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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate ?

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17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

He is Omnipresent and never sleeps or gets tired.

Allah is Sufficient for us! Most Excellent is He in Whom we trust!

 

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 "The world subsists due to his survival." "Due to his blessings, the creatures are sustained." "On account of his existence, the heavens and the earth remain intact." (Dua-e-Adeelah, Mafaatihul Jinaan, p.58) It is far fetched to accept that each and every creature of this universe is deriving benefit from Allah's grace while the 'perfect being', the 'representative of Allah' is deprived of it. This is because the bounties from the 'fountainhead of (all) bounties' are being transmitted solely due to this divine proof. Therefore, not only was the Hujjat of Allah present before the creation, but he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation. Traditions reiterate this point: 'The divine proof (al-hujjah) was before the creation, is with the creation and will remain after the creation.' (Behaarul Anwaar; vol. 23 p. 38, tradition 66) Whatever bounties this universe is witnessing and all future bounties, are purely due to the Hujjat of Allah. Had he not been there, the universe would have been deprived of Allah's Benevolence. The following tradition of Imam ((عليه السلام)) explains the above fact: 'This world will disintegrate if even for a single day there is no Imam from our Ahle Bait ((عليه السلام).)' (Behaarul Anwaar; vol. 23 p. 37, tradition 64) Hence even if one single man is alive on the earth, it means that an Imam is present somewhere. In fact, the famous tradition clearly states, 'If two people are alive on the face of the earth then one of them will be an Imam.' 

 

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Imam (a.t.f.s.) is the means for the stability of the earth and skies. He is the axis that keeps the earth secure and poised. His existence serves as the decisive factor in the stability and permanence of this universe. In reality everything is due to him. Allah has ordered us to be appreciative to our parents because they are the medium for our coming into existence. For this momentous favor, he has commanded us to accord our highest respect to them, always do good to them and obey them at all times. Only then can one imagine our responsibilities towards our Imam (a.t.f.s), the extent to which we have to be thankful to him, obey him unconditionally and try to recompense him for all his favors with goodness. The Holy Quran says "And when your Lord made it known 'If your are grateful then I will certainly give you more, and if you are ungrateful (then) My chastisement is very severe.'" (Surah Ibrahim, Verse 7) If this life and the things related to it are bounties then the greatest bounty is that venerable personality due to whom we receive these bounties. 

https://www.erfan.ir/english/34659.html

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21 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I don’t know why you need help form him.  He is NOT Omnipresent. He is human. As you claim that he is alive so, he in this world and him being human I am sure he needs to sleep every day. Right?  Why disturb him for your needs when Allah Almighty is Sufficient for us! And He is Omnipresent and never sleeps or gets tired.

Allah is Sufficient for us! Most Excellent is He in Whom we trust!

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 "The world subsists due to his survival." "Due to his blessings, the creatures are sustained." "On account of his existence, the heavens and the earth remain intact." (Dua-e-Adeelah, Mafaatihul Jinaan, p.58) It is far fetched to accept that each and every creature of this universe is deriving benefit from Allah's grace while the 'perfect being', the 'representative of Allah' is deprived of it. This is because the bounties from the 'fountainhead of (all) bounties' are being transmitted solely due to this divine proof. Therefore, not only was the Hujjat of Allah present before the creation, but he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.

 

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Imam (a.t.f.s.) is the means for the stability of the earth and skies. He is the axis that keeps the earth secure and poised. His existence serves as the decisive factor in the stability and permanence of this universe. In reality everything is due to him.

I am truly amazed. All I can say is that Allah is Self-Sufficient, both with His Divine Essence and with attributes, and is in need of nothing or anybody's assistance in any way.

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Imam Mahdi  (aj) is caliph of Allah so if you mean being divine is equal to being God then it will be  wrong about him but on the other hand he has all divine attributes  by permission  of Allah

Is this special exclusivity only for him?  Where does the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stand in comparison to this status?

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15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am truly amazed. All I can say is that Allah is Self-Sufficient, both with His Divine Essence and with attributes, and is in need of nothing or anybody's assistance in any way.

Salam It has no relation  to claiming that Allah needs "anybody's assistance " but on the other hand everything  has been created by Allah through light of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & his Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) which in any era whole of creation  is dependent  to existence  of one of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) which now whole of creation is dependent  to existance  of Imam Mahdi  (aj) due to will of Allah while Allah is independent  from everyone  & everything  but on the other hand Imam Mahdi (aj) is the most dependant  creation  to Allah which whole of creation is dependent  to Allah through  him.

15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Is this special exclusivity only for him?  Where does the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stand in comparison to this status?

It's about all of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) from first creation of Allah as prophet Muhammad  (pbu) to Imam  Mahdi (aj) which Imam Mahdi (aj) has been  described exactly same as prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) in all of aspects  in both of sunni & Shia narration by prophet Muhammad  (pbu) himself which all infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) have confrmed  that prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) is superior  to them & rest of prophets.

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52 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam It has no relation  to claiming that Allah needs "anybody's assistance " but on the other hand everything  has been created by Allah through light of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & his Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) which in any era whole of creation  is dependent  to existence  of one of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) which now whole of creation is dependent  to existance  of Imam Mahdi  (aj) due to will of Allah while Allah is independent  from everyone  & everything  but on the other hand Imam Mahdi (aj) is the most dependant  creation  to Allah which whole of creation is dependent  to Allah through  him.

It's about all of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) from first creation of Allah as prophet Muhammad  (pbu) to Imam  Mahdi (aj) which Imam Mahdi (aj) has been  described exactly same as prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) in all of aspects  in both of sunni & Shia narration by prophet Muhammad  (pbu) himself which all infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) have confrmed  that prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) is superior  to them & rest of prophets.

You are creating a whole new sect of Islam lol. Please read the whole Quran brother. 

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1 hour ago, Guest Reply said:

You are creating a whole new sect of Islam lol. Please read the whole Quran brother.

this is shia belief in contrast with  your selfmade sect by  cherrypicking from Holy Quran & denying divinity of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام).

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam It has no relation  to claiming that Allah needs "anybody's assistance " but on the other hand everything  has been created by Allah through light of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & his Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) which in any era whole of creation  is dependent  to existence  of one of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام)

Wa ‘Alaykum Salaam – May be this is a Shia belief or exclusively 12er Shia belief, just to elevate the people they love to level which they never claimed for themselves. 

They have not shown Allah the reverence He deserves. Surely Allah is All-Powerful, Almighty. 73: al-Hajj

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

which now whole of creation is dependent  to existance  of Imam Mahdi  (aj) due to will of Allah while Allah is independent  from everyone  & everything  but on the other hand Imam Mahdi (aj) is the most dependant  creation  to Allah which whole of creation is dependent  to Allah through  him.

So, tacitly you are admitting that there is an intermediatory between Allah Almighty and His creation?!!!!!!!!!?

And say, “All praise is for Allah, Who has never had ˹any˺ offspring; nor does He have a partner in ˹governing˺ the kingdom; nor is He pathetic, needing a protector. And revere Him immensely.”  111al-Isra’

The Blessed Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Allah (glorified and exalted be He) said:

“I am so self-sufficient that I am in no need of having an associate. Thus, he who does an action for someone else's sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me.” Sahih Muslim (also by Ibn Majah).

