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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate ?

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39 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Lol. Are you really presenting a poem as evidence?

Read dua tawassul...who is first I it?

It shows how far a tradition went….

Sorry but who ever calls on anyone other than Allah it is shirk. 
sunni shia whatever lol

it’s a basic fundamental Islamic teaching. Anything else is basically another religion for that person your calling on to… 

 

no need to call to Zeinab Fatima Mahdi Hussein or Ali. Learn from them. Don’t worship them. They are the prophets family they would be disappointed with any human being who calls on to them. A true Muslim which THEY WERE, knows they are nothing special on this world. They wouldn’t want any of that they only want to please Allah

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Assalama alaykum brother, no, not as evidence but showing what is ingrained into very young impressionable minds! Shocking!!

Why, Why the following could not be instilled into the young minds is beyond belief.  Completely opposite to the above poem. Very sad indeed.

I have very, very personal, and emotional attachment with these two.

Dua Jawshan Kabeer   

https://www.duas.org/mobile/ramadan-dua-jawshan-kabeer.html.html

Munajaat (Whispered Prayer) of Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)

http://www.duas.org/munajat-imamali-desktop.htm

Direct one-to-one connection with Allah Almighty without any intermediatory. Amazingly great!  Can easily bring tears in the eyes of even those with hardened hearts!

Wasalaam

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7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Assalama alaykum brother, no, not as evidence but showing what is ingrained into very young impressionable minds! Shocking!!

Why, Why the following could not be instilled into the young minds is beyond belief.  Completely opposite to the above poem. Very sad indeed.

I have very, very personal, and emotional attachment with these two.

Dua Jawshan Kabeer   

https://www.duas.org/mobile/ramadan-dua-jawshan-kabeer.html.html

Munajaat (Whispered Prayer) of Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)

http://www.duas.org/munajat-imamali-desktop.htm

Direct one-to-one connection with Allah Almighty without any intermediatory. Amazingly great!  Can easily bring tears in the eyes of even those with hardened hearts!

Wasalaam

Don't forget dua kumayl.

Still don't know why we are discussing poems as evidence of anything. Yes, we are injected with the love of Ahlul Bayt from birth.

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8 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

It shows how far a tradition went….

Sorry but who ever calls on anyone other than Allah it is shirk. 

Said every Wahabi

As long as I don't call someone Allah, nothing is shirk. It's the limited mind of a wahabi that can't comprehend the vastness of Allah and fears everything is shirk.

#FakeShia

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On 9/5/2021 at 11:14 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Said every Wahabi

As long as I don't call someone Allah, nothing is shirk. It's the limited mind of a wahabi that can't comprehend the vastness of Allah and fears everything is shirk.

#FakeShia

I don’t know what the wahabis believe and I don’t care. But I might look it up 

not a fake Shia, just a Muslim trying to please Allah. Sorry your need to spend 75% of your days talking about imams. When it does absolutely nothing for you and your relationship with allah. 

waste of time. And they would be disappointed if they knew. 

allah does not share his divine attributes with ANYONE. to worship anyone but Allah is Shirk. 

don’t need to be a wahabi to agree. 

a 12 year old who studies Islam from a general view, a Christian who studied Islam, or a Shia that opens his mind and studies islam would understand that. 

you will claim you don’t worship the imams. But your fellow Shias do. Allah does not have ANY PARTNERS 

idk what’s so hard to understand. Stop ADDING things 

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On 9/5/2021 at 11:10 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Don't forget dua kumayl.

Still don't know why we are discussing poems as evidence of anything. Yes, we are injected with the love of Ahlul Bayt from birth.

Just like Sunnis are injected with calling themselves Sunni. 
just like Christians are injected wit calling Jesus god. 
Humans are injected with things at birth. But Allah gave you a mind to break free from a sheep mentality. You need more time bro you will see the confusion in Shiism one day. 

There is no such thing as Shiism Sunnism Wahhabism 

all followers are just SHEEP labeling themselves something of which they do not know. 

