Can Sunni Islam exist without Caliphate ?

[realizm]

.

Addressing Sunnis please : 

Is caliphate a pilar of sunni doctrine ? 

If not, why that urge to elect a leader after death of Prophet (sawas) 

If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa? 

[layman]

I believe that Khalifah is not a pillar of sunni doctrine.  But, there must be an elected leader among Sunni muslim community / country that to defend the doctrine of religion.

As for Malaysia, they replaced it with man made Kings.

As long as there are man made leaders to lead Sunni muslim, is acceptable to Sunnis (which they called Ulil-Amr).

[ShiaMan14]

I think there are sunnis that believe Islam can exist without the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well...

[FollowerofIslam]

1 hour ago, layman said:

I believe that Khalifah is not a pillar of sunni doctrine.  But, there must be an elected leader among Sunni muslim community / country that to defend the doctrine of religion.

As for Malaysia, they replaced it with man made Kings.

As long as there are man made leaders to lead Sunni muslim, is acceptable to Sunnis (which they called Ulil-Amr).

I am confused? There was no election in Sunni Islam for the Caliphate. The first one dressed himself with it (the Caliphate), there wasn't even an election committee. The greater people had no say whatsoever, what election are you talking about?

The second one was given the Caliphate by his best friend, the first one, no questions asked.

The third one was elected from 6 committee members whom these members were chosen by the second. 

I am very confused here, there is no election?

[realizm]

1 hour ago, FollowerofIslam said:

I am confused? There was no election in Sunni Islam for the Caliphate. The first one dressed himself with it (the Caliphate), there wasn't even an election committee. The greater people had no say whatsoever, what election are you talking about?

The second one was given the Caliphate by his best friend, the first one, no questions asked.

The third one was elected from 6 committee members whom these members were chosen by the second. 

I am very confused here, there is no election?

Well as unfair as it was, saqifah was an election. 

[Muslim2010]

2 minutes ago, realizm said:

Well as unfair as it was, saqifah was an election. 

The so called election full of furious words on opponents to elect a ruler and to deprive the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from their rights  when bani hashim were busy in the burial of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

[FollowerofIslam]

4 minutes ago, realizm said:

Well as unfair as it was, saqifah was an election. 

Have you read the sermon of Imam Ali AS? He says: "the son of Abu Quhafah dressed himself with it (the Caliphate)" which BLATANTLY indicates there was no 'election'. These are the words of Imam Ali AS.

The facts is said, wish what you wish to believe :).

Wassalam.

[FollowerofIslam]

2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The so called election full of furious words on opponents to elect a ruler and to deprive the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from their rights  when bani hashim were busy in the burial of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Just to add onto that, imagine during the funeral of the Prophet SAWS, you have people who actually pay due respect to him and attend the funeral while those 2 losers go discuss power and leadership...

Like for Gods sake, show the Prophet the respect and attend his funeral

[Muslim2010]

12 hours ago, FollowerofIslam said:

Just to add onto that, imagine during the funeral of the Prophet SAWS, you have people who actually pay due respect to him and attend the funeral while those 2 losers go discuss power and leadership...

Like for Gods sake, show the Prophet the respect and attend his funeral

You are right but the sunni take the action of 2 as basis of their ideology by taking man made caliphate as priority over the funeral of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Is it not rejection of the words of the quran "to follow the prophet",?

I confirm your words to participate in the funeral of the prophet is to follow the prophet in that time instead of showing lust of power by 2 and their companions. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Muslim2010

[realizm]

On 8/24/2021 at 4:45 AM, Muslim2010 said:

The so called election full of furious words on opponents to elect a ruler and to deprive the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from their rights  when bani hashim were busy in the burial of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

 

On 8/24/2021 at 4:47 AM, FollowerofIslam said:

Have you read the sermon of Imam Ali AS? He says: "the son of Abu Quhafah dressed himself with it (the Caliphate)" which BLATANTLY indicates there was no 'election'. These are the words of Imam Ali AS.

The facts is said, wish what you wish to believe :).

Wassalam.