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It's about all of Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) from first creation of Allah as prophet Muhammad  (pbu) to Imam  Mahdi (aj) which Imam Mahdi (aj) has been  described exactly same as prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) in all of aspects  in both of sunni & Shia narration by prophet Muhammad  (pbu) himself which all infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) have confrmed  that prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) is superior  to them & rest of prophets.

Imam Mahdi (may Allah be pleased with him) in Sunni narrations has been described as has having same physical features and same name ‘Muhammad ibn Abdullah’ as that of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  Apart from that he shares nothing of status with the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).  He will a Khalifah on the methodology of the Prophet hood just like the first four Khalifahs (may Allah be pleased with them all).

Indeed, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is superior to all the Prophets (peace be upon them). And he is the Imam/Chief/leader of the Prophets (peace be upon them).

5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

this is shia belief in contrast with  your selfmade sect by  cherrypicking from Holy Quran & denying divinity of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام).

I am rendered speechless!

And serve Allah and do not associate anything with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbour of (your) kin and the alien neighbour, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful 36 an-Nisa’

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3 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I am rendered speechless!

And serve Allah and do not associate anything with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbour of (your) kin and the alien neighbour, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful 36 an-Nisa

Speechless was I. 
 

but sometimes some people are stubborn/prideful to consider/try/or even bother.

so if a ‘Muslim’ doesn’t want to read the Quran, or claims I am cherry picking, without putting effort into trying to understand the verse of Allah, in which he claims to be his Lord, then there’s nothing else you can do for a person! 
 

if Allah wants to guide him he will be guided. But he doesn’t know what he follows, man made traditions

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16 hours ago, Debate follower said:

So, tacitly you are admitting that there is an intermediatory between Allah Almighty and His creation?!!!!!!!!!?

And say, “All praise is for Allah, Who has never had ˹any˺ offspring; nor does He have a partner in ˹governing˺ the kingdom; nor is He pathetic, needing a protector. And revere Him immensely.”  111al-Isra’

The Blessed Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Allah (glorified and exalted be He) said:

“I am so self-sufficient that I am in no need of having an associate. Thus, he who does an action for someone else's sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me.” Sahih Muslim (also by Ibn Majah).

In Shia Islam  we believe to both of it as we agree we that there is no barrier between us & Allah for asking help from him but on the other hand Allah has ordered us to do it through 14 infallible  intermediators as prophet Muhammad  (pbu) & his blessed daughter & 12 infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) which current mediator is Imam Mahdi (aj) which we receive  blessing  of Allah through him because  Allah himself has preferred this procedure for us instead of following tyrants likewise MBS .

16 hours ago, Debate follower said:

He will a Khalifah on the methodology of the Prophet hood just like the first four Khalifahs (may Allah be pleased with them all).

I totally  disagree with this because  Imam Mahdi (aj) will return Islam  to it's original teaching of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) which he will clean it from innovations of three caliphs  before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which him & his two sons have been martyred in way of cleaning Islam from Innovations  by enemies of true & original Islam   & he will also clean it from innovations  of cursed Ummayids & Abbasids  & Ibn Taymiah & M. Abdulwahab .

16 hours ago, Debate follower said:

And serve Allah and do not associate anything with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbour of (your) kin and the alien neighbour, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful 36 an-Nisa

You always repeat same rhetoric about "do not associate anything with Him " nevertheless you can't  recognize who is Wasila/intermediator & mix it with your deviated definition  of Shirkology.:book:

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13 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Speechless was I. 
 

but sometimes some people are stubborn/prideful to consider/try/or even bother.

so if a ‘Muslim’ doesn’t want to read the Quran, or claims I am cherry picking, without putting effort into trying to understand the verse of Allah, in which he claims to be his Lord, then there’s nothing else you can do for a person! 
 

if Allah wants to guide him he will be guided. But he doesn’t know what he follows, man made traditions

Tawassul .. Does Shia Worship Ahlulbait as By Biskit - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRrYXk-3i_0

Tawassul: Do Shias Worship Idols? | BISKIT | English

https://www.shiatv.net/video/1604159847

Do Shias Worship Ahlulbayt? | Shaykh Bahmanpour | English

https://www.shiatv.net/video/217748875

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235072096-thinking-of-leaving-shiism/?page=4

 

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10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

There you go again. 
 

I give your verses of the Quran (your lords own words) 

And you bring NORMAL human being opinions. 

I promise to never give you an opinion, own interpretation without acknowledging that it’s an interpretation. 
you follow interpretations that have been implemented into religion, without you knowing. And without the leaders knowing. 

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On 9/11/2021 at 11:06 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Therefore, not only was the Hujjat of Allah present before the creation, but he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.

How can anyone exist before Creation? So how can ‘Hujjat of Allah’ be there before Creation?

So ‘Hujjat of Allah’ was “present before creation, he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.” Are you not claiming that he in Omnipresent?

You are putting him on same level equal to Allah Almighty!!!!!!
Before the Creation there nobody else but Allah Almighty!
By your logic, if 12th Imam was there before Creation – he was not created because he was there before the creation!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are putting him on par with Allah Almighty!! In you previous post you made him and others Divine too!!!!

I hope you can you see how wrong you are?

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

In Shia Islam  we believe to both of it as we agree we that there is no barrier between us & Allah for asking help from him

But earlier you had stated that whole Creation is DEPENDENT on Allah him!  You had put him as a barrier between “Us and Allah Almighty”!  See for yourself!

On 9/12/2021 at 6:41 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

existance  of Imam Mahdi  (aj) due to will of Allah while Allah is independent  from everyone  & everything  but on the other hand Imam Mahdi (aj) is the most dependant  creation  to Allah which whole of creation is dependent  to Allah through  him.

Very confusing, isn’t it?   Yes, see what happens when one complicates religion with additional add-ons!

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

but on the other hand Allah has ordered us to do it through 14 infallible  intermediators as prophet Muhammad  (pbu) & his blessed daughter & 12 infallible  Imams (عليه السلام) which current mediator is Imam Mahdi (aj) which we receive  blessing  of Allah through him because  Allah himself has preferred this procedure for us

Please show me from the Blessed Qur’an where is this order!   Clear-cut order, not just some mambo jumbo.

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16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

instead of following tyrants likewise MBS .

You always bring MBS a lot into your arguments.  I really don’t know why?  You are just exposing your own ignorance. 

Now, can Sunnis claim that Shias follow Shah of iran or his father in their religion?  Please grow up from childish taunts.

Your are talking about MBS as if he is promoting Sunni Islam.  He is a tyrant just as much as your Shah was.

Let’s talk instead talk about Safavids, and how they used brutal force to convert Iranians to Shiaism.

This is history of your forefathers. How they were forced to leave their faith by suffering under draconian methods.

Now, would you claim that this was done under the watch of your 12th Imam?

Methods of converting Iran

(Shah) Ismail consolidated his rule over the country and launched a thorough and, at times, brutal campaign to convert the majority Sunni population to Twelver Shiism and thus transform the religious landscape of Iran.[21]

His methods of converting Iran included:

1) Imposing Shiism as the state and mandatory religion for the whole nation and much forcible conversion of Iranian Sufi Sunnis to Shiism. [22][23][24] *

2) He reintroduced the Sadr (Arabic, leader) – an office that was responsible for supervising religious institutions and endowments. With a view to transforming Iran into a Shiite state, the Sadr was also assigned the task of disseminating Twelver doctrine. [25] *

3) He destroyed Sunni mosques. This was even noted by Tomé Pires, the Portuguese ambassador to China who visited Iran in 1511–12, who when referring to Ismail noted: "He (i.e. Shah Ismail) reforms our churches, destroys the houses of all Moors who follow (the Sunnah of) Muhammad…"[26] *

4) He enforced the ritual and compulsory cursing of the first three Sunni Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman) as usurpers, from all mosques, disbanded Sunni Tariqahs and seized their assets, used state patronage to develop Shia shrines, institutions and religious art and imported Shia scholars to replace Sunni scholars.[27][28][29] *

5) He killed Sunnis and destroyed and desecrated their graves and mosques. This caused the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II (who initially congratulated Ismail on his victories) to advise and ask the young monarch (in a "fatherly" manner) to stop the anti-Sunni actions. However, Ismail was strongly anti-Sunni, ignored the Sultan's warning, and continued to spread the Shia faith by the sword.[30][31] *

6) He persecuted, imprisoned, exiled, and executed stubbornly resistant Sunnis.[32][33] *

7) With the establishment of Safavid rule, there was a very raucous and colourful, almost carnival-like holiday on 26 Dhu al-Hijjah (or alternatively, 9 Rabi' al-awwal) celebrating the Eid-e-Shuja' or Celebration of assassination of Caliph Umar. The highlight of the day was making an effigy of Umar to be cursed, insulted, and finally burned.
However, as relations between Iran and Sunni countries improved, the holiday was no longer observed (at least officially).
[34]*

8) In 1501, (Shah) Ismail invited all the Shia living outside Iran to come to Iran and be assured of protection from the Sunni majority.[35] *

*[22] Modern Iran: roots and results of revolution]. Nikki R Keddie, Yann Richard, pp. 13, 20
*[23] The Encyclopaedia of world history: ancient, medieval, and modern. Peter N. Stearns, William Leonard Langer, p. 360.
*[24] Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Steven R Ward, pg.43
*[25] Iran: a short history: from Islamization to the present. Monika Gronke, p. 91.
*[26] The Judeo-Persian poet ‘Emrānī and his "Book of treasure": ‘Emrānī's Ganǰ… 'Emrānī, David Yeroushalmi, p. 20.
*[27] A new introduction to Islam. Daniel W Brown, p. 191.
*[28] Encyclopaedic Historiography of the Muslim World. NK Singh, A Samiuddin, p. 90.
*[29] The Cambridge illustrated history of the Islamic world. Francis Robinson, p. 72.
*[30] Immortal: A Military History of Iran and Its Armed Forces. Steven R. Ward, p. 44.
*[31] Iran and America: re-kindling a love lost]. Badi Badiozamani, pp. 174–5.
*[32] The Cambridge illustrated history of the Islamic world. Francis Robinson, p. 72.
*[33] Iraq: Old Land, New Nation in Conflict. William Spencer, p. 51.
*[34] Culture and customs of Iran. Elton L Daniel, 'Alī Akbar Mahdī, p. 185
*[35] Iraq: Old Land, New Nation in Conflict. William Spencer, p. 51.

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam  - I dare you to read this all with clear heart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

Muhammad Baqir Majlisi – He is the architect of many Shia practices now.

Under the guidance of Muhammad Baqir Majlisi (1616–98, one of the most important Shiite clerics of all time), who devoted himself to (among other things) the eradication of Sunnism in Iran,[67]* the Safavid state made major efforts, in the 17th century to Persianize Shiite practice and culture in order to facilitate its spread in Iran among its Sunni populace.[68]* It was only under Majlisi that Shi'a Islam truly took hold among the masses.[69]*

,[67]* The Encyclopedia of world history: ancient, medieval, and modern. Peter N. Stearns, William Leonard Langer, p. 363
[68]* The Arab Shi'a: The Forgotten Muslims. Graham E. Fuller, Rend Rahim Francke, p. 76.
[69]* Molavi, Afshin, The Soul of Iran, Norton, 2005, p. 170.

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16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I totally  disagree with this because  Imam Mahdi (aj) will return Islam  to it's original teaching of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) which he will clean it from innovations of three caliphs  before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which him & his two sons have been martyred in way of cleaning Islam from Innovations  by enemies of true & original Islam

So, what has he done or achieved so far?  Was not it his mission to lead Humanity to the Truth? What has he been doing for last 1200 years???

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

& he will also clean it from innovations  of cursed Ummayids & Abbasids  & Ibn Taymiah & M. Abdulwahab .

You are in for a surprise; he actually will clean up the mess created by Baqir Majlisi.

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You always repeat same rhetoric about "do not associate anything with Him " nevertheless you can't  recognize who is Wasila/intermediator & mix it with your deviated definition  of Shirkology.:book:

In link given by you above there is an incident given where Hz. Umar bin Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) performed wasilah through the Blessed Prophet’s (peace be upon him) uncle Al Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) for rain.

"In the year 17 `Umar enlarged the Prophetic Mosque. That year there was a drought in the Hijaz. It was named the Year of Cinders (`am al-Ramada). `Umar prayed for rain for the people by means of al-`Abbas. Ibn Sa`d narrated from [the Sahabi] Niyar al-Aslami that when `Umar came out to pray for rain, he came out wearing the cloaks (burd) of the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace. Ibn `Awn narrated that `Umar took al-`Abbas's hand and raised it up, saying, 'O Allah, we seek a means to You with the uncle of Your Prophet to ask that You drive away from us the drought and water us with rain'...." Al-Suyuti mentions the context of this event in his Tarikh al-Khulafa' (Beirut, 1992 Ahmad Fares ed. p. 140):

Note: Hz. Al Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) was alive.

More importantly Hz. Umar bin Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) did not go to the grave of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) to perform the Wasilah!!!!! And it must have less than 50 meters away!!!

Wasalaam
 

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5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

How can anyone exist before Creation? So how can ‘Hujjat of Allah’ be there before Creation?

So ‘Hujjat of Allah’ was “present before creation, he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.” Are you not claiming that he in Omnipresent?

Come come now—all mainstream Sunnis (you obviously adhere to Salafism or one of its offshoots) acknowledge sentient beings being brought into existence in a timeless, placeless region before the creation of the physical universe—the original covenant made between Allah and mankind which marked the beginning of initial creation according to Islamic theology—this took place before the creation of the heavens and the earth—Allah assembled all of creation and informed them of the truth of His existence—all Muslims believe in this event.

5 hours ago, Debate follower said:

So, what has he done or achieved so far?  Was not it his mission to lead Humanity to the Truth? What has he been doing for last 1200 years???

He has been studying, planning, observing, assessing and he (a) will arise on the command of his Lord—he abides by Allah's timetable and not by your or my schedule.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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As you said, All Muslims believe in this event, I do the same.  Only Allah Almighty has no beginning.  So, the Creation started with the creation of spiritual world.  Right?  Physical creation followed later. agreed?

Our dear brother, Ashvazdanghe, seems to have given 12th Imam exclusiveness of being born before creation.

On 9/11/2021 at 2:47 PM, Debate follower said:

Therefore, not only was the Hujjat of Allah present before the creation, but he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.

Can you decipher the above for me, please?

That’s why I asked him.

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

How can anyone exist before Creation? So how can ‘Hujjat of Allah’ be there before Creation?

So ‘Hujjat of Allah’ was “present before creation, he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.” Are you not claiming that he in Omnipresent?

You are putting him on same level equal to Allah Almighty!!!!!!
Before the Creation there nobody else but Allah Almighty!
By your logic, if 12th Imam was there before Creation – he was not created because he was there before the creation!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are putting him on par with Allah Almighty!! In you previous post you made him and others Divine too!!!!

I hope you can you see how wrong you are?

Earlier he had claimed divinity for Muhammad  (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) – You seem to agree with this too, as you approved his post claiming this.  Is the common 12er Shia belief?

On 9/12/2021 at 9:01 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

this is shia belief in contrast with  your selfmade sect by  cherrypicking from Holy Quran & denying divinity of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام).

By the way, I am just a mainstream Sunni, right in the middle. :)

2 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

He has been studying, planning, observing, assessing and he (a) will arise on the command of his Lord—he abides by Allah's timetable and not by your or my schedule.

Thanks for letting me know and correcting me, I was always under the false impression that he is actively guiding and helping everyone just like the sun behind the clouds benefits the Earth.

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8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

How can anyone exist before Creation? So how can ‘Hujjat of Allah’ be there before Creation?

So ‘Hujjat of Allah’ was “present before creation, he is present along with the creation and will be present after the creation.” Are you not claiming that he in Omnipresent?

You are putting him on same level equal to Allah Almighty!!!!!!
Before the Creation there nobody else but Allah Almighty!
By your logic, if 12th Imam was there before Creation – he was not created because he was there before the creation!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are putting him on par with Allah Almighty!! In you previous post you made him and others Divine too!!!!

I hope you can you see how wrong you are?

 

Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Muhammad ibn Shu‘ayb from ‘Imran ibn Ishaq al-Za‘farani from Muhammad ibn Marwan who has said the following:

“I heard abu ‘Abd Allah ((عليه السلام)) say, ‘Allah has created us from the light of His greatness. Thereafter He shaped our form from a preserved and hidden clay under the Throne. Then He made that light to reside in that clay. We were then a Nooraani (light) creature of the human being species. He has not placed anything as a share from that which we were created in anyone else. He has created the spirits of our Shi‘a from our clay and their bodies from a preserved and hidden clay from below that clay. Allah has not placed anything as a share of that which they are created in anyone except the prophets. Therefore, our followers and we became the people. The rest of the people became riffraff for the fire and to the fire.”

[Source: Al-Kaafi, Vol.1 Pg. 389]

Takne from: Marefate AhleBait ((عليه السلام)).com

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Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja’far from abu al-Hassan Musa ((عليه السلام)) who has said the following:

Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام)) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshiped. Had we not been in existence Allah would not have been worshiped.

[Source: Al-Kafi, Vol. 1 Pg. 193]

[Note: Authentic Hadees as per Chain of narrations. Mirat Al-Uqool – Allama Majlisi Vol. 2, Pg. 349]

https://en.shafaqna.com/48441/ahlulbaits-a-s-before-adam-a-s/

 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Can you decipher the above for me, please?

That’s why I asked him.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa902

https://www.erfan.ir/english/25490.html

https://www.erfan.ir/english/89922.html

 
 
 
8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Please show me from the Blessed Qur’an where is this order!   Clear-cut order, not just some mambo jumbo.

List of Quranic Verses about Imam al-Mahdi (a)

https://en.wikishia.net/view/List_of_Quranic_Verses_about_Imam_al-Mahdi_(a)

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=23&lid=1&catid=30154&mid=324619

https://knowthemahdi.com/verses-of-holy-quran-by-topic-on-imam-mahdi-as/

https://www.erfan.ir/english/17180.html

 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Thanks for letting me know and correcting me, I was always under the false impression that he is actively guiding and helping everyone just like the sun behind the clouds benefits the Earth.

He has mentioned some of actions of Imam Mahdi (aj) during his occultation  which he does all of them likewise the  sun behind clouds but he is neither in limbo nor passive state in a cave as you batalanty & your comrades   have claimed it  but on the other hand he manages everything  from behind curtain your statement is likewise because you don't  see Allah so he doesn't  has any control on your life likewise Jews which have said hands of Allah is tied up so he can't do anything in their life but in contrast Allah can do anything although  nobody  can see him , so therefore Imam Mahdi (aj) as his caliph on earth can do anything nevertheless  he is in occultation  likewuise thesun behind clouds.

Quote

 The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief. (64)

 

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

he came out wearing the cloaks (burd) of the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace. Ibn `Awn narrated that `Umar took al-`Abbas's hand and raised it up, saying, 'O Allah, we seek a means to You with the uncle of Your Prophet

he even has used cloack of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) where he has been in Medina near to tomb of prophet  Muhammad (pbu) which for asking intermediary  from him & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) it's not necessary  to be besides of their grave which even currently your claimed 50 meters away from his tomb is considered as as area of prophet  (pbu) which Ayesha forcefully & by violation  of share of inheritance  has buried his father & Umar besides prophet  . Therefore according to your standards Ayesha & Umar have been grave worshipers  because Ayesha buried his father by permission  of Umar  & Umar besides of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) althought  all of them according to Abubakr denial of inheriting worldy matters from prophet (pbu) all of them have stolen prophet (pbu) inheritance  from his progeny but they have benefited  from worldly  inheritance  of prophet (pbu) likewise burying  besides him but on the other hand Ayesha has not allowed  burying  Imam  Hasan (عليه السلام) as his legal inheritor besides of prophet  Muhammad (pbu)

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Let’s talk instead talk about Safavids, and how they used brutal force to convert Iranians to Shiaism.

This is history of your forefathers. How they were forced to leave their faith by suffering under draconian methods.

Now, would you claim that this was done under the watch of your 12th Imam?

Methods of converting Iran

I have refuted all of itwhich you couldn't  refute me but you due to your short memory is likewise memory of golden fish you have repeated it likewise  a broken recod.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

By the way, I am just a mainstream Sunni, right in the middle. :)

You are a typical  Salafi under heavy influence  of Nasibi wahabi propaganda  against  Shias.:einstein::book:

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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Let’s talk instead talk about Safavids, and how they used brutal force to convert Iranians to Shiaism.

Or let's talk about Wahabism, and how it erased all traces of tawasul that was present in the whole Arabian peninsula, as it was in Africa, Europe and Asia beforehand. 

Wait, it seems the whole Sunni World was kafir until the 19th century? 

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You always bring MBS a lot into your arguments.  I really don’t know why?  You are just exposing your own ignorance. 

