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Istighatha and Tawassul

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Assalamu Alaykum everyone, recently I have been having problems comprehending the concept of Istighatha and invoking those saintly entities other than Allah. I have a few questions, 1. Are the imams (عليه السلام) available 24/7, as in, are they omnipresent and always hear the duaas we make to them? 2. If they can hear our duaas, then what if millions supplicate to them at once? Do they hear them all at the same time? 3. Is it not a contradiction that if the imams (عليه السلام) hear millions all at once? Owing to my limited understanding, I believe this is an attribute of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). That's all for now, Salam.

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إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ {5}

[Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
[Yusufali 1:5] Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.
[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,
[Yusufali 1:6] Show us the straight way,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
[Yusufali 1:7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

-----

You are commanded to do Practical "Tawassul" at minimum Five Times a Day. Read 1:7. There is no Direct path. Iblis tried to cut out the path and went direct. See is faith. 

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14 hours ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

1. Are the imams (عليه السلام) available 24/7, as in, are they omnipresent and always hear the duaas we make to them?

Is it "istighatha" or is it "tawassul" according to you? 

14 hours ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

2. If they can hear our duaas, then what if millions supplicate to them at once? Do they hear them all at the same time?

It appears that you are neither talking about istighatha nor tawassul. You are talking about dua. Dua is specific for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

14 hours ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

3. Is it not a contradiction that if the imams (عليه السلام) hear millions all at once?

Contradiction actually present in your questions. You are unable to distinguish between dua, istighatha & tawassul. 

Istighatha: Asking help from someone by keeping in mind that every help comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & He makes someone wasilah for helping you. None have the power to help us on their own except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Tawassul: Approaching Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "through" the ones who are close to Him and "through" the deeds which He likes.

Dua: You words when you address Him for asking something e.g., His mercy, grace, sustenance, shifa, forgiveness etc. 

Now with these definitions in mind, please reconstruct your questions and I will try to answer them Insha Allah.

Wassalam!!

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3 hours ago, Cool said:

Is it "istighatha" or is it "tawassul" according to you? 

It appears that you are neither talking about istighatha nor tawassul. You are talking about dua. Dua is specific for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

Contradiction actually present in your questions. You are unable to distinguish between dua, istighatha & tawassul. 

Istighatha: Asking help from someone by keeping in mind that every help comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & He makes someone wasilah for helping you. None have the power to help us on their own except Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Tawassul: Approaching Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "through" the ones who are close to Him and "through" the deeds which He likes.

Dua: You words when you address Him for asking something e.g., His mercy, grace, sustenance, shifa, forgiveness etc. 

Now with these definitions in mind, please reconstruct your questions and I will try to answer them Insha Allah.

Wassalam!!

My sincerest of apologies for coming off ambiguous with my query. My understanding of Tawassul would be this (feel free to correct me) "O Allah in the name of x, give me/help me with y" 
As for istighatha, I see it as calling upon the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or the imam (عليه السلام) directly for help without mentioning Allah, for e.g Ya Ali Madad. But just like how you said, they are powerless without the help of Allah.
And lastly when I mentioned dua, it was my obliviousness, pardon me, I meant our call for help towards them in the istighatha context for example Ya Ali Madad or Ya Imam Adhikrni. Do they Imams always hear "our call for help" and what if millions invoke them all at once from different regions around the world, are they able to suffice for them and if yes, is that not in contradiction of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attribute of omnipresence? 

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16 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ {5}

[Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[Pickthal 1:5] Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
[Yusufali 1:5] Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.
[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,
[Yusufali 1:6] Show us the straight way,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
[Yusufali 1:7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

-----

You are commanded to do Practical "Tawassul" at minimum Five Times a Day. Read 1:7. There is no Direct path. Iblis tried to cut out the path and went direct. See is faith. 

I’m convinced this is Asif Raza Alvi or one of his fanboys. Even now Al Fatiha is about supplicating to Ahlulbayt haha

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1 hour ago, 786:) said:

I’m convinced this is Asif Raza Alvi or one of his fanboys. Even now Al Fatiha is about supplicating to Ahlulbayt haha

Why not you just you suggest to all muslims to forget about Ahlulbayt and just go direct to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in every aspect of your life?

We are asked to hold on to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), and while we are holding on we supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

We all know Qur'an and Ahlulbayt are not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but just means.  Be with the means in worshipping or supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is part of holding on.  Our connections to Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are not cut off.  This is part of believe in unseen.

MUHAMMAD (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ali (عليه السلام) as our Maula mentioned in Ghadir, extend until hereafter.  It is unseen connection to all Muslims.  Where would that Maulaship takes us?

