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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunni Rational Proofs For seeing Allah

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uar786

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The two rational proofs the sunnis use to prove that Allah can be seen are :

 

1.) Everything that exists can be seen . Allah exists . Therefore Allah can be seen 

 

2.)  If it was impossible for Allah ﷻ to be seen than Sayyiduna Musa would not have asked for it; as we know explicitly in the Quran

The Prophets are the most knowledgeable of people about Allah ﷻ and the most intelligent of creation

For them to ask for something that is intellectually impossible does not befit their high rank

 

7: 143  Quran       And as soon as Musa came to Our fixed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "Lord! Show me, that I may look at You!" Said He, "You will never see Me; but look at the mountain, so, in case it stays residing in its place, then you will eventually see Me." Then as soon as his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, He made it pounded (into dust), and Musa collapsed stunned. So, as soon as he recovered, he said, All Extolment be to You! I repent to You, and I am the first of the believers.".

 

How would shias answer these 2 points 

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On 8/12/2021 at 10:32 AM, uar786 said:

1.) Everything that exists can be seen . Allah exists . Therefore Allah can be seen 

Ever seen electricity?

 

On 8/12/2021 at 10:32 AM, uar786 said:

 2.)  If it was impossible for Allah ﷻ to be seen than Sayyiduna Musa would not have asked for it; as we know explicitly in the Quran

The Prophets are the most knowledgeable of people about Allah ﷻ and the most intelligent of creation

For them to ask for something that is intellectually impossible does not befit their high rank

Actually, intelligent and intellectual people ask the most questions and are most curious.

So out of curiously, if Allah can be seen, what will that mean? Are the acceptance of Shia or sunni Islam dependent of Allah's visibility?

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On 8/13/2021 at 1:32 AM, uar786 said:

1.) Everything that exists can be seen . Allah exists . Therefore Allah can be seen 

Only limited things can be seen, limited things have a particular size, shape, and they can be differentiated from other things. Allah who is unlimited and infinite is free from shape, colour, size—He is indistinguishable.

In philosophy, one of the proofs of God (the contingency argument by Ibn Sina) divide existents into two categories, a possible existence, and a Necessary Existence (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)). All possible existents are possible because they have a particular conceptualisation, or they are dependent on their characteristics which could be a different way, the Necessary Existence is free from this or that concept, independent of all things.

On 8/13/2021 at 1:32 AM, uar786 said:

7: 143  Quran       And as soon as Musa came to Our fixed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "Lord! Show me, that I may look at You!" Said He, "You will never see Me; but look at the mountain, so, in case it stays residing in its place, then you will eventually see Me." Then as soon as his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, He made it pounded (into dust), and Musa collapsed stunned. So, as soon as he recovered, he said, All Extolment be to You! I repent to You, and I am the first of the believers.".

The verse you quoted also answers your question.

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Here  is another rational proof they use  

- Prophet Musa Alayhi Salaam asked to see Allah ﷻ 

- This means Prophet Musa ‘Alayhi Salaam knows it’s possible to see Him ﷻ 

- If it was impossible to see Him ﷻ he would not have asked for it

- If you claim that it’s impossible to see Him ﷻ and that Prophet Musa Alayhi Salaam asked for it; then you are insulting Prophet Musa by claiming he doesn’t know what is Necessary, impossible or Possible in the Right of Allah ﷻ

In other words you are claiming that a Prophet is ignorant of His Lord and this is blasphemy  

 

How  would shias respond 

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- This means Prophet Musa ‘Alayhi Salaam knows it’s possible to see Him ﷻ 

- If it was impossible to see Him ﷻ he would not have asked for it

This is very weird, because the verse clearly says it is impossible to see Him, so it will contradict the Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) assume of possibility. Not only Qur'an but the Torah also says  ‘you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.’  Exodus 33:18

So why Musa (عليه السلام) asked? I don't know why, but what I know is that it caused an event to show all the creations that God can not be seen by vision.

Edited by Abu Nur
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2 hours ago, uar786 said:

Here  is another rational proof they use  

- Prophet Musa Alayhi Salaam asked to see Allah ﷻ 

- This means Prophet Musa ‘Alayhi Salaam knows it’s possible to see Him ﷻ 

- If it was impossible to see Him ﷻ he would not have asked for it

- If you claim that it’s impossible to see Him ﷻ and that Prophet Musa Alayhi Salaam asked for it; then you are insulting Prophet Musa by claiming he doesn’t know what is Necessary, impossible or Possible in the Right of Allah ﷻ

What was the end of incident? Did Musa (عليه السلام) see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) at the mountain of Toor?

وَلَمَّا جَاءَ مُوسَىٰ لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ ۚ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي وَلَٰكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي ۚ فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّىٰ رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ مُوسَىٰ صَعِقًا ۚ فَلَمَّا أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! show me, so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers. (7:143)

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have mentioned You cannot see me. The mountain was crumbled and Musