since humanity began, it is in fact very likely that some of them weren't known as Prophets among their people, unlike Messengers who have to be apparent to deliver their Message (revelation).

This hadith I believe answers your question well;

My father رحمه الله narrated. He said: Muhammad b. Yahya al-`Attar narrated from Ya`qub b. Yazid from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from Sa`d b. Abu Khalaf from Ya`qub b. Shu`ayb from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

He said: Between `Isa and Muhammad عليهما السلام there was [a period of] five hundred years, from them were two hundred and fifty years in which there was no apparent prophet or sage (`alim). I said: So how were they? He said: They were grasping the religion of `Isa عليه السلام. I said: So how were they? He said: They were believers. Then, he عليه السلام said: And the Earth does not remain except with a sage (`alim) therein.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/kamal-deen/chapter-8

Do we agree on the understanding of the hadith that a `alim can be hujja over a community? 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, realizm said:

Do we agree on the understanding of the hadith that a `alim can be hujja over a community? 

There is no contradiction between this hadith and the ones before it, all reliable, which say the Earth cannot be without an Imam or a Hujjah. The meaning of alim here does not simply mean simply a learned scholar or a faqih, but rather an individual appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is the result we get when we combine these hadiths.

The Imams (عليه السلام) also referred to themselves as "alims" and "ulama" in many reliable hadiths.

It is also very probably, if not certain, that Isa (عليه السلام) had a deputy (wasi), and our hadiths tend to mention Sham'un as that person. 

Once again, there is no proof that no Prophets or Proofs existed between Isa (عليه السلام) and our Prophet (saww), what is established is there was no apparent hujjah, and apparentness is not a condition of being a Prophet or a Hujjah. 

To suggest that the Earth can have a period without a Hujjah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would be to disregard all those reliable hadiths that were quoted before. This is literally a basic belief among the Imamiya concerning the Imams and Prophets.

Edited by Sumerian
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6 hours ago, Cool said:

What do you think about Islam? Is it a "perfect" religion?

I hope your answer would be in affirmation because there is a verse in quran which says "this day I have perfected for you your religion"

اليوم اكملت لكم دينكم

 So do you think that God is going to handover this perfect religion to those who are imperfect? At least the one's who bring this religion and those who are appointed to guard & teach the religion (راسخون في العلم) must be perfect human beings (انسان كامل). 

So I disagree with the notion that "humans are not perfect". If there are no perfect humans, are we commanded to follow the imperfect ones? And even perfect God & perfect religion fails to produce perfect human beings? 

Of course Islam is perfect. Which follows the humans aren’t perfect followers. Not all sheikhs at every mosque are perfect just because they are a sheikh.

it’s my 50/50 rule in life. There is no point in trying to justify somethings about humans because there are always some good some bad 

some smart some dumb 

some educated some uneducated 

some kind some mean

some stubborn some understanding 

some Sunni some Shia 

some smart Sunni some dumb Sunni 

some smart Shia some dumb Shia 

some prideful some humble 

should I go on? Are to sit here and keep talking about leaders of the past when they are mere humans? When they are not perfect? None perfect but the prophet Muhammad. Even the imams are prone to not be perfect although Allah has made them a light of truth. 
still we are to use our own judgement and realize to trust no man. 
 

some hadith are good some bad 

some hadith are true some are false 

Everything in life is 50/50

but the Quran is the only 100. We have. 
so we add up all the facts and we bring it back to the only true light of salvation we still have left. 
 

some of us agree, some of us will try to understand to agree. And that’s what we’re doing now. 

6 hours ago, Cool said:
On 10/1/2021 at 10:17 AM, Guest Reply said:

 

So we cannot get to the truth? We cannot know what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) taught and "everything" in the history is false

Add up the facts and refer to the Quran. 
if it doesn’t make sense, then it probably just doesn’t make sense !

 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

It appears that according to Sunni's, Caliphate was considered as "goodness" by the foremost of the Muhajirs and Ansars. They deem it necessary to have a leader which Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), na'udobillah, either forget to mention or either they have left this matter on the mutual consultation (شورى بينهم). So if they deems something necessary, why their followers are not following them in goodness? Why there is no muslim caliph? Were the sabiqoon al awwaloon wrong in deeming caliphate as necessary or are the existing present days sunni are wrong?