Everyone is born a Muslim until you label yourself otherwise. 

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On 9/5/2021 at 11:14 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Said every Wahabi

As long as I don't call someone Allah, nothing is shirk. It's the limited mind of a wahabi that can't comprehend the vastness of Allah and fears everything is shirk.

#FakeShia

[Edit] wahhabism oh ya the Saudi Arabia thing I heard of it. 
I don’t follow no donkey from the 1700s he is not a leader to ME

ALLAH KNOWS BEST what his intentions are so I will make no further comment. But to label yourself a Wahabi you are still not educated about Islam enough. 
SUNNI WAYS

SHIA WAYS 

WAHABI WAYS 

Are all technically SECTS 

ALLAH MADE IT CLEAR IN THE QURAN I showed you the verse already. it is 100,000% haram to become part of any sect  

I am not in any sect. I follow the teachings of Muhammad his family and companions who all tried their best

If you call yourself a Sunni or Shia just know you are 1000% going against the teaching of the Quran  (WHATEVER REASONNyou come up with can not over power the Qurans words) 

so bottom line it is haram. 
I am right  you are wrong  just accept it  

I really don’t care to be right. But I have given you the strongest source of evidence  what more do you want 

so I AM DONE with this conversation 

Edited by Hameedeh
[Edit] Please do not use profanity.
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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Don't forget dua kumayl.

Still don't know why we are discussing poems as evidence of anything. Yes, we are injected with the love of Ahlul Bayt from birth.

Assalama 'alaykum, Indeed dua Kumayl is excellent as one is directly addressing Allah Almighty.  As I said earlier I have I have very, very personal, and emotional attachment with Dua Jawshan Kabeer and Munajaat (Whispered Prayer) of Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).  

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Still don't know why we are discussing poems as evidence of anything. Yes, we are injected with the love of Ahlul Bayt from birth.

"He is your saviour, your caretaker You will not be left alone never He is always watching over you"

Uttering the above is not expressing love!

Quote

Call Imam Mahdi.

And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased - 60 Ghafir

Anything that enters Domain of Allah Almighty leads to Shirk, reeks of Shirk and is Shirk.

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21 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased - 60 Ghafir

Anything that enters Domain of Allah Almighty leads to Shirk, reeks of Shirk and is Shirk.

It's just relying  on different  translation  which even sunni translators  have translated  Call upon Me  ادْعُونِي in different  forms likewise praying & etc for example  Maududi  has transleted it to "Pray to Me" & Hilali as  "Invoke Me" . Therefore  translations can be vary which you can't  rely just a translation in order to relate calling Imam Mahdi (aj) as a person to worshiping  him besides Allah just bsased on an english poem for kids which clearly about asking request  for help from a person which he is Caliph of Allah on earth so clearly it's not woshipping him besides Allah.

Quote

Your Lord said: “Pray to Me, and I will accept your prayers. Surely those who wax too proud to worship Me shall enter Hell, utterly abased.” (60) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.maududi/40:60

And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" (60)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.hilali/40:60

 

21 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Call Imam Mahdi.

This is crystally clear about calling him as a person not besides Allah.

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4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Said every Wahabi

As long as I don't call someone Allah, nothing is shirk. It's the limited mind of a wahabi that can't comprehend the vastness of Allah and fears everything is shirk.

#FakeShia

Lol a great mind of a shia……shiaman the great.

as long as you don’t call anyone Allah nothing is shirk.

where do you start? No wonder shias are a minority with stupid thinking like that.

So you can go pray to imams as long as you don’t call them Allah.

Brilliiant.

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:salam:

Why every thread on the Sunni Shia dialogue sub forum has to end like that. 

@ all guests : please open discussions if you have separate issues. 

My question seems to be answered : caliphate is not a prerequisite for Sunni doctrine. Yet it cannot be withdrawn or questioned to stay in your orthodoxy. 

Am I correct ? 