Why do you guys need to be so sensitive about words. The topic is not about define an election, it's about the concept of caliphate. 

I said it was unfair, therefore I recognize that it was not an election in the sense your understand it. It was several parties who in a way agreed to appoint someone, hence my choice of the word election. 

Can we now move on - if someone has any interesting input? 

[FollowerofIslam]

8 hours ago, realizm said:

 

Why do you guys need to be so sensitive about words. The topic is not about define an election, it's about the concept of caliphate. 

I said it was unfair, therefore I recognize that it was not an election in the sense your understand it. It was several parties who in a way agreed to appoint someone, hence my choice of the word election. 

Can we now move on - if someone has any interesting input? 

Brother,

The problem with this is that the greater majority of Sunnis say the Prophet left the leadership for the greater muslim community to elect a new leader for them.

The problem with this is that this didn't even happen. Abu Bakr appointed himself, the proof is as clear as daylight. You are asking a question about something which didn't even happen. Doesn't make sense? 

[Muslim2010]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:13 PM, realizm said:

If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa? 

There are caliphs like MBS, Abu bakr Albagahdadi, Mulla Omar, Taliban leader Mullaa Brother etc (even alive or dead) in present time for sunnis, this is concept for their versions of islam in the leadership of these figure.

Do you have any thing to add, brother?

[Guest Reply]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:13 PM, realizm said:

.

Addressing Sunnis please : 

Is caliphate a pilar of sunni doctrine ? 

If not, why that urge to elect a leader after death of Prophet (sawas) 

If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa? 

I am not Sunni. 
 

Humans will be humans. Leaders are selected for everything. Don’t judge a whole group based on what you believe happened 1500 years ago. 
 

We do not need a caliphate or leader in today’s day, because today’s days are different. Alhamdillah the companions and the family of the prophet has spread Islam this much. And that’s all that should matter to us. We don’t need to worry about them, as they did the works for Allah.

[Guest Reply]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:32 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

I think there are sunnis that believe Islam can exist without the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well...

How when they mention Muhammad in every prayer?

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Guest Reply said:

How when they mention Muhammad in every prayer?

They say Muhammad's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) role was to deliver the Quran which he did so he is not needed anymore.

[pseudonym]

An interesting quote to consider:

French Scholar Henry Corbin "All religions died after the death of their Prophets(عليه السلام), Jews after Moses((عليه السلام)), Christians after Jesus((عليه السلام)) and Sunni Muslims after Mohammad(saaw), But Shia Muslims did not die because they have Hussain((عليه السلام)) at the start who pushes them forward and Mahdi(عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) at the end who invites them to Him, Such nation won't die as they have a goal to achieve.  

[realizm]

On 8/25/2021 at 6:06 PM, Muslim2010 said:

There are caliphs like MBS, Abu bakr Albagahdadi, Mulla Omar, Taliban leader Mullaa Brother etc (even alive or dead) in present time for sunnis, this is concept for their versions of islam in the leadership of these figure.

Do you have any thing to add, brother?

Well since you came up with that, I would  add that MBS and Al Baghdadi were Caliphs simultaneously. Would a doctrine accept that ? 

Edited August 31, 2021 by realizm

[Ali bin Hussein]

I don't think there are many Sunni left on this forum to answer questions.

[Guest Khalid]

On 8/24/2021 at 1:13 AM, realizm said:

.

Addressing Sunnis please : 

Is caliphate a pilar of sunni doctrine ? 

If not, why that urge to elect a leader after death of Prophet (sawas) 

If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa? 

1. No. 

2. Its human nature to have leaders for the community. Even before the coming of our beloved Prophet (s) arabs had leaders,  every tribe had a leader.  Same as bani israel. Hence, there are numerous narrations in both shia and sunni works about good and bad leaders.  

3. Today we have different scenario. Muslims are divided into nations just like non muslims, each having their own system of govt and constitution. This is also predicted in a hadith.

https://medium.com/@fikrmustanir/does-the-hadith-about-the-5-periods-of-rulership-in-musnad-ahmad-مسند-احمد-and-that-the-last-of-1cb559ff266f

 

W. Salam

[Guest Reply]

On 8/30/2021 at 12:43 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

They say Muhammad's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) role was to deliver the Quran which he did so he is not needed anymore.