I am not a Sunni. But as a former “sunni”

since you are using the term “sunni” you have been blinded to believe that all Sunnis follow a sunni leader or are a group etc. there fore it is haram to use this word. Secondly, as a former sunni, none of those Sunni leaders represent 1.6 billion Muslims. For you to believe that is just slow I’m sorry.  
 

so when you use terms like “they” I don’t know who you are referring to, nor do I honesty care who those people are!

to answer clearly your questions,

excuse my language but I don’t give a s*** about the first Sunnis or first Shias because they should not effect our muslim life today.

5 hours ago, realizm said:

Ok thanks. I understand you can then make abstraction of that belief but still remain a Muslim.

Now can you go around in a mosque in Madinah, Cairo, Khartoum or Kuala Lumpur, and tell the sheikh 'Abu Bakr should not have become a Leader, the Ummah would have been better off without a leader just like no apostle of Jesus took over the affair of followers' and still considered a Sunni Muslim by that Sheikh?

 

I would tell tell them yes. But this is not important to Sunnis nor is it a daily practice teaching to care about those leaders because the past is not our business.
 

But do you listen to your own words? So why do you believe that Ali should be a leader of the ummah or there should be no leader at all like you said??? I’m confused about that part. 
 

and for the last part, if a sunni or shia “sheikh” ever labels a Muslim a sunni or shia they need to go study the Quran more and are not educated enough to me. So to answer I don’t care if he considers me anything 

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10 hours ago, Sumerian said:

There is no contradiction between this hadith and the ones before it, all reliable, which say the Earth cannot be without an Imam or a Hujjah. The meaning of alim here does not simply mean simply a learned scholar or a faqih, but rather an individual appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is the result we get when we combine these hadiths.

The Imams (عليه السلام) also referred to themselves as "alims" and "ulama" in many reliable hadiths.

It is also very probably, if not certain, that Isa (عليه السلام) had a deputy (wasi), and our hadiths tend to mention Sham'un as that person. 

Once again, there is no proof that no Prophets or Proofs existed between Isa (عليه السلام) and our Prophet (saww), what is established is there was no apparent hujjah, and apparentness is not a condition of being a Prophet or a Hujjah. 

To suggest that the Earth can have a period without a Hujjah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would be to disregard all those reliable hadiths that were quoted before. This is literally a basic belief among the Imamiya concerning the Imams and Prophets.

Allow me to remain skeptical, isn't it strange that Christianity -i.e the Shari`a of `Issa (عليه السلام) was not leaded any famous apostle that Nabi (sawas) would have mentioned at least once ?

Maybe that 'earth&hujja' rule took place once 'Islam' began, and ia limited to one shari`a.

Anyway, not a big issue to me. 

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17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Of course Islam is perfect. Which follows the humans aren’t perfect followers. 

Was the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a perfect human being? Were the ones for whom the verse of purification revealed, not the perfect human beings? Were the "Ulil Amr", those whose obedience is made obligatory along with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle, not the perfect human beings? 

17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

There is no point in trying to justify somethings about humans because there are always some good some bad 

Well, we are told to keep our eyes on the ones who are perfectly obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The ones on whom He has bestowed His blessings:

صراط الذين انعمت عليهم غير المغضوب عليهم و لا الضالين

The beauty of this verse is that even the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said this, Imams said this. So who are these people? 

وَاصْبِرْ نَفْسَكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَدَاةِ وَالْعَشِيِّ يُرِيدُونَ وَجْهَهُ وَلَا تَعْدُ عَيْنَاكَ عَنْهُمْ تُرِيدُ زِينَةَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَلَا تُطِعْ مَنْ أَغْفَلْنَا قَلْبَهُ عَن ذِكْرِنَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُهُ فُرُطًا

18:28 

Keep your eyes on the perfect human beings my dear. The majority of humans are unjust, kafir, ungrateful, liars, mushrik etc. So I am not accepting your estimation of 50/50 either. 