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On 8/13/2021 at 2:56 PM, Asad al-Munfatih said:

Assalamu Alaykum everyone, recently I have been having problems comprehending the concept of Istighatha and invoking those saintly entities other than Allah. I have a few questions, 1. Are the imams (عليه السلام) available 24/7, as in, are they omnipresent and always hear the duaas we make to them? 2. If they can hear our duaas, then what if millions supplicate to them at once? Do they hear them all at the same time? 3. Is it not a contradiction that if the imams (عليه السلام) hear millions all at once? Owing to my limited understanding, I believe this is an attribute of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). That's all for now, Salam.

Why do Muslims believe in an omnipresent Iblees. He can mislead billions at the same time, no?

And what about the omnipresent Angel of Death?

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19 hours ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

And lastly when I mentioned dua, it was my obliviousness, pardon me, I meant our call for help towards them in the istighatha context for example Ya Ali Madad or Ya Imam Adhikrni. Do they Imams always hear "our call for help" and what if millions invoke them all at once from different regions around the world, are they able to suffice for them and if yes, is that not in contradiction of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attribute of omnipresence? 

Salam,

Brother, We first need to know what is "Imam" according to us and what are the attributes of Imam mentioned in Quran.

Lets see the problem of omnipresence first. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made the Imams witness over people according to this hadith:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن إبراهيم بن عمر اليماني، عن سليم بن قيس الهلالي، عن أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه قال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى طهرنا وعصمنا وجعلنا شهداء على خلقه، وحجته في أرضه، و جعلنا مع القرآن وجعل القرآن معنا، لا نفارقه ولا يفارقنا.

And according to this verse:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

22:78 

So how can Imam be a witness for billions of people on Earth? He need to be omnipresent for becoming a witness over people. Now bear in mind that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has appointed them in this capacity (i.e., witness over people). 

Being witness over every human would means that if someone or billions of people on earth, at the same time, say "Ya Imam Adrikni", this saying is an act, a deed, and it must be witnessed by Imam according to the above quoted hadith & verse. So I think I have addressed one of your problem (i.e., whether Imam can hear your call or not)

Now the following part:

19 hours ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

are they able to suffice for them and if yes, is that not in contradiction of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attribute of omnipresence? 

Again, you need to look at the basics first. What is Imam? And Whom does Imam represent as well as who has appointed him as Imam? 

Even incase you deed,.for instance, calling for their help, is witnessed by Imam (عليه السلام), he can only help you if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills so. The Imam (عليه السلام) is the one who has surrendered his will to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and he does only that which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills. 

وَمَا تَشَاؤُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاء اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا يُدْخِلُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ فِي رَحْمَتِهِ ۚ وَالظَّالِمِينَ أَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا

76:30-31

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the bearers of divine mercy and grace according to our belief. And they act only according to the divine will. 

Lastly, I would like to stress on one point i.e., our belief in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) remain incomplete unless we accept and obey every commands of Messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And that includes his command delivered at Ghadir e Khum about the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

Accepting him as Imam, would mean that one is putting his trust solely on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Who alone is suffice for all of His creation. This is the true "tawakkal" upon Him. 

I hope that I am clear. 

Wassalam!

 

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JazakAllahu khayran dear brother, you have cleared a lot of misconceptions that were fading my reasoning :) but last but not least, how limited is the attribute of omnipresence of the imams (عليه السلام)? because there is simply no chance that their omnipresence is at par with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). so, is it appropriate to say things like, may Mawla (عليه السلام) protect you?

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7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Why do Muslims believe in an omnipresent Iblees. He can mislead billions at the same time, no?

And what about the omnipresent Angel of Death?

this is a good argument 

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1 hour ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

JazakAllahu khayran dear brother, you have cleared a lot of misconceptions that were fading my reasoning :) but last but not least, how limited is the attribute of omnipresence of the imams (عليه السلام)? because there is simply no chance that their omnipresence is at par with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). so, is it appropriate to say things like, may Mawla (عليه السلام) protect you?

It's as limited as Allah has allowed it to be.

Yes it is okay. Allah has told us to tawassul so lets do tawassul. Had Allah prescribed limits on tawassul then we would do limited tawassul.

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1 hour ago, Asad al-Munfatih said:

how limited is the attribute of omnipresence of the imams (عليه السلام)?

The attribute of omnipresent belongs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) solely. Like He owns the wilayah, He alone is the True Mowla of believers. And when that Mowla says:

انما وليكم الله و رسوله والذين امنوا

We accept His words & commands with heart & soul. When that True Mowla commands us:

اطيعوا الله و رسوله و اولي الامر منكم

We accept & obey Him by obeying the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ulil Amr.

So obedience & wilayah both solely belongs to Him. He it is, who has made it obligatory on us to obey the Prophet & Ulil Amr. He it is who has made for us wilayah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).

Similarly, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Shahid. The Shahood belongs to Him absolutely. And when He is making someone witness over creation and His proof over creation, what else we have except to accept His words & commands. As per a verse of Quran, it is said that our deeds are being presented before Imams & Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

وَقُلِ اعْمَلُواْ فَسَيَرَى اللّهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَسَتُرَدُّونَ إِلَى عَالِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

9:105 

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12 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

It's as limited as Allah has allowed it to be.

Yes it is okay. Allah has told us to tawassul so lets do tawassul. Had Allah prescribed limits on tawassul then we would do limited tawassul.

Do we have any authentic hadiths from our books where the Imams (عليه السلام) ask us to invoke them for help or protection (after their death from this world)

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12 hours ago, Cool said:

The attribute of omnipresent belongs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) solely.

 

Agreed, but the imams (عليه السلام), who have authority over every atom in the universe and hear our invocations do need some weaker attributes of omnipresence then or else how do they even hear us? One of the ulema that i asked about said that whenever we call the imams (عليه السلام) or the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for help, then an angel forwards our request to them (عليه السلام) and they (عليه السلام) in turn, pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the needful. This seems like an okayish explanation but it wasnt backed by the Qur'an or the sunnah so idk how reliable this perspective is

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On 8/15/2021 at 11:25 PM, Asad al-Munfatih said:

Do we have any authentic hadiths from our books where the Imams (عليه السلام) ask us to invoke them for help or protection (after their death from this world)

Dua Tawassul is in bihar al-anwar by Allama Majlisi

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On 8/15/2021 at 11:30 PM, Asad al-Munfatih said:

Agreed, but the imams (عليه السلام), who have authority over every atom in the universe and hear our invocations do need some weaker attributes of omnipresence then or else how do they even hear us?

Salam, 

What has been said by me in my previous comment was just to show you that the hierarchy in this system is vertical and not horizontal. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Absolute Wali, Absolute Obedience belongs to Him, Omnipresence solely belongs to Him. So that should be kept in mind while discussing these sort of things. 

Now when He appoints someone as wali and make their obedience obligatory on us and make them witness and proof over His creation, that doesn't make these personalities independent of Him rather these personalities always remain in need of Him. 

On 8/15/2021 at 11:30 PM, Asad al-Munfatih said:

then an angel forwards our request to them (عليه السلام) and they (عليه السلام) in turn, pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the needful.

Yes perhaps that may be the case.

You must know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doesn't need anything, not even the angels to carryout the duties He assigned to them. His omnipresence is not dependent on anything.

The personalities we are talking about, are in need of means. This alone is the main difference. Our deeds are presented to Imam of time  (عليه السلام) & to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) day & night as mentioned in several ahadith in our books.

Wassalam!!

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Guest Psychological Warfare

fyi

Quote

Imam Mahdi (aj) says,

"Surely, we do not neglect your condition nor are we forgetful of your remembrance. Had it not been so, then, terrible calamities would have struck you and your enemies would have destroyed you."2

In order to streamline the discussion(s), We need to agree on the baseline or fundamental issues. Recognize the main issue or concern. 

Any one who believes in the Imam of the Time,  The living Imam Al- Mahdi(عليه السلام). Will not ask questions relating to they are dead so how do they .hear/see etc..........

So, the questioner is Not an Imami Shia who believes in the Living Imam of the Time. 

There are people who believe in Jurists/political leaders / self appointed leaders as "imams" or consider  Sayyed to be Ahlul Bayth  so they may not comprehend what Waseela/Tawassul means. 

So we can have 15 pages of discussion, s/he will not get it. In their mind, some dude we appointed can do all that...the y will not believe and rightly so. 

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On 8/16/2021 at 9:30 AM, Asad al-Munfatih said:

One of the ulema that i asked about said that whenever we call the imams (عليه السلام) or the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for help, then an angel forwards our request to them (عليه السلام) and they (عليه السلام) in turn, pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the needful. This seems like an okayish explanation but it wasnt backed by the Qur'an or the sunnah so idk how reliable this perspective is

What is backed by Quran is already shared with you brother. There is a chapter in Al-Kafi which contains several ahadith supporting that the deeds are presented to Prophet s a.w & Imam of time.