Who is “They” 

first you need to understand one thing. 
as a former Sunni 

not one other Sunni I personally knew actually knows why they call themselves a Sunni. 

we don’t follow any caliphates or leaders. 
 

out of curiosity so I understand you better. What else is Muhammad needed for exactly?

 

yes he delivered the Quran and we still mention him in our prayers. 
 

what exactly else do we need to do lol?

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Guest Reply said:

Who is “They” 

first you need to understand one thing. 
as a former Sunni 

not one other Sunni I personally knew actually knows why they call themselves a Sunni.

Do you know?

1 hour ago, Guest Reply said:

we don’t follow any caliphates or leaders. 
 

out of curiosity so I understand you better. What else is Muhammad needed for exactly?

 

yes he delivered the Quran and we still mention him in our prayers. 
 

what exactly else do we need to do lol?

"We" as in sunni or "we" as in Shia?

Apparently he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will do our shifa'at on the Day of Judgement so there is that...

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

Quote

yes he delivered the Quran and we still mention him in our prayers. 
 

what exactly else do we need to do lol?

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولًا مِنْكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمْ مَا لَمْ تَكُونُوا تَعْلَمُونَ {151}

[Shakir 2:151] Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know.
[Pickthal 2:151] Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.
[Yusufali 2:151] A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.

2:129 & 3:164

This slogan of delivered is misrepresentation, to give an impression of a mailman. At least read the Book. 

You don't mention, by your own . You are Commanded to understand the status/importance in your life  and  send Blessings or your prayers are invalid.  

When you do write the Name, at least follow the Book

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا {56}

[Shakir 33:56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.
[Pickthal 33:56] Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.
[Yusufali 33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

[realizm]

10 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I don't think there are many Sunni left on this forum to answer questions.

Actually they often come as guests. 

 

8 hours ago, Guest Khalid said:

1. No. 

2. Its human nature to have leaders for the community. Even before the coming of our beloved Prophet (s) arabs had leaders,  every tribe had a leader.  Same as bani israel. Hence, there are numerous narrations in both shia and sunni works about good and bad leaders.  

3. Today we have different scenario. Muslims are divided into nations just like non muslims, each having their own system of govt and constitution. This is also predicted in a hadith.

https://medium.com/@fikrmustanir/does-the-hadith-about-the-5-periods-of-rulership-in-musnad-ahmad-مسند-احمد-and-that-the-last-of-1cb559ff266f

 

W. Salam

Thanks for replying. 

I understand that 'it's nature' argument. Yet what I want to understand is your feelings about why Saqifa took place and why was it so urgent that a leader was appointed quickly. 

For us Shias, Imamate/Caliphate is from amongst basics of creed, so we have a reason to believe that Ali (عليه السلام) would claim his due position after Prophet (sawas) died. But since it is not a prerequisite for Sunni Islam, I wonder why Sunnis even consider the election of Abu Bakr as legit and not consider it bid`a, like they usually do when something is added to their religion. 

[Guest Reply]

On 8/31/2021 at 1:20 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Do you know?

"We" as in sunni or "we" as in Shia?

Apparently he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will do our shifa'at on the Day of Judgement so there is that...

Yes I know why. 
because in 6th grade Shias told me if I pray with my hands crossed I’m a Sunni. 
 

all until I studied Islam for Myself did I call myself a Sunni because of one child. 
And then I understood why majority of Sunnis label themselves Sunnis because they really don’t know why. 

[ShiaMan14]

6 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Yes I know why. 
because in 6th grade Shias told me if I pray with my hands crossed I’m a Sunni. 
 

all until I studied Islam for Myself did I call myself a Sunni because of one child. 
And then I understood why majority of Sunnis label themselves Sunnis because they really don’t know why. 
 

 

Where/how did the term originate?