17 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

since you are using the term “sunni” you have been blinded to believe that all Sunnis follow a sunni leader or are a group etc. there fore it is haram to use this word. Secondly, as a former sunni, none of those Sunni leaders represent 1.6 billion Muslims. For you to believe that is just slow I’m sorry.  

:hahaha: How can one even discuss anything with you!!

Alright brother. I am finished with you.

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10 hours ago, realizm said:

Allow me to remain skeptical, isn't it strange that Christianity -i.e the Shari`a of `Issa (عليه السلام) was not leaded any famous apostle that Nabi (sawas) would have mentioned at least once ?

Maybe that 'earth&hujja' rule took place once 'Islam' began, and ia limited to one shari`a.

Anyway, not a big issue to me. 

1) I don't understand your first question. 

2) The rule was there since Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) stepped foot on the Earth, as the hadiths indicate.

The following is a beautiful hadith on this topic;

[The narrator] I asked Abu Ja`far عليه السلام: Was `Isa b. Maryam عليه السلام like you (i.e. a hujja) in the cradle over the people of his era? So he said: On that day, he was a prophet and a hujja of Allah, but not a messenger. Have you not heard His saying, when he said, “I am the slave of Allah, He has given me the Book and has appointed me to be a prophet” (19:30)? I said: So on that day he was the hujja of Allah over Zakariyya in that state, and he was in the cradle? So he said: In that state, `Isa was a sign to the people, and a mercy from Allah to Maryam when he spoke on her behalf. He was a prophet and a hujja over whoever heard his words in that state. Then he went silent and did not speak until he was two years of age. And Zakariyya was the hujja of Allah عزوجل over the people after `Isa went silent for two years. Then, Zakariyya died, and his son Yahya inherited the Book and wisdom whilst he was a small boy. Have you not heard His عزوجل saying, “O Yahya, take the Book with strength; and We gave him wisdom as a child” (19:12). When `Isa عليه السلام became seven years of age, he spoke by prophethood and messengership when Allah تعالى divinely inspired him, and so `Isa became the hujja over Yahya and over all people. And the Earth does not remain, O Abu Khalid, for one day without a hujja of Allah over the people from the day Allah created Adam عليه السلام and settled him on the Earth. So I said: May I be your ransom, was `Ali عليه السلام a hujja from Allah and His Messenger above this Umma during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله? So he said: Yes, on the day he (i.e. the Prophet) raised him before the people, and appointed him and called them to his wilaya and commanded them to his obedience. I said: And was obedience to `Ali عليه السلام obligatory upon the people in the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and after his passing? So he said: Yes, but he was silent and did not speak alongside the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, as the obedience to the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله was over his Umma and over `Ali عليه السلام in the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله. And the obedience of Allah and of His Messenger over all the people went to `Ali عليه السلام after the passing of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله; and `Ali عليه السلام was wise and knowledgeable. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 985) 

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-4/chapter-91

The point is someone who is divinely appointed is always on this Earth, some time, some where, whether non-apparent (silent perhaps), or apparent and loud.

Edited by Sumerian
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On 10/4/2021 at 3:50 PM, Guest Reply said:

But do you listen to your own words? So why do you believe that Ali should be a leader of the ummah or there should be no leader at all like you said??? I’m confused about that part. 

Salam because it has been ordere by Allah to prophet Muhammad (pbu) to announce him as leader of Ummah fter himself which it has happened in Qadir Khumm neverthless Sunni are dodging from acceptance of it by interpreting it in differnt ways likewise interpreting it  as announcing Imam Ali (عليه السلام) just as friend of prophet (pbu) & nothing else.

On 10/4/2021 at 3:50 PM, Guest Reply said:

it’s my 50/50 rule in life. There is no point in trying to justify somethings about humans because there are always some good some bad 

Do you apply your 50/50 rule about prophet Muhammad (pbu) too !? Because  he is a human too ,which if you apply your rule on him then how you become  sure that which one of verses of holy Quran  has been said by his 50 percent infallible part or it has been said by his other half as normal human who could be affected by Satan then says words of Satan as verse of holy Quran !? by same token then how you can say which one of his commands & actions likewise his way of praying or fasting & etc were right or wrong according to your 50/50 rule  neverthless he is not comparable with others except  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which rest of prophet's  companions have been 50/50 people as you have mentioned could be good or bad although  successor  of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) must be exactly  likewise  him which must be infallible  in all aspects or you apply 50/50 rule on prophet(pbu)   & his successor ,so therefore you wouldn't 't  be sure which saying or action from them is true or false even holy Quran or it's better that we accept  exception of infallibility  of prophet & his successors which makes us sure that Quran has been preseved from error then in similar fashion we can rely of authenticity  of traditions  likeise procedures of praying  & fasting & etc.