"Istightha" is a call for help to anyone other than God who is alive (and again keep in mind that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the ultimate source of any help). 

Now if anyone consider Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Imams as dead, he is ignoring the verses of quran which prohibits to "say" and "consider" the ones who killed or died in the way of Allah as dead. It is He who has informed that they are alive and taking their sustenance. 

So the istighatha to those who are alive عند الله and are taking sustenance from Him, is not against the concept of towheed.

In fact this istighatha itself is a proof that the person doing istighatha, is neither "saying" (و لا تقولو) nor "considering" ( ولا تحسبن) those personalities as dead. He, at least have yaqeen on their lives which God has mentioned in Quran:

وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتًا بَلْ أَحْيَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

3:169 

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا أَوْ مَاتُوا لَيَرْزُقَنَّهُمُ اللَّهُ رِزْقًا حَسَنًا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُوَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

22:58

 

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On 8/17/2021 at 12:25 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

Dua Tawassul is in bihar al-anwar by Allama Majlisi

I think Dua E Tawassul doesnot have asnaad that it was taught by any Imam (عليه السلام) 

On 8/14/2021 at 9:27 AM, Asad al-Munfatih said:

My sincerest of apologies for coming off ambiguous with my query. My understanding of Tawassul would be this (feel free to correct me) "O Allah in the name of x, give me/help me with y" 
As for istighatha, I see it as calling upon the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or the imam (عليه السلام) directly for help without mentioning Allah, for e.g Ya Ali Madad. But just like how you said, they are powerless without the help of Allah.
And lastly when I mentioned dua, it was my obliviousness, pardon me, I meant our call for help towards them in the istighatha context for example Ya Ali Madad or Ya Imam Adhikrni. Do they Imams always hear "our call for help" and what if millions invoke them all at once from different regions around the world, are they able to suffice for them and if yes, is that not in contradiction of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attribute of omnipresence? 

May I add some specific wordings/Dua/isteghasas that have confused me as well? 

My apolozies if anyone doesn't understand urdu 

-" Abbas katey hathon ka ezaj dikha do, din mere badal do meri taqdeer saja do" (O Abbas show the miracle of severed hands and change my fate) 

-Ya kashif al Karb anwajhil Hussain 

Ikshif karbi behaq e Akhi Hussain (O Abbas reliever of distress from the face of Hussain, Remove my distress for the sake of your Brother Hussain)

-offer 2 rakaat namaz for Hajaat and after the final sajda, do a sajda for BiBi Zahra and invoke her directly.. Ya Zahra grant me such and such recited x-number times (usually 100 times).. 

-Bibi Salamat rakhein (Bibi Zahra (عليه السلام). keep you safe/grant you long life) 

-Bibi aapko xyz Ata fermain, tamam amaal qabool karein haajat ko pura karein etc etc..(May Zahra (عليه السلام). grant your xyz wish, accept your deeds and fulfill your wishes etc etc) 

-lighting candals and beseeching Janab e Ume Kulsoom for the marriage of girls.. (Ya sayedati Ya Maulai, Ya Umme Kalsoom, Aaghisni) a proper ritual is done to hasten the marriage proposals for unwed girls. 

Just today I was asked to say my Dua in the ears of Shabih e Zuljinah and it will be instantly granted.. 

Earlier I was told to ask Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). to grant me a daughter behaq e Sakina (عليه السلام). and He will surely grant me one. (So that means I should direct my prayers towards Imam Hussain, believing He will grant me a daughter for the sake of His daughter, not towards Allah Who will grant me one for the sake of Hussain (عليه السلام). and His beloved daughter). 

This is becoming a rapidly increasing trend at least in the circles I move in.. 

1 know there is 1 verse in the Quran that is used as a daleel to do tawassul, but do we ignore that many that say not to call upon anyone else but Allah for your needs.. 

As per my very limited understanding, I thought tawassul was needed in an "attempt" to recognize Allah in our limited capacity,

that it was to bring you close to Allah, so you may understand what your Lord of capable of and to beseech Him day and night.. 

To me, sometimes it seems that by doing the kind of Tawassul as stated, it feels like we don't even need Allah anymore.. we are forgetting to take even the name of Allah, whether for our basic needs or for our higher purposes and ignoring the verses 

يسله من فى السموات والارض.. 

(Everything the in skies/heavnes and Earth call upon him (for their needs)).. 

Surely Allah grants our wishes in the sadqa of His Beloved Individuals, but are we not to even ask Him directly for it?, bypass Allah entirely and go directly to those whose Waseela is needed for the fulfillment of our duas.?

