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In the Name of God بسم الله

Here Are Some Point Which Debunk Sunni Islam

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52 minutes ago, FollowerofIslam said:

Assalam Alaykum everyone!

Now before I begin, it is very important that I need to state this and for the reader to keep this mind while reading the below: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created the human being and everything attached to that human being such as sexual desires, intellect, etc. Thus, what I want you the reader to realize is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the intellect for a reason and that we must use it as he says this in the Quran, think and not follow blindly what our forefathers follow.

Points:

1) The Prophet had always appointed a successor behind him EVEN when he left his own house (agreed by Sunnis), how in the world could he leave the WORLD without appointing a successor??? Use your intellect.

2) If the Prophet left the leadership for people to decide (election as Sunnis believe), why was there no election committee? And the funny thing is the people didn’t even decide, it was just a few who were with Abu Bakr and Omar at Saqifah who decided (agreed by Sunnis) the greater people had no say in it whatsoever. Use your intellect.

3) Not a single prophet or messenger out of the 124,000 had a successor who was chosen by people or had an election, you will find all of those successors were chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which is what the Shia believe for the final Prophet as well. Use your intellect.

4) Lets say we were to imagine the prophet left the leadership for an election, why was there no election for Omar’s Caliphate? Abu Bakr literally handed the Caliphate to Omar, his best friend, not a single person had a say in it. Sunnis believe this too, it’s funny because if a Christian were to look at their “election system” they would burst out laughing. A similar thing happened for Uthman’s Caliphate as well, anyways, please use your intellect. 
 

5) Why did Khalid bin Walid who is praised by Sunnis as the commander of Abu Bakrs army, murder Malik bin Nuwayrah and sleep with his wife in the same night when he refused to pay zakat to Abu Bakrs caliphate and said he would only pay it to Ali bin Abu Talib? This scenario is in Sunni books and tafasur. Can give reference if someone ask.

Jazakullah,

There are tons of other points which I have researched but I wanted to give some for the people who may have a weak Shia foundation or those who are hesitant to convert to Shia Islam. The Prophet said in a hadeeth:

This religion will be split into 73 sects, all will go to Jahannam, and 1 will go to Jannah. 

I myself swear to you by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), this sect is the sect which had remained loyal to the Prophets successor after his death, this man is called Ali ibn Abi Talib.

Man kunto mawla, fa hatha Aliyyun mawla.

”Who ever I am his leader, Ali is also his leader!”

Wassalam.

The following thread is linked for confirming the ideology & creed that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed the prophets, imams, caliphs, successors, leaders as mentioned in the verses of Quran.  There has been no selection, election or any consultation made by the people for their appointment.

wasalam

 

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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

The following thread is linked for confirming the ideology & creed that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed the prophets, imams, caliphs, successors, leaders as mentioned in the verses of Quran.  There has been no selection, election or any consultation made by the people for their appointment.

wasalam

 

Salam brother,

Those are very good points and references made by the Quran, backed by nothing but the Quran itself and logic.

Thank you!

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Also to mention those people of tunni defense tried their level best to prove follow Ahlebait wasn't an authentic part of Hadith of Thaqalayn.

I'm linking a detailed article about the narrator that refutes their deceptions and proves its authentic.

This article contains detailed refutation of their scholars who weakened Attiyah Al-Aufi. And proved that Hadith of Thaqalayn has authentic wordings of following Ahlebait (عليه السلام) parallel to Quran Kareem.

 

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On 8/21/2021 at 5:53 PM, FollowerofIslam said:

1) The Prophet had always appointed a successor behind him EVEN when he left his own house (agreed by Sunnis), how in the world could he leave the WORLD without appointing a successor??? Use your intellect.

The biggest problem you’ll have with this line of reasoning is that you have no access to any real leader right now as we speak. The fact that Wilaytul Faqih had to be developed shows that this line of reasoning is flawed. 

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9 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

The biggest problem you’ll have with this line of reasoning is that you have no access to any real leader right now as we speak. The fact that Wilaytul Faqih had to be developed shows that this line of reasoning is flawed. 

Atleast there is reasoning and common sense being applied, unlike our brothers from Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jama'ah. Our aql is a creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and he repeatedly says to use our aql in the Quran.

Wassalam.

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14 hours ago, FollowerofIslam said:

Atleast there is reasoning and common sense being applied, unlike our brothers from Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jama'ah. Our aql is a creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and he repeatedly says to use our aql in the Quran.

Wassalam.

Well at least use your aql here then.

Sunnis have been electing rulers from day one and yet they still do.

where as the undercover brother stated you have no god chosen leader to lead you, since after Hussein as.

Where is your aql now?…….Mahdi?!? Where is he now? At least Sunnis have their leaders and show it, you say god chooses yours but for the last 1400 years there has been none.