Quote

They said, ‘You are no other than human beings like us, and the All-beneficent has not sent down anything, and you are only lying.’ (15) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/36:15

Their apostles said, ‘Is there any doubt about Allah, the originator of the heavens and the earth?! He calls you to forgive you a part of your sins, and grants you respite until a specified time.’ They said, ‘You are nothing but humans like us who desire to bar us from what our fathers used to worship. So bring us a manifest authority.’ (10)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/14:10

But the elite of the faithless from among his people said, ‘We do not see you to be anything but a human being like ourselves, and we do not see anyone following you except those who are simpleminded riffraff from our midst. Nor do we see that you have any merit over us. Indeed, we consider you to be liars.’ (27) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/11:27

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
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They said, ‘You are no other than human beings like us, and the All-beneficent has not sent down anything, and you are only lying.’ (15) 

Yes, human being with Human Essence. But His intellect is perfected, and his heart is pure, reaching to the greatest state of the human being who do not sin and thus infallible.

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 10/5/2021 at 2:48 AM, Sumerian said:

1) I don't understand your first question. 

:salam:

Sorry, I was not precise in my phrasing. 

I meant to say that it is strange that Nabi (sawas) never mentioned one Hujja that came after Isa (عليه السلام) and before him. He could have done so in order to convince, or to show some continuity in Allah's message (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

And even weirder, that not a single of those Hujja ever claimed to be so, although he should have done so. Historical records all over the Christian world are numerous, the crowning of Charlemagne, Clovis, Roman and Byzantine Popes, all of those took place around the avent of Prophet (sawas). Yet we never read about 'Such or such claimed he was an argument of God, a tenant of the Religion'.

Only exception would be Mani. 

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11 hours ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Sorry, I was not precise in my phrasing. 

I meant to say that it is strange that Nabi (sawas) never mentioned one Hujja that came after Isa (عليه السلام) and before him. He could have done so in order to convince, or to show some continuity in Allah's message (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

And even weirder, that not a single of those Hujja ever claimed to be so, although he should have done so. Historical records all over the Christian world are numerous, the crowning of Charlemagne, Clovis, Roman and Byzantine Popes, all of those took place around the avent of Prophet (sawas). Yet we never read about 'Such or such claimed he was an argument of God, a tenant of the Religion'.

Only exception would be Mani. 

1- As has been explained before, that among them were hujjahs that weren't apparent to their communities as hujjahs, which means the people did not see them as a source of guidance and chosen people, probably only knew them regular people in the community, even though they were in fact chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so why should the Prophet (saww) mention them to a people who did not see them as hujjahs? 

There are over 124,000 Prophets, not all of them were Messengers that actually had a Revelation to deliver. It is possible that there was many communities throughout the times where a Prophet existed and no one around him even knew he was even a Prophet, or only a select few knew, similar to the situations of our Imams, or some of them were in ghayba perhaps, like the Imam (عليه السلام) of our time.

2- There are mentions in our hadith corpus of Hujjahs that existed between Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) and our Prophet (saww). One of whom is mentioned is his wasi, Sham'oon (عليه السلام). Another name that has come in our hadith corpus is a Prophet by the name of Khalid bin Sinan, and in fact he is also mentioned in Sunni hadith - although the hadith is weak - nevertheless some of our ulama such as Shaykh Al-Saduq (rah) accepted that he was a Prophet. Some of our hadiths allude to Abu Talib (عليه السلام) being among the deputies (possibly of Isa).

Once again, there are no issues here.

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8 hours ago, Sumerian said:

1- As has been explained before, that among them were hujjahs that weren't apparent to their communities as hujjahs, which means the people did not see them as a source of guidance and chosen people, probably only knew them regular people in the community, even though they were in fact chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so why should the Prophet (saww) mention them to a people who did not see them as hujjahs? 