Is Tauheed = 1+ 14 

Or nowadays 1 + 14 + prominent presonalities of Karbala

Also, its off topic but somewhat related, can anyone help me understand the extent of Tazeem and worship, exactly what constitutes as worship, what is the boundry between Tazeem/tawassul/worship.. 

Is Namaz the only form cosidered worship and rest falls under Tazeem/respect?

(Like sujood, ruku etc done in respect for "Shabih" of such and such or for the name ofA'imah). If that is the case, then Hindu's use the same argument that they don't consider the idols to be Gods but rather a representation/Shabih of God and that they "pay their respect" to them and it is actually meant for the Supreme 1 God..

Every year houses are decorated with items (Alam, miniatures of cradle, horse, caskets) that were "meant to help us recall the tragedy of Karbala, mere repsentations of the facts" but venerated so much so that to outsiders it feels like worship, bowing down to it, kissing, rubbing our hands over the articles and running the hands over our face as if to transfer something (probably noor) from the artifact, standing in front of them for prayers so to an outsiders it seems the prayers are directed to the relics (I honestly don't know what people say in the prayers, may be it really is directed towards Allah but seems otherwise) and they say they are paying their respects to the artifacts because they represent the A'imah (عليه السلام). ...

Recently I see items of food (usually sweets, fruits, but sometimes whatever is cooked) placed under the miniature Alams for "blessing" it, then the "blessed" food or water becomes sacred, thought to be a cure for any illness(shifa) and to be consumed as sacred meal that heals the soul and body, it seems that the food is an offering to the A'imah who bless it by consuming it or accepting it and thus making it pure/shifa..

Honestly have not dared to ask anyone what they actually believe happens to the food, its just my speculation, because someone once mentioned it reaches the A'imah  or had been handled by them or something along the lines.

All this is done religiously in the name of Tawassul. 

How is our deed different from those who beseech various dieties for various purposes?

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2 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

I think Dua E Tawassul doesnot have asnaad that it was taught by any Imam (عليه السلام) 

 

May I add some specific wordings/Dua/isteghasas that have confused me as well? 

My apolozies if anyone doesn't understand urdu 

-" Abbas katey hathon ka ezaj dikha do, din mere badal do meri taqdeer saja do" (O Abbas show the miracle of severed hands and change my fate) 

-Ya kashif al Karb anwajhil Hussain 

Ikshif karbi behaq e Akhi Hussain (O Abbas reliever of distress from the face of Hussain, Remove my distress for the sake of your Brother Hussain)

-offer 2 rakaat namaz for Hajaat and after the final sajda, do a sajda for BiBi Zahra and invoke her directly.. Ya Zahra grant me such and such recited x-number times (usually 100 times).. 

-Bibi Salamat rakhein (Bibi Zahra (عليه السلام). keep you safe/grant you long life) 

-Bibi aapko xyz Ata fermain, tamam amaal qabool karein haajat ko pura karein etc etc..(May Zahra (عليه السلام). grant your xyz wish, accept your deeds and fulfill your wishes etc etc) 

-lighting candals and beseeching Janab e Ume Kulsoom for the marriage of girls.. (Ya sayedati Ya Maulai, Ya Umme Kalsoom, Aaghisni) a proper ritual is done to hasten the marriage proposals for unwed girls. 

Just today I was asked to say my Dua in the ears of Shabih e Zuljinah and it will be instantly granted.. 

Earlier I was told to ask Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). to grant me a daughter behaq e Sakina (عليه السلام). and He will surely grant me one. (So that means I should direct my prayers towards Imam Hussain, believing He will grant me a daughter for the sake of His daughter, not towards Allah Who will grant me one for the sake of Hussain (عليه السلام). and His beloved daughter). 

This is becoming a rapidly increasing trend at least in the circles I move in.. 

1 know there is 1 verse in the Quran that is used as a daleel to do tawassul, but do we ignore that many that say not to call upon anyone else but Allah for your needs.. 

As per my very limited understanding, I thought tawassul was needed in an "attempt" to recognize Allah in our limited capacity,

that it was to bring you close to Allah, so you may understand what your Lord of capable of and to beseech Him day and night.. 

To me, sometimes it seems that by doing the kind of Tawassul as stated, it feels like we don't even need Allah anymore.. we are forgetting to take even the name of Allah, whether for our basic needs or for our higher purposes and ignoring the verses 

يسله من فى السموات والارض.. 

