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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate ?

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34 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Wa alaykum Salaam brother,  These Noble Souls (peace and blessings be upon them all) have passed away and are now Guests of Allah Almighty well rewarded for their most illustrious immaculate lives.

In the Blessed Quran, Allah Almighty clearly says that He will answer the prayers of those who pray to Him: "When My servants ask thee [O Muhammad] concerning Me, [tell them] I am indeed close: I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way" (Quran 2:186)

In another verse: "Your Lord says: 'Call on me, I will answer [your prayer]" (Quran 40:60).

So, why does have one to seek someone else to pray to Allah Almighty is beyond logic!

One should  pray to Allah Almighty for everything in their lives however big or small.

"The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so, call on him by them." (Glorious Qur'an 7:180)

Why can’t you recite the following Dua Joshan Kabeer – Pure Tawheed!  Direct line to Allah Almighty anytime any place.  This directly addresses Allah Almighty with His most Beautiful Names!

https://www.duas.org/mobile/ramadan-dua-jawshan-kabeer.html.html 

Salaam brother,

You previously accepted intercession using the Prophet's cloak and drinking cup and also that of Ibn Abbas. 

Intercession does not mean bypassing Allah. It's means a way to Allah.

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41 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam brother,

You previously accepted intercession using the Prophet's cloak and drinking cup and also that of Ibn Abbas. 

Intercession does not mean bypassing Allah. It's means a way to Allah.

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam Brother, agreed as you presented the evidence.  It was not Hz. Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him), rather his father Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him).

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

In the Blessed Quran, Allah Almighty clearly says that He will answer the prayers of those who pray to Him: "When My servants ask thee [O Muhammad] concerning Me, [tell them] I am indeed close: I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way" (Quran 2:186)

In another verse: "Your Lord says: 'Call on me, I will answer [your prayer]" (Quran 40:60).

So, why does have one to seek someone else to pray to Allah Almighty is beyond logic!

One should  pray to Allah Almighty for everything in their lives however big or small.

"The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so, call on him by them." (Glorious Qur'an 7:180)

Why can’t you recite the following Dua Joshan Kabeer – Pure Tawheed!  Direct line to Allah Almighty anytime any place.  This directly addresses Allah Almighty with His most Beautiful Names!

https://www.duas.org/mobile/ramadan-dua-jawshan-kabeer.html.html 

Brother, do you think Allah Almighty will not respond directly? Or does He prefer a ‘go-between’?

Note that Imam Ali (May Allah be please with him) is praying directly to Allah Almighty without intercession of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

Munajaat (Whispered Prayer) of Imam Ali (May Allah be please with him)

http://www.duas.org/munajat-imamali-desktop.htm

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5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam Brother, agreed as you presented the evidence.  It was not Hz. Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him), rather his father Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him).

Yes, thanks.

5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Brother, do you think Allah Almighty will not respond directly? Or does He prefer a ‘go-between’?

Note that Imam Ali (May Allah be please with him) is praying directly to Allah Almighty without intercession of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

Munajaat (Whispered Prayer) of Imam Ali (May Allah be please with him)

http://www.duas.org/munajat-imamali-desktop.htm

So that would be a different conversation, wouldn't it?

1 conversation is of wasilah being permissible or not..that's this thread.

The conversation you are wanting to have is whether wasilah is better or direct supplication to Allah is better. To me, that's a different conversation.

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Only if Shias could prove Imamate implicitly and categorically from the Blessed Qur’an, corresponding to believe in Tawheed, Prophet hood, the Books, Angels, Et cetera, Et cetera, Et cetera.

Imamate is mentioned in the Quran, clearly and explicitly and I think many brothers on shiachat have shed a light upon that.

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

you have stated, the above in ignorance then it is excusable but if are stating the above deliberately knowing it is not true then it is devious and cunning tactics to throw cheap shots at Sunnis. 

Normally you are quite fair in your arguments but here you have embarrassingly stooped too low. I hope you see this again and withdraw your baseless accusation and apologise.  Only to be fair to your own intellect.

MBS and Al Baghdadi (there are many others) are power hungry, corrupt, tyrants and are not religious leaders.

Would you find it fair if Sunnis accuse that Shias were following the shah of Iran and other corrupt to the core Shia dynasties of Iran in their religion?

Isn't there in your hadith books written to obey the ruler even if he loots you and kicks you out of your own house?

Majority of the shia population opposed the shah. And not only in words, they finally revolted and brought him down. Can it happen in Saudi Arabia? No. The reason is simple, you might be critical about them but a huge population of Sunnis are his sympathisers.

Doesn't the ahl hadees and salafis in Pakistan and around the world now supporting the Taliban? Ok, put aside MBS and let us only talk about S. Was king Salman, kings before him really just? They were all tyrants. But the majority of Ahl Sunnah were obedient to them. Also, there is a great majority of sunnis who are marching behind Recip Tayyip Erdogan. Is he righteous? Is he your Imam? My point was this only. As you don't recognize Imamate, you are compelled to accept anyone who sits on the seat of power.

Shias never consider Shah or anyone as there Imam. As Imamate amongst Shias is free of any manipulations from any side.

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You should not be complaining about this. This the same for Shias. See for yourself, Teheran international airport’s official name IMAM Khomeini International Airport!

Yes. Not complaining about this brother. This is exactly what your mazhab is. Isn't it?

Imam Khomeini is called Imam by title (as it means leader). He was the leader of Islamic revolution and in the ideology of wilayat al Faqih, there is a necessity to have a wali e faqih so that this ideology keeps moving.

So, in Shias, a fallible person can hold a small degree of leadership, just like you have leaders in subjects (Imam Bukhari, Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal) and that too is rare because in Shia system of hadith sciences and ijtihad, no book is consider authentic and to whatever extent a scholar might do research and to whatever extent a scholar might be certain about contents in his books, his works and the works done before him still remain open for research. So, in Shiism, in terms of Hadith, Fuqh, Usool etc you can have Allama, Ayatullah, Hujjatul Islam, marja etc but not Imam. 

But to a small extent we are similar in this.

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

If this concept of Imamate was fixed and locked, how come you have Shias who believe Five imams, others in seven imams and yet others in twelve imams and yet others who believe in perpetual imamate!!!!!!

By shias, I mean Imamiyah. Zaidis don't consider there Imams as infallible and Ismailis have some extreme complexities in this concept. So, 'fixed and locked' means infallibility.

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Alhamdulilah, for this is only the belief of about 10-12% of Muslims.

Okay. So, majority will decide who is correct? As if, in the history, the people of moses (عليه السلام) were in majority or people of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) or people of Nuh were in majority.

9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Brother, do you think Allah Almighty will not respond directly? Or does He prefer a ‘go-between’?

Though, this question is not for me. But if you find a brother in faith who is much more pious and religious and away from sins than you, won't you prefer to ask him to do dua for you? Not saying that you won't pray for yourself directly. But you will ask because you find him more closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then yourself. This is exactly what tawassul is. Prefer to ask from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but also ask other souls to do dua for you.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and be your guide and protector.

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20 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So that would be a different conversation, wouldn't it?

1 conversation is of wasilah being permissible or not..that's this thread.

The conversation you are wanting to have is whether wasilah is better or direct supplication to Allah is better. To me, that's a different conversation.

Assalama alaykum brother, 

Yes, I agree with you.  Though the origin of the thread was:  Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate?
Within it we two were discussing about wasilah being permissible or not … I’ll get back on this in about 2 -3 days’ time – got to read more about it.  Meantime I’ll address brother Zainuu as he has me a lot of interesting questions – of religious and political nature. It is taking more time. Wasalaam

 

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Assalama alaykum brother
 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Imamate is mentioned in the Quran, clearly and explicitly and I think many brothers on shiachat have shed a light upon that.

About Imamate as per 12er Shia Dogma is not mentioned in the Blessed Qur’an. 12er Shias only try convincing those who are already converted.  They go on a long roundabout way and with some strategic manoeuvrings to arrive at Imamate.  The route is how Hz. Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) was tested and on his success was promoted to highest rank of Imamate.  On this his he prayed for this honour to be bestowed upon his progeny – So that’s how you try arriving at concept of Imamate.

If, you were to ask me to prove the following: 1) (shahada). "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" 2) Prayers (Five per day) 3) Alms 4) Fasting (Ramadan) 5) Pilgrimage (hajj).
The Six Pillars of Faith: 1) Belief in Allah. 2) Belief in His Angels. 3) Belief in His Books. 4) Belief in His Messengers. 5) Belief in The Last Day. 6) Belief in Destiny. 
Believe me, you will find the references to these even quicker than me!

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Isn't there in your hadith books written to obey the ruler even if he loots you and kicks you out of your own house?

Indeed, we have many hadith to this effect. Just to quote couple of them.

Abdullah ibn Amr reported: We were gathered around the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, while he mentioned tribulations, saying, “If you see that people have disordered their commitments, diminished their trusts, and are as jumbled as this,” and he interlaced his fingers. I stood to come near him, and I said, “How should I act if that happens?” The Prophet said, “Stay in your house, control your tongue, accept what you know is good, reject what you know is evil, take care of your affairs specifically and abandon the affairs of the common people.”  Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4343

Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman reported: I asked, “O Messenger of Allah, we were living in an evil time and Allah brought us good in which we live now. Will there be evil after this good?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Yes.” I said, “And any good after this evil?” The Prophet said, “Yes.” I said, “And any evil after this good?” The Prophet said, “Yes.” I said, “How will it be?” The Prophet said, “Rulers after me will come who do not follow my guidance and my Sunnah. Some of their men will have the hearts of devils in a human body.” I said, “O Messenger of Allah, what should I do if I live to see that time?” The Prophet said, “You should listen and obey them, even if the ruler strikes your back and takes your wealth, even still listen and obey.” Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1847

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said ‘‘The person must obey in whatever he loves, and in whatever he hates, in ease and in hardship, in willingness and un-willingness; except if he is commanded to disobey Allah.  So, if he is commanded to disobey Allah, then he should not listen, not should he obey.’’ Sahih al-Bukhari (4/203)

You must understand hadith context in circumstances it implies:

Islam discourages Chaos Turmoil Anarchy Lawlessness as it has long term adverse effects in the society. When evil rulers have taken power, they are very ruthless and will go to any limits and lengths to maintain it.  When the public is weak, they cannot match the strength of the rulers so, there must be passive resistance. And they should pray to Allah Almighty to rid them of the evil rulers. 

Take the example of turmoil in Iraq and Syria – Foreign forces encouraged the rebellion and got involved – and hijacked the chaos and made the people dance to their evil designs. One evil tyrant is out – and see what is left after the dust has settled. Other tyrants have moved in backed the foreign forces.  The population is unsettled and scattered, and many millions are made refugees in foreign countries.  Many of these refugees in more ‘advanced’ countries have problems adjusting to the local environment, Moral and spiritual fabric of these unfortunate people is destroyed. Many of these venerable people even lose their religion. Meanwhile more corrupt people have moved in to run the country.  It becomes a total mess.  Same for Libya, Egypt to name a few.

When Muslims are organised are capable to fight the tyrants then they should.

We also have hadith like: Tariq ibn Shihab reported: A man asked the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, “What is the best jihad?” The Prophet said, “A word of truth in front of a tyrannical ruler.” 18449 Musnad Aḥmad

Imam Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, “The Fuqa’hah (Islamic Juristic Scholars) are the trustees of the Messengers as long as they did not enter or indulge in the Dunyah (materialistic matters) or follow the ruler if they do so be careful from them.” [Imam Askari]

This is the example of Khomeini; he was patient for around 20 years but was planning underground.  He only moved when everything was in place and the circumstances were right.  Initially he had to be very ruthless to clear the remnants of Shah’s rule.

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Majority of the shia population opposed the shah. And not only in words, they finally revolted and brought him down. Can it happen in Saudi Arabia? No. The reason is simple, you might be critical about them but a huge population of Sunnis are his sympathisers.

Yes, majority opposed the shah, but he had support sizeable minority who were happy with his system. The commitment and bravery and sacrifices of the Iranian revolutionaries overcame all the internal and external forces.
How wrong you are about Saudi Arabia. It is a vicious police state completely supported and maintained by the ‘West’.  You’ll see a lot of ‘happy’ faces in the cities of youngsters enjoying the ‘western’ freedom. This in only on the surface in the cities. There is a lot of discontent building up but has not come up to boiling point. Give 5 years more and you will see the results. In sha Allah.  A lot of prominent scholars are locked the bars and being tortured.  You can google for this.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/3/10/analysis-there-is-a-perfect-storm-brewing-in-saudi-arabia

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/03/08/heavy-lies-the-crown-the-survival-of-arab-monarchies-10-years-after-the-arab-spring/

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Doesn't the ahl hadees and salafis in Pakistan and around the world now supporting the Taliban? Ok, put aside MBS and let us only talk about S. Was king Salman, kings before him really just? They were all tyrants. But the majority of Ahl Sunnah were obedient to them.

Weren’t all Shias around the world supporting the Iranian revolution?  All the Arab rulers are tyrants and were imposed on positions of power by the victors of the First World War.  This is common knowledge.
Overwhelming majority of Ahlul Sunnah are not obedient to them as such but are apolitical.  Just like the Shias in Azerbaijan.  70% Shia population, even with Shia revolution next door they are just getting on with their lives.  And the government is vicious.

 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Also, there is a great majority of sunnis who are marching behind Recip Tayyip Erdogan. Is he righteous? Is he your Imam?

Recip Tayyip Erdogan is comparatively thousand times better than all the current Sunni leaders. Turkey before he came to power was called ‘Sick man of Europe’. He is wisely moving Turkey towards Islam.  There is still 70 years of Kamalism pollution still there – which was very anti-Islamic and was/is supported by Zionists.
You asked me if he was my Imam!  NO!

Sunnis follow the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Hence my Imam (the one I follow to best of my abilities) would be the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  From there on I follow the relevant Imams to learn how to follow the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) since they have acquired the knowledge.

Sunnis do not follow political leaders for their religion. There are numerous hadith on status of genuine scholars – The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

The Scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets.” [Abu Dawud and Bukhari]. Therefore, Sunnis follow genuine scholars for their spiritual and moral guidance and not the political leaders.
I think it is same for Shias – You have your political leaders and marajahs for spiritual guidance.