Quote

Shia Wahhabi Sunni Muslims Should Say #No2Wahhabism the Murderous Ideology  That Inspired All Murderous Terrorism Killing the Innocent in the Name of  Islam | Meme on ME.ME  Saudi Funding of Intolerance: The Other Face of the Indian Sufi's Angst |  SabrangIndia  

Differences between Sunnism and Wahhabism - Ijtihad Network The anti-unity campaign of Wahhabis | Followers of The Wilayah  El Capitano (ر) on Twitter: "Shia and Sunni are brothers. Our spirits are  ONE. Don't be fooled by these tyrants. http://t.co/LBoBE39U8H" Wahhabism at Crossroads” by Ayatollah Makarim Shirazi  PDF - Ijtihad Network

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Now, can Sunnis claim that Shias follow Shah of iran or his father in their religion?  Please grow up from childish taunts.

Your are talking about MBS as if he is promoting Sunni Islam.  He is a tyrant just as much as your Shah was.

Allah has bring us to light & gave us salvation by thrwing off Shah & saved us from his tyrani through following way of Ahlulbait (عليه السلام)  by leadership of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) as descendant of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which he has been devotee of Imam Mahdi (aj) but on the other hand you believe that you can't rise up against any tyrant & enemy of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) whther cursed Yazid or killer of Yemenis the MBS.

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10 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You are in for a surprise; he actually will clean up the mess created by Baqir Majlisi.

He will clean up innovation of anyone whether Shia or Sunni nevetheless Baqir Majlisi is just a great & respectable Shia scholar in contrast to any of each on three sunni caliphs before Imam Ali(عليه السلام) who although have taught  directly by prophet (pbu) but after his demi they especially second caliph have created too much innovations likewise Tarawih & folding hands & c changing wAbulution & Athan .


A Woman Who Corrected the Caliph Umar (رضي الله عنه) | #40ForHer | 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4QHJXZMYnM

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11 hours ago, Debate follower said:

With the establishment of Safavid rule

I then came to a conclusion that Umayyad people had established a misleading trap through which they had driven away many thinkers from the reality, and I fully understood the plot that had been hatched against Ahlul-Bayet (Peace Be Upon Them).

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From Wahhabism to Shia Islam – Conversion of a Muslim Cleric to AhlulBayt

Quote

Dr. Esam Ali Yahya El-Emad[/LINK], a Muslim researcher who was born to a Zaidiyyah family in A`b City, Yamen, 1968. He studied to get his PhD degree, through which he had to study Wahabism in Imam Mohammed Bin So’ud Salafi (Wahabi) University, located in Saudi Arabia.

The official website of the Imam Hussein Holy Shrine interviewed Dr. Esam, and asked him some questions:

 

Quote

Did you finish the book? What’s the reason you Left Wahabi faith and embraced Shia faith?

[B]Dr. Esam: [/B]Imam Mohammed Bin So’ud Salafi (Wahabi) University asked me to write a book against the Grand Shia scholar and author, sheikh El-Mufeed, and therefore I had to collect some books of his, in addition to some other Shia and Sunnie books. Through the search for books, I found a book called, “Imam Es-Sadiq” by Mohammed Abi Zehreh. 

Although the book was criticizing Shiasim, but at the same time, it was objective in discussing the Shia faith and was completely different from the books I studied in the university because those books were far away from objectivity. After that, I began to read El-Mufeed’s books; his style was void of hyperbole.

 

Quote

I then came to a conclusion that Umayyad people had established a misleading trap through which they had driven away many thinkers from the reality, and I fully understood the plot that had been hatched against Ahlul-Bayet (Peace Be Upon Them).

He also said that converting into another faith is a hard decision, because it is accompanied by psychological elements, in addition to some other issues, such as hesitation, doubt, and oscillation till one obtains certainty, forgetting the past and beginning another life which is sound in everything.

https://en.shafaqna.com/194/from-wahhabism-to-shia-islam-conversion-of-a-muslim-cleric-to-ahlulbayt/

https://en.shafaqna.com/194/from-wahhabism-to-shia-islam-conversion-of-a-muslim-cleric-to-ahlulbayt/

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You know, some people really should understand some concepts regarding the Imams and avoid having a false impression that the attributes they have equate to shirk, kufr, bid'ah, etc...

This reminds me of a person that cherry picked this hadith from Biharul Anwar:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1473_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٤٢/الصفحة_191

روي أن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام كان قاعدا في المسجد وعنده جماعة من أصحابه، فقالوا له: حدثنا يا أمير المؤمنين، فقال لهم: ويحكم إن كلامي صعب مستصعب لا يعقله إلا العالمون، قالوا: لا بد من أن تحدثنا، قال: قوموا بنا فدخل الدار فقال: أنا الذي علوت فقهرت، أنا الذي أحيي وأميت، أنا الأول والآخر والظاهر والباطن

It was narrated that the Commander of the Faithful, peace be upon him, was sitting in the mosque with a group of his companions, and they said to him: Tell us something, O Commander of the Faithful. He said: I am the one who rose and subsided, I am the one who gives life and causes death, I am the First and the Last, the Apparent and the Hidden.

How can he say this ? This is KUFR ! Subhanallah, you only have to continue reading the hadith:

فغضبوا وقالوا: كفر! وقاموا، فقال علي عليه السلام للباب:
يا باب استمسك عليهم، فاستمسك عليهم الباب، فقال: ألم أقل لكم: إن كلامي صعب مستصعب لا يعقله إلا العالمون؟ تعالوا أفسر لكم، أما قولي: أنا الذي علوت فقهرت فأنا الذي علوتكم بهذا السيف فقهرتكم حتى آمنتم بالله ورسوله، وأما قولي: أنا أحيي وأميت فأنا أحيي السنة وأميت البدعة، وأما قولي: أنا الأول فأنا أول من آمن بالله وأسلم وأما قولي: أنا الآخر فأنا آخر من سجى على النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ثوبه ودفنه، وأما قولي: أنا الظاهر والباطن فأنا عندي علم الظاهر والباطن، قالوا:
فرجت عنا فرج الله عنك.

They got angry and said: KUFR! And they stood up, and Ali, peace be upon him, said to the door:
O door, hold on to them, so the door held on to them, and he said: Did I not tell you: My words are difficult and difficult, and only the knowledgeable can comprehend them? Come, I will explain to you, as for my saying: I am the one who rose and subsided, [that means that] I am the one who raised you with this sword, and I defeated you until you believed in God and His Messenger. And as for my saying: I revive and kill, I revive the Sunnah and kill innovation, and as for my saying: I am the first, I am the first to believe in God and embrace Islam, and as for my saying: I am the last, I am the last one who shrouded the Prophet, may God bless him and his family, with his clothing and burial. As for my saying: I am the apparent and the hidden, then I have the knowledge of the outward and inward. They said: You explained it to us, God bless you.