(Everything the in skies/heavnes and Earth call upon him (for their needs)).. 

Surely Allah grants our wishes in the sadqa of His Beloved Individuals, but are we not to even ask Him directly for it?, bypass Allah entirely and go directly to those whose Waseela is needed for the fulfillment of our duas.?

Is Tauheed = 1+ 14 

Or nowadays 1 + 14 + prominent presonalities of Karbala

Also, its off topic but somewhat related, can anyone help me understand the extent of Tazeem and worship, exactly what constitutes as worship, what is the boundry between Tazeem/tawassul/worship.. 

Is Namaz the only form cosidered worship and rest falls under Tazeem/respect?

(Like sujood, ruku etc done in respect for "Shabih" of such and such or for the name ofA'imah). If that is the case, then Hindu's use the same argument that they don't consider the idols to be Gods but rather a representation/Shabih of God and that they "pay their respect" to them and it is actually meant for the Supreme 1 God..

Every year houses are decorated with items (Alam, miniatures of cradle, horse, caskets) that were "meant to help us recall the tragedy of Karbala, mere repsentations of the facts" but venerated so much so that to outsiders it feels like worship, bowing down to it, kissing, rubbing our hands over the articles and running the hands over our face as if to transfer something (probably noor) from the artifact, standing in front of them for prayers so to an outsiders it seems the prayers are directed to the relics (I honestly don't know what people say in the prayers, may be it really is directed towards Allah but seems otherwise) and they say they are paying their respects to the artifacts because they represent the A'imah (عليه السلام). ...

Recently I see items of food (usually sweets, fruits, but sometimes whatever is cooked) placed under the miniature Alams for "blessing" it, then the "blessed" food or water becomes sacred, thought to be a cure for any illness(shifa) and to be consumed as sacred meal that heals the soul and body, it seems that the food is an offering to the A'imah who bless it by consuming it or accepting it and thus making it pure/shifa..

Honestly have not dared to ask anyone what they actually believe happens to the food, its just my speculation, because someone once mentioned it reaches the A'imah  or had been handled by them or something along the lines.

All this is done religiously in the name of Tawassul. 

How is our deed different from those who beseech various dieties for various purposes? 

sure you are not @786:) in disguise :D

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3 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

sure you are not @786:) in disguise :D

Nope, just a shia by birth,  trying desperately to wrap my head around the beliefs I see around myself and to accept them if possible..  

I'm not even frequent in this forum. In fact this is my first post, so I don't know who 786 is. 

But if he is a sunni then it furthers my confusion, why have we gone to so much extreme that we won't even use 786 in our handle, or suspect those who do use it to be Sunnis because it represents Bismillah, that we should only use numbers that include 5, 12 ,14, 110.  

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4 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

My apolozies if anyone doesn't understand urdu 

-" Abbas katey hathon ka ezaj dikha do, din mere badal do meri taqdeer saja do" (O Abbas show the miracle of severed hands and change my fate) 

Poetry is neither istighatha nor tawassul.

4 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

As per my very limited understanding, I thought tawassul was needed in an "attempt" to recognize Allah in our limited capacity,

You think you need wasilah just to recognize God? 

Wasilah is a means of access to a thing or a being. Here is the Arabic text of that verse:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ

5:35) O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him 

You can see the verse is addressing to believers. Who are believers? Those who have not yet recognized Allah?

4 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

that it was to bring you close to Allah, so you may understand what your Lord of capable of and to beseech Him day and night.. 

You cannot get close to God until you get close to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ

48:10) Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands.

You can only come close to the one who is closer to God than two bows or even less:

فَكَانَ قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ أَوْ أَدْنَى

Remembering & obeying the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ulil Amr, is remembering & obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

4 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

but venerated so much so that to outsiders it feels like worship, bowing down to it, kissing, rubbing our hands over the articles and running the hands over our face as if to transfer something (probably noor)

All what you have written gives clear status of your ignorance. I don't know what would you call when you find in Quran verses like this:

اذْهَبُوا بِقَمِيصِي هَٰذَا فَأَلْقُوهُ عَلَىٰ وَجْهِ أَبِي يَأْتِ بَصِيرًا وَأْتُونِي بِأَهْلِكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ

12:93) Take this my shirt and cast it on my father's face, he will (again) be able to see, and come to me with all your families.

In the 96th verse of the same chapter, this is mentioned:

12:96) So when the bearer of good news came he cast it on his face, so forthwith he regained his sight. He said: Did I not say to you that I know from Allah what you do not know?

Does it feels like worship to you? 