There are over 124,000 Prophets, not all of them were Messengers that actually had a Revelation to deliver. It is possible that there was many communities throughout the times where a Prophet existed and no one around him even knew he was even a Prophet, or only a select few knew, similar to the situations of our Imams, or some of them were in ghayba perhaps, like the Imam (عليه السلام) of our time.

2- There are mentions in our hadith corpus of Hujjahs that existed between Prophet Isa (عليه السلام) and our Prophet (saww). One of whom is mentioned is his wasi, Sham'oon (عليه السلام). Another name that has come in our hadith corpus is a Prophet by the name of Khalid bin Sinan, and in fact he is also mentioned in Sunni hadith - although the hadith is weak - nevertheless some of our ulama such as Shaykh Al-Saduq (rah) accepted that he was a Prophet. Some of our hadiths allude to Abu Talib (عليه السلام) being among the deputies (possibly of Isa).

Once again, there are no issues here.

Seeing how central and crucial the concept of Hujja is in our version of Islam, and taking into consideration the hadith of "One who dies without knowing the Imam of his time".... It is not easy to accept that some of them were ghayb to the point they were unknown. 

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21 hours ago, realizm said:

Seeing how central and crucial the concept of Hujja is in our version of Islam, and taking into consideration the hadith of "One who dies without knowing the Imam of his time".... It is not easy to accept that some of them were ghayb to the point they were unknown. 

 There is a difference between not being apparent, and being unknown. The Imams (عليه السلام) were known as Imans only to a select group of people, while over 95% of the Ummah didn't even know they were Imams, to the point where their own students - in the case of the Sadiqayn (عليه السلام) - didn't even know they were Imams.

Likewise, the Messengership of our Prophet (saww) started in secret. Even the Imam of our time (عليه السلام) is known, but he is not apparent.

Just because a Hujjah isn't calling to himself to the people in a general manner, does not make him invisible.

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

 There is a difference between not being apparent, and being unknown. The Imams (عليه السلام) were known as Imans only to a select group of people, while over 95% of the Ummah didn't even know they were Imams, to the point where their own students - in the case of the Sadiqayn (عليه السلام) - didn't even know they were Imams.

Likewise, the Messengership of our Prophet (saww) started in secret. Even the Imam of our time (عليه السلام) is known, but he is not apparent.

Just because a Hujjah isn't calling to himself to the people in a general manner, does not make him invisible.

Makes sense. Yet, I find it very strange that the period between Isa and Muhammad (sawas) is such a blurry period in time with regards to religious belief. 

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

Yet, I find it very strange that the period between Isa and Muhammad (sawas) is such a blurry period in time with regards to religious belief.

We don't know the names of all prophets either, yet we have a consensus that one was sent to every nation. We are supposed to believe in all of them; this case is similar.

There is always supposed to be a Hujjatallah on Earth - it's a pretty core shia tenent.

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53 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

We don't know the names of all prophets either, yet we have a consensus that one was sent to every nation. We are supposed to believe in all of them; this case is similar.

There is always supposed to be a Hujjatallah on Earth - it's a pretty core shia tenent.

Not debating this. It's seems consensual from Qur'an that there always were Prophets for Bani Israil, until `Isa (عليه السلام). 

But now we are talking about non apparent hujjat, which implies they were not the prophets you a talking about. 

And if they were 'silent' hujjat, we can suppose they were keepers of religion from amongst a nation that had received a revelation beforehand. Otherwise their role would have been useless. 

 

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2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

We don't know the names of all prophets either, yet we have a consensus that one was sent to every nation. We are supposed to believe in all of them; this case is similar.

There is always supposed to be a Hujjatallah on Earth - it's a pretty core shia tenent.

I’m glad you said Shia tenent because as a Sunni I don’t see why the period between Issa and Muhammad was blurry as Realizm stated. 
 

are you guys seeing something other Muslims don’t? Why is your belief for a current leader of the time so important to Islam? Muhammad and Imam Ali didn’t claim these things so why are people who claim to follow them saying this?

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