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18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

My point was this only. As you don't recognize Imamate, you are compelled to accept anyone who sits on the seat of power.

In practical world your Imamate was not working.  After the Major Ghaybah there was no ‘day to day working relationship’ with the Imam. To fill this awkward inconsistency, it was necessary for the Shia clergy to create status of Wilayat al Faqih – This is big controversy within Shia.  Iran being the BIG BROTHER within Shia world carries the most sway thus has pushed this for everyone to accept it and has suppressed the opposition to it with its overwhelming clout in the Shia world.   This is the truth, however much you deny it. Many prominent ayatullahs do not agree with Iranian version of Iranian Wilayat al Faqih.
 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Shias never consider Shah or anyone as there Imam. As Imamate amongst Shias is free of any manipulations from any side.

There may be not issue about the 12th Imam. For certain backstage secret hands will show their definite manipulations when new Wilayat al Fiqih will be elected – Every Howzah, and ongoing rivalry between Qom and Najaf will try to get their man in top notch position in the Shia world - this is a natural human trait.
 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Imam Khomeini is called Imam by title (as it means leader). He was the leader of Islamic revolution and in the ideology of wilayat al Faqih, there is a necessity to have a wali e faqih so that this ideology keeps moving.

Isn’t Imamate the highest rank in Shia Islam? Hz. Ibrahim (peace be upon him) was the first one to be bestowed with this title of being IMAM, right? From then this title was bestowed upon Shias Imams from Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) to the 12th Imam.  So, how come such lofty honorific title is bestowed upon Khomeini?   You don’t consider him to infallible.
In Sunni Islam the word IMAM does not carry any special meaning. It can be applied to the person leading the prayers in the at the home or local mosque and to the leading scholars.

 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

By shias, I mean Imamiyah. Zaidis don't consider there Imams as infallible and Ismailis have some extreme complexities in this concept. So, 'fixed and locked' means infallibility.

Sunnis believe in Absolute infallibility with Allah Almighty Alone! The Blessed Prophets (peace be upon them all) have infallibility in delivering the Divine Message completely with nothing added and nothing held back. All the rest of humans are fallible without any exception. Of course, from them are many who hold high status of highest order but still fallible. As the famous saying “To err is Human”.
 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Okay. So, majority will decide who is correct? As if, in the history, the people of moses (عليه السلام) were in majority or people of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) or people of Nuh were in majority.

So, would you buy this argument that Imamis being majority are most likely to be wrong because they the majority and may be Ismailis are most probably right because they are a minority!

I am referring to majority of Believers!  Unless you take out the Sunnis due to their disbelief in your concept of Imamate.  The Blessed Qur’an always refers to majority of MANKIND will not believe.  The Qur’an never says that Majority of Believers will be wrong.
 

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Though, this question is not for me. But if you find a brother in faith who is much more pious and religious and away from sins than you, won't you prefer to ask him to do dua for you? Not saying that you won't pray for yourself directly. But you will ask because you find him more closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then yourself. This is exactly what tawassul is. Prefer to ask from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but also ask other souls to do dua for you.

Brother, I appreciate your input too. This place is not only for debating and sectarian rivalling but for learning from others too.  I tried to read more about Wasilah as I must respond to brother ShiaMan14. It is very deep subject. I am trying to read arguments from both sides.  Brother I am just an ordinary person, in the mosques I find other people who are so much better than me.  I KNOW they are nearer to Allah Almighty than I.  

But I always feel even though I may be far from Allah Almighty; He is Close to me, very close.  This is my comfort zone. 

AND IF My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me: let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way 2:186

“And indeed, We have created man, and We know whatever thoughts his inner self develops, and We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein.” (Quran 50:16).

Of course, I ask my dear ones, my good friends to pray for me. You always pray for me when greet me with ‘Assalama alaykum’ – You are making dua for me to have peace and safety!  I have never sought any BIG personality or ever visited any Shrine to seek blessings. Never. I am not being haughty; I feel very uncomfortable doing it.  The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has taught us so many duas, and all are addressing Allah Almighty directly.

Abu al- ‘Abbas ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abbas(رضي الله عنه) reports: “One day I was riding (a horse/camel) behind the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, when he said, ‘Young man, I will teach you some words. Be mindful of God, and He will take care of you. Be mindful of Him, and you shall find Him at your side. If you ask, ask of God. If you need help, seek it from God. Know that if the whole world were to gather together in order to help you, they would not be able to help you except if God had written so. And if the whole world were to gather together in order to harm you, they would not harm you except if God had written so. The pens have been lifted, and the pages are dry.’” Related by Tirmidhi

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and be your guide and protector. 

Jazakallah khayrunn for such sincere dua.

May Allah Almighty bless you and all your dear ones with the best in this World with long healthy lives and the best in the Hereafter – may Allah Almighty accept this from very humble me.

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On 9/21/2021 at 3:17 AM, Debate follower said:

Imam Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, “The Fuqa’hah (Islamic Juristic Scholars) are the trustees of the Messengers as long as they did not enter or indulge in the Dunyah (materialistic matters) or follow the ruler if they do so be careful from them.” [Imam Askari]

This is the example of Khomeini; he was patient for around 20 years but was planning underground.  He only moved when everything was in place and the circumstances were right.  Initially he had to be very ruthless to clear the remnants of Shah’s rule.

You completely  have misunderstood hadith because in shia Islam rulling over muslim by "The Fuqa’hah (Islamic Juristic Scholars)" as " trustees of the Messengers" especially  Imam Mahdi (aj) is their main duty neither  indulging  in Dunya (materialistic matters) nor following  the ruler but on the other hand they must rule over people even kings in order of establishing  a government  & country for supporting  Imam Mahdi (aj) after his reappearance .

Imam  Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) has tried many times to advise Shah in hope of fixing Shah's errors since 1964 after legalization  of "Capitulation Law" & his other errors which has been against  sovereignty  of Iran & against  Islamic  teachings until fall of Shah in 1978 because  of anti Islamic & anti patriotic  actions of Shah which during this time Imam Khomeini  (رضي الله عنه) always has warned him about Shah's actions & asked him kindly to fix his errors nevertheless  Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) during this time has faced many difficulties  likewise exile from Iran & martyrdom  of his grandson  due to poisoning by agents of Savak in cooperation with Baathi's  especially  cursed Sadam ,so therefore , he has not planning silently for 20 years but on the other hand he has been active during  this period for fixing Shah's errors which after returning to Iran after running away of Shah & falling of Pahlavi  dynasty then Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) has fixed errors of Shah by undoing his anti patriotic  & anti Islamic  actions of Shah.

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Imam Khomeini who was concerned for the presence of American, British and Israeli advisors in Iran and their harmful performance became informed of the details of Capitulation right for American militaries some few days after its enactment by National Consultative Assembly.

 

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Being informed of Imam’s decision, the regime sent a messenger to Qom to dissuade him, but Imam Khomeini refused to visit him and so his son Haj Agha Mostafa met the messenger.

 In this meeting the messenger warned, "… The US has employed all its power to gain prestige among Iranian people. It spends money and is in a position that any attack on him is far more dangerous than attack to the Shah itself. If Ayatollah Khomeini is preparing to deliver a speech in these days, he should be very careful not to say anything irritating the US government which will be very dangerous and responded by harsh reaction of them. Anything else, even blaming the Shah, won’t be so banned.” Regardless of these threats, Imam Khomeini declared that he would deliver a speech on October 26, concurrent with the birthday anniversary of Hazrat Zahra (peace be upon her).

 

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In that morning, Imam Khomeini who seemed very infuriated delivered his epochal speech in the gathering of thousands of people gathering together in his house and surrounding alleys. Launching his speech in the name of God, Imam continued with ‘To God We Belong and To Him We Return’ that showed the depth of the great disaster imposed on Islam and the Muslims.

He also expressed his heart sorrow for this disaster and declared public mourning: Iran has no Eid anymore. They turned our Eid into mourning… and illuminated. They made mourning and danced collectively… They sold the independence of the country and still illuminated and celebrated.

If I were them, I would ban these illuminations. I would say to hoist black flag atop of bazaars and houses; hoist black veil.” Imam Khomeini’s revealing and stirring speech was accompanied by people’s yammer.

After this introduction, explaining the details of Capitulation bill enacted by the Majlis, Imam illustrated its socio-political implications with some examples: "If an American servant or an American cook assassinates your Marja in the bazaar or knock the stuffing out of him, Iranian police is not allowed to stop him, Iranian courts do not deserve to judge him… the case must be referred to the US and be decided there by American lords… The [Iranian] government flagrantly favored this heinous plan. Iranian nation was bestowed an inferior position than American dogs… Why?

 Because to win American favor to grant them loan.” Imam Khomeini blamed the Majlis and government for this shame and scandal and emphasized that if the clergies were in the Majlis they wouldn’t allow the US, Britain and Israel to control the fate of the country and impose their wills on the nation and would prevent an American puppet, the Prime Minister, from committing such a fault.

Then, he modestly warned the Army, politicians, merchants, Marjas, clergies and scholars of the risks of this disgraceful law and addressing the Shah reiterated, "What is the benefit of American advisors and militaries for you? If the country is wholly controlled by the US, then why so much jangle? Why so much speak of progress? If these advisors are your servants, then why bestow on them a position higher than the lords? If they are servants, treat them as deserves the servants.” Then, explaining the misery of people, foreign debts of the country and its increasing dependence on the United States, he cried, "God knows one who does not cry is sinful; God knows one who does not cry has committed a Deadly Sin.”

In addition, he called on the clergies of Qom and Najaf, Muslim nations, Islamic leaders and the Presidents of Muslim countries to come to Iranian nation’s assistance and also severely condemned all Western and Eastern powers, at the head of them the US, for favoring and backing the Shah. "America is worse than Britain, Britain is worse than America and the Soviet Union is worse than both of them. Each one is worse than the other; each one is more abominable than the other. But today we are concerned with the malicious America.

Let the American President know that in the eyes of the Iranian nation, he is the most repulsive member of the human race today for all the injustice he has imposed on our Muslim nation… today, all our misfortunes originate from the US, originated from Israel. Israel also affiliates to the US; these representatives also affiliate to the US; they are all American puppets. If not, why don’t they stand against the US?” Imam reiterated that the representatives of the two Iranian Majlises (National Consultative Assembly and the Senate) were not the real representatives and even if they were so previously, their approval of the bill or their silence in face of it had discredited them for people. At the end, Imam addressed the audience and clergies and said, "You are duty bound to inform people of this plot and object the representatives of the Majlis.” The speech was concluded with Imam’s prayer and people’s Amen.

In addition to this speech, Imam Khomeini issued a declaration revealing and condemning the disgraceful action of the Majlis and government in enactment of Capitulation bill, calling it "admission of Iran’s being colonized”, "A document pointing to slavery of Iranian nation” and "The most heinous and derogatory false legislation of villainous governments”. He also wrote, "Now, I declare that this infamous legislation of the two Majlises is contrary to Islam and Quran and so invalid. It is contrary to the vote of the Muslim nation. the representatives of the two Majlises are not the representatives of people but the representatives of the bayonet.

Their vote is worthless in the face of Islam, Quran and people and if they are going to abuse this filthy vote, people will punish them.” Imam once again introduced the US which had supported Israel to displace Muslim Palestinians, dominated Iranian government and Majlis, disdained and restricted the clergies, and propelled the merchants and farmers towards poverty and bankruptcy with its so called White Revolution as the root cause of misfortune of Iranian nation and all Muslims of the world. Then he recommended people, "It’s on Iranian nation to break the chains. It’s on Iranian army to prevent such disgraceful proceedings in Iran… overthrow this government and expel the representatives voting aye to this bill from the Majlis… It’s on clergies and scholars of the seminaries to call on all clergies of the world to break their silence… It’s on academic youths to fervently oppose this flagrant plan… It’s on Iranian students abroad not to remain silent in face of this vital issue that has endangered the fame and honor of our nation and religion.”

 Imam’s speech and declaration provoked different reflections, but it didn’t immune from the regime’s reaction. After reviewing the plan for some days, it was decided, directly ordered by the US, that Imam Khomeini be sent into exile.

https://www.jamaran.news/Section-news-2/1478672-imam-khomeini-speech-about-capitulation-law

On 9/21/2021 at 3:28 AM, Debate follower said:

In practical world your Imamate was not working.  After the Major Ghaybah there was no ‘day to day working relationship’ with the Imam. To fill this awkward inconsistency, it was necessary for the Shia clergy to create status of Wilayat al Faqih – This is big controversy within Shia.  Iran being the BIG BROTHER within Shia world carries the most sway thus has pushed this for everyone to accept it and has suppressed the opposition to it with its overwhelming clout in the Shia world.   This is the truth, however much you deny it. Many prominent ayatullahs do not agree with Iranian version of Iranian Wilayat al Faqih.

You have repeated this nonsense many times to deny Imamate in shia Islam without any evidence  just based on Wahabi /Salafi propaganda  of KSA & it's allies against  Shias especially  Iran & it's people  for denying   " Wilayat al Faqih " by calling it as creation of Shia clergy but in contrast it's just following  order of infallible  Imams  especially  Imam Mahdi (aj) during his occultation  by his order nevertheless all of Shia scholars have agreement  about Wilayat al Faqih  but on the other hand they have different  opinions  about level of implying it on muslim community  based on multiple factors likewise demographics & trends in each era but there is not something as Iranian version or Iraqi version & etc & forcing it to Shia world in contrast to batalant  lies of Wahabists  & Salafists by support  KSA & it's allies as puppets of America  & Israel.

 

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On 9/19/2021 at 10:18 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

So that would be a different conversation, wouldn't it?

1 conversation is of wasilah being permissible or not..that's this thread.

The conversation you are wanting to have is whether wasilah is better or direct supplication to Allah is better. To me, that's a different conversation.

Quote

 

O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful 35 al-Maida

‏يَٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱبْتَغُوٓا۟ إِلَيْهِ ٱلْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَهِدُوا۟ فِى سَبِيلِهِۦ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

yāayyuhā alladhīna āmanū ittaqū l-laha wa-ib'taghū ilayhi l-wasīlata wajāhidū fī sabīlihi laʿallakum tuf'liḥūn

 

Assalama alaykum brother, Thanks for your patience. 

I spent quite some time reading about Waseelah from varying sources.  I found ‘people’ interpreting it from their own understanding and Inclination.

Waseelah means ‘the means of approach or means of getting near to’.

Now, how does one get nearer Allah Almighty?  Is it to go to the resting places of great pious souls who in their lifetime earned great honours in Service of Allah Almighty and Islam, and beseech them for their recommendations to Allah Almighty to favourably Grant our supplications?

Or is that we should perform our deeds/actions as commanded by Allah Almighty to earn his Pleasure? 

The following ayahs clearly ask others besides Allah Almighty; they have no power to grant our supplications.

Say, "Call those whom you claimed from besides Him, [then] not they have power (to) remove the misfortunes from you and not (to) transfer (it)."  56 Al-Isra’

Those whom they call, seek to their Lord the means of access, which of them (is) nearest, and they hope (for) His mercy and fear His punishment. Indeed, (the) punishment (of) your Lord is (ever) feared. 57 Al-Isra’

I found the following where supplication through the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).
Note: The supplication is made directly to Allah Almighty!

`Uthman bin Hunaif narrated that a blind man came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and said:

Supplicate to Allah to heal me.” He (ﷺ) said: “If you wish I will supplicate for you, and if you wish, you can be patient, for that is better for you.” He said: “Then supplicate to Him.” He said: “So he ordered him to perform Wudu’ and to make his Wudu’ complete, and to supplicate with this supplication: ‘O Allah, I ask You and turn towards You by Your Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ), the Prophet of Mercy. Indeed, I have turned to my Lord, by means of You, concerning this need of mine, so that it can be resolved, so O Allah so accept his intercession for me (Allāhumma innī as’aluka wa atawajjahu ilaika binabiyyka Muḥammadin nabi-ir-raḥmati, innī tawajjahtu bika ila rabbī fī ḥājatī hādhihī lituqḍā lī, Allāhumma fashaffi`hu fīyya).’” Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3578

The following where the Blessed Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) blessed hair was used to treat people.

Narrated IsraiI: `Uthman bin `Abdullah bin Mauhab said, "My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama." Isra'il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. `Uthman added, "If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it,” - Sahih al-Bukhari 5896

The following where after passing away of the Blessed Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) the Believers used to ask his uncle, Al-Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him).

Narrated Anas: Whenever drought threatened them, `Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin `Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah! Bless us with rain." And so, it would rain. Sahih al-Bukhari 1010

And the following where a Bedouin Stood at the Prophet’s Graveside and prayed to Allah Almighty.

Al-Majd says, “We have narrated an incident from Imam Al-Asma’ī (scholar in the field of Arabic etymology and morphology) who says, “A Bedouin stood in front of Allāh’s Messenger (peace and blessings upon him)’s grave rendering the following sentiments”, “O Allāh, undoubtedly this Prophet (Muḥammad) is Your beloved, I am Your devotee, and the devil is Your enemy.”

If You pardon my sins, Your beloved will express delight, Your devotee will succeed and Your enemy will grieve.”

“If You do not pardon me, then Your beloved will grieve, Your enemy will rejoice and Your slave will be destroyed.”

“It does not befit Your honour and grace, that Your enemy rejoices, Your beloved grieves, and your devotee is destroyed.”

“O Allāh, when the honorable and generous amongst the Arab community would stand by the grave of one of their leaders, they would free slaves (in respect and honour). [Oh my Lord], I stand before the grave of the chief of all previous and forth coming communities [beseeching You], O Lord of the universe, free me from the dreadful hell-fire by the blessedness of this grave.”

Imam Al-’Asma’ī says, “I said to him out of sheer amazement”, “O my Arab brother, Indeed Allāh has forgiven you (as I presume) by the eloquence you have portrayed in presenting your sentiments [and supplication to Allāh]”. (Reference: Wafā Al-Wafā)

And the following talk by highly qualified Iranian scholar Ustadh Dr. Ali Ataie

Understanding the Concept of Prophetic Intercession

 

I agree we can ask our parents, grandparents, other near one irrespective of age, our friends or any other person or any scholar to pray for us for our needs.  According to me, one should not ask those who passed away for their waseelah.  This is my opinion.

I am aware Shias, Sunni Brelvis (highly influenced by Sufism) and Sufis do visit shrines of saints for waseelah.

Wasalaam

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15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You have repeated this nonsense many times to deny Imamate in shia Islam without any evidence  just based on Wahabi /Salafi propaganda  of KSA & it's allies against  Shias especially  Iran & it's people  for denying   " Wilayat al Faqih " by calling it as creation of Shia clergy but in contrast it's just following  order of infallible  Imams  especially  Imam Mahdi (aj) during his occultation  by his order nevertheless all of Shia scholars have agreement  about Wilayat al Faqih  but on the other hand they have different  opinions  about level of implying it on muslim community  based on multiple factors likewise demographics & trends in each era but there is not something as Iranian version or Iraqi version & etc & forcing it to Shia world in contrast to batalant  lies of Wahabists  & Salafists by support  KSA & it's allies as puppets of America  & Israel.

Assalama alaykum Braadar Aziz-e-maan Ashvazdanghe

I come here to debate with my Shia brothers/sisters and my intention is not antagonise them.  I express my views truthfully with my conscience.  Of course, I, being a Sunni, don’t expect posters to agree to my views (as I wouldn't with their views).
On this site, I am sure I am allowed to express my views on Shia – Sunni section as long as I am not lying, misrepresenting the facts – may be the facts are not to your liking – but are facts clearly verifiable if you keep up with the news.  In every country you have groups within the system who tussle with each other to get on the top.  There is always tension within these groups.  This is a normal human behaviour all over.

I am not “wahabi/salafi KSA & it's allies as puppets of America & Israel supporter” – You are doing this quite often - If YOU don’t like me posting here, let me know. I’ll stop.

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

by calling it as creation of Shia clergy but in contrast it's just following  order of infallible  Imams  especially  Imam Mahdi (aj) during his occultation  by his order nevertheless all of Shia scholars have agreement  about Wilayat al Faqih

The doctrinal basis of the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist comes at least in part from the hadith where Islamic Prophet Muhammad is reputed to have said "The ulama are the inheritors of the prophets" (Arabic: العلماء ورثة الأنبياء‎).[7] The issue was mentioned by the earliest Shi'i mujtahids such as al-Shaykh Al-Mufid (948–1022), and enforced for a while by Muhaqqiq Karaki during the era of Tahmasp I (1524–1576).[citation needed] However, according to John Esposito in The Oxford Dictionary of Islam, Morteza Ansari (~1781–1864) was the first Islamic scholar to advance the theory of the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardianship_of_the_Islamic_Jurist

Read from the following Shia site.  No mention of 12th Imam commanding/recommending the “office of Wilayat al Faqih” It is discussion among the Shia scholars.

https://www.al-islam.org/shia-political-thought-ahmed-vaezi/what-wilayat-al-faqih

Wasalaam – with my best wishes and my apologies if I have upset you with my posts. 

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6 hours ago, Debate follower said:

The issue was mentioned by the earliest Shi'i mujtahids such as al-Shaykh Al-Mufid (948–1022), and enforced for a while by Muhaqqiq Karaki during the era of Tahmasp I (1524–1576).[citation needed] However, according to John Esposito in The Oxford Dictionary of Islam, Morteza Ansari (~1781–1864) was the first Islamic scholar to advance the theory of the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist.[8]

Salam al-Shaykh Al-Mufid (رضي الله عنه) has been among first Wali Faqihs  & deputy of Imam Mahdi (aj) & one of greatest shia leaders who has been confirmed  by Imam Mahdi (aj) which Wilayat Faqih has faced thicks & thins until emergance of Safavids which by their support It has been ofiicialy recognized . Therefore WF is not innovation  of Safavids or shia scholars which great students  of shia Imams since time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) unofficially  have had this status by order & supervision  of infallible  Imams(a).

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Shaykh_al-Mufid

https://www.al-islam.org/person/shaykh-al-mufid

https://en.shafaqna.com/37653/the-past-master-sheikh-al-mufid/

Quote

Abstract

The book of al-Jamel was written to prove the legitimacy of Imam 'Ali in the Battle of Jamel. Theological views of Al-Shaykh Al-Mufid's contemporary sects on this event impressed and persuaded him to write about the Battle of Jamel and selecting of historical narratives about it. The question is what intellectual conditions influenced Al-Shaykh Al-Mufid to gathere the narratives of the Jamal and to write this book? Based on the textual analysis of al-Jamal's text, this study shows that Al-Shaykh Al-Mufid was against the two beliefs spreading in the society of the legitimacy of the performance of Companions of the Prophet at the head of the two armies as well as the theory of “Legitimate heads/ Illegitimate companions”. He wrote his work on three axes: the explicit deviation of Jamel fighters from the orders of the Islamic religion; their insistence on war, their rejection of ijtihad and their repentance; the virtues and supereminence of Imam 'Ali.
 

https://jhic.ut.ac.ir/article_75465.html?lang=en

https://www.sid.ir/en/journal/ViewPaper.aspx?id=792712

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46148415-the-battle-of-the-camel

Quote

servant_of_ahlulbayt (a.s) on Twitter: "Imam Al-Mahdi [a.s.] wrote in a  letter to Ash-Shaykh Al-Mufid: "We are aware of your circumstances and  nothing of your affairs is concealed from us." Bihar-ul-Anwar, vol. 53,  The Mahdi Movement (@mahdimovement12) | Twitter 

 

6 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am not “wahabi/salafi KSA & it's allies as puppets of America & Israel supporter” – You are doing this quite often - If YOU don’t like me posting here, let me know. I’ll stop.

I have not mentioned you but because your danial of Imam Mahdi (aj) & repeating propaganda  of KSA backed  wahabis/salafis in multiple  posts , it's clear that you are heavily under their influence .

 

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Assalama ‘Alaykum brother

On 9/23/2021 at 7:56 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

I have not mentioned you

 

On 9/22/2021 at 9:16 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

You have repeated this nonsense many times to deny Imamate in shia Islam without any evidence  just based on Wahabi /Salafi propaganda  of KSA & it's allies against  Shias especially  Iran & it's people 

There you my dear brother, You were addressing me!  My posts may not be palatable to your taste, but I do not dish out nonsense!
 

On 9/22/2021 at 9:16 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

for denying   " Wilayat al Faqih " by calling it as creation of Shia clergy but in contrast it's just following  order of infallible  Imams  especially  Imam Mahdi (aj) during his occultation  by his order

That’s your simplified version, all that I have read is that Shia Ulema were discussing the need of having a central figure to manage the 12er Shia affairs.  There is no textual evidence of 12th Imam specifically ordering of creating an ‘agency of Wilayat Al Faqih. let’s for argument sake accept what you are saying?  Why did it take that long?  After Safavids brutal takeover of Iran and converting forcefully converting Sunni Iran to Shia Iran, why was this order of the Imam not implemented?  After Safavids there were other Shia dynasties that ruled Iran, yet not implementation of Imam’s orders!

Even the 2 attachments in your post just shows that Imam writes that He is aware of Shia ‘difficulties’ not no mention of establishing ‘Wilayet Al Faqih’.
 

On 9/23/2021 at 7:56 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

but because your danial of Imam Mahdi (aj)

I (and Sunnis) do believe in Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him), with major differences with that of 12er Shia’s version. Other prominent branches within Shia do not believe in 12er Shia Imam Mahdi either!

His name is similar to that of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Muhammad ibn Abdullah. He will be from the progeny of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) through Sayyida Fatimah bint Muhammad (peace be upon them both) and H. Ali ibn Abi Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). His birth and appearance will be when Allah Almighty Wills.  
 

On 9/23/2021 at 7:56 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

& repeating propaganda  of KSA backed  wahabis/salafis in multiple  posts , it's clear that you are heavily under their influence .

Please read what I had written earlier in response to brother Zainuu.  All the leaders in the Middle East were imposed on by the victors of WW1 just as shahs were imposed on Iran.  In Sha Allah may their end come soon.  And I am not under their influence as much you are not under the influence of shah’s regime.
 

On 9/20/2021 at 11:47 PM, Debate follower said:

How wrong you are about Saudi Arabia. It is a vicious police state completely supported and maintained by the ‘West’.  You’ll see a lot of ‘happy’ faces in the cities of youngsters enjoying the ‘western’ freedom. This in only on the surface in the cities. There is a lot of discontent building up but has not come up to boiling point. Give 5 years more and you will see the results. In sha Allah.  A lot of prominent scholars are locked the bars and being tortured.  You can google for this.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/3/10/analysis-there-is-a-perfect-storm-brewing-in-saudi-arabia

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/03/08/heavy-lies-the-crown-the-survival-of-arab-monarchies-10-years-after-the-arab-spring/

I despise them as much you despise the shah.  I do not take my faith from al sauds as much you did not take your faith from the shah

Also, may I add that I strongly despise the Safavids. They brutally and forcefully turned Iran from a Sunni to a Shia state. Those poor souls were not given Dawah but ultimatum to accept 12er Shia faith or banishment or dispatchment fast forward to the ‘other world’.  If Safavids were NOT there, You my dear brother and I would not be debating from the opposite ends.
Wasalaam my dear brother.  And thanks for your prayers in my last post. 

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@Debate follower

Brother Salamunalaykum,

I am sorry brother that I am replying back and I have not even read your long response. But through what I saw you were full on criticising shia belief. Well, I don't stop anyone from that. And tbh, you have good debaters and you even might win on me by bringing up your library. You might prove me wrong by bringing up your library. But then what? With your aqeeda, will you be able to establish a strong jurisprudence, a strong system of ijtihad, a really strong ilaahi system which keeps on evolving rather than diminishing? No, you cannot. So, even if you win a debate your aqeeda won't help you in practical life. 

As I already said, you will disagree with me but not your fitrah. Imamate is fundamental need of society and humankind for a stable divine system. 