For further details go through the article:

https://www.al-islam.org/quran-and-mourning-hussain-jafar-ali-asil/kissing-objects-places-associated-revered-persons

4 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

Tauheed = 1+ 14 

Or nowadays 1 + 14 + prominent presonalities of Karbala

A gross negligence!!! 

Of course I am not going to defend any wrong practices. But nazr & niaz are not something to criticize, nor the status of 14 infallibles and the martyrs of Karbala.

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا أَوْ مَاتُوا لَيَرْزُقَنَّهُمُ اللَّهُ رِزْقًا حَسَنًا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُوَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

22:58) And (as for) those who fly in Allah's way and are then slain or die, Allah will most certainly grant them a goodly sustenance, and most surely Allah is the best Giver of sustenance.

You must be surprised by these sort of verses that mentions people are getting "rizqan hasanan" even after their death. And now see this analogy:

ضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً عَبْدًا مَّمْلُوكًا لاَّ يَقْدِرُ عَلَى شَيْءٍ وَمَن رَّزَقْنَاهُ مِنَّا رِزْقًا حَسَنًا فَهُوَ يُنفِقُ مِنْهُ سِرًّا وَجَهْرًا هَلْ يَسْتَوُونَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ

16:75) Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah! Nay, most of them do not know.

So all praises are indeed for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

 

Edited by Cool
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4 hours ago, Guest Guest786 said:

think Dua E Tawassul doesnot have asnaad that it was taught by any Imam (عليه السلام) 

Well read Ziyar e Jamia, it has the most authentic chain and it will blow you off. 

https://www.duas.org/mobile/ziarat-jamia-masumeen.html

 

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2 hours ago, Guest Guest 786 said:

Nope, just a shia by birth,  trying desperately to wrap my head around the beliefs I see around myself and to accept them if possible..  

I'm not even frequent in this forum. In fact this is my first post, so I don't know who 786 is. 

But if he is a sunni then it furthers my confusion, why have we gone to so much extreme that we won't even use 786 in our handle, or suspect those who do use it to be Sunnis because it represents Bismillah, that we should only use numbers that include 5, 12 ,14, 110.  

Easy there. @786:) is a hard-core shia. Him and I just have different views on things.

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Quote

But if he is a sunni then it furthers my confusion, why have we gone to so much extreme that we won't even use 786 in our handle, or suspect those who do use it to be Sunnis because it represents Bismillah,

FYI, Read in its entirety so you don't miss the main point. Which should clarify your Conjecture for the people. If you don't have knowledge DO NOT Judge or formulate an opinion about Azadari...

Quote

Pickthal 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 1:1]

BISMILLAHIR-RAHMANIR-RAHIM, as the first verse, is the part and parcel of al Fatihah.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The Holy Prophet said:

LA SALATA ILLA BIFATIHATUL KITAB WA BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM MIN AYATIHA

There is no prayer (salat) without al Fatihah, and bismillahir rahmanir rahim is one of its verses. The Ahl ul Bayt (the thoroughly purified members of the family of the Holy Prophet), and the scholars, who follow their teachings, time and again, had verified this saying of the Holy Prophet. So according to Muhammad and ali Muhammad bismillahir rahmanir rahim is a verse by itself, which, if not recited as a part of al Fatihah, the prayer is rendered null and void. It is not only the component of al Fatihah but also of every surah except al Bara-at.

In the light of the clear decisions and evidences of the practical acts of the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, the arguments of the dissenting scholars carry no weight. According to the Holy Prophet and his divinely chosen Ahl ul Bayt bismillahir rahmanir rahim is the first of the seven verses of al Fatihah. And when Muhammad and ali Muhammad have said so, there remains no doubt whatsoever. Any opinion contrary to the verdict of Muhammad and ali Muhammad is pure conjecture.

Abu Hanifa, founder of the Hanafi school, gave permission to his followers to recite bismillahir rahmanir rahim quietly, with al Fatihah, in prayers, because the Holy Prophet used to recite al Fatihah with bismillahir rahmanir rahim in his prayers, yet in his (Abu Hanifa's) opinion it was not a part of the surah. (Tafsir Kabir - Abdul Hayy) There are some scholars who admit that al Fatihah consists of seven verses but to insist on their misconceived notion that bismillahir rahmanir rahim is not included in it they split the last verse into two separate verses, although the meaning and the construction of the verse does not justify it.

According to the Holy Prophet any deed begun without reciting bismillah goes bad and lacks effectiveness. As al salat is known as the best deed (khayrul amal) and al Fatihah is the inaugurator of the book it is logical that bismillahir rahmanir rahim is the first verse of al Fatihah.