I can also cherry pick some Sunni hadiths that apparently promote shirk and kufr, why don't you take a look:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3532

قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لِي خَمْسَةُ أَسْمَاءٍ أَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَأَحْمَدُ، وَأَنَا الْمَاحِي الَّذِي يَمْحُو اللَّهُ بِي الْكُفْرَ، وَأَنَا الْحَاشِرُ الَّذِي يُحْشَرُ النَّاسُ عَلَى قَدَمِي، وَأَنَا الْعَاقِبُ ‏"‏‏.‏

Here the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says that he has 5 names: Muhammad, Ahmad, al-Mahi, al-Hashir and al-'Aqib.

So he is al-Mahi, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can truly erase sins and disbelief ?

13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You are putting him on same level equal to Allah Almighty!!!!!!

So he is al-Hashir, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can raise and gather the dead ?

13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You are putting him on same level equal to Allah Almighty!!!!!!

So he is al-'Aqib, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the last and the one who'll remain forever ?

13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You are putting him on same level equal to Allah Almighty!!!!!!

But of course I'm not going to say any of that, because I know that this hadith has been explained, the same way the hadith from Biharul Anwar has been explained, and that these attributes are not of the same level of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I wish you could also do the same.

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12 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3532

قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لِي خَمْسَةُ أَسْمَاءٍ أَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَأَحْمَدُ، وَأَنَا الْمَاحِي الَّذِي يَمْحُو اللَّهُ بِي الْكُفْرَ، وَأَنَا الْحَاشِرُ الَّذِي يُحْشَرُ النَّاسُ عَلَى قَدَمِي، وَأَنَا الْعَاقِبُ ‏"‏‏.‏

Here the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says that he has 5 names: Muhammad, Ahmad, al-Mahi, al-Hashir and al-'Aqib.

So he is al-Mahi, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can truly erase sins and disbelief ?

these hadiths has been explained to you wrong. There is no justifying If it contradicts the Quran then it is not a worthy hadith. 
You are trying to find any reason to believe something  

you have created a religion based off hadiths and pushing your “gods” words  

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

You know, some people really should understand some concepts regarding the Imams and avoid having a false impression that the attributes they have equate to shirk, kufr, bid'ah, etc...

This reminds me of a person that cherry picked this hadith from Biharul Anwar:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1473_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٤٢/الصفحة_191

روي أن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام كان قاعدا في المسجد وعنده جماعة من أصحابه، فقالوا له: حدثنا يا أمير المؤمنين، فقال لهم: ويحكم إن كلامي صعب مستصعب لا يعقله إلا العالمون، قالوا: لا بد من أن تحدثنا، قال: قوموا بنا فدخل الدار فقال: أنا الذي علوت فقهرت، أنا الذي أحيي وأميت، أنا الأول والآخر والظاهر والباطن

It was narrated that the Commander of the Faithful, peace be upon him, was sitting in the mosque with a group of his companions, and they said to him: Tell us something, O Commander of the Faithful. He said: I am the one who rose and subsided, I am the one who gives life and causes death, I am the First and the Last, the Apparent and the Hidden.

How can he say this ? This is KUFR ! Subhanallah, you only have to continue reading the hadith:

فغضبوا وقالوا: كفر! وقاموا، فقال علي عليه السلام للباب:
يا باب استمسك عليهم، فاستمسك عليهم الباب، فقال: ألم أقل لكم: إن كلامي صعب مستصعب لا يعقله إلا العالمون؟ تعالوا أفسر لكم، أما قولي: أنا الذي علوت فقهرت فأنا الذي علوتكم بهذا السيف فقهرتكم حتى آمنتم بالله ورسوله، وأما قولي: أنا أحيي وأميت فأنا أحيي السنة وأميت البدعة، وأما قولي: أنا الأول فأنا أول من آمن بالله وأسلم وأما قولي: أنا الآخر فأنا آخر من سجى على النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ثوبه ودفنه، وأما قولي: أنا الظاهر والباطن فأنا عندي علم الظاهر والباطن، قالوا:
فرجت عنا فرج الله عنك.

They got angry and said: KUFR! And they stood up, and Ali, peace be upon him, said to the door:
O door, hold on to them, so the door held on to them, and he said: Did I not tell you: My words are difficult and difficult, and only the knowledgeable can comprehend them? Come, I will explain to you, as for my saying: I am the one who rose and subsided, [that means that] I am the one who raised you with this sword, and I defeated you until you believed in God and His Messenger. And as for my saying: I revive and kill, I revive the Sunnah and kill innovation, and as for my saying: I am the first, I am the first to believe in God and embrace Islam, and as for my saying: I am the last, I am the last one who shrouded the Prophet, may God bless him and his family, with his clothing and burial. As for my saying: I am the apparent and the hidden, then I have the knowledge of the outward and inward. They said: You explained it to us, God bless you.

I can also cherry pick some Sunni hadiths that apparently promote shirk and kufr, why don't you take a look:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3532

قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لِي خَمْسَةُ أَسْمَاءٍ أَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَأَحْمَدُ، وَأَنَا الْمَاحِي الَّذِي يَمْحُو اللَّهُ بِي الْكُفْرَ، وَأَنَا الْحَاشِرُ الَّذِي يُحْشَرُ النَّاسُ عَلَى قَدَمِي، وَأَنَا الْعَاقِبُ ‏"‏‏.‏

Here the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says that he has 5 names: Muhammad, Ahmad, al-Mahi, al-Hashir and al-'Aqib.

So he is al-Mahi, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can truly erase sins and disbelief ?

So he is al-Hashir, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can raise and gather the dead ?

So he is al-'Aqib, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the last and the one who'll remain forever ?

But of course I'm not going to say any of that, because I know that this hadith has been explained, the same way the hadith from Biharul Anwar has been explained, and that these attributes are not of the same level of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I wish you could also do the same.

So when Imams (عليه السلام) says that they are the names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it never even means The names of Allah of absolute. And how could it be because they are only ment for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to regonize Him.

It would be wonderful to know the authenticity of the narration, if possible.

Edited by Abu Nur
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11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I have refuted all of itwhich you couldn't  refute me but you due to your short memory is likewise memory of golden fish you have repeated it likewise  a broken recod.

 

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You are a typical  Salafi under heavy influence  of Nasibi wahabi propaganda  against  Shias.:einstein::book:

Salaam brother Just to remind you, coming from you I take it as a compliment and seeing that you love Einstein a lot, he is not a Shia but a Zionist sympathiser. 

 

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7 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

I can also cherry pick some Sunni hadiths that apparently promote shirk and kufr, why don't you take a look:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3532

قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لِي خَمْسَةُ أَسْمَاءٍ أَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَأَحْمَدُ، وَأَنَا الْمَاحِي الَّذِي يَمْحُو اللَّهُ بِي الْكُفْرَ، وَأَنَا الْحَاشِرُ الَّذِي يُحْشَرُ النَّاسُ عَلَى قَدَمِي، وَأَنَا الْعَاقِبُ ‏"‏‏.‏

Here the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says that he has 5 names: Muhammad, Ahmad, al-Mahi, al-Hashir and al-'Aqib.

Assalama alaykum brother

Narrated Jubair bin Mut`im: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said,
"I have five names: I am Muhammad and Ahmad;
I am Al-Mahi through whom Allah will eliminate infidelity;
I am Al-Hashir who will be the first to be resurrected,
the people being resurrected there after;
and I am also Al-`Aqib (i.e. There will be no prophet after me).  Sahih Bukhari 3532

7 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

So he is al-Mahi, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can truly erase sins and disbelief ?