If you are true in what you say, you were always a majority and always in power throughout history but were you able to maintain it? No, because don't have a system to do so. You still have huge wealth. But still muslims are poor. Because you are leaderless. You had huge empires, spanning continents. Some salafis take pride in that time, but if you were soooo great why were unable to maintain it? Even after having wealth, people, scholars, power? In India, sunni brothers were fighting for tripple talaq and imagine a hindu judge was telling them that it is no where in your books. Such a shame and such a mockery they made of religion after having soo much knowledge and support from all sides. 

Why are only the shias cpming up when Palestine needs support? 

Prof. Henry Corbin (a convert to Shiism) by the great Allama Tabatabai said, "Shia islam is unique because it is alive. The leaders of all other religions are history. But the leader of shia Islam is still alive and therefore, this religion will stay until it's leader remains."

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you and bless you.

Edited by Zainuu
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Wa 'alaykum Salaam brother Zainuu

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

I am sorry brother that I am replying back and I have not even read your long response.

That’s absolutely fine brother, it’s your choice to read my response or not. My reason for replying to your posts and questions has two purposes:
1) Obviously is to answer points raised by you
2) It is for readers now and those who may venture on Shiachat in future and happen to read these posts will know that these queries were answered.  Let them be the judge.  You, brother had raised a lot of questions to me, so, I was morally bound to answer to you.  

It’s your privilege not to read it.  Indeed, I am content that I have met my obligation of replying to questions raised by you.  You may have noticed that I try to answer the questions comprehensively.

Note that I told brother ShiaMan14 that I needed more time to respond to his post as I needed time as I was working on answering to your questions.
 

On 9/20/2021 at 6:50 PM, Debate follower said:

I’ll get back on this in about 2 -3 days’ time – got to read more about it.  Meantime I’ll address brother Zainuu as he has me a lot of interesting questions – of religious and political nature. It is taking more time.

I still going to reply all the questions raised by you well knowing that you may not read them yet again as you did before.  Keep in mind that we are on public forum.  Other readers who are following this thread expect me to answer your questions.
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Well, I don't stop anyone from that. And tbh, you have good debaters and you even might win on me by bringing up your library. You might prove me wrong by bringing up your library. But then what?

Brother, this is a Shia – Sunni debating section on Shiachat, I don’t come here to criticise Shia beliefs, rather I give the Sunni version on the matters raised by others. Do you see me opening any threads challenging or criticising Shias belief?  Not that I don’t have question in my mind that I would like to be answered, but I don’t like to do so. I can easily get answer from Shia sites. Even if I didn’t, that does not bother me.

For me it is not matter of winning or losing, or who has the bigger library, or proving somebody wrong. I just come here to put across my views. And I always back my views from Qur’an and (Sunni) hadith to show that they are not my personal views. I am not a scholar and don’t pretend to be one.
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

With your aqeeda, will you be able to establish a strong jurisprudence, a strong system of ijtihad, a really strong ilaahi system which keeps on evolving rather than diminishing? No, you cannot. So, even if you win a debate your aqeeda won't help you in practical life. 

This question really surprised me! We (Sunnis) do have very strong and established jurisprudence system in place, and it is ever evolving rather than diminishing as you falsely allege. It is not matter of winning of the debates but presenting the true facts.  The true facts will speak for themselves loud and clear. 

Our primary source for jurisprudence is the Blessed Qur’an, and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), these being the revealed sources.

Secondary source being Ijtihad (independent reasoning) is used based on the Ijma' (or consensus amongst Muslim jurists on a particular legal issue), then Qiyas (Analogical reason).  This is based on this hadith:

 Some companions of Mu'adh ibn Jabal (may Allah be pleased with him) said:

When the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) intended to send Mu'adh ibn Jabal (may Allah be pleased with him) to the Yemen, he asked: How will you judge when the occasion of deciding a case arises?

He replied: I shall judge in accordance with Allah's Book. He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in Allah's Book? He replied: (I shall act) in accordance with the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah.

He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah and in Allah's Book?

He replied: I shall do my best to form an opinion (Ijtihad) and I shall spare no effort.

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) then patted him on the breast and said: Praise be to Allah Who has helped the messenger of the Messenger of Allah to find something which pleases the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). Sunan Abi Dawud 3592

I think I have explained you in detail. Our aqeedah is definitely helping us live successfully in our practical lives. Don’t you see that overall, Sunnis are confident and outgoing in their lives?
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

As I already said, you will disagree with me but not your fitrah. Imamate is fundamental need of society and humankind for a stable divine system. 

Brother, it’s not only me or Sunnis, but other Shia branches, i.e., Zaidi’s, Ismailis etc do not agree with your concept of Imamate and divine system. 
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If you are true in what you say, you were always a majority and always in power throughout history but were you able to maintain it? No, because don't have a system to do so

It is fact that Sunnis have always being Majority among the Muslims.
It is fact that Sunnis have always held very dominant power among the Muslims.

Your 12th Imam went into Major Ghaybah in C 941 is leading you ever since.  With enormous power at his disposal, please show me successes of 12er Shias in history. All you can do is to point to Era of Safavids – The first Shia state in the world. Then where would you lay the blame of brutality and savagery of the Safavids?  And then what happened to Safavids? Why did they collapse? Where was the system to maintain it? Why did the 12er Imam not guide them?
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

were you able to maintain it? No, because don't have a system to do so.

It is rule of Allah Almighty – When Muslims leaders start enjoying luxuries of power and move away from implementing Shariah upon themselves – Allah Almighty removes His blessings upon them.  

Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they change what is in themselves. And when God intends ill for a people, there is no avoiding it. Apart from Him, they have no protector. 11 ar-Ra’d

And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people, and they will not be the likes of you. 38 Surah Muhammad
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

You still have huge wealth. But still muslims are poor. Because you are leaderless.

Indeed, Sunni Muslims are leaderless as the Uthmaniyah Khilafah was destroyed by great Zionist conspiracy and internal mismanagement, delinquency, disunity, nepotism, personal rivalries.  The corrupt are wealthy and are shamelessly subservient to their Western patrons. 
 

21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

You had huge empires, spanning continents. Some salafis take pride in that time, but if you were soooo great why were unable to maintain it? Even after having wealth, people, scholars, power?

There is a hadith very appropriate to present situation.

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Masnad Ahmed)

another hadith:  O people, Truly Allah says enjoin the good and forbid the evil before you call upon me which means that I don't answer you and you ask me and I don't give to you and you seek Victory from me and I do not give you that Victory (because you did not enjoin the good and forbid the evil first) (Ahmed, ibn Hibban, Bayhaqi)
 

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22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

In India, sunni brothers were fighting for tripple talaq and imagine a hindu judge was telling them that it is no where in your books. Such a shame and such a mockery they made of religion after having soo much knowledge and support from all sides. 

These are narrow minded scholars who do not look beyond their narrow outlook.  This is only in India.  I vaguely remember reading about this.
 

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Why are only the shias cpming up when Palestine needs support? 

ONLY Shias? Yes, Iran has been supporting Palestinian cause.  Arabian states around Palestine have shamelessly turned their backs in subservience to their Patrons. But in general Sunni population Palestinian cause is very poplar and gets great support, both financial and political.  Other Muslims countries apart from Arab states support Palestinian cause.
 

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Prof. Henry Corbin (a convert to Shiism) by the great Allama Tabatabai said, "Shia islam is unique because it is alive. The leaders of all other religions are history. But the leader of shia Islam is still alive and therefore, this religion will stay until it's leader remains."

Yes, that’s his view. What does this prove? In comparison, I can name hundreds of Western Intellectuals, Statesmen, and high profiles personalities who have convert to Islam (Sunni) and have said great things too.

I tried my best to answer all your questions to best of my ability.  I take this as discussions rather than debates. My aim is not to win but inform from Sunni point of view. I spent a lot my quality time doing this so I hope you have read it and not ignored it as you did with the one before.
 

22 hours ago, Zainuu said:

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you and bless you.

(Ameen) – May Allah Almighty bless and always protect you and your dear family

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On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

Brother, this is a Shia – Sunni debating section on Shiachat, I don’t come here to criticise Shia beliefs, rather I give the Sunni version on the matters raised by others. Do you see me opening any threads challenging or criticising Shias belief?  Not that I don’t have question in my mind that I would like to be answered, but I don’t like to do so. I can easily get answer from Shia sites. Even if I didn’t, that does not bother me.

For me it is not matter of winning or losing, or who has the bigger library, or proving somebody wrong. I just come here to put across my views. And I always back my views from Qur’an and (Sunni) hadith to show that they are not my personal views. I am not a scholar and don’t pretend to be one.

I agree with that brother. But faith is not about debating, rather about practicing. Even I was quite much bent on debating and proving my claims on shiachat before but I just thought that it is a forum of some people, they are not a judge on me rather Allah is the judge on all of us. I read books like Uswat on Ayatullah Bahjat and Sunan Nabi (which I am still reading) by Allama tabatabai and went back on track to practice more rather than just debate. Although, I agree with you over here that if questions are raised they are to be answered and so is the case of shiism where shia scholars have written books and books just to answer the questions on there faith.

On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

This question really surprised me! We (Sunnis) do have very strong and established jurisprudence system in place, and it is ever evolving rather than diminishing as you falsely allege. It is not matter of winning of the debates but presenting the true facts.  The true facts will speak for themselves loud and clear. 

Our primary source for jurisprudence is the Blessed Qur’an, and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), these being the revealed sources.

Secondary source being Ijtihad (independent reasoning) is used based on the Ijma' (or consensus amongst Muslim jurists on a particular legal issue), then Qiyas (Analogical reason).  This is based on this hadith:

 Some companions of Mu'adh ibn Jabal (may Allah be pleased with him) said:

When the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) intended to send Mu'adh ibn Jabal (may Allah be pleased with him) to the Yemen, he asked: How will you judge when the occasion of deciding a case arises?

He replied: I shall judge in accordance with Allah's Book. He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in Allah's Book? He replied: (I shall act) in accordance with the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah.

He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah and in Allah's Book?

He replied: I shall do my best to form an opinion (Ijtihad) and I shall spare no effort.

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) then patted him on the breast and said: Praise be to Allah Who has helped the messenger of the Messenger of Allah to find something which pleases the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). Sunan Abi Dawud 3592

I think I have explained you in detail. Our aqeedah is definitely helping us live successfully in our practical lives. Don’t you see that overall, Sunnis are confident and outgoing in their lives?

Well, for one reason I know how Sunni scholars in India and Pakistan have destroyed the lives of millions of women. By favoring triple talaq (a fastrack way of divorcing) and nikah e Halala. They were unable to prove it from the Quran even in front of hindus let alone shias. They defamed Islam and became a disgraceful representative of religion in front of a nation of 1 billion people. Long before all of this would happen they even stopped women from gaining education and it was only the movement started by Sir Sayyed when there banner fell apart. The hadith you shared has no problem. But I don't see this hadith folloqed in practical lives of Sunnis. Where many traditions and rulings are just coming out from there own minds and not from Quran or Sunnah. 

Definitely, the Sunnis see themselves thriving that is why they follow it. But a majority of them are moderate who don't care much about fiqh but get along in life. And a good majority of those who take it seriously have some extreme perspectives. So, the confidence factor you talk about doesn't mean correct orientation. What correct orientation does mean is that what they read in books and how they derive there religion, is it even possible to practically apply it top to bottom. When you have declared 6 books as ultimate correct books (Sahih) and pure sunnah how are you doing ijtihad (deduction). The people who question the status of Bukhari, I have seen how they are being called Dajjal, this and that. 

No book is authentic except the Quran and all hadith books should have a room of research alive in it. So, the 6 sahih books which you follow as sahih can be questioned and can be researched again. But I don't see that happening among the Sunnis. There are numerous questions which are valid. I don't have to do anything with the technical works that the sunnis scholars do and all the ilm ur Rijal and Mantiq etc.. My question is about the resultant.

On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

Brother, it’s not only me or Sunnis, but other Shia branches, i.e., Zaidi’s, Ismailis etc do not agree with your concept of Imamate and divine system. 

Yes. exactly. You all follow Imamate by the way. But difference between you and all the shias (zaidis or ismailis or imamis) is that shias have a debate on who the Imam should be but you just don't recognize it openly. Although, you do get compelled to accept Caliphate of anyone, whosoever gets the seat and is a muslim.

Zaidis, Ismailis (although not as strict as us Imamis) still have a concept which they recognize. On the other hand, we consider it crucial to faith (even it's choice).

On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

is fact that Sunnis have always being Majority among the Muslims.
It is fact that Sunnis have always held very dominant power among the Muslims.

But to no avail actually. 

On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

Your 12th Imam went into Major Ghaybah in C 941 is leading you ever since.  With enormous power at his disposal, please show me successes of 12er Shias in history. All you can do is to point to Era of Safavids – The first Shia state in the world. Then where would you lay the blame of brutality and savagery of the Safavids?  And then what happened to Safavids? Why did they collapse? Where was the system to maintain it? Why did the 12er Imam not guide them?

First of all, ghaybah of Imam (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) doesn't mean he led with enormous power etc. The successes always lie parallel to the objectives and the Imams are bound by the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) itself. 

The success that Shias gained is that I am still talking to you safe and sound and I am a shia of Ali and I exist. so, despite all what the enemies could do to eliminate shiism and shia works. Alhumdulillah we are still there and not only living but spreading. Also, we have saved our literature, our books, our fiqh and everything in the face of times completely against us. Safavid dynasty was not any ultimate success. Although, a shia state was established in order to safeguard shias from the even brutal ottomans but this is the only success attached with shias and this is actually of grave imoortance. Because seeing the magnitude of atrocities and hostilities, if it would not have been the help of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his hujjah, we would not have survived.

Although, Safavids were gone because they deviated but the shiism in Iran remained. This was the success. Safavids didn't protect us, it was Allah and his hujjat. And this is only our achievement, seeing the times we lived in.

On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

It is rule of Allah Almighty – When Muslims leaders start enjoying luxuries of power and move away from implementing Shariah upon themselves – Allah Almighty removes His blessings upon them.  

Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they change what is in themselves. And when God intends ill for a people, there is no avoiding it. Apart from Him, they have no protector. 11 ar-Ra’d

And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people, and they will not be the likes of you. 38 Surah Muhammad

Exactly, such deviations happened from the very start. And as a result after the death of Uthman, state of Islam was in chaos. The issues became open when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) took Caliphate. These defects became clear when they martyred him and his son Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and then it all went away in the hands of tyrants as we all know. This is what these verses point to and this is what the hadith points to.