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10 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

Why every thread on the Sunni Shia dialogue sub forum has to end like that. 

@ all guests : please open discussions if you have separate issues. 

My question seems to be answered : caliphate is not a prerequisite for Sunni doctrine. Yet it cannot be withdrawn or questioned to stay in your orthodoxy. 

Am I correct ? 

Wrong. 
 

I don’t need to claim a caliphate. So it is withdrawn

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On 9/6/2021 at 12:03 AM, Guest Reply said:

allah does not share his divine attributes with ANYONE. to worship anyone but Allah is Shirk. 

Just one example:

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ {1}

[Quran 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

لَقَدْ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مِنْ أَنْفُسِكُمْ عَزِيزٌ عَلَيْهِ مَا عَنِتُّمْ حَرِيصٌ عَلَيْكُمْ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَءُوفٌ رَحِيمٌ {128}

[Quran 9:128] Certainly a Messenger has come to you from among yourselves; grievous to him is your falling into distress, excessively solicitous respecting you; to the believers (he is) compassionate,

Look Allah shared an attribute. So based on your logic, you MUST accuse Allah of shirk.

On 9/6/2021 at 4:02 AM, Guest The one said:

Lol a great mind of a shia……shiaman the great.

as long as you don’t call anyone Allah nothing is shirk.

where do you start? No wonder shias are a minority with stupid thinking like that.

So you can go pray to imams as long as you don’t call them Allah.

Brilliiant.

See above

On 9/6/2021 at 12:16 AM, Guest Reply said:

[Edit] wahhabism oh ya the Saudi Arabia thing I heard of it. 
I don’t follow no donkey from the 1700s he is not a leader to ME

ALLAH KNOWS BEST what his intentions are so I will make no further comment. But to label yourself a Wahabi you are still not educated about Islam enough. 
SUNNI WAYS

SHIA WAYS 

WAHABI WAYS 

Are all technically SECTS 

ALLAH MADE IT CLEAR IN THE QURAN I showed you the verse already. it is 100,000% haram to become part of any sect  

I am not in any sect. I follow the teachings of Muhammad his family and companions who all tried their best

If you call yourself a Sunni or Shia just know you are 1000% going against the teaching of the Quran  (WHATEVER REASONNyou come up with can not over power the Qurans words) 

so bottom line it is haram. 
I am right  you are wrong  just accept it  

I really don’t care to be right. But I have given you the strongest source of evidence  what more do you want 

so I AM DONE with this conversation 

Trying too hard.

Edited by Hameedeh
Profanity in the quote was removed.
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6 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Look Allah shared an attribute. So based on your logic, you MUST accuse Allah of shirk

Pathetic that you actually went there and said that… 

Quran 1:5

You ˹alone˺ we worship and You ˹alone˺ we ask for help.

 

so tell me again why you need the Imams for help? Rather than just doing what your supposed to do and just respect their teachings. 

8 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Trying too hard

Or you just gave up to easy. I only used facts. I didn’t see u state any

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8 hours ago, realizm said:

Thanks. Same for Caliphates from the past including Rashidun ? 

I don’t know them, never taught about them, never needed them, so I do t think I will ever need them. 

we don’t need any of these ppl

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12 hours ago, realizm said:

Thanks. Same for Caliphates from the past including Rashidun

They walked with the prophet, but they are not our prophet. We can study what they told us, and if we disagree then we can turn to Allah. Just as the Quran says. 
everhthing is questionable. 

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On 9/7/2021 at 11:16 PM, Guest Reply said:

Pathetic that you actually went there and said that… 

Why? You said Allah doesn't share his attributes with anyone so I provided an example of Allah sharing his attribute.

The correct way to say it is that there are certain attributes of Allah that belong solely to him. Read this:
 

 

On 9/6/2021 at 4:02 AM, Guest The one said:

Lol a great mind of a shia……shiaman the great.

as long as you don’t call anyone Allah nothing is shirk.

where do you start? No wonder shias are a minority with stupid thinking like that.

So you can go pray to imams as long as you don’t call them Allah.

Brilliiant.

See above link on Attributes of Allah

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On 9/7/2021 at 11:16 PM, Guest Reply said:

Pathetic that you actually went there and said that… 

Quran 1:5

You ˹alone˺ we worship and You ˹alone˺ we ask for help.

 

so tell me again why you need the Imams for help? Rather than just doing what your supposed to do and just respect their teachings. 

Or you just gave up to easy. I only used facts. I didn’t see u state any

Riddle me this - very first meeting about Islam "Dawat Zul Ashira", did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not ask people about helping him in his mission?

I could cite example after example on how we ask 'others' for help. Are you saying we commit shirk every time we ask someone for help?

Pretty ridiculous interpretation and dare I say very-salafiesque interpretation of Islam...not that there is anything wrong with being a salafi.

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4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

iddle me this - very first meeting about Islam "Dawat Zul Ashira", did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not ask people about helping him in his mission?

I could cite example after example on how we ask 'others' for help. Are you saying we commit shirk every time we ask someone for help?

Pretty ridiculous interpretation and dare I say very-salafiesque interpretation of Islam...not that there is anything wrong with being a salafi

Well you can ask your neighbor for a ride

you can ask Allah for a brand new ride 

you can ask your neighbor to make dua for you 

Who can’t talk to your dead neighbor to make dua for you, or for a ride, or for anything. 
neither can you ask the imams. They can’t do nothing for you. It’s illogical to ask them for help. 

That’s why you should only ask Allah for help when it comes to faith. Cause he is your only helper and the only who can do something 

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Riddle me this - very first meeting about Islam "Dawat Zul Ashira", did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not ask people about helping him in his mission?

I could cite example after example on how we ask 'others' for help. Are you saying we commit shirk every time we ask someone for help?

Pretty ridiculous interpretation and dare I say very-salafiesque interpretation of Islam...not that there is anything wrong with being a salafi.

 Salaam, of course you can ask anyone for help who is ALIVE; and not when they have passed on to the ‘other side’.

Now to answer the question asked by brother realizm

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate?

For Sunni Muslims Khilaafah is highly recommended necessity but not Fard. (Absolute). As brother layman had correctly stated.

Quote

I believe that Khalifah is not a pillar of sunni doctrine.  But, there must be an elected leader among Sunni muslim community / country that to defend the doctrine of religion.

Now to answer the question asked by brother realizm

Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate?

For Sunni Muslims Khilaafah is highly recommended necessity but not Fard. (Absolute). As brother layman had correctly stated.

I believe that Khalifah is not a pillar of sunni doctrine.  But, there must be an elected leader among Sunni muslim community / country that to defend the doctrine of religion.

Allah Almighty has recommended the Muslims in the Blessed Qur’an to conduct their affairs by mutual consultation.

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them; Verse 38 Surah ash-Shura (appropriately named CONSULTATION).

The Blessed (peace and blessings be upon him) Prophet had prophesied that Khilafah on the Prophetic Methodology will last 30 years.  Then Kingship will begin.

"There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method" and then he remained silent (Imam Ahmed)

The hadeeth narrated by Safeenah (may Allah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic khilaafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills.

Reported by Abu Dawud and al-Haakim. Saheeh al-Jaami' as-Sagheer (no. 3257)

Then the Blessed (peace and blessings be upon him) prophesied the following which I think very appropriately depicts the present situation of Muslim Ummah – Great in Numbers – A lot of Wealth -mostly wasted on personal aggrandisement and glorification!  Love of the worldly life as if there is no tomorrow.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said:

The People will soon summon one another to attack you from every place in the same way that a pack calls around its prey.” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?” He replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-Wahn into your hearts.” Someone asked, “O Messenger of Allah, what is al-Wahn?” He replied, “Love of the world and dislike of death.” (Ahmed)

The Blessed (peace and blessings be upon him) Prophet is reported to have said:

You will certainly follow the ways of those who came before you hand span by hand span, cubit by cubit, to the extent that if they enter the hole of a lizard, you will enter it too.’ We said, ‘O Messenger of Allah, (do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?’ He said: ‘Who else?’” [Bukhari & Muslim]

Khilafaat was destroyed by non-Muslims twice.