Please read again. “I am Al-Mahi through whom Allah will eliminate infidelity;”
It is ONLY Allah Almighty who will erase sins and disbelief! The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is NOT TAKING credit for it.  Of course, it is going to be through him as he is the final Prophet!

In haste to prove me wrong, you are completely misinterpreting Him

7 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

So he is al-Hashir, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can raise and gather the dead ?

Please read again. “I am Al-Hashir who will be the first to be resurrected

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) NEVER said that he “can raise and gather the dead”!!!!

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)  said that it will be he “who will be the first to be resurrected”

In haste to prove me wrong, you are completely misinterpreting Him

7 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

So he is al-'Aqib, while I thought that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the last and the one who'll remain forever ?

Please read again. and I am also Al-`Aqib (i.e. There will be no prophet after me).

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) NEVER said he “is the last and the one who'll remain forever ?” The link of the hadith quoted by you already has in brackets the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was talking in context of Prophet hood.

In haste to prove me wrong, you are completely misinterpreting Him.

You cannot compare this hadith (Sahih Bukhari 3532) to that one of AlKafi.

In hadith (Sahih Bukhari 3532) what the The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said is clear-cut on the onset.  No explanation is needed – except when people read it wrong in haste looking for faults to prove a point.

While in the AlKafi hadith the meaning is not clear-cut on the onset that’s why the reaction of audience: “Getting ANGRY and saying KUFR”.  Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) had to hold them back and explain what he meant by what he had said. 

Brother Mohamad Abdel-Hamid – you have very command of English language – I did not expect this blunder from you.  Otherwise, your other posts are well written – I do read them. :)

This is my last post in this thread. I have surprised myself with so many posts in this thread.  Take care

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Wa alaikum as-salaam,

I was just trying to show that you can't rush to a misunderstanding when one of the Shias give for example an attribute to Imam Mahdi (atf) and apparently sounds like shirk since only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has that attribute.

And I didn't misunderstand the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Again, I was using the same logic that you can't immediatly think of shirk when we say that a member of the Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them) "claims" divinity. Yes, the hadith from Bukhari is well explained (that is, for al-Mahi and al-Hashir, since in the Arabic text it doesn't say that by al-'Aqib he means that he's the last prophet, it only says so in the English text).

I'm just saying that don't think that when a person for example says that he is the First and the Last, he's claiming to be on the same level of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If that person explains what he means by First and Last, then it's ok. But even if he doesn't explain what he means, it's still ok because you don't know what he means by that, you don't know what his intention was, so you can't conclude that it's shirk or kufr. I believe the brother explained to you very well what he was trying to say, and with all honesty you're simply trying to exagerate because it doesn't go along with your views.

Maybe as you said the same situation in the hadith of Biharul Anwar* happened here, where the brother may have said something that wasn't clear-cut on the onset (for you), hence resulting in you having a similar kind of reaction.

48 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Brother Mohamad Abdel-Hamid – you have very command of English language

Thank you.

49 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

I did not expect this blunder from you.  

I'm sorry to disappoint.

49 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Otherwise, your other posts are well written – I do read them. :)

Thanks again :D.

50 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

This is my last post in this thread. I have surprised myself with so many posts in this thread.  Take care

I hope these surprises are meant in the good sense. Take care too.

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20 hours ago, Debate follower said:

By the way, I am just a mainstream Sunni

So you're a Maturidi or Ashʿari Sunni?

20 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Earlier he had claimed divinity for Muhammad  (pbu) & Ahlulbayt  (عليه السلام) – You seem to agree with this too, as you approved his post claiming this.  Is the common 12er Shia belief?

Nobody believes in the divinity of Muhammad—Muhammad is no different from other human beings—he gets thirsty like us, he suffers from heat exhaustion like us, he experiences physical injuries like we do, he feels anxiety and stress like we do, he died as we will all one day die etc.—everything that humans experience and go through (as a part of human nature) he (s) went through—having said that there's an opinion that Muhammad (s) was among the first created beings created by Allah and that he might have been an instrument used in bringing about creation—I'm in process of studying this subject now and I haven't reached a conclusion either way—most classical scholars say Allah existed alone in eternity, until "Be, and it is" (كن فيكون kun fa-yakūn)—then He created Al-'Arsh, Al-'Aql, Al-Kalām —(Shaykh ʿAbdul Qādir al-Gīlānī, d. 561) in his book Sirr al-asrar fi ma yahtaju ilayh al-abrar (p. 12-14 of the Lahore edition) said: "Know that since Allah first created the soul of Muhammad from the light of His beauty, as He said: I created Muhammad from the light of My Face, and as the Prophet said: The first thing Allah created is my soul, and the first thing Allah created is The Pen, and the first thing Allah created is The Intellect—what is meant by all this is one and the same thing, and that is the Haqiqah al-Muhammadiyyah. However, it was named a light because it is completely purified from darkness, as Allah said: "There has come to you from Allah a Light and a Manifest Book." It was also named an intellect because it is the cause for the transmission of knowledge, and the pen is its medium in the world of letters. The Muhammadan Soul (al-Ruh al-Muhammadiyyah) is therefore the quintessence of all created things and the first of them and their origin, as the Prophet said: I am from Allah and the believers are from me, and Allah created all souls from me in the spiritual world and He did so in the best form. It is the name of the totality of mankind in that Primordial World, and after its creation by four thousand aeons, Allah created the Throne from the light of Muhammad himself ﷺ, and from it the rest of creation." This book has now been translated by Shaykh Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi as The Secret of Secrets (Cambridge: Islamic Texts Society, 1994).

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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9 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Salaam brother Just to remind you, coming from you I take it as a compliment and seeing that you love Einstein a lot, he is not a Shia but a Zionist sympathiser. 

Salam nobody has claimed that he has been a Shia but on the other hand It's just an emoticon for using rationality which has no relation to sympathising with Zionism , but neverthless Salafis & Wahabists & rest of anti Shia people are the most devoted Zionist Sympathisers .

Quote

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/nm/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/WSF_antisemitism.png Matam Tv on Twitter: "#Wahhabism + #Zionism = #ISIS… " Palestine Israel Saudi Arabia YEMEN Syria #Zionism and #Wahhabism Are  Murderous Deviation of Judaism and Islam | Meme on ME.ME Mondoweiss on Twitter: "Worth revisiting in light of recent developments:  Is the Saudi Prince becoming a Zionist? Cartoon by @LatuffCartoons.  https://t.co/0bFB6uNOdI… https://t.co/uksK1RySCt"

 

On 9/14/2021 at 3:33 AM, Debate follower said:

More importantly  Umar bin Khattab  did not go to the grave of the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) to perform the Wasilah!!!!! And it must have less than 50 meters away!!!

Mashaallah he has had a GPS for locating supplication place or your so called Sahih hadith books have has geometrical coordinatios 

:einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein:

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On 9/13/2021 at 10:00 PM, Guest Reply said:

There you go again. 
 

I give your verses of the Quran (your lords own words) 

And you bring NORMAL human being opinions. 