On 9/26/2021 at 9:11 PM, Debate follower said:

There is a hadith very appropriate to present situation.

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Masnad Ahmed)

another hadith:  O people, Truly Allah says enjoin the good and forbid the evil before you call upon me which means that I don't answer you and you ask me and I don't give to you and you seek Victory from me and I do not give you that Victory (because you did not enjoin the good and forbid the evil first) (Ahmed, ibn Hibban, Bayhaqi)

Agree with that.

On 9/26/2021 at 9:15 PM, Debate follower said:

ONLY Shias? Yes, Iran has been supporting Palestinian cause.  Arabian states around Palestine have shamelessly turned their backs in subservience to their Patrons. But in general Sunni population Palestinian cause is very poplar and gets great support, both financial and political.  Other Muslims countries apart from Arab states support Palestinian cause

Political support is nowhere but only in speeches. Finances don't do a thing unless politics interferes. And yes, as you said, you are exactly quoting what I am saying from the start. If you had taken the issue of Imamate and wilayat seriously, you would never had seen shameless leaders in arab states. 

On 9/26/2021 at 9:15 PM, Debate follower said:

Yes, that’s his view. What does this prove? In comparison, I can name hundreds of Western Intellectuals, Statesmen, and high profiles personalities who have convert to Islam (Sunni) and have said great things too.

I tried my best to answer all your questions to best of my ability.  I take this as discussions rather than debates. My aim is not to win but inform from Sunni point of view. I spent a lot my quality time doing this so I hope you have read it and not ignored it as you did with the one before.

My aim is to point out the fact that Idea of Imamate cannot be ignored and thus shia belief is complete in this way. You yourself brought up great points though, but if you read your own words, you have actually agreed that the current and former issues that have occurred in Islamic world have happened because of the lack of leadership which has it's roots in taking the concept of Imamate lightly, ignoring it and therefore considering anyone to be a leader.

You might bring up many many flaws in shias on this subject but with that I agree and Imam Khomeini even conceded that yes even Shias have taken the concept of wilayat and Imamate lightly. But the concept of Imamate in shiism is crucial to faith. 

 

I will come back and go through your former responses brother. It is not that I have ignored and not interested bu I am short of time.

May Allah bless you and guide you.

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On 9/26/2021 at 5:41 PM, Debate follower said:

Your 12th Imam went into Major Ghaybah in C 941 is leading you ever since.  With enormous power at his disposal, please show me successes of 12er Shias in history. All you can do is to point to Era of Safavids – The first Shia state in the world. Then where would you lay the blame of brutality and savagery of the Safavids?  And then what happened to Safavids? Why did they collapse? Where was the system to maintain it? Why did the 12er Imam not guide them?

:salam:

See, that's where you sense that Mahdism as a concept had not been fully integrated into Sunni perception, although it is there in their books. 

Otherwise you would also be asking yourself 'why our Sunni Mahdi, with enormous power at his disposal, and 1.2 billion sunnis at his cause, not make his appearance'. 

You are still asking Shias to prove the logic of a Mahdi while we could ask you the very same questions. 

Better make up your mind now :

- Either Mahdism is a Shia concept that infiltrated Sunni faith, making Sunnism corrupt, thus void

- Or realize our issue is only about who the Mahdi (عليه السلام) is, and therefore stop questioning God's plan. 

 

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Wa ‘alaykum Salaam warehmatullahe wabarakatuhu

On 9/28/2021 at 7:51 AM, realizm said:

See, that's where you sense that Mahdism as a concept had not been fully integrated into Sunni perception, although it is there in their books. 

Of course, Sunnis believe in the coming of Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) and this is in our books.

But he is completely different personality to that of Shia Mahdi.
Name of ‘Shia’ Mahdi is Muhammad ibn Hassan Al Askari: Born 15 Sha'ban 256 AH (c. July 18, 870 CE) Still ALIVE and in occultation.
Name of ‘Sunni’ Mahdi is Muhammad ibn Abdullah is not born yet and therefore his identity is known only to Allah Almighty.

So, they are completely two different personalities. Nearly 1200 years apart to date.  Sunnis share a lot of similarities about Imam Mahdi’s mission with 12er Shias barring some serious differences within this.

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.” – (Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207; also narrated by Ali ibn Abu Talib, Abu Sa’id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

Sunnis take him to be a “Khilafah upon the Prophetic method.”

There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method” and then he remained silent. (Musnad Imam Ahmad)
 

On 9/28/2021 at 7:51 AM, realizm said:

Otherwise you would also be asking yourself 'why our Sunni Mahdi, with enormous power at his disposal, and 1.2 billion* sunnis at his cause, not make his appearance'. 

* (In 2021 there are approximately 1.9 billion Muslims globally, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world behind Christianity.  So, there are roughly 1.7 billion Sunnis Muslims around.)
I am sure you are aware of Sunni belief that Imam Mahdi is NOT BORN yet!  Sunnis are not waiting for Imam Mahdi rescue or delivery us from our difficulties by the Will of Allah Almighty.  Rather we are commanded to strive hard for Allah Almighty’s cause, resulting in Guidance from Allah Almighty!

But We shall be sure to guide to Our ways those who strive hard for Our cause: God is with those who do good. 69 Al-'Ankabut

O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him. They will be humble with the believers but firm towards the disbelievers, struggling in the Way of Allah; fearing no blame from anyone. This is the favour of Allah. He grants it to whoever He wills. And Allah is Ever-Bountiful, All-Knowing. 54 al-Maida

In Sunni hadith Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) will be born when Allah Almighty WILLS and will make his appearance in the Masjid Al Haram in Masjid Makkah-al-Mukarramah when Allah Almighty WILLS.  In the meantime, we are commanded to strive in Allah Almighty’s Way with the means at our disposal.
 

On 9/28/2021 at 7:51 AM, realizm said:

You are still asking Shias to prove the logic of a Mahdi while we could ask you the very same questions. 

Brother, Shias believe that Imam Mahdi is ALIVE and is guiding them (without them knowing), while Sunnis do not have such services.  Keeping this in mind, Shias should have been much successful from 11 Centuries ago.
Only success the 12er Shia can show is the conversion Sunni Iran to 12er Shia through Safavids – The methods they used for this achievement were barbaric and utmost cruelty. 

Brutal Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - I dare you to read this all with clear heart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam
 

On 9/28/2021 at 7:51 AM, realizm said:

Better make up your mind now :

- Either Mahdism is a Shia concept that infiltrated Sunni faith, making Sunnism corrupt, thus void

- Or realize our issue is only about who the Mahdi (عليه السلام) is, and therefore stop questioning God's plan. 

The mind is firmly made up in following the Blessed Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Sunnis and Shias share the concept of Imam Mahdi – But are completely two personalities 1100 years apart and still counting! There is no infiltration of Shia concept of Imam Mahdi into Sunni faith. 12er Shias cannot show how the 12th Imam has helped them.  Nobody is questioning Allah Almighty’s plan!

@Zainuu

Assalama alaykum brother.  As you have asked quite a lot of questions, I’ll need more time to reply – so be maybe around Sunday. Also, too much debating hardens the heart.

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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam warehmatullahe wabarakatuhu

Of course, Sunnis believe in the coming of Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) and this is in our books.

But he is completely different personality to that of Shia Mahdi.
Name of ‘Shia’ Mahdi is Muhammad ibn Hassan Al Askari: Born 15 Sha'ban 256 AH (c. July 18, 870 CE) Still ALIVE and in occultation.
Name of ‘Sunni’ Mahdi is Muhammad ibn Abdullah is not born yet and therefore his identity is known only to Allah Almighty.

So, they are completely two different personalities. Nearly 1200 years apart to date.  Sunnis share a lot of similarities about Imam Mahdi’s mission with 12er Shias barring some serious differences within this.

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.” – (Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207; also narrated by Ali ibn Abu Talib, Abu Sa’id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

Sunnis take him to be a “Khilafah upon the Prophetic method.”

There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method” and then he remained silent. (Musnad Imam Ahmad)
 

* (In 2021 there are approximately 1.9 billion Muslims globally, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world behind Christianity.  So, there are roughly 1.7 billion Sunnis Muslims around.)
I am sure you are aware of Sunni belief that Imam Mahdi is NOT BORN yet!  Sunnis are not waiting for Imam Mahdi rescue or delivery us from our difficulties by the Will of Allah Almighty.  Rather we are commanded to strive hard for Allah Almighty’s cause, resulting in Guidance from Allah Almighty!

But We shall be sure to guide to Our ways those who strive hard for Our cause: God is with those who do good. 69 Al-'Ankabut

O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him. They will be humble with the believers but firm towards the disbelievers, struggling in the Way of Allah; fearing no blame from anyone. This is the favour of Allah. He grants it to whoever He wills. And Allah is Ever-Bountiful, All-Knowing. 54 al-Maida

In Sunni hadith Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) will be born when Allah Almighty WILLS and will make his appearance in the Masjid Al Haram in Masjid Makkah-al-Mukarramah when Allah Almighty WILLS.  In the meantime, we are commanded to strive in Allah Almighty’s Way with the means at our disposal.
 

Brother, Shias believe that Imam Mahdi is ALIVE and is guiding them (without them knowing), while Sunnis do not have such services.  Keeping this in mind, Shias should have been much successful from 11 Centuries ago.
Only success the 12er Shia can show is the conversion Sunni Iran to 12er Shia through Safavids – The methods they used for this achievement were barbaric and utmost cruelty. 

Brutal Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - I dare you to read this all with clear heart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam
 

The mind is firmly made up in following the Blessed Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Sunnis and Shias share the concept of Imam Mahdi – But are completely two personalities 1100 years apart and still counting! There is no infiltration of Shia concept of Imam Mahdi into Sunni faith. 12er Shias cannot show how the 12th Imam has helped them.  Nobody is questioning Allah Almighty’s plan!

@Zainuu

Assalama alaykum brother.  As you have asked quite a lot of questions, I’ll need more time to reply – so be maybe around Sunday. Also, too much debating hardens the heart.

Salam Brother.

You have mentioned that if shias are being guided by imam than they should be more successful. Can you please explain what sort of success are you talking about? 

If you are measuring success by the number of followers a religion/fate has then Christianity has been more successful than Islam.

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"Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate?"

It is existing at this very moment. What I wonder is that why the "sabiqoon al awwaloon" (according to sunni's) thought it is necessary to have a caliph? And if the "sabiqoon al-awwaloon" deemed it necessary to have a caliph, why their followers are not following them? 

@Debate follower

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22 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam warehmatullahe wabarakatuhu

Of course, Sunnis believe in the coming of Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) and this is in our books.

But he is completely different personality to that of Shia Mahdi.
Name of ‘Shia’ Mahdi is Muhammad ibn Hassan Al Askari: Born 15 Sha'ban 256 AH (c. July 18, 870 CE) Still ALIVE and in occultation.
Name of ‘Sunni’ Mahdi is Muhammad ibn Abdullah is not born yet and therefore his identity is known only to Allah Almighty.

So, they are completely two different personalities. Nearly 1200 years apart to date.  Sunnis share a lot of similarities about Imam Mahdi’s mission with 12er Shias barring some serious differences within this.

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.” – (Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207; also narrated by Ali ibn Abu Talib, Abu Sa’id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

Sunnis take him to be a “Khilafah upon the Prophetic method.”

There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method” and then he remained silent. (Musnad Imam Ahmad)
 

* (In 2021 there are approximately 1.9 billion Muslims globally, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world behind Christianity.  So, there are roughly 1.7 billion Sunnis Muslims around.)
I am sure you are aware of Sunni belief that Imam Mahdi is NOT BORN yet!  Sunnis are not waiting for Imam Mahdi rescue or delivery us from our difficulties by the Will of Allah Almighty.  Rather we are commanded to strive hard for Allah Almighty’s cause, resulting in Guidance from Allah Almighty!

But We shall be sure to guide to Our ways those who strive hard for Our cause: God is with those who do good. 69 Al-'Ankabut

O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him. They will be humble with the believers but firm towards the disbelievers, struggling in the Way of Allah; fearing no blame from anyone. This is the favour of Allah. He grants it to whoever He wills. And Allah is Ever-Bountiful, All-Knowing. 54 al-Maida

In Sunni hadith Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) will be born when Allah Almighty WILLS and will make his appearance in the Masjid Al Haram in Masjid Makkah-al-Mukarramah when Allah Almighty WILLS.  In the meantime, we are commanded to strive in Allah Almighty’s Way with the means at our disposal.
 

 

 

You are not teaching us anything here. Shias have the exact same stance on Mahdism as Sunnis, except for his identity. 

 

22 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Only success the 12er Shia can show is the conversion Sunni Iran to 12er Shia through Safavids – The methods they used for this achievement were barbaric and utmost cruelty. 

Brutal Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - I dare you to read this all with clear heart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

I fail to see what 'achievements of the Ummah' has to do with 'personality and zuhoor of Imam Mahdi'. 

I thought that Mahdi (ajtfs) will appear when Muslims are oppressed and divided? 

22 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Brother, Shias believe that Imam Mahdi is ALIVE and is guiding them (without them knowing), while Sunnis do not have such services.  Keeping this in mind, Shias should have been much successful from 11 Centuries ago.

That's your take on the Shia creed. Where does this come from ? Maybe that's why you have some false bias towards Shia Islam? 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

"Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate?"

It is existing at this very moment. What I wonder is that why the "sabiqoon al awwaloon" (according to sunni's) thought it is necessary to have a caliph? And if the "sabiqoon al-awwaloon" deemed it necessary to have a caliph, why their followers are not following them? 

@Debate follower

You asked why. 
 

because humans are not perfect. 
we will never know 100% what really happened during their time. 
 

“people” have their own agenda. 
 

that’s why it’s critical for Muslims to use their own judgement 

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23 hours ago, Guest Guest... said:

Salam Brother.

You have mentioned that if shias are being guided by imam than they should be more successful. Can you please explain what sort of success are you talking about? 

If you are measuring success by the number of followers a religion/fate has then Christianity has been more successful than Islam.