Aql……I think that word deludes people like you, you have no understanding of words just empty rhetoric.

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14 hours ago, Guest Jhon said:

Well at least use your aql here then.

Sunnis have been electing rulers from day one and yet they still do.

where as the undercover brother stated you have no god chosen leader to lead you, since after Hussein as.

Where is your aql now?…….Mahdi?!? Where is he now? At least Sunnis have their leaders and show it, you say god chooses yours but for the last 1400 years there has been none.

Aql……I think that word deludes people like you, you have no understanding of words just empty rhetoric.

“Electing leaders”? 
 

Give me the members of the election commission for Abu Bakr… oh wait there was none.

Why did Omar not have an election?

Why was there only 6 members in charge of choosing Uthman whom these members were chosen by Omar?

This is in your tafasir my friend, if you have a problem with your history, please go to your local Imam who may explain to you.

Or you may think that election means dictatorship? Election mean there is a choice from the people to choose…

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18 hours ago, Guest Jhon said:

Well at least use your aql here then.

Sunnis have been electing rulers from day one and yet they still do.

where as the undercover brother stated you have no god chosen leader to lead you, since after Hussein as.

Where is your aql now?…….Mahdi?!? Where is he now? At least Sunnis have their leaders and show it, you say god chooses yours but for the last 1400 years there has been none.

Aql……I think that word deludes people like you, you have no understanding of words just empty rhetoric.

Please brother explain what election you are talking about?

Give me just one hadeeth from your books that says a random Muslim at that time had a vote in whether Abu Bakrs election. Go to your tafasirs, your Saheehs, your Muslim, your Bukharis. There was not even an election commission for this so called election. The greater people had no say in Abu Bakrs caliphate. What election are you talking about?

Are you talking about Omar’s election? Oh wait, there was no election because Omar was handed the Khilafah from Abu Bakr without a single voice having a say in it. This is your Saheehs my friend and history from the Sunni perspective, forget about the Shia books here. I can destroy your faith just from your books and logic. So what election are you talking about here?

Now for Uthman, Omar appoints 6 individuals to elect the next Caliph after him. These individuals were chosen by Omar, so where is the election here?

If a non-Muslim were to look at the so called elections of these people and see how Sunnis think, they would burst out laughing.

Look at how the Sunnis praise and revere Khalid bin Walid. This Khalid bin Walid is the same man who murdered Malik bin Nuwayrah, one of the great companions of the Prophet when he told Khalid that he will not pay taxes to Abu Bakrs government and that he would only pay it  to Ali ibn Abi Talib. He beheaded Malik and slept with his wife the same day!!! This is in your tafasir for Gods sake!!

I want everyone reading this to search Khalid bin Walid and just the YouTube titles praising him so much. Disgusting.

Read your own books before you start looking at the Shia of Ali.

Edited by FollowerofIslam
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On 8/23/2021 at 1:21 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

The biggest problem you’ll have with this line of reasoning is that you have no access to any real leader right now as we speak. 

I don't think such a problem of access to the Imam (عليه السلام) is even related to successor by God, they are two different things.

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2 hours ago, FollowerofIslam said:

Please brother explain what election you are talking about?

Give me just one hadeeth from your books that says a random Muslim at that time had a vote in whether Abu Bakrs election. Go to your tafasirs, your Saheehs, your Muslim, your Bukharis. There was not even an election commission for this so called election. The greater people had no say in Abu Bakrs caliphate. What election are you talking about?

Are you talking about Omar’s election? Oh wait, there was no election because Omar was handed the Khilafah from Abu Bakr without a single voice having a say in it. This is your Saheehs my friend and history from the Sunni perspective, forget about the Shia books here. I can destroy your faith just from your books and logic. So what election are you talking about here?

Now for Uthman, Omar appoints 6 individuals to elect the next Caliph after him. These individuals were chosen by Omar, so where is the election here?

If a non-Muslim were to look at the so called elections of these people and see how Sunnis think, they would burst out laughing.

Look at how the Sunnis praise and revere Khalid bin Walid. This Khalid bin Walid is the same man who murdered Malik bin Nuwayrah, one of the great companions of the Prophet when he told Khalid that he will not pay taxes to Abu Bakrs government and that he would only pay it  to Ali ibn Abi Talib. He beheaded Malik and slept with his wife the same day!!! This is in your tafasir for Gods sake!!

I want everyone reading this to search Khalid bin Walid and just the YouTube titles praising him so much. Disgusting.

Read your own books before you start looking at the Shia of Ali.

Why should we argue about the Khilafa of Sunni Islam when it itself has nothing to do with principles of Sunni Islam. Khilafa for them is a fallible political leader of the Ummah who live by period of time and dies, he can be either evil or good, the same way how the kings in Christians and Jews have been formed in the past.

If you want to criticize Sunni Islam, then you need to focus on the principles of Sunni Islam, their Aqidah, Tawheed etc, those principles that differ from others and those that are the foundation of the Sunni Islam.

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On 8/23/2021 at 3:21 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

The biggest problem you’ll have with this line of reasoning is that you have no access to any real leader right now as we speak.

No one ever had access to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and even in this day, we don' have access to Allah yet we all receive guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) same is the case for 12th Imam. It is in hadiths that he helps and guides people just like warmth of sun reaches people even in a cloudy day.

Now if you say like tunni defense that these are all lames excuses and practically 12th imam isn't guiding us, then same applies to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). According to this logic, practically even Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't guiding anyone since we dont have access to him today while this goes against Quran Surah lail where Allah said guidance is upon him. (his duty to guide people) neither do we have Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)'s whatsapp number ( statement exclusive to Eng. Muhammad Ali Mirza's followers )

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On 8/23/2021 at 3:21 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

The fact that Wilaytul Faqih had to be developed shows that this line of reasoning is flawed.

Wilayah Al-Faqih is just a recent innovation in Shia Islam. You'll many Scholars Mujtahids rejecting this non sense.

You should know the fact that since 260th Hijri, shias have survived well while there was no such theory.

Even in times of Aima (عليه السلام), even Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ( you may go read your own riwayahs ) Sahaba used to spread Islam and teach it. Thats what is the purpose of scholars. Our scholars have been doing this since 260th Hijri ( actually from the time of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to be correct )

Doesn't make any sense how this equates to Sunni System of caliphate. I think according to you there is no difference between identifying an honest aadil scholar and following him *to* follow Quran and Ahlebait vs making a caliph and thinking he is Ulil-Amr and Caliph of his time and thinking his ataat is obligatory. ( again non-sense of wilayah al faqih aside )

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22 hours ago, Guest Jhon said:

Well at least use your aql here then.

Sunnis have been electing rulers from day one and yet they still do.

where as the undercover brother stated you have no god chosen leader to lead you, since after Hussein as.

Where is your aql now?…….Mahdi?!? Where is he now? At least Sunnis have their leaders and show it, you say god chooses yours but for the last 1400 years there has been none.

Aql……I think that word deludes people like you, you have no understanding of words just empty rhetoric.

I think you should use your aql + eyes and see riwayahs in our books that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) indeed choose the successor of 11th Imam (عليه السلام). seems like you didn't bother to read them.

Also go look in your Sahihs when Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave the news that hour (qayamah) will not come until people have been governed by 12 caliphs or islamic dominance will continue till 12 caliphs etc.

They're already pre-determined . Use aql bro.

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On 8/22/2021 at 12:38 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Haq Ali (عليه السلام) Mola.

Remember there was a Salafi named Night Claw here who debated us here at shiachat but failed to prove the claims of tunni defense and ts .net made regarding Ghadeer e khum?

We proved to him that what he said had no basis and that topic Alhumdulillah is available to all people accessing shiachat.

Linking topic to add more weight to your post!

 

What a great thread. Conclusion : nothing authentic linking it to Yemen

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On 8/23/2021 at 11:21 AM, UndercoverBrother said:

The biggest problem you’ll have with this line of reasoning is that you have no access to any real leader right now as we speak. The fact that Wilaytul Faqih had to be developed shows that this line of reasoning is flawed. 

This is not true as a general discussion between Sunni and Shia.

The point you were replying to can be used by all Shia to support the succession of Imam Ali 

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On 8/21/2021 at 3:53 PM, FollowerofIslam said:

Assalam Alaykum everyone!

Now before I begin, it is very important that I need to state this and for the reader to keep this mind while reading the below: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created the human being and everything attached to that human being such as sexual desires, intellect, etc. Thus, what I want you the reader to realize is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the intellect for a reason and that we must use it as he says this in the Quran, think and not follow blindly what our forefathers follow.

Wa ‘aaykum Salaam, It is good to know that you acknowledge that “Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the intellect for a
reason and that we must use it as he says this in the Quran….”  


It must be news to you, but trust me, there are many other people of intellect, who do use the gift of intellect
bestowed upon them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Please don’t delude yourself by assuming that intellect is in short supply.

By posting your ‘research’ on Shiachat you definitely got a lot of accolades and pats on the back for your painstakingly written article, no doubt about it. You are singing to the ‘converted’ crowd.

The real test of your ‘research article’ would be if you have the courage to post it on some serious Sunni Boards and see it ripped to smithereens.  What you have written is nothing new. If you had done a search on Shiachat, I am sure you would find these points raised by you discussed repeatedly over the years.

On 8/21/2021 at 3:53 PM, FollowerofIslam said:

Man kunto mawla, fa hatha Aliyyun mawla.

”Who ever I am his leader, Ali is also his leader!”

Wassalam.

Man kunto mawla, fa hatha Aliyyun mawla.

”Who ever I am his leader, Ali is also his leader!”

Definitely, the Arabic part of the above is right; but you translated it to suit your sectarian desires.  The word Mawla occurs many time the Blessed Qur’an – nowhere does it mean to be a leader!!!!!!!!  See a few ayahs quoted for you.  The word Mawla has other meanings too but not leader.

anta mawlānā fa-unṣur'nā ʿalā l-qawmi l-kāfirīn
You (are) our Protector, so help us against the people - [the] disbelievers - 286 Al-Baqara

bali l-lahu mawlākum wahuwa khayru l-nāṣirīn
Nay, Allah (is) your Protector and He (is the) best (of) the Helpers. 150 Al- Imran

thumma ruddū ilā l-lahi mawlāhumu l-ḥaqi alā lahu l-ḥuk'mu wahuwa asraʿu l-ḥāsibīn
Then they are returned to Allah their Protector - [the] True, Unquestionably, for Him (is) the judgment? And He (is) swiftest (of) the Reckoners. 62 al an-Anam

Mawla can be an evil patron as well.

yadʿū laman ḍarruhu aqrabu min nafʿihi labi'sa l-mawlā walabi'sa l-ʿashīr
They invoke those whose worship leads to harm, not benefit. What an evil patron and what an evil associate!

Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

 

دَعُوني وَالْـتَمِسُوا غَيْرِي; فإِنَّا مُسْتَقْبِلُونَ أَمْراً لَهُ وُجُوهٌ وَأَلْوَانٌ; لاَ تَقُومُ لَهُ الْقُلُوبُ، وَلاَ تَثْبُتُ عَلَيْهِ الْعُقُولُ، وَإِنَّ الاْفَاقَ قَدْ أَغَامَتْ، وَالْـمَحَجَّةَ قَدْ

تَنَكَّرَتْ. وَاعْلَمُوا أَنِّي إنْ أَجَبْتُكُمْ رَكِبْتُ بِكُمْ مَا أَعْلَمُ، وَلَمْ أُصْغِ إِلَى قَوْلِ الْقَائِلِ وَعَتْبِ الْعَاتِبِ، وَإِنْ تَرَكْتُمُونِي فَأَنَا كَأَحَدِكُمْ; وَلَعَلِّي أَسْمَعُكُمْ وَأَطْوَعُكُمْ لِمنْ وَلَّيْتُمُوهُ أَمْرَكُمْ، وَأَنَا لَكُمْ وَزِيراً، خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ مِنِّي أَمِيراً!

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand, nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a VAZIER (counsellor) than as Ameer (chief).  - Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

Can someone who is Divinely appointed to a position have an option to delegate that Divine appointment it someone else?

Can a person who is Divinely appointed to a position willing serve under a person who is selected by the people, and advise them to do so?

If, you say “YES” grudgingly to the above (and making excuses for this) you’re implicitly agreeing that this Divine appointment is not taken seriously.

Wasalaam

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7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

 

Can someone who is Divinely appointed to a position have an option to delegate that Divine appointment it someone else?

Can a person who is Divinely appointed to a position willing serve under a person who is selected by the people, and advise them to do so?

If, you say “YES” grudgingly to the above (and making excuses for this) you’re implicitly agreeing that this Divine appointment is not taken seriously.

If i were to quote a hadeeth from your books, proving something against Sahaba, you'll yell at me for one of these reasons:

1. Weak or Fabricated Chain

2. Misquoting Hadeeth

3. Absence of Chain

When you quote Nahaj ul-balagha, why you people never ever bring chain to sermon at least? 

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) spent his life advising people but no one ever said he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did a job for kuffar. He was kind with them and used to help them, advise them for betterment of their life in this world and hereafter.

Where did Imam Ali (عليه السلام) delegate Imamah to anyone in this sermon? You are just making up or probably assuming things.

7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a VAZIER (counsellor) than as Ameer (chief).

The matn itself is crystal clear that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never delegated Imamah to anyone rather told people to seek someone else because according to him they will have a hard time keeping up with him (عليه السلام) as a leader.

Therefore Imam (عليه السلام) just said to take him as a advisor rather than a leader. This isn't delegation. For God's sake, stop misquoting hadiths.

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7 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Definitely, the Arabic part of the above is right; but you translated it to suit your sectarian desires.  The word Mawla occurs many time the Blessed Qur’an – nowhere does it mean to be a leader!!!!!!!! 

Meaning of words are always determined by the context of speech they appear in not just by quoting random verses.

I seriously don't know where is aql of AhleSunnah :mod:

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21 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Wilayah Al-Faqih is just a recent innovation in Shia Islam. You'll many Scholars Mujtahids rejecting this non sense.

You should know the fact that since 260th Hijri, shias have survived well while there was no such theory.

Salam, I totally  disagree because It's not an innovation  at all , because infallible  Imams have been  Wali Al-Faqih of their time before occultation which after occultation  Imam Mahdi (aj) has reffered  to narrators  of hadith as trained Wali Faqih which such training has been started since time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) as people who people  could reffer to them when they have not access to Imams due to some reasons  likewise when people were in far places or Imams have been in prison which we can call Sheikh Mufid (رضي الله عنه) as first Wali Faqih from fallible shia scholars under supervision  of Imam Mahdi (aj) during his occultation however some of Akhbari scholars have rejected it but they have been a small  group even between  Akhbaris.

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On 8/25/2021 at 10:25 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I think you should use your aql + eyes and see riwayahs in our books that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) indeed choose the successor of 11th Imam (عليه السلام). seems like you didn't bother to read them.

Also go look in your Sahihs when Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave the news that hour (qayamah) will not come until people have been governed by 12 caliphs or islamic dominance will continue till 12 caliphs etc.

They're already pre-determined . Use aql bro.

Why use riwayah AND then use aql???

why not just use the Quran as well as your aql…….nowhere will you find chosen ahlubaith.

12 KALIPHS all from QURAISH.

NOT 12 imams from ahlubaith.

I think aql isn’t in the equation for you especially when trying to twist hadiths to suit your agenda. 
 

so simple but too much for your aql I suppose.

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15 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Wa ‘aaykum Salaam, It is good to know that you acknowledge that “Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the intellect for a
reason and that we must use it as he says this in the Quran….”  


It must be news to you, but trust me, there are many other people of intellect, who do use the gift of intellect
bestowed upon them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Please don’t delude yourself by assuming that intellect is in short supply.

By posting your ‘research’ on Shiachat you definitely got a lot of accolades and pats on the back for your painstakingly written article, no doubt about it. You are singing to the ‘converted’ crowd.

The real test of your ‘research article’ would be if you have the courage to post it on some serious Sunni Boards and see it ripped to smithereens.  What you have written is nothing new. If you had done a search on Shiachat, I am sure you would find these points raised by you discussed repeatedly over the years.

Man kunto mawla, fa hatha Aliyyun mawla.

”Who ever I am his leader, Ali is also his leader!”

Definitely, the Arabic part of the above is right; but you translated it to suit your sectarian desires.  The word Mawla occurs many time the Blessed Qur’an – nowhere does it mean to be a leader!!!!!!!!  See a few ayahs quoted for you.  The word Mawla has other meanings too but not leader.

anta mawlānā fa-unṣur'nā ʿalā l-qawmi l-kāfirīn
You (are) our Protector, so help us against the people - [the] disbelievers - 286 Al-Baqara

bali l-lahu mawlākum wahuwa khayru l-nāṣirīn
Nay, Allah (is) your Protector and He (is the) best (of) the Helpers. 150 Al- Imran

thumma ruddū ilā l-lahi mawlāhumu l-ḥaqi alā lahu l-ḥuk'mu wahuwa asraʿu l-ḥāsibīn
Then they are returned to Allah their Protector - [the] True, Unquestionably, for Him (is) the judgment? And He (is) swiftest (of) the Reckoners. 62 al an-Anam

Mawla can be an evil patron as well.

yadʿū laman ḍarruhu aqrabu min nafʿihi labi'sa l-mawlā walabi'sa l-ʿashīr
They invoke those whose worship leads to harm, not benefit. What an evil patron and what an evil associate!

Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

 

دَعُوني وَالْـتَمِسُوا غَيْرِي; فإِنَّا مُسْتَقْبِلُونَ أَمْراً لَهُ وُجُوهٌ وَأَلْوَانٌ; لاَ تَقُومُ لَهُ الْقُلُوبُ، وَلاَ تَثْبُتُ عَلَيْهِ الْعُقُولُ، وَإِنَّ الاْفَاقَ قَدْ أَغَامَتْ، وَالْـمَحَجَّةَ قَدْ

تَنَكَّرَتْ. وَاعْلَمُوا أَنِّي إنْ أَجَبْتُكُمْ رَكِبْتُ بِكُمْ مَا أَعْلَمُ، وَلَمْ أُصْغِ إِلَى قَوْلِ الْقَائِلِ وَعَتْبِ الْعَاتِبِ، وَإِنْ تَرَكْتُمُونِي فَأَنَا كَأَحَدِكُمْ; وَلَعَلِّي أَسْمَعُكُمْ وَأَطْوَعُكُمْ لِمنْ وَلَّيْتُمُوهُ أَمْرَكُمْ، وَأَنَا لَكُمْ وَزِيراً، خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ مِنِّي أَمِيراً!

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand, nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a VAZIER (counsellor) than as Ameer (chief).  - Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha

Can someone who is Divinely appointed to a position have an option to delegate that Divine appointment it someone else?

Can a person who is Divinely appointed to a position willing serve under a person who is selected by the people, and advise them to do so?

If, you say “YES” grudgingly to the above (and making excuses for this) you’re implicitly agreeing that this Divine appointment is not taken seriously.

Wasalaam

Brother…

How you can actually believe that the Prophet stopped more than 100,000 muslims in the middle of the desert just to say that “whoever I am his ‘friend’, Ali is also his ‘friend’”?

One has to be crazy to believe that? And now you tel me about aql?

Forget our differences, you can’t really believe that the prophet stopped all these Muslims on some of the hottest days while everyone is tired and returning from Hajj just to say Ali should be everyone’s friend or whatever definition you guys give it lol.

Come on, your argument is completely illogical and bidah (innovation).

Please use your intellect.

Edited by FollowerofIslam
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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Meaning of words are always determined by the context of speech they appear in not just by quoting random verses.

I seriously don't know where is aql of AhleSunnah :mod:

He was quoting various verses which had a whole different context and expects the same context at Ghadeer? LOL

 

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3 hours ago, Guest Jhon said:

Why use riwayah AND then use aql???

why not just use the Quran as well as your aql…….nowhere will you find chosen ahlubaith.

12 KALIPHS all from QURAISH.

NOT 12 imams from ahlubaith.

I think aql isn’t in the equation for you especially when trying to twist hadiths to suit your agenda. 
 

so simple but too much for your aql I suppose.

To be honest this shouldn't even be discussed. As a Shia the hadith holds no validity.

Jaber bin Samara was an ummayad supporter, the other 2 chains which are more problematic mention Abu Bakar. 

Even if the Jaber Samara chain is accepted. The hadith talks about 12 leaders who are from Quraish. Nothing to do with who they are, good/bad, or chosen by Allah.

Third all the differences among Shia regarding the Imam and no one mentions this hadith untill Sheikh Sadooq.

 

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17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

If i were to quote a hadeeth from your books, proving something against Sahaba, you'll yell at me for one of these reasons:

1. Weak or Fabricated Chain

2. Misquoting Hadeeth

3. Absence of Chain

That’s the real problem here.  Shias claim very enthusiastically that Nahjul Balagha is a great book, full of quotes and letters from Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) and appropriately named Peak of Eloquence.

Anytime one quotes anything from Shia hadith books which goes against the Shia creed, the first line of defence is to attack it with eyes deliberately closed saying:

Quote

Weak or Fabricated Chain 2. Misquoting Hadeeth 3. Absence of Chain

Brother, it’s the job of your scholars, who collect so much Khums, to sit down together and for once and all go through whole of Shia hadith literature and grade the hadith as Saheeh, Hasan, Daif, Mawdu.

Shia scholars should follow the standards set by the Sunnis scholars who have painstakingly gone through the Hadith literature and are still doing it to verify hadith and grade them accordingly.  And this grading is written below the hadith so the people can know it’s status.

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

When you quote Nahaj ul-balagha, why you people never ever bring chain to sermon at least? 

Now, you want us to the job of your scholars???  Ask them, they are paid Khums for it, isn’t this so?

Also, Shia brothers here always quote Sermon of Shaqshaqiyah as a valid proof of Hazrat Ali ibn Abu Talib’s (may Allah be pleased with him) Imamate – I have yet to see them give any evidence of its authenticity.  Why ask us!!???!!

Interesting debate of the authenticity of Sermon of Shaqshaqiyah here on Shiachat – some familiar names in the debate.  Recognise them?????

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235046986-authenticity-of-shaqshaqiyah-or-sermon-3/

Now, you have some 12er Shia scholar who vouch for the authenticity of Nahjul Balagha.

The Authenticity of Nahj al-Balagha - Ayatullah Dr Sayyid Fadhel Milani

http://balaghah.net/old/nahj-htm/eng/id/article/57.htm

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) spent his life advising people but no one ever said he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did a job for kuffar. He was kind with them and used to help them, advise them for betterment of their life in this world and hereafter.

All above is true. He (peace and blessings be upon him) did all that but never ever compromised on his principles. No matter what was done to him and his very very dear family (may Allah be pleased with them all) NEVER! He never conceded to Mushrikeens pressure.  Heroically bore the hardship with his family in She’eb Abi Talib.

Also, look at the example of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), when Abu Talib under immense pressure from the Mushrikeens, requested the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to ease off degrading gods of Mushrikeen.

O my uncle! Know that even if they give the sun to my right hand and the moon to my left hand (that is, whatever they promise) I will never abandon this religion nor stop communicating it to people. Either Allah Almighty spreads this religion over the world and my duty is completed, or I will sacrifice my life on this path.”

Did the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) become advisor of his adversaries?  Did he socialise with them?

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Where did Imam Ali (عليه السلام) delegate Imamah to anyone in this sermon? You are just making up or probably assuming things.

“It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a VAZIER (counsellor) than as Ameer (chief).”

Isn’t he willing to pass on the leadership of the Ummah to someone else and “listen and obey him”??????
Your claim is that he kept the Imamate and opted to serve under the new leader selected by the people.  Was that his mission?  Why compromise?  The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never did compromise with his Divine given status.

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

The matn itself is crystal clear that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) never delegated Imamah to anyone rather told people to seek someone else because according to him they will have a hard time keeping up with him (عليه السلام) as a leader.

Now you are splitting hair. So, he kept the Imamah and gave away the leadership?????? 

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Therefore Imam (عليه السلام) just said to take him as a advisor rather than a leader. This isn't delegation. For God's sake, stop misquoting hadiths.

So, he proposed to relinquish the leadership and opt for adviser ship? So, this was done of Divine instructions or his own will?

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9 hours ago, FollowerofIslam said:

Brother…

How you can actually believe that the Prophet stopped more than 100,000 muslims in the middle of the desert just to say that “whoever I am his ‘friend’, Ali is also his ‘friend’”?

One has to be crazy to believe that? And now you tel me about aql?

Forget our differences, you can’t really believe that the prophet stopped all these Muslims on some of the hottest days while everyone is tired and returning from Hajj just to say Ali should be everyone’s friend or whatever definition you guys give it lol.

Come on, your argument is completely illogical and bidah (innovation).

Please use your intellect.

Brother, you must get your facts right!  The main and important Sermon was said at the Mount Arafaat.  The total attendance was around 100,000 to 125,000.

At Ghadir Khumm there were around 30,000 to 40,000 people not you as exaggerate it to be. 

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) then delivered a sermon, in which he gave Muslims the news of his imminent death.  He advised the Muslims as follows

Sunni version

“I am going to leave with you two heavy burdens. The first of them is the Book of Allah: in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it.” Then he (the Prophet) prompted and induced the Muslims to adhere to the Book of God. Then he said: “And my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household.” Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmad

Shia version

“The Prophet replied: “One of them is the Book of Allah and the other one is my select progeny (Itrat), that is family (Ahlul-Bayt). Beware of how you behave (with) them when I am gone from amongst you, for Allah, the Merciful, has informed me that these two (i.e., Quran and Ahlul-Bayt) shall never separate from each other until they reach me in Heaven at the Pool (of al-Kawthar). I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. Once more! I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. References:- A’alam al-Wara, pp 132-133

Also, he established Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib’s high status among the Muslims, which Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib recognised himself.

Quote

“I am better for you as a VAZIER (counsellor) than as Ameer (chief).”

“Please use your intellect. Use your intellect. Use your intellect. Please use your intellect.”

You sound like a broken record – a pin stuck in the same grove.

It must be news to you, but trust me, there are many other people of intellect, who do use the gift of intellect bestowed upon them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Please don’t delude yourself by assuming that intellect is in short supply and that you have monopoly of it.

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On 8/25/2021 at 10:06 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

No one ever had access to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and even in this day, we don' have access to Allah yet we all receive guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) same is the case for 12th Imam. It is in hadiths that he helps and guides people just like warmth of sun reaches people even in a cloudy day.

Now if you say like tunni defense that these are all lames excuses and practically 12th imam isn't guiding us, then same applies to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). According to this logic, practically even Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) isn't guiding anyone since we dont have access to him today while this goes against Quran Surah lail where Allah said guidance is upon him. (his duty to guide people)

You cannot guide whoever you please: it is God who guides whom He will. He best knows those who would accept guidance 56 Surah Al-Qasas -

And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive. 45 Al Baqarah

On 8/25/2021 at 10:06 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

neither do we have Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)'s whatsapp number

We don't need the WhatsApp number- Direct connection is free and no hidden charges. Get on your knees and raise your hands humbly and ask for what you need.  He HEARS!
And He is the Hearing, the Knowing. Try it.

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15 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Brother, you must get your facts right!  The main and important Sermon was said at the Mount Arafaat.  The total attendance was around 100,000 to 125,000.

At Ghadir Khumm there were around 30,000 to 40,000 people not you as exaggerate it to be. 

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) then delivered a sermon, in which he gave Muslims the news of his imminent death.  He advised the Muslims as follows

Sunni version

“I am going to leave with you two heavy burdens. The first of them is the Book of Allah: in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it.” Then he (the Prophet) prompted and induced the Muslims to adhere to the Book of God. Then he said: “And my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household.” Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmad

Shia version

“The Prophet replied: “One of them is the Book of Allah and the other one is my select progeny (Itrat), that is family (Ahlul-Bayt). Beware of how you behave (with) them when I am gone from amongst you, for Allah, the Merciful, has informed me that these two (i.e., Quran and Ahlul-Bayt) shall never separate from each other until they reach me in Heaven at the Pool (of al-Kawthar). I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. Once more! I remind you, in the name of Allah, about my Ahlul-Bayt. References:- A’alam al-Wara, pp 132-133

Also, he established Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib’s high status among the Muslims, which Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib recognised himself.

“Please use your intellect. Use your intellect. Use your intellect. Please use your intellect.”

You sound like a broken record – a pin stuck in the same grove.

It must be news to you, but trust me, there are many other people of intellect, who do use the gift of intellect bestowed upon them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Please don’t delude yourself by assuming that intellect is in short supply and that you have monopoly of it.

So according to your Sunni version of Ghadir, the Prophet said to hold onto his household?

Okay so why did Sunnis follow the caliphs instead of his household. He didn’t say hold onto his companions, or Abu Bakr, or Omar. He SAID HOLD ONTO HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Omar ibn AlKhattab appointed Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan as governor of Syria. This is the same Muawiyah who was kicked out of Medina by the Prophet and is the same Muawiyah who started the cursing of Ali ibn Abi Talib.

So don’t tell me different. There are 2 sides which split on that day, those people who did not follow Ali and those dear companions who followed Ali and did not pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr.

NOW ONCE AGAIN,

Tell me of just one messenger or prophet of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) whose successor was appointed as an election or by people who 25 years ago were burying their daughters alive?

JUST NAME ME ONE PROPHET?

YOU CANT!

Not a single prophets successor was chosen by an election or people EVER before Muhammad. So don’t come here and tell me that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had to be downgraded and his successor to be appointed by people.

Your arguments are all illogical and have no use of aql. You keep quoting Hadith but here you are, failing to understand a single logical concept which a 5th grader would say is common sense.

Your sect keep saying the leadership was an election but there was no ELECTION COMMISSION. Omar was handed the caliphate, no questions asked. Your sect is flawed and filled with Bidah.

 

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36 minutes ago, FollowerofIslam said:

So according to your Sunni version of Ghadir, the Prophet said to hold onto his household?

I hope you read well.

1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

Then he said: “And my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household. I remind you of Allah in matters relating to my household.” 

Sunni version of Household (may Allah be pleased with all)

 

36 minutes ago, FollowerofIslam said:

Your arguments are all illogical and have no use of aql. You keep quoting Hadith but here you are, failing to understand a single logical concept which a 5th grader would say is common sense.

:)

 

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3 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Take my advice on this. :)

Brother…..

I posted these logical statements for those which have a weak foundation of Islam regarding this issue and are maybe trying to find the truth, for them to question themselves and maybe go hey, this doesn’t make sense.

I may be wrong.

But truly ask yourself, if not a single messenger or prophets successor was chosen by people, why in the world would the last prophet of Islam leave the ummah without appointing a successor. The SAME ummah which had been burying their daughters 25 years earlier.

I am not here to insult you brother, this a complete logical claim and the Sunni faith believe in the exact opposite of this which makes no total sense, respectively.

I don’t need to go to these other Sunni website and post this because there is no need, you guys believe it was an election for the people and I made these statements saying that it makes no logical sense. Let them rip it to smithereens lol, at the end of the day I’m looking for the truth. Did the prophet not say, the truth is with Ali and Ali is with the truth? That’s in your books. He didn’t say the truth is with Abu Bakr and Abu Bakr is with the truth. Yet we find the Sunni faith admiring Abu Bakr an insane amount more than Ali. There is so much stuff which don’t make sense in the Sunni faith.

If God created Islam and our aql, there should be no conflicts between the two. Yet there is so much in Sunni Islam, an INSANE amount.

I am here to learn and post my thoughts and research and hopefully it may bring a person closer to the path of Ahlulbayt.

When was the last time you went to a Sunni Friday khutbah and heard anything about the Ahlulbayt? If so, very little. Things are not clicking here?

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3 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Sunni version of Household (may Allah be pleased with all)

Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Hadith 5920.

”His Ahlulbayt are those who can not accept zakat”

Meaning Fatima, Ali, Hassan, and Hussein, etc.

Sunni version is not even in correlation with your OWN ahadith?

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