I promise to never give you an opinion, own interpretation without acknowledging that it’s an interpretation. 
you follow interpretations that have been implemented into religion, without you knowing. And without the leaders knowing. 

Salam you call everything from Shia side as manmade interpretation by accusing any shia to creating new sect  but on the other hand call your every wahabi/salafi interpretation as divine interpretation & your lord owns words more Einneistein (rational thinking) for you.

:einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein:

:einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein::einstein:

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@Debate follower - Salaam. Not sure what's going on here but didn't we agree that wasilah using Prophet's tupperware was a practice of the sahaba and righteous indeed. 

If you are counting, the stance has changed from only Allah to:

Allah

Living beings who are alive

Inanimate objects that belonged to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Pretty soon, we may end up with 14 Infallibles as the only unacceptable source of wasilah and everything else will be permissible. :grin:

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On 8/24/2021 at 1:43 AM, realizm said:

:salam:.

Addressing Sunnis please

Is caliphate a pilar of sunni doctrine ? 

If not, why that urge to elect a leader after death of Prophet (sawas) 

If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa? 

Islam is the righteous and universal religion. How?

Because the day a child is born, he is born with certain roots of his identity which are untouched and cannot be denied. A person who denies these roots, denies himself. These principles exactly match the 5 usool e din which we cannot deny:

1. Monothiesm 2. Justice 3. Prophethood 4. Imamate (leadership) 5. Day of Judgement

That being said, Sunnis cannot deny Imamate at all. Even if they do, they are actually deny there own prosperity. Something which is fundamental and something without which there is no way forward. As a result you see that, they only deny Imamate in words but not in actions. Because they have taken a wrong path by denying Imamate, at one point every sunni is forced to accept the Imamate of a man-made leader. This bar can be high and low. Low as low as MBS and Al Baghdadi. High as high as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). But they cannot deny it. Even they can consider many Imams depending on fields. Like Imam Bukhari is there Imam in subject of hadith. Similarly, Imam Hanbal, Imam Shafie etc are Imams of law. 

On the other hand, Shias have fixed this concept and locked it so that no one can play with the Usool of religion. Which is very important. Isn't it important to secure an usool of religion? If an usool is violated or tweeked then such a step can destroy the religion. That is the reason that in shiism, denial of Imamate of Ali (عليه السلام) is indeed denial of an usool and denial of an usool is denial of religion. Even if a person might not agree with me but his fitrah would agree. He will fool no one but himself by disagreeing on this.

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Assalama ‘Alaykum brother, I had signed off from this thread as it seemed to me to be getting a bit acrimonious. But this post of yours has forced me to respond to put matters into a better perspective rather than your very narrow view.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Islam is the righteous and universal religion. How?

Because the day a child is born, he is born with certain roots of his identity which are untouched and cannot be denied. A person who denies these roots, denies himself.

Agreed

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

These principles exactly match the 5 usool e din which we cannot deny:

1. Monothiesm 2. Justice 3. Prophethood 4. Imamate (leadership) 5. Day of Judgement

Sunni Muslims have the following as Usul addin.  I sure you will agree with all of them.

Articles of faith: Profession of Faith (shahada). "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God" 2) Prayers (Five per day) 3) Alms 4) Fasting (Ramadan) 5) Pilgrimage (hajj).

The Six Pillars of Faith: 1) Belief in Allah. 2) Belief in His Angels. 3) Belief in His Books. 4) Belief in His Messengers. 5) Belief in The Last Day. 6) Belief in Destiny.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

That being said, Sunnis cannot deny Imamate at all. Even if they do, they are actually deny there own prosperity. Something which is fundamental and something without which there is no way forward. As a result you see that, they only deny Imamate in words but not in actions.

Only if Shias could prove Imamate implicitly and categorically from the Blessed Qur’an, corresponding to believe in Tawheed, Prophet hood, the Books, Angels, Et cetera, Et cetera, Et cetera.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Because they have taken a wrong path by denying Imamate, at one point every sunni is forced to accept the Imamate of a man-made leader. This bar can be high and low. Low as low as MBS and Al Baghdadi.

 

If you have stated, the above in ignorance then it is excusable but if are stating the above deliberately knowing it is not true then it is devious and cunning tactics to throw cheap shots at Sunnis. 

Normally you are quite fair in your arguments but here you have embarrassingly stooped too low. I hope you see this again and withdraw your baseless accusation and apologise.  Only to be fair to your own intellect.

MBS and Al Baghdadi (there are many others) are power hungry, corrupt, tyrants and are not religious leaders.

Would you find it fair if Sunnis accuse that Shias were following the shah of Iran and other corrupt to the core Shia dynasties of Iran in their religion?

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

High as high as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Hasan (عليه السلام). But they cannot deny it.

Indeed, Pious of the Pious, Virtuous Blessed Souls. Great leaders and examples to follow.  Their rewards are Allah Almighty.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Even they can consider many Imams depending on fields. Like Imam Bukhari is there Imam in subject of hadith. Similarly, Imam Hanbal, Imam Shafie etc are Imams of law. 

 

You should not be complaining about this. This the same for Shias. See for yourself, Teheran international airport’s official name IMAM Khomeini International Airport!

Likewise, Sunnis address their religious leaders who have excelled in their fields as imams.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

On the other hand, Shias have fixed this concept and locked it so that no one can play with the Usool of religion. Which is very important. Isn't it important to secure an usool of religion? If an usool is violated or tweeked then such a step can destroy the religion.

If this concept of Imamate was fixed and locked, how come you have Shias who believe Five imams, others in seven imams and yet others in twelve imams and yet others who believe in perpetual imamate!!!!!!

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

That is the reason that in shiism, denial of Imamate of Ali (عليه السلام) is indeed denial of an usool and denial of an usool is denial of religion. Even if a person might not agree with me but his fitrah would agree. He will fool no one but himself by disagreeing on this.

Alhamdulilah, for this is only the belief of about 10-12% of Muslims.

On 9/16/2021 at 6:07 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

Pretty soon, we may end up with 14 Infallibles as the only unacceptable source of wasilah and everything else will be permissible. :grin:

Wa alaykum Salaam brother,  These Noble Souls (peace and blessings be upon them all) have passed away and are now Guests of Allah Almighty well rewarded for their most illustrious immaculate lives.

In the Blessed Quran, Allah Almighty clearly says that He will answer the prayers of those who pray to Him: "When My servants ask thee [O Muhammad] concerning Me, [tell them] I am indeed close: I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way" (Quran 2:186)

In another verse: "Your Lord says: 'Call on me, I will answer [your prayer]" (Quran 40:60).

So, why does have one to seek someone else to pray to Allah Almighty is beyond logic!

One should  pray to Allah Almighty for everything in their lives however big or small.

"The most beautiful names belong to Allah: so, call on him by them." (Glorious Qur'an 7:180)

Why can’t you recite the following Dua Joshan Kabeer – Pure Tawheed!  Direct line to Allah Almighty anytime any place.  This directly addresses Allah Almighty with His most Beautiful Names!

https://www.duas.org/mobile/ramadan-dua-jawshan-kabeer.html.html 

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