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam brother Guest Guest ……

Only 12er Shias believe in the 12th Imam and that he is guiding them from behind the clouds as the saying goes. And they believe him to be infallible.  I have following extract from the Shia site (link attached).
 

Quote

 

What is the Benefit of Having the 12th Imam in Occultation?

The only door that has remained open for humanity is the door of hope in the darkness of despair. That hope lies in the divine intervention in human affairs by the sending of a divinely guided leader, the Mahdi, to establish a godly society founded upon the divinely ordained laws.  Indeed, it is this hope that gives solace to the disturbed hearts of those who have suffered injustices.  It is the hope of seeing that government based on the acknowledgement of the Unity of God which has safeguarded the faith of the people and has made them firm in their commitments to God.   

 

https://www.erfan.ir/english/10291.html

 

According to Twelver Shias, the Major Occultation which came around the year 329AH/941CE around 1081 years ago to date.
1) The Twelver could not establish a state where they could implement Godly Society upon the divinely ordained laws.  In comparison, Zaidi Shias and Ismaili Shias had established some states here and there for quite some time.

2) Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni the author of Kitab al-Kafi. He lived in the era of the Minor Occultation of al-Mahdi.  “It is reported that Ayatullah kulayni spent 20 years compiling Al-Kafi and thought at the end that what he did was in vain, and he wasted 20 years of his life on it, and when his heart was broken, he threw it in the Euphrates River. When he woke up the next morning, Al-Kafi was dry on his desk, and on it was written
"al Kafi is sufficient (Kafi) for our Shia" and it was signed by Imam Mahdi.” 

I am aware that Kulayni had stated, in reference to hadith collection: "whatever (hadith) agrees with the Book of God (the Qur'an), accept it. And whatever contradicts it, reject it” If the Twelfth Imam had approved it, how could it be 69% weak hadith!

Around 600 years later the “great Imami scholar Zayn al-Dīn al-ʿĀmili, known as ash-Shahīd ath-Thāni (1505-1559), who examined the asanād or the chains of transmission of al-Kāfi's traditions, 5,072 are considered ṣaḥīḥ (sound); 144 are regarded as ḥasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwathaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawi (strong) and 9,485 traditions which are categorized as ḍaʿīf (weak).  [ Selections from Al-Kulayni's Al-Kafi".] 16,199 narrations.”   That’s 31% Sahih!!!!!!!

Mind you, these were verified the Twelfth Imam as Good Enough for 12er Shia! 

The Twelfth Imam was in Minor Occultation, he could easily have gone to Ayatullah Kulayni and given all the authentic knowledge. Isn’t it strange that the Twelfth Imam didn’t find it necessary help him compile authentic hadith book?

3) In the 12th and 13th Centuries the Muslims lands were invaded by the Mongols and all the countries were laid to waste.  It is only the Sunni Muslims who fought the Mongols for 30 to 40 years and defeated the Mongols due to their great numbers and some very brave leaders.  At the same time the Crusaders attacked the Levant to capture Jerusalem and had around 16 great battles in span of 80 years until they were defeated for good.  It was late 1890s up to the First World War that Western Countries led by the Zionist and inside conspirators that destroyed the Uthmaniyah Khilafah.

In short, with the Guidance of the Twelfth Imam 12er Shias should have been the Guiding light for others to follow. You don’t hear anything positive about Shia involvement.

With Khilafah gone, as was foretold by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), Sunni Muslim states, most of whom were created by the Western Powers, are busy fighting each other for very petty ego issues.  They do not have uniting leadership.  Whereas the Twelver Shia have the Imam to guide them.  They too, are divided into petty issues.  Looks like there is no unifying Guidance at all.

 4) It is only in 1503 the Safavids succeeded in creating a Twelver Shia State. Not through persuasion or ‘dawah’ but by using savagery and brutal force.   Brutal Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - I wish you read this all with clear heart.  I hope you can give your honest opinion on this.   I hope you do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

If you were to draw a circle of 2000 miles radius with Qom being the centre.  You will have covered 95% of the Shia population.  Other 5% are scattered around the world and big chunk of these being the people from the big circle gone abroad!

In Comparison you can see Sunni Moslems scattered all over the Globe and having more than 50 states with overwhelming populations.  This show that they are more dynamic.

23 hours ago, Guest Guest... said:

If you are measuring success by the number of followers a religion/fate has then Christianity has been more successful than Islam.

“And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly.” 103 Yusuf
“And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the path of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.” 116 Al-An’ām

No, my brother I am not measuring the number of followers of a religion. The Blessed Qur’an has time and again has affirmed that the non-Muslims will always outnumber the Believers (those who believe in strict Oneness of Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) being the Chief and last of the Prophets (peace be upon them all), Qur’an being the last message, etc etc and turn to the Qiblah to perform the prayers.

I am talking about the Majority of the Believers!  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states:

 

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Twelver Shias interpret the above as: “he who loves me too much” = Ahlul Ghulat (
exaggerators)
“who hates me too much” = khawarij (seceders) and “Who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity.”  As the Twelvers Shias!  And guess what?
They completely forgot approximately 90% of the Muslims – the Sunnis. 

Sunnis also have a lot of hadith where the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) warned not to split into sects and to stick to the great majority of Muslims.

Allah Almighty has warned the Believers not to break into sects many times.

“And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided.” 103 al Imran
Surely, they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. 159 al Anum
“And this is My path, which is straight, so follow it; and do not follow the other paths, for you will be separated from His Path. This has He instructed you that you may become righteous.” 153 Al-An’ām
Turn in repentance, be mindful, and establish prayer. Do not be among those who commit idolatry, those who divided their religion and became sects, each party rejoicing in itself. 31-32 Ar-Rum

Now this does mean that just because someone is born Sunni, he/she has a free pass to Paradise.  Many Sunnis these days of ignorance do perform practices which are alien to Islam.  Ignorance is no excuse.  Each soul will be Judged by Allah Almighty fairly as He is the Best Judge. 
So, I would say the True Islam lies within Sunni Islam but most of the people don’t practice it in these times due to general stagnation.

I had quoted these hadith before above, very appropriate to these times. 

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-Wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-Wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Masnad Ahmed)

another hadith:  O people, Truly Allah says enjoin the good and forbid the evil before you call upon me which means that I don't answer you and you ask me and I don't give to you and you seek Victory from me and I do not give you that Victory (because you did not enjoin the good and forbid the evil first) (Ahmed, ibn Hibban, Bayhaqi)

The following hadith relate to the present times.

Muslims divided within divisions, each fighting the other over petty issues, forgetting Islamic brother hood.

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Islam began as a something strange and it will return to being strange, so blessed are the strangers.”  Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 145 - It means very few will really practice Islam as it requirements.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, Time will pass rapidly, good deeds will decrease, miserliness will be thrown (in the hearts of the people) afflictions will appear and there will be much 'Al-Harj. They said, O Allah's Apostle! What is Al-Harj? He said, Killing! Killing! Sahih Bukhari 7061

Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet said, Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread, and there will be Al-Harj in abundance, and Al-Harj means killing. Sahih Bukhari 7064

Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet said, Near the establishment of the Hour, there will be the days of Al-Harj, and the religious knowledge will be taken away (vanish i.e. by the death of Religious scholars) and general ignorance will spread. Abu Musa said, Al-Harj, in the Ethiopian language, means killing. Sahih Bukhari 7066

Eventually all Muslims will enter Paradise – having paid for their misdeeds.
Lucky ones will get Shafa'ah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), the Martyrs, or any others from Allah Almighty Will accept the Shafa’ah.
My Mercy encompasses all things” Surah Al-A’raf [7:156]

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14 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

 

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Beautiful!

this should be the example All MUSLIMS 

“Sunni or Shia” should quote to help educate fellow misguided muslims

your whole ending to the reply was well said except this part  

 

18 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

So, I would say the True Islam lies within Sunni Islam but most of the people don’t practice it in these times due to general stagnation.

Although you are semi-correct, Sunnis don’t realize they are Sunnis majority just label themselves as a Muslim until a Shia asks them “what are you?”

 

so to clarify for anyone who feels prideful to follow your claim. 
both Sunnis and Shias are not apart of the “True Islam” as you mentioned, until he acknowledges EVERYTHING that you posted. Which is 100% accurate and factual, and 0% opinionated.  
 

but very well said.

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@Debate follower

As opener of the thread may I kindly ask you to open a separate thread to clarify your misconceptions on Shia Mahdism ('the shia Mahdi guiding us from behind clouds' being a clear example). 

As a reminder This thread is about 'can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate', although the phrase 'Is Caliphate a tenant of Sunni Islam just like Imamate is to Shii Islam'. 

So far, my understanding is that it is not a principle -meaning Islam would have been complete even if the Rashidun had not been leaders at one point- , but that history has become an orthodoxy, making the truthfulness of those Khulafa Rashidun unquestionable in order to remain in the frame of belief. 

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Assalama Alaykum brother realizm

Quote

 

Addressing Sunnis please :

Is caliphate a pilar of sunni doctrine ? 
If not, why that urge to elect a leader after death of Prophet (sawas)
If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa?

 

I had answered your query in the following post.

On 9/9/2021 at 11:19 PM, Debate follower said:

Now to answer the question asked by brother realizm

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate?

For Sunni Muslims Khilaafah is highly recommended necessity but not Fard. (Absolute). As brother layman had correctly stated.

I believe that Khalifah is not a pillar of sunni doctrine.  But, there must be an elected leader among Sunni muslim community / country that to defend the doctrine of religion.

Allah Almighty has recommended the Muslims in the Blessed Qur’an to conduct their affairs by mutual consultation.

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them; Verse 38 Surah ash-Shura (appropriately named CONSULTATION).

The Blessed (peace and blessings be upon him) Prophet had prophesied that Khilafah on the Prophetic Methodology will last 30 years.  Then Kingship will begin.

"There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method" and then he remained silent (Imam Ahmed)

The hadeeth narrated by Safeenah (may Allah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic khilaafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills.

Reported by Abu Dawud and al-Haakim. Saheeh al-Jaami' as-Sagheer (no. 3257)

Then the Blessed (peace and blessings be upon him) prophesied the following which I think very appropriately depicts the present situation of Muslim Ummah – Great in Numbers – A lot of Wealth -mostly wasted on personal aggrandisement and glorification!  Love of the worldly life as if there is no tomorrow.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said:

The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-Wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-Wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Ahmed)

The Blessed (peace and blessings be upon him) Prophet is reported to have said:

You will certainly follow the ways of those who came before you hand span by hand span, cubit by cubit, to the extent that if they enter the hole of a lizard, you will enter it too.’ We said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, (do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?’ He said: ‘Who else?’” [Bukhari & Muslim]

Khilafaat was destroyed by non-Muslims twice.

Around 1250 AD the decadent Abbasid Khilafat established in Bagdad was destroyed by the Mongol invasion.

Then after a few years it was re-established in Cairo which last up to early 1500s and Uthmaniyah Khilafat came into being at the same time.    It lasted up to 1924 abolished as it was on the losing side in the First World War and there were massive conspiracies against it by the Zionists and it had become very weak due to internal conflicts and mismanagement and general stagnation.

All is not lost as there is good news the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had prophesied that: “and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method”.

 

 

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4 hours ago, realizm said:

So far, my understanding is that it is not a principle -meaning Islam would have been complete even if the Rashidun had not been leaders at one point- , but that history has become an orthodoxy, making the truthfulness of those Khulafa Rashidun unquestionable in order to remain in the frame of belief. 

 إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً،

Verily, the people who paid allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegiance to me based on the same principles as the allegiance to them. So, anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So, if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him.  Nahjul Balagha letter 6

Please refer to the above letter written by Hz. Ali in Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him).

1) So, anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance 2) and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it 3) And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar
4) So, if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam 5)  then it is
with the pleasure of Allah

Indeed, Islam was complete before the Blessed Prophet passed away. Hz. Ali in Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) gave seal of approval of his predecessors election as Imams as per with the pleasure of Allah.  Thus making the truthfulness of those Khulafa Rashidun unquestionable.  Brother, I am not a scholar I have given my view to the best of my knowledge.  There are no knowledgeable Sunnis posters here.  If, you really want the answers then post it on some Sunni site.  Probably someone will address you better.  For that I am sure.  If, Hz. Ali in Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has accepted it, shouldn't you?   Wasalaam 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, realizm said:

You are not teaching us anything here. Shias have the exact same stance on Mahdism as Sunnis, except for his identity. 

Not really.

- We believe that belief in him is a condition of imaan and is a Faridha just like Salat, and they don't.

- We believe he is an Imam, appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is wajib to follow unconditionally in any circumstance, while they only believe it conditionally, similar to a leader or a Caliph.

- We believe he is infallible, and is the inheritor of the Prophets (عليه السلام) and the Imams (عليه السلام), and they don't.

- We believe he is a guide, and they don't.

- We believe that his existence is what keeps this planet existing, as a world without a hujjah, such as a Prophet or an Imam, cannot exist.

These are not mere differences in identity, these are core aqeeda differences on the characteristics of the Mahdi (عليه السلام).

Edited by Sumerian
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12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Wa ‘alaykum Salaam brother Guest Guest ……

Only 12er Shias believe in the 12th Imam and that he is guiding them from behind the clouds as the saying goes. And they believe him to be infallible.  I have following extract from the Shia site (link attached).
 

https://www.erfan.ir/english/10291.html

 

According to Twelver Shias, the Major Occultation which came around the year 329AH/941CE around 1081 years ago to date.
1) The Twelver could not establish a state where they could implement Godly Society upon the divinely ordained laws.  In comparison, Zaidi Shias and Ismaili Shias had established some states here and there for quite some time.

2) Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni the author of Kitab al-Kafi. He lived in the era of the Minor Occultation of al-Mahdi.  “It is reported that Ayatullah kulayni spent 20 years compiling Al-Kafi and thought at the end that what he did was in vain, and he wasted 20 years of his life on it, and when his heart was broken, he threw it in the Euphrates River. When he woke up the next morning, Al-Kafi was dry on his desk, and on it was written
"al Kafi is sufficient (Kafi) for our Shia" and it was signed by Imam Mahdi.” 

I am aware that Kulayni had stated, in reference to hadith collection: "whatever (hadith) agrees with the Book of God (the Qur'an), accept it. And whatever contradicts it, reject it” If the Twelfth Imam had approved it, how could it be 69% weak hadith!

Around 600 years later the “great Imami scholar Zayn al-Dīn al-ʿĀmili, known as ash-Shahīd ath-Thāni (1505-1559), who examined the asanād or the chains of transmission of al-Kāfi's traditions, 5,072 are considered ṣaḥīḥ (sound); 144 are regarded as ḥasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwathaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawi (strong) and 9,485 traditions which are categorized as ḍaʿīf (weak).  [ Selections from Al-Kulayni's Al-Kafi".] 16,199 narrations.”   That’s 31% Sahih!!!!!!!

Mind you, these were verified the Twelfth Imam as Good Enough for 12er Shia! 

The Twelfth Imam was in Minor Occultation, he could easily have gone to Ayatullah Kulayni and given all the authentic knowledge. Isn’t it strange that the Twelfth Imam didn’t find it necessary help him compile authentic hadith book?

3) In the 12th and 13th Centuries the Muslims lands were invaded by the Mongols and all the countries were laid to waste.  It is only the Sunni Muslims who fought the Mongols for 30 to 40 years and defeated the Mongols due to their great numbers and some very brave leaders.  At the same time the Crusaders attacked the Levant to capture Jerusalem and had around 16 great battles in span of 80 years until they were defeated for good.  It was late 1890s up to the First World War that Western Countries led by the Zionist and inside conspirators that destroyed the Uthmaniyah Khilafah.

In short, with the Guidance of the Twelfth Imam 12er Shias should have been the Guiding light for others to follow. You don’t hear anything positive about Shia involvement.

With Khilafah gone, as was foretold by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), Sunni Muslim states, most of whom were created by the Western Powers, are busy fighting each other for very petty ego issues.  They do not have uniting leadership.  Whereas the Twelver Shia have the Imam to guide them.  They too, are divided into petty issues.  Looks like there is no unifying Guidance at all.

 4) It is only in 1503 the Safavids succeeded in creating a Twelver Shia State. Not through persuasion or ‘dawah’ but by using savagery and brutal force.   Brutal Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - I wish you read this all with clear heart.  I hope you can give your honest opinion on this.   I hope you do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

If you were to draw a circle of 2000 miles radius with Qom being the centre.  You will have covered 95% of the Shia population.  Other 5% are scattered around the world and big chunk of these being the people from the big circle gone abroad!

In Comparison you can see Sunni Moslems scattered all over the Globe and having more than 50 states with overwhelming populations.  This show that they are more dynamic.

“And most of mankind will not believe even if you desire it eagerly.” 103 Yusuf
“And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the path of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.” 116 Al-An’ām

No, my brother I am not measuring the number of followers of a religion. The Blessed Qur’an has time and again has affirmed that the non-Muslims will always outnumber the Believers (those who believe in strict Oneness of Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) being the Chief and last of the Prophets (peace be upon them all), Qur’an being the last message, etc etc and turn to the Qiblah to perform the prayers.

I am talking about the Majority of the Believers!  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states:

 

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Twelver Shias interpret the above as: “he who loves me too much” = Ahlul Ghulat (
exaggerators)
“who hates me too much” = khawarij (seceders) and “Who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity.”  As the Twelvers Shias!  And guess what?
They completely forgot approximately 90% of the Muslims – the Sunnis. 

Sunnis also have a lot of hadith where the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) warned not to split into sects and to stick to the great majority of Muslims.

Allah Almighty has warned the Believers not to break into sects many times.

“And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided.” 103 al Imran
Surely, they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. 159 al Anum
“And this is My path, which is straight, so follow it; and do not follow the other paths, for you will be separated from His Path. This has He instructed you that you may become righteous.” 153 Al-An’ām
Turn in repentance, be mindful, and establish prayer. Do not be among those who commit idolatry, those who divided their religion and became sects, each party rejoicing in itself. 31-32 Ar-Rum

Now this does mean that just because someone is born Sunni, he/she has a free pass to Paradise.  Many Sunnis these days of ignorance do perform practices which are alien to Islam.  Ignorance is no excuse.  Each soul will be Judged by Allah Almighty fairly as He is the Best Judge. 
So, I would say the True Islam lies within Sunni Islam but most of the people don’t practice it in these times due to general stagnation.

I had quoted these hadith before above, very appropriate to these times. 

“The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-Wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-Wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Masnad Ahmed)

another hadith:  O people, Truly Allah says enjoin the good and forbid the evil before you call upon me which means that I don't answer you and you ask me and I don't give to you and you seek Victory from me and I do not give you that Victory (because you did not enjoin the good and forbid the evil first) (Ahmed, ibn Hibban, Bayhaqi)

The following hadith relate to the present times.

Muslims divided within divisions, each fighting the other over petty issues, forgetting Islamic brother hood.

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Islam began as a something strange and it will return to being strange, so blessed are the strangers.”  Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 145 - It means very few will really practice Islam as it requirements.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, Time will pass rapidly, good deeds will decrease, miserliness will be thrown (in the hearts of the people) afflictions will appear and there will be much 'Al-Harj. They said, O Allah's Apostle! What is Al-Harj? He said, Killing! Killing! Sahih Bukhari 7061

Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet said, Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread, and there will be Al-Harj in abundance, and Al-Harj means killing. Sahih Bukhari 7064

Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet said, Near the establishment of the Hour, there will be the days of Al-Harj, and the religious knowledge will be taken away (vanish i.e. by the death of Religious scholars) and general ignorance will spread. Abu Musa said, Al-Harj, in the Ethiopian language, means killing. Sahih Bukhari 7066

Eventually all Muslims will enter Paradise – having paid for their misdeeds.
Lucky ones will get Shafa'ah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), the Martyrs, or any others from Allah Almighty Will accept the Shafa’ah.
My Mercy encompasses all things” Surah Al-A’raf [7:156]

Salam Brother. 

Thank you for replying. I would like to address a few of your points. 

1)  Godly Society upon the divinely ordained laws will only be established when Imam Alay-hi 's-salām will come out of Occultation. 

2) Unlike the so called Sahih books the author of al-Kāfi never intended for it to be politicized as "infallible", he only compiled it to give sincere advice based on authentic Islamic law (regardless of the soundess of any one particular hadith), and to preserve rare hadiths and religious knowledge in an easily accessible collection for future generations to study.  Most of the Hadiths in Kutub al-Sittah are either weak or fabricated. However, they are regarded as Sahih and the most authentic books on religion after holy Quran. 

3) "I would say the True Islam lies within Sunni Islam" This is Contradictory to the Verse you posted above( 103 al Imran).  Isn't Sunni Islam one of the sects? 

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On 9/24/2021 at 6:09 PM, Debate follower said:

After Safavids brutal takeover of Iran and converting forcefully converting Sunni Iran to Shia Iran, why was this order of the Imam not implemented?  After Safavids there were other Shia dynasties that ruled Iran, yet not implementation of Imam’s orders!

Even the 2 attachments in your post just shows that Imam writes that He is aware of Shia ‘difficulties’ not no mention of establishing ‘Wilayet Al Faqih’.

Salam you have obsessed  with wrong interpretation  of wahabists & westerner  colonizers  especially  British colonizers likewise Mr.Hempher who has established  Wahabism & biased anti Safavid propaganda  wich I recommend  you reading 

book of "Confessions of a British Spy Paperback - Books - Amazon.com" https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-British-Spy-Mr-Hempher/dp/1910220159 

https://www.noor-book.com/en/ebook-مذكرات-مستر-همفر-pdf

Nevetheless the book has been written by an Ottoman  sympethizer with antishia propaganda but it's benficial for you.

On 9/24/2021 at 6:09 PM, Debate follower said:

Also, may I add that I strongly despise the Safavids. They brutally and forcefully turned Iran from a Sunni to a Shia state. Those poor souls were not given Dawah but ultimatum to accept 12er Shia faith or banishment or dispatchment fast forward to the ‘other world’.  If Safavids were NOT there, You my dear brother and I would not be debating from the opposite ends.
Wasalaam my dear brother.  And thanks for your prayers in my last post. 

You despise Safavids because you don't  know about true history of Shia Islam in Iran which you have relied on biased sources which has been created  by British  colonizers & Zionists  but on the other hand history of Shia Islam in Iran returns back to prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) 's era which it has been started by great companion Salman Muhammadi/Farsi (رضي الله عنه) which since time of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) he has been both Shia of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which he has done Dawah to Shia Islam to Iranians  even undernose of three caliphs as governor  of city of Mada'in  which all Iranian Mawali in Kufa during caliphate of Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) were his Shias which one of examples  of them is martyr  Maytham al-Tamar (رضي الله عنه) who has been  martyred by cursed Ibn Ziyad (la) because  of defending  Imam  Ali(عليه السلام) & calling people  of Kufa to supporting  Imam  Hussain (عليه السلام) .

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Maytham_al-Tammar

Then after defeating  Zaydi uprising  majority of Zaidy leaders have fled to north of Iran & founded Shia Zaidi government  which strongest of these governments has been Buyid Dynasti which was rival of Abbasids which conqured Iran & Baghdad the capital  of Abbasids which after then Abbasids  kings became  their puppets  . 

On the other hand forced migration  of Imam Reza (عليه السلام) has caused more spread of Shia Islam by turning Qom & Mashhad (Tus)  & city of Ray as main shia centers during Abbasid era by his Dawah & migration of his closed relatives to Iran which when Lady Masoumah  has reached to city of Qom , the city of Qom has been a shia dominant  city at time of her martyrdom  & burying  there.

Also Ismailis by support of Fatimids of egypt have great influence  in central  parts of Iran especially  in city of Qazwin whih whole of this part belongs to era before invasion  of Moghuls & falling of Abbasids which great shia scholar Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) has great role in convincing  of Moghul leaders for attacking  Baghdad & fall of Abbasids which still Wahabists are accusing  Shias to betrayal  because  of falling Abbasids  by influence  of Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) on Moghuls  which during Moghul era at Ilkhanid era one of ilkhanid kings by Sheikh Hilli (رضي الله عنه) as most hated person by Ibn Taymiah  has turned from a Sunni to Shia Muslim which ilkhanid king , the Muhammad  Khodabandeh has  announced Shia Islam as official  religion of Iran before Safvids .

Therefore with Safavids or without Safavids Iran & Iranian  people have been Shia muslims since time of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) nevertheless  of all of thicks & thins  because  of focefull rolling of Iran by Sunni kings & rulers which Safavids have finished their tyranny  & oppression  of so called Sunni kings over Iranian Shias .

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On 10/1/2021 at 11:10 AM, Debate follower said:

f you were to draw a circle of 2000 miles radius with Qom being the centre.  You will have covered 95% of the Shia population.  Other 5% are scattered around the world and big chunk of these being the people from the big circle gone abroad!

In Comparison you can see Sunni Moslems scattered all over the Globe and having more than 50 states with overwhelming populations.  This show that they are more dynamic.

This is just shows support of oppressive & tyranic Ummayads & Abbasids  from so called Sunnis & oppression  of Shias by them .

On 10/1/2021 at 11:10 AM, Debate follower said:

2) Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni the author of Kitab al-Kafi. He lived in the era of the Minor Occultation of al-Mahdi.  “It is reported that Ayatullah kulayni spent 20 years compiling Al-Kafi and thought at the end that what he did was in vain, and he wasted 20 years of his life on it, and when his heart was broken, he threw it in the Euphrates River. When he woke up the next morning, Al-Kafi was dry on his desk, and on it was written "al Kafi is sufficient (Kafi) for our Shia" and it was signed by Imam Mahdi.” 

It's just a false story which has been fabricated  by Nasibis likewise Wahabists which nobody especially  any Shia Scholars belive to such childish  story .

On 10/1/2021 at 11:10 AM, Debate follower said:

am aware that Kulayni had stated, in reference to hadith collection: "whatever (hadith) agrees with the Book of God (the Qur'an), accept it. And whatever contradicts it, reject it” If the Twelfth Imam had approved it, how could it be 69% weak hadith!

He reffered to authentic  & strong hadith from infallible  Imam in contrast to fabrications of so called sunni scholars for calling a bunch of fabrications in sunni sources as Sahih books without having a valid source for proving their nonsense .

On 10/1/2021 at 11:10 AM, Debate follower said:

Around 600 years later the “great Imami scholar Zayn al-Dīn al-ʿĀmili, known as ash-Shahīd ath-Thāni (1505-1559), who examined the asanād or the chains of transmission of al-Kāfi's traditions, 5,072 are considered ṣaḥīḥ (sound); 144 are regarded as ḥasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwathaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawi (strong) and 9,485 traditions which are categorized as ḍaʿīf (weak).  [ Selections from Al-Kulayni's Al-Kafi".] 16,199 narrations.”   That’s 31% Sahih!!!!!!!

Mind you, these were verified the Twelfth Imam as Good Enough for 12er Shia! 

Thiis is your assumptions  based on your biased viewpoint  nevetheless our weakest Hadith are in more line with holy Quran than majority  of so called strong hadiths in Sunni sources which your false comparison of percentage  of Sahih Hadiths in books is just a void comparison  because majority  of your hadiths in Sunni sources are in contrast with holy Quran with mixture of Israelits.

On 10/1/2021 at 11:10 AM, Debate follower said:

I am talking about the Majority of the Believers!  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) states:

 

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.”  - Sermon 127 Nahjul Balagha

Twelver Shias interpret the above as: “he who loves me too much” = Ahlul Ghulat (
exaggerators)
“who hates me too much” = khawarij (seceders) and “Who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity.”  As the Twelvers Shias!  And guess what?
They completely forgot approximately 90% of the Muslims – the Sunnis. 

Sunnis also have a lot of hadith where the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) warned not to split into sects and to stick to the great majority of Muslims.

It was Sunnis who have splitted from right path into multiple sects by rejection  of successorship of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after demise of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) which always people in middle path are minority people who ignore 90% of deviated people  from middle  path until majority  deviants  find the right path .

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On 9/30/2021 at 5:26 PM, Debate follower said:

Sunnis take him to be a “Khilafah upon the Prophetic method.”

There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method” and then he remained silent. (Musnad Imam Ahmad)

This is just a fabrication  for justifying  rulership of corrupted  & oppressive  rulers over Muslims also it's clearly against  justice of Allah so it's consequently  a void narration even by Sunni standards.

 

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On 9/30/2021 at 5:26 PM, Debate follower said:

In Sunni hadith Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) will be born when Allah Almighty WILLS and will make his appearance in the Masjid Al Haram in Masjid Makkah-al-Mukarramah when Allah Almighty WILLS.  In the meantime, we are commanded to strive in Allah Almighty’s Way with the means at our disposal.

Salam so if you belive to this then it proves Shia viewpoint because he can have born already by will of Allah , so therefore Allah can keep him alive & young & healthy since time of his bith without affecting with aging likewise Prophet Khizr (عليه السلام) which all Sunnis belive that Prophet Khidr (عليه السلام) is alive & passing too much years has not made him old & sick but on the other hand based on Sunni viewpoint if he will be born in future then he must become mature in short priod of time likewise turning to a 40 years old man just in short period of time likewise born as 40 years old right from womb of his mother which although Allah can do it but it has not mentioned such thing about any prophet except miracle of  coming out of Camel of prophet Saleh (عليه السلام) from within mountain nevertheless it never happened about any humanbeing on the other hand there is nothing about such type of birth event or similar event has mentioned in both of Sunni & Shia hadiths & in addendum birth of savior in future is taken from Zoroastrian belief about birth of "Saoshyant" , the zoroastrian savior in similar fashion of Sunni belief which Sunnis has adopted it to their belif about savior birth  in future.

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Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said, Allah, the Exalted, has ordered three qualities in our Qaem (عليه السلام), which He had ordered to three (previous) apostles. He ordered his birth like the birth of Musa (as); his disappearance like the disappearance of Isa (as); and his longevity like the longevity of Nuh (عليه السلام). Moreover, He made the lifespan of His virtuous servant Khizr a proof of his lifespan.” (Beharul Anwar, volume 51, Chapter 18, tradition 9)

https://knowthemahdi.com/imam-mahdi-as-and-hazrat-khizr-as/

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Long Life of Hazrat Khizr is a proof for Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام)

Shaykh Sudooq (ar) has mentioned a lengthy tradition in his book from Imam Jafar Sadiq (عليه السلام), “And as for the righteous servant, Khizr (عليه السلام), the Almighty Allah bestowed him with a long lifespan not due to the fact that He had made him a Prophet, or because a book was revealed to him, nor that he brought a new Shariat nullifying the previous one, nor that He made him an Imam and required the people to follow him, nor because his obedience was compulsory. Rather it was because it was there in the knowledge of Allah, the Blessed and the High, that during occultation the age of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) would be prolonged to an extent that people would not believe it, and they would deny a long age, He prolonged the age of the righteous servant, Khizr (عليه السلام) without any justification, except that it be a basis for proving the age of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) so that the arguments and proofs of the opponents may be invalidated and that people may not have any argument against Almighty Allah.” (Kamaluddin, volume 2, chapter 33, tradition 51)

https://knowthemahdi.com/imam-mahdi-as-and-hazrat-khizr-as/

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Historical accounts demonstrate that:

1. Luqman lived for 400 years

2. Riyan, father of the king of Egypt, lived for 1,700 years

3. The Prophet Adam lived for 930 or 1000 years

4. The son of the prophet Andreas lived for 969 years

5. Seth, son of Adam, lived for 912 or 940 years

6. Anush, son of Seth, lived for 750 or 960 years

7. Qeinan, son of Seth, lived for 920 years

8. Mahla’il lived for 800 or 960 years

9. Mahla’il’s mother lived for 960 years

10. Shaddad, son of ‘Amir, lived for 900 years

11. Jamshid lived for 850 years

12. ‘Umar, son of ‘Amir, lived for 800 years

13. Lamech lived for 777 or 790 years

14. The Prophet Hud lived for 760 years

15. The Prophet Solomon lived for 712 years

16. Egyptian king lived for 700 years

17. Fereidun lived for 500 years

18. Darid, son of Zaid, lived for 456 years

19. ‘Amr, son of Hujjah Rumi, lived for 400 years

20. Zuhair, son of Abdullah Kananah, lived for 420 years

21. Pharaoh lived for 411 years

22. Rabi‘, son of Saba‘, lived for 380 years

23. Abdul-Masih Nasrani lived for 350 years

24. Aktham, son of Safar Asadi, lived for 330 years

25. The Prophet Jethro/Shu‘aib lived for 240 years

26. Sirat, son of Sa‘id, lived for 220 years

27. Safieddine Riyahi lived for 200 years…and so on.15

15.For more information, see Shaikh Saduq, Kamal-ul-Din, p. 555-onward; Ali ibn Hussain Ma‘sudi, Murawwij-a-Dhahab, vol.1, p. 338-onward; Allameh Majlisi, Bihar-ul-Anwar, vol.51, pp. 227-286; Sayyid Muhammad Kazim Qazwini, Imam al-Mahdi, p. 276.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/prolonged-lifespan-imam-mahdi-aj-zainab-musawi/prolonged

18 hours ago, Debate follower said:

In short, with the Guidance of the Twelfth Imam 12er Shias should have been the Guiding light for others to follow. You don’t hear anything positive about Shia involvement.

You must cure your Safavid phobia however despite of all efforts of anti Shia people & groups we have survived until now which after fall of Shah we have had great achievement a strong country which is only threat to Zionist Israel & it's wahabi ally as KSA or any anti shia group .

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Conquerors Of Kheibar’: Iran Begins Military Drills On Border With Azerbaijan

Iranian National Army has commenced military exercises near the country’s border with Azerbaijan, marking an apparent display of power.

Iranian National Army has commenced military exercises near the country’s border with Azerbaijan, marking an apparent display of power as regional conflict continues to escalate. On Friday, Iran’s state television showed tanks, helicopters, artillery and soldiers being deployed in unspecific areas in northwestern Iran. Later, the army disclosed that as a part of their drills named 'Conquerors of Kheibar', they were testing long-range missiles and other “achievements” but stopped short of stating a timeframe for the exercises. 

 

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'Zionist presence'
Last Thursday, Iran’s newly appointed foreign minister Hossein Amirabdollahian spoke to Azeri envoy regarding the matter and cited the zionist presence in the area as a reason behind the military drills. “We do not tolerate the presence and activity against our national security of the Zionist regime, or Israel, next to our borders. “And we will carry out any necessary action in this regard,” Amirabdollahian said. Although he asserted that  Azeri-Iranian relationship were “important”, he said that Tehran had the “right” to conduct military drills.  

READ | UNGA: Iran wants US & other countries to follow nuclear weapon disarmament obligations
Speaking at a press conference earlier, a spokesperson for the Islamic Republic’s Foreign Ministry had asserted that the drills were a question of Iran's “sovereignty” and added that the country will not tolerate “presence of zionist regime near its international borders.” Indirectly accusing its adversary of intrusion, Saeed Khatibzadeh had asserted that Tehran will take all measures it deems necessary to safeguard “national security.” 

https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/rest-of-the-world-news/conquerors-of-kheibar-iran-begins-military-drills-on-border-with-azerbaijan.html

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VIDEO: Latest achievements of IRGC Aerospace Force

The Third of Khordad air defense system which has been completely designed and manufactured by Iranian experts was unveiled in the presence of the Iranian Supreme Leader. The Third of Khordad air defense system has been manufactured in 18 months. It has a range of 50 kilometers and it can concurrently trace four targets and simultaneously fire eight missiles.

Other achievements of the IRGC Aerospace Force were Tabas air defense system, a command-and-control center, different Ra'ad 1 and Ra'ad 2 air defense systems, different radars, including Bashir and Kavosh, and electronic warfare command-and-control center were also displayed in the exhibition.

The Iranian Supreme Leader praised the IRGC Aerospace Force commanders and personnel for their achievements, and said, "This exhibition gives the message of power and inner capability to our officials announcing that 'we can'."  

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/158505/VIDEO-Latest-achievements-of-IRGC-Aerospace-Force

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Jonah’s confinement
The Qur’an has also mentioned the story of Jonah, who was in the whale’s stomach for some time. Jonah was a divine guide, but he was away from his own nation. How can we justify his absence? The Qur’an is clear in this regard: ‘We sent him to a [community of] hundred thousand or more.’ (Q37:147) This verse makes it clear that he was sent as a prophet before his confinement. But he was there for specific reasons. We must first know what exactly the ‘hundred thousand’ refers to. Does it refer to the entire population who lived before Jonah or only to those who had repented to God when faced with punishment?

https://en.shafaqna.com/87569/who-is-imam-al-mahdi-as/

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SAOSHYANT . The Avestan term saoshyant ("future benefactor"; MPers., sōshans ) designates the savior of the world, who will arrive at a future time to redeem humankind. The concept of the future savior is one of the fundamental notions of Zoroastrianism, together with that of dualism; it appears as early as in the Gāthās. Zarathushtra (Zoroaster), as prophet of the religion, is himself a Saoshyant, one who performs his works for the Frashōkereti, the end of the present state of the world, when existence will be "rehabilitated" and "made splendid."

 

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Later Zoroastrian tradition developed this notion into a true eschatological myth and expanded the number of Saoshyants from one to three. All the saviors are born from the seed of Zarathushtra, which is preserved through the ages in Lake Kansaoya (identified with present-day Lake Helmand, in Seistan, Iran), protected by 99,999 fravashi s, or guardian spirits. 

 

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the names of the three virgins (Yashts 13) who are impregnated with the seed of Zarathushtra when they bathe in Lake Kansaoya and give birth to the Saoshyants, are equally speculative. Each of these Saoshyants will arrive in the last three millenia, initiating a new age and a new cycle of existence; Astvatereta will appear in the third and final millennium to save humankind.

 

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A similar concept, that of the future Buddha, Maitreya, was most likely indebted to it, and Christian messianism can trace its roots to the same source.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/saoshyant

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Saoshyant

 

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

1) So, anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegiance 2) and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it 3) And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar
4) So, if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam 5)  then it is
with the pleasure of Allah

Indeed, Islam was complete before the Blessed Prophet passed away. Hz. Ali in Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) gave seal of approval of his predecessors election as Imams as per with the pleasure of Allah.  Thus making the truthfulness of those Khulafa Rashidun unquestionable.

This is totaly wrong coclusion because

1.Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has never recognized as legitimate ruler but because people have given allegiance to them , so consequently for avoiding happening bloodshed & damaging muslim community he tolerated them .

2.It's totally wrong again because everyone in anytime can oppose anything .

3. Such things is just your assumption for justifying election of three caliph which it's not approven  by holy Quran neither any tradition from prophet Muhammad (pbu)

4.It's totally wrong because by your logic people could anyone instead of prophet Muhammad (pbu) as prophet likewise choosing Musaylima by a shura (consultation) from Muhajirin & Ansar  then it would be by pleasure of Shaitan (la)as choosing three caliphs nevertheless you will call it brutal choosing of caliphs by Safavids :blabla: by reffering to your favorite wikipedia link :D

 

 

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On 9/26/2021 at 7:11 PM, Debate follower said:

, then Qiyas (Analogical reason).  This is based on this hadith:

Qiyas has no place in Islamic jurisprudence which first one who has used it has been cursed Shaitan which leads to his astraying & cursing then second person who has used it for jurisprudence has been Abuhanifa who used it for inserting his innovations (Bid'as) & making his sect ,so there anyone likewise Abuhanifa uses "Qiyas (Analogical reason)" is an innovator & follower of footsteps of cursed Shaitan nevertheless you will not accept because it's just a Safavid innovation.:grin:

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In usul al-fiqh, qiyas refers to the application of the ruling of an issue to an analogous issue on which there is no ruling in religious texts. For example, religious texts explicitly forbid the drinking of the grape wine, but there is no text regarding the ruling of the date wine. Qiyas can be employed here by saying that the grape wine is forbidden because of its intoxication, and since the date wine is intoxicating, it should be forbidden too.[1]

It should be noted that "qiyas" in fiqh and usul al-fiqh has a different meaning from that in logics. The qiyas in usul al-fiqh has the same meaning as "tamthil" (analogy) in logics. In logics, however, "qiyas" is used to refer to syllogisms which are valid forms of arguments, but in logics, the analogy, or "qiyas" in usul al-fiqh, is not considered as valid.[2]

 

 

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 there is a hadith from Imam 'Ali (a) cited in Tuhaf al-'uqul: "do not make qiyas (analogy) in the religion, because the religion cannot be measured by qiyas".[9] There is also a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a) according to which if qiyas is made in the religion, then the religion will be wiped out.[10] But Sunni scholars maintain that qiyas is valid. The first person who made an extensive use of qiyas in fiqh was Abu Hanifa. However, it is said that the use of qiyas had precedents prior to Abu Hanifa. For example, the first, the second, and the third caliphs employed qiyas in issues on which there was no explicit ruling.[

 

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Imam al-Sadiq's (a) Debate over the Qiyas

In his book, al-Ikhtisas, al-Shaykh al-Mufid reported a debate between Abu Hanifa and Imam al-Sadiq (a) over the validity of qiyas. Imam al-Sadiq's (a) arguments against qiyas are as follows: Imam al-Sadiq (a) said, "O Abu Hanifa! Which one do you think is more significant; adultery or murder?" He said, of course, murder. The Imam said, "so why did God rule that the testimony of two men suffices in the case of murder, while for adultery the testimony of four men is required? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas? O Abu Hanifa! Which one is worse, the abandoning of the fast or the abandoning of the prayer?" He said, of course, the abandoning of the prayer. The Imam said, "so, why should a woman perform the qada' of her fasts during her menstrual periods, but it is not obligatory for her to perform the qada' of her prayers? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas? Woe to you, Abu Hanifa! Are women weaker in business or men?" He said, of course, women. The Imam said, "so, why did God allocate two shares of heritage to men and only one share for women? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas? O Abu Hanifa! Is one's feces dirtier or his semen?" He said, of course, feces. The Imam said, "so, why did God rule that it is sufficient to wash the affected area to clean the feces, but for the semen, He required ghusl? How can this be justified in terms of qiyas?"[14]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Qiyas

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