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:55 PM, Guest Reply said:

Yes I know why. 
because in 6th grade Shias told me if I pray with my hands crossed I’m a Sunni. 
 

all until I studied Islam for Myself did I call myself a Sunni because of one child. 
And then I understood why majority of Sunnis label themselves Sunnis because they really don’t know why. 

Salam , You have mentioned a good point for @Debate follower which has claimed that 99.9 percent of Shias have choosen their faith without Aql.

 

On 8/31/2021 at 5:55 PM, Guest Reply said:

all until I studied Islam for Myself did I call myself a Sunni because of one child.

Althought  your reason is not convincing anyway just out of curisity what has been your resource(s) for self study.

On 8/31/2021 at 11:57 AM, Guest Reply said:

we don’t follow any caliphates or leaders.

according to sunni scholar Abu Hafs Umar al-Nasafi any muslim must have an Imam (Khaleefah) based on link which has been provided by Guest Khalid

Imam Al-Juzayri, an expert on the Fiqh of the four great schools of thought said regarding the four Imams, ....

Quote

 “The Imams (scholars of the four schools of thought- Shafi’i, Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali)-may Allah have mercy on them- agree that the Imamah (Leadership) is an obligation

 

Quote

Abu Hafs Umar al-Nasafi (rh.a.) a noted scholar of the 6th century Hijri states;

“The Muslims simply must have an Imam (Khaleefah),who will execute the rules, establish the Hudud (penal system), defend the frontiers, equip the armies, collect Zakah, punish those who rebel (against the state) and those who spy and highwaymen, establish Jum’ah and the two ‘Eids, settle the dispute among the servants (of Allah),accept the testimony of witnesses in matters of legal rights, give in marriage the young and the poor who have no family, and distribute the booty”.

https://medium.com/@fikrmustanir/does-the-hadith-about-the-5-periods-of-rulership-in-musnad-ahmad-مسند-احمد-and-that-the-last-of-1cb559ff266f

[Guest Khalid]

On 8/31/2021 at 4:13 PM, realizm said:

Thanks for replying. 

I understand that 'it's nature' argument. Yet what I want to understand is your feelings about why Saqifa took place and why was it so urgent that a leader was appointed quickly. 

For us Shias, Imamate/Caliphate is from amongst basics of creed, so we have a reason to believe that Ali (عليه السلام) would claim his due position after Prophet (sawas) died. But since it is not a prerequisite for Sunni Islam, I wonder why Sunnis even consider the election of Abu Bakr as legit and not consider it bid`a, like they usually do when something is added to their religion. 

1. Motive was to avoid the corruption and division. 

[Al-Kafi vol-8 Hadith-19]

From Muhammad Bin Muslim who has said: Abu Ja’far (asws) regarding the Statement of the Mighty and Majestic: “[30:41] Corruption has appeared in the land and the sea on account of what the hands of men have wrought”, he (asws) said: ‘By Allah (azwj), that was when the ‘Al-Ansar’ (Helpers) said, ‘from us should be an Emir (commander), and from you should be an Emir’ (referring to Saqifa).

Grading: 

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: صحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (5 / 129)

Shaykh Baqir al-Behbudi: صحيح - Sahih al-Kafi (3/383)

2. Imam Ali (a) claimed Imamat for himself or not is already been discussed here but...  No solid proof was provided. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235013470-did-imam-ali-declare-himself-as-a-divine-imam/

[Guest Reply]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:13 PM, realizm said:

.

Addressing Sunnis please : 

Is caliphate a pilar of sunni doctrine ? 

If not, why that urge to elect a leader after death of Prophet (sawas) 

If so, what of today's Islam without a khilafa? 

Sunnis are called Sunni because it means majority. Not because it’s an actual Sect, little do people know. 
 

as a former Sunni I never cared for a caliph. Nor raised caring for them. Just a Islamic story. You’re asking people today like anyone on earth would know the urge to elect one. But the general answer is logical, it’s a human nature to lead and elect a leader. 
 
So to answer, we don’t need a caliph nor do you. We have Allah. 

[Abu_Zahra]

5 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Sunnis are called Sunni because it means majority.

No it doesn't. 

[Muhammad A-H]

6 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

Sunnis are called Sunni because it means majority.

A Sunni (سني) means a person who follows the Sunnah (سنة) of the Prophet. Hence, the letter yaa' at the end of the word سني.

[Guest Reply]

On 9/3/2021 at 11:49 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

A Sunni (سني) means a person who follows the Sunnah (سنة) of the Prophet. Hence, the letter yaa' at the end of the word سني.

Correct. My mistake. 

On 9/3/2021 at 10:48 PM, Mahdavist said:

No it doesn't. 

My mistake. I heard one time. After I sent that reply I looked it up. 

——_

either way. A Muslim doesn’t need anybody but Allah. Muhammad, brought us his words. His companions and family tried (in their own REGULAR human ways) to continue the message. 
but no man should take another normal man as a spiritual leader, caliph, guider, etc. Muhammad didn’t need no one. 
so live like him, since that’s what Shias are claiming they are trying to do. 

[realizm]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:39 PM, Guest Reply said:

Sunnis are called Sunni because it means majority. Not because it’s an actual Sect, little do people know. 

as a former Sunni I never cared for a caliph. Nor raised caring for them. Just a Islamic story. You’re asking people today like anyone on earth would know the urge to elect one. But the general answer is logical, it’s a human nature to lead and elect a leader. 
 
So to answer, we don’t need a caliph nor do you. We have Allah. 

I am asking because just as we Shias claim our Imams (عليه السلام), Sunnis do with their Caliphs. It's a paradigm, one Sunni doesn't think of true Islam without the salaf which include those Caliphs. 

Btw I think you're just not the average sunni, or former, I am not sure what your position is. 

[Debate follower]

On 8/24/2021 at 1:32 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

I think there are sunnis that believe Islam can exist without the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well...

That’s exactly what the 12er shias believe.

That’s why you have the 12^th Imam guiding you all like the sun behind the clouds.  –

See for yourself. Children from under 12 years are taught that their first line of call for help is the 12th imam!

For he is the saviour/caretaker/supporter/guide/protector/saviour – the Omnipresent

Call Imam Mahdi (for kids under 12 years old)

When things go wrong,
As they sometimes will,
Call Imam Mahdi.
He will change that sigh into a smile
Call Imam Mahdi.
He is your saviour, your care taker
You will not be left alone never
When you’re ever hurt, and you need support
Call Imam Mahdi.
When the road you're treading seems uphill,
And worries press you downhill,
Call Imam Mahdi.
Rest if you must but don't you quit,
Call Imam Mahdi.
Success is failure inside out,
You never know how close you are,
So call Imam Mahdi,
He is always watching over you
If you are confused on what to do
When you’re feeling low and you just don’t know
Call Imam Mahdi.
Say the truth and be kind to others
Listen to and respect your elders
He will be so proud, if together out loud we
Call Imam Mahdi.

https://mohammadfnd.org/en/kids-and-teens/poem-and-story/call-imam-mahdi-for-kids-under-12-years-old

On 8/31/2021 at 5:57 PM, Guest Reply said:

first you need to understand one thing. 
as a former Sunni 

not one other Sunni I personally knew actually knows why they call themselves a Sunni. 

You must in company of minority of ONE!  By this you are just exposing your own ignorance!

On 9/1/2021 at 10:48 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , You have mentioned a good point for @Debate follower which has claimed that 99.9 percent of Shias have choosen their faith without Aql.

Brother Ashvazdanghe, please, don’t misinterpret/misrepresent what I said in the other thread.  This is as good as lying shamelessly!

Go back and see what I had written and in what context!

I had NOT said only Shias but also Sunnis, including myself!  Below I am quoting myself.

Quote

If I were to ask 99.9% of members on Shiachat (including you), why they are Shia?  Obviously by birth and not using God-given Aql. Same would go me and majority of Sunnis of every shade and colour obviously by birth.

Take yourself, your extended family, your immediate neighbourhood, the city you reside in ….. I’ll leave there for the moment –
where they all born into Shiaism?    I am sure the 100% Yes!

Did anyone of them revert from any other faith? I am sure 100% will be No!

Same will apply to any average Sunni

In both cases people were in their sect not by Choice but by BIRTH - See in both cases Aql comes secondary!

I hope this was not very difficult for you to understand.

Please, next time refrain from misquoting and misinterpreting others.   This amounts to dishonesty.

[Guest Reply]

4 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

That’s exactly what the 12er shias believe.

That’s why you have the 12^th Imam guiding you all like the sun behind the clouds.  –

See for yourself. Children from under 12 years are taught that their first line of call for help is the 12th imam!

For he is the saviour/caretaker/supporter/guide/protector/saviour – the Omnipresent

Call Imam Mahdi (for kids under 12 years old)

When things go wrong,
As they sometimes will,
Call Imam Mahdi.
He will change that sigh into a smile
Call Imam Mahdi.
He is your saviour, your care taker
You will not be left alone never
When you’re ever hurt, and you need support
Call Imam Mahdi.
When the road you're treading seems uphill,
And worries press you downhill,
Call Imam Mahdi.
Rest if you must but don't you quit,
Call Imam Mahdi.
Success is failure inside out,
You never know how close you are,
So call Imam Mahdi,
He is always watching over you
If you are confused on what to do
When you’re feeling low and you just don’t know
Call Imam Mahdi.
Say the truth and be kind to others
Listen to and respect your elders
He will be so proud, if together out loud we
Call Imam Mahdi.

https://mohammadfnd.org/en/kids-and-teens/poem-and-story/call-imam-mahdi-for-kids-under-12-years-old

You must in company of minority of ONE!  By this you are just exposing your own ignorance!

Brother Ashvazdanghe, please, don’t misinterpret/misrepresent what I said in the other thread.  This is as good as lying shamelessly!

Go back and see what I had written and in what context!

I had NOT said only Shias but also Sunnis, including myself!  Below I am quoting myself.

Take yourself, your extended family, your immediate neighbourhood, the city you reside in ….. I’ll leave there for the moment –
where they all born into Shiaism?    I am sure the 100% Yes!

Did anyone of them revert from any other faith? I am sure 100% will be No!

Same will apply to any average Sunni

In both cases people were in their sect not by Choice but by BIRTH - See in both cases Aql comes secondary!

I hope this was not very difficult for you to understand.

Please, next time refrain from misquoting and misinterpreting others.   This amounts to dishonesty.

You say you’re a Sunni and I must pick a side or I’m ignorant. 
 

allah said he will punish people who divide islam and become into a sect. 
 

so why am I ignorant?

why don’t you take your own advice and see how blind you are being by labeling yourself a Sunni just like you said 100% of the people born are born into it. 
 

don’t be a sheep. 
 

——- 

As for the Imam Mahdi things 100% accurate this is haram 

 

call on to NONE but Allah 

[ShiaMan14]

25 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

That’s exactly what the 12er shias believe.

That’s why you have the 12^th Imam guiding you all like the sun behind the clouds.  –

See for yourself. Children from under 12 years are taught that their first line of call for help is the 12th imam!

For he is the saviour/caretaker/supporter/guide/protector/saviour – the Omnipresent

Call Imam Mahdi (for kids under 12 years old)

When things go wrong,
As they sometimes will,
Call Imam Mahdi.
He will change that sigh into a smile
Call Imam Mahdi.
He is your saviour, your care taker
You will not be left alone never
When you’re ever hurt, and you need support
Call Imam Mahdi.
When the road you're treading seems uphill,
And worries press you downhill,
Call Imam Mahdi.
Rest if you must but don't you quit,
Call Imam Mahdi.
Success is failure inside out,
You never know how close you are,
So call Imam Mahdi,
He is always watching over you
If you are confused on what to do
When you’re feeling low and you just don’t know
Call Imam Mahdi.
Say the truth and be kind to others
Listen to and respect your elders
He will be so proud, if together out loud we
Call Imam Mahdi.

https://mohammadfnd.org/en/kids-and-teens/poem-and-story/call-imam-mahdi-for-kids-under-12-years-old

Lol. Are you really presenting a poem as evidence?

Read dua tawassul...who is first I it?