Once a man offered prayers in presence of the Holy Prophet without saying bismillahir rahmanir rahim in his recitation of al Fatihah. The Holy Prophet told him:

You have rendered your prayer null and void by omitting bismillah from Fatihah. Do you not know that bismillah is the part of al Fatihah? (Durrul Manthur by Suyuti)

On one occasion, Mu-awiyah, while leading a prayer in Madina, recited al Fatihah without bismillah. At the end the participating pray-ers, made a hue and cry. To pacify the protestations he prayed the same prayer again and recited al Fatihah with bismillah. This event bears out the fact that those who saw and heard the Holy Prophet, prior to the influx of alterations, knew that if in any prayer al Fatihah is recited without bismillah, it is rendered null and void. (Fakhruddin Razi and Kanzul Ummal)

Bismillahir rahmanir rahim, in addition to al Fatihah, is also the part of al Naml:

Verily, it is from Sulayman; and it is 'In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful'. This is the beginning of the letter prophet Sulayman wrote to the queen of Shiba.

Whatever be the point of view of the dissenting scholars, it has been decisively established that the Holy Prophet always recited bismillahir rahmanir rahim as the part of al Fatihah, therefore, we all should follow him.

https://quran.al-islam.org/

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47 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Easy there. @786:) is a hard-core shia. Him and I just have different views on things.

I don’t identify as a hardcore Shia. I identify as a reformed Shia—hoping to extract the Tashayyu minus the ghuluw and bidah which are common these days. Hardcore Shia for me is someone who takes part in tatbir. I also have no idea who guest 786 is. I don’t need a burner account on here lol.

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32 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I don’t identify as a hardcore Shia. I identify as a reformed Shia—hoping to extract the Tashayyu minus the ghuluw and bidah which are common these days. Hardcore Shia for me is someone who takes part in tatbir. I also have no idea who guest 786 is. I don’t need a burner account on here lol.

How about a Puritan shia then?

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Guest Psychological Warfare

fyi

Quote

86- By the right of him whom Thou hast distinguished among Thy creation
and by him whom Thou hast chosen
for Thyself!
By the right of him whom Thou hast selected
from among Thy creatures
and by him whom Thou hast picked
for Thy task!
By the right of him the obeying of whom Thou hast joined to obeying Thee,
and by him the disobeying of whom Thou hast made like disobeying Thee!
And by the right of him whose friendship Thou hast bound to Thy friendship
and by him whose enmity Thou hast linked
to Thine enmity!
Shield me in this day of mine,
by that through which Thou shieldest
him who prays fervently to Thee while disavowing
and him who seeks refuge in Thy forgiveness
while repenting!

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-al-sajjadiyya-imam-ali-zayn-al-abidin/47-his-supplication-day-arafa

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On 8/18/2021 at 12:31 AM, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

There is nothing wrong with that kind of dua. Everyone accept the permissibility to do such a dua, even salafis do it. That dua is actually a proof that it was a common dua form the imams (عليه السلام) always did, by only invoking Allah in every wordings without going to call other in the dua. Saying by the right of Muhammad (saws) is not calling prophet Muhammed in dua.

Invoking to God alone is His right, because Dua is form of worship and Imam zayn al abidin (عليه السلام) said 

The greatest right of God against you is that you worship Him without associating anything with Him.

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 8/17/2021 at 1:14 PM, Cool said:

What is backed by Quran is already shared with you brother. There is a chapter in Al-Kafi which contains several ahadith supporting that the deeds are presented to Prophet s a.w & Imam of time.

"Istightha" is a call for help to anyone other than God who is alive (and again keep in mind that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the ultimate source of any help). 

Now if anyone consider Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Imams as dead, he is ignoring the verses of quran which prohibits to "say" and "consider" the ones who killed or died in the way of Allah as dead. It is He who has informed that they are alive and taking their sustenance. 

So the istighatha to those who are alive عند الله and are taking sustenance from Him, is not against the concept of towheed.

In fact this istighatha itself is a proof that the person doing istighatha, is neither "saying" (و لا تقولو) nor "considering" ( ولا تحسبن) those personalities as dead. He, at least have yaqeen on their lives which God has mentioned in Quran:

وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتًا بَلْ أَحْيَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

3:169 

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا أَوْ مَاتُوا لَيَرْزُقَنَّهُمُ اللَّهُ رِزْقًا حَسَنًا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُوَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

22:58

 

jazakallah, thank you for clarifying this issue dear brother, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give you freshness

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