Around 1250 AD the decadent Abbasid Khilafat established in Bagdad was destroyed by the Mongol invasion.

Then after a few years it was re-established in Cairo which last up to early 1500s and Uthmaniyah Khilafat came into being at the same time.    It lasted up to 1924 abolished as it was on the losing side in the First World War and there were massive conspiracies against it by the Zionists and it had become very weak due to internal conflicts and mismanagement and general stagnation.

All is not lost as there is good news the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had prophesied that: “and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method”.

 

 

 

Edited by Debate follower
grammar ;)
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9 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I don’t know them, never taught about them, never needed them, so I do t think I will ever need them. 

we don’t need any of these ppl

You just weren't sunni, brother... 

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

 

I believe that Khalifah is not a pillar of sunni doctrine.  But, there must be an elected leader among Sunni muslim community / country that to defend the doctrine of religion.

What sunni doctrine existed at the time of death of Prophet (sawas)? 

 

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them; Verse 38 Surah ash-Shura (appropriately named CONSULTATION).

Isn't it ironic that you quote a verse about mutual consultation, to prove Khilafa which is absolute power? 

Do you really think this applies to political affairs? 

 

 

:salam:

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

You just weren't sunni, brother... 

yup that’s my point. Lol

shias are the only ones who care about this and speak 90% of their days about it 


As a Sunni wallah not one time in my household growing up did we mention any of the caliphates. 
 

it’s does nothing for Allah 

 

never was a Sunni never will be. 
To label yourself means you care more about presentation more than to follow Allahs words. 
and 100% of Sunnis and Shias don’t realize that 

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4 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 Salaam, of course you can ask anyone for help who is ALIVE; and not when they have passed on to the ‘other side’.

So this is a big change from "ask no one for help" to "ask ALIVE people for help". So technically it would be okay for me to ask Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) for help because I believe him to be alive?

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So this is a big change from "ask no one for help" to "ask ALIVE people for help". So technically it would be okay for me to ask Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) for help because I believe him to be alive?

Out of curiosity What would you ask him?

he is not divine. Nor do I personally believe he is alive. If he had that much of a role he would have been mentioned by Allah and directly from the prophets mouth. Some say nabi issa is really the Mahdy. The name is used to describe rather than a person. 
 

uneducated on the subject so I’ll pass

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15 hours ago, realizm said:

What sunni doctrine existed at the time of death of Prophet (sawas)? 

Follow the Blessed Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. 59 an-Nisa

“Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.”  21 Al-Ahzab

Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 31 Ali-Imran

15 hours ago, realizm said:

Isn't it ironic that you quote a verse about mutual consultation, to prove Khilafa which is absolute power?

Ironic? Not at all, after mutual consultation, authority is bestowed.

 

15 hours ago, realizm said:

Do you really think this applies to political affairs? 

Not only political affairs, rather all affairs and spheres of life.

And make counsel with them in the affair; so, when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust” Quran159 Ali-Imran.

 

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13 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So this is a big change from "ask no one for help" to "ask ALIVE people for help". So technically it would be okay for me to ask Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) for help because I believe him to be alive?

Please be realistic and rational, we exist in practical world. 

We ask Allah Almighty for Guidance and then seek help of knowledgeable pious Scholars to follow the right path

We ask Allah Almighty for good health and seek help of health experts to keep healthy

We ask Allah Almighty for knowledge and seek help of scholars to gain knowledge

We ask Allah Almighty for prosperous life and then seek help affordable educational institutions to best qualifications for betterment of our lives

You want me to carry on ……………………………………...?

If my car breaks down, of course I going to seek help of mechanic who is alive. And not a mechanic who had passed away however good he was.  Also, Allah Almighty has commanded Muslims to help one another.

and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil) 2 al-Ma’idah

Dua Jawshan Kabeer 1st line 1st chapter

اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْألُكَ بِاسْمِكَ يَا اللَّهُ

O Allah, verily I beseech You in Your name: O Allah,

allahumma in-ne as-aluka bis-mika yal-lah

Dua Jawshan Kabeer 3rd line 3rd chapter

يَا خَيْرَ النَّاصِرِين

O Best of helpers,

ya khayran-nasiren

But Allah is your Protector, and He is the Best of Helpers. 150 Ali-Imran

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “My aid is not to be sought. Verily, one only seeks the aid of Allah.” Musnad Aḥmad 22097

13 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

So technically it would be okay for me to ask Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) for help because I believe him to be alive?

I don’t know why you need help form him.  He is NOT Omnipresent. He is human. As you claim that he is alive so, he in this world and him being human I am sure he needs to sleep every day. Right?  Why disturb him for your needs when Allah Almighty is Sufficient for us! And He is Omnipresent and never sleeps or gets tired.

Allah is Sufficient for us! Most Excellent is He in Whom we trust!

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14 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Out of curiosity What would you ask him?

he is not divine. Nor do I personally believe he is alive. If he had that much of a role he would have been mentioned by Allah and directly from the prophets mouth. Some say nabi issa is really the Mahdy. The name is used to describe rather than a person. 
 

uneducated on the subject so I’ll pass

So let's leave Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) aside and have the same discussion on Hz Isa (عليه السلام). Valid?

has the stance changed from "Ask no one but Allah for help" to "Ask Allah and anyone alive for help" because the ayah you quoted was very specific?

Any time any Muslims asks anyone for help, is he/she committing shirk?

3 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Please be realistic and rational, we exist in practical world. 

We ask Allah Almighty for Guidance and then seek help of knowledgeable pious Scholars to follow the right path

We ask Allah Almighty for good health and seek help of health experts to keep healthy

We ask Allah Almighty for knowledge and seek help of scholars to gain knowledge

We ask Allah Almighty for prosperous life and then seek help affordable educational institutions to best qualifications for betterment of our lives

You want me to carry on ……………………………………...?

If my car breaks down, of course I going to seek help of mechanic who is alive. And not a mechanic who had passed away however good he was.  Also, Allah Almighty has commanded Muslims to help one another.

and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil) 2 al-Ma’idah

Dua Jawshan Kabeer 1st line 1st chapter

اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْألُكَ بِاسْمِكَ يَا اللَّهُ

O Allah, verily I beseech You in Your name: O Allah,

allahumma in-ne as-aluka bis-mika yal-lah

Dua Jawshan Kabeer 3rd line 3rd chapter

يَا خَيْرَ النَّاصِرِين

O Best of helpers,

ya khayran-nasiren

But Allah is your Protector, and He is the Best of Helpers. 150 Ali-Imran

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “My aid is not to be sought. Verily, one only seeks the aid of Allah.” Musnad Aḥmad 22097

I don’t know why you need help form him.  He is NOT Omnipresent. He is human. As you claim that he is alive so, he in this world and him being human I am sure he needs to sleep every day. Right?  Why disturb him for your needs when Allah Almighty is Sufficient for us! And He is Omnipresent and never sleeps or gets tired.

Allah is Sufficient for us! Most Excellent is He in Whom we trust!

Not one of us has said "Dont ask Allah for help".

The discussion is more around is it okay to ask non-Allah for help. That is a Y/N question.

Did you know that the sahaba did tawassul with the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cloak, tupperware and also called upon Ibn Abbas to pray for rain since he was related to Allah. So clearly the precedent for tawassul was set by the sahaba.

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Did you know that the sahaba did tawassul with the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cloak, tupperware

Indeed that's true.  Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can not be compared to anyone, right?

 

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

and also called upon Ibn Abbas to pray for rain since he was related to Allah. So clearly the precedent for tawassul was set by the sahaba.

he was related to Allah I know it a typo :D I won't hold you this. Also it was not Hz. Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) rather his father Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him) who was Uncle of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and also Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib  (may Allah be pleased with him).  Keep in mind Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him) was alive at time.  

Importantly, the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all) did tawassul with living Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him).  They did go to the resting place of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) for Tawassul!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The discussion is more around is it okay to ask non-Allah for help. That is a Y/N question.

Y (ALIVE)

4 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Please be realistic and rational, we exist in practical world. 

We ask Allah Almighty for Guidance and then seek help of knowledgeable pious Scholars to follow the right path

We ask Allah Almighty for good health and seek help of health experts to keep healthy

We ask Allah Almighty for knowledge and seek help of scholars to gain knowledge

Wasalaam

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3 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Importantly, the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all) did tawassul with living Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him).  They did NOT go to the resting place of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) for Tawassul!!!!!!!

Had to Edit it with NOT

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This has been a point of contention that continues for 1400 years and no amount of reconciliation will ever take place. Sunnis struggle with the issue of Tawassul depending on their 4 madhabs: Hanafi, Maliki, Sha'afi, and Hanbali. Let's not go the Wahhabi nor the Salafi route as those "Sunnis" are amongst the misguided of the Sunnis since they don't adhere to any of the 4 madhabs of Sunni Islam on the same level as the Sunnis who grew up and lived under the 4 madhabs understanding the nuances.

The issue with most Sunnis and those who grew up in Sunni Islam is that they are not willing to understand nor willing to partake in learning the nuance of the idea of Martyrs and what their roles are based on the Quran. Allah in The Quran warns the Muslim Ummah not to consider those who were martyred for the cause of Allah as among the Dead. For they are very much Alive.

Quote

Sahih International Translation of The Quran

(2:154)

١٥٤  وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

154  And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah, “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.

(3:169)

١٦٩  وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

169  And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,

(3:170)

١٧٠  فَرِحِينَ بِمَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ وَيَسْتَبْشِرُونَ بِالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَلْحَقُوا بِهِمْ مِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ أَلَّا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

170  Rejoicing in what Allah has bestowed upon them of His bounty, and they receive good tidings about those [to be martyred] after them who have not yet joined them – that there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

(3:171)

١٧١  يَسْتَبْشِرُونَ بِنِعْمَةٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَفَضْلٍ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُضِيعُ أَجْرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

171  They receive good tidings of favor from Allah and bounty and [of the fact] that Allah does not allow the reward of believers to be lost –

Given the nuance of what the verse from the Quran is talking about it seems that the Martyrs of Allah are the exception when it comes to Life and Death. Ali ibne Abi Talib was assassinated by Abd al-Rahman ibn Muljam and took 3 days for him to finally pass away from this Life. He became a Martyr of Allah. But as Muslims we cannot say with certainty that Ali ibne Abi Talib is truly dead based on The Quran. For he is very much Alive by the Will of Allah.

The verses of the Quran 2:154 and 3:169 leaves no room for further interpretation as the interpretation itself seems crystal clear that being a Martyr of Allah implies that person is still alive even though he's no longer living in a Physical Corporeal Sense. Therefore, Martyrs of Allah are the Exception to the rules of Life and Death and Allah has willed it so.

So here's the question that relates to the point of contention for the interests of Sunni Islam. When it comes to Tawassul you're willing to admit that the Sahaabas DID do Tawassul during their time period under the condition that they were ALIVE. By ALIVE do you mean that in the most Physical Corporeal Sense? If so then you've just indirectly admitted to everyone else that you just did Kufr upon The Quran given Surah 2:154 and 3:169. If not then please elaborate further for why Muslims can't make Tawassul upon the Martyrs of Allah despite them still being ALIVE in Spirit by the Will of Allah? Isn't the whole point of Tawassul is to seek nearness to Allah to redeem oneself through a source and if that source has to be a Prophet or a Martyr of Allah (whether physically Alive or not) what's the problem?

What if the person made such a prayer where they're praying to Allah asking Him to allow Muhammad, His Ahlul-Bayt, and the Martyrs of Allah to allow them to speak to Allah on their behalves that their sins be forgiven? Where's the Shirk being involved here? There's no association of partnership or equality being inscribed upon Muhammad, His Ahlul-Bayt, and The Martyrs of Allah. Nor is there any shred of certainty that Muhammad, His Ahlul-Bayt, and The Martyrs of Allah are independent upon Allah. The person is still making dua to Allah directly. It's just someone praying to Allah with a condition. Whether Allah accepts his prayers or not is up for Him to decide. Not you or me or anyone else.

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8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

he was related to Allah

:blush: :blush: :blush:

8 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Indeed that's true.  Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can not be compared to anyone, right?

 

he was related to Allah I know it a typo :D I won't hold you this. Also it was not Hz. Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) rather his father Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him) who was Uncle of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and also Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib  (may Allah be pleased with him).  Keep in mind Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him) was alive at time.  

Importantly, the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them all) did tawassul with living Hz. Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (may Allah be pleased with him).  They did NOT go to the resting place of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) for Tawassul!!!!!!!

So we are expanding tawassul from "only Allah" to "Allah + alive" and now "Allah + Alive + inanimate objects belonging to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)".

I question my sunni brethren who are more attached to the Prophet's belongings than his family.

I hope you realize that the Ahlul Bayt are important because they belong to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and dare I say we're more important than his tupperware.

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12 hours ago, Debate follower said:

They did go to the resting place of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) for Tawassul!!!!!!!

 

Quote

The Sunni View

The majority of Sunni scholars permitted the resort to the dead and did themselves resort to religious leaders. Al-Samhudi, a Shafi'i scholar in the tenth/sixteenth century, wrote a book, Wafa' al-wafa' bi akhbar dar al-Mustafa, in which he collected cases where people resorted to the Prophet (s) and their requests were met. According to Abu Ali Khilal, whenever he had a problem, he visited the grave of Imam al-Kazim (a) and resorted to him and his problem was solved. Muhammad b. Idris al-Shafi'i was quoted as saying that the Household of the Prophet (s) are means for the proximity to God.

The Wahhabi View

Wahhabis dismiss the resort to the dead as illegitimate and impermissible. Ibn Taymiyya (whose views are frequently cited by Wahhabis) believes that the resort to the prayers of the Prophet (s) and righteous people is legitimate only when they are alive, and it is an instance of polytheism to resort to them after their death.

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According to proponents of the resort to the dead, there is no difference in resorting to divine people during their life and after their death. Just as one can legitimately ask the Prophet (s) and other divine people to pray for one and ask God for one's forgiveness during their lives, one can do so after their death as well. The Qur'an 4:64 has also been appealed to, which includes both the period of the Prophet's (s) life and the period after his death. Moreover, the practice of Muslims, including the companions, shows that the resort to the dead was permissible.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Resort_to_the_Dead

17 hours ago, Debate follower said:

I don’t know why you need help form him.  He is NOT Omnipresent. He is human. As you claim that he is alive so, he in this world and him being human I am sure he needs to sleep every day. Right?  Why disturb him for your needs when Allah Almighty is Sufficient for us! And He is Omnipresent and never sleeps or gets tired.

Allah is Sufficient for us! Most Excellent is He in Whom we trust!

Imam Mahdi  (aj) is caliph of Allah so if you mean being divine is equal to being God then it will be  wrong about him but on the other hand he has all divine attributes  by permission  of Allah which by permission  of Allah as his caliph he can help anyone in anymatter  which your understanding  from Imam is totally wrong which nevertheless  he is a human with all human attruibutes but he doesn't  bother from asking help from him  then helping others in anytime & anyplace by permission  of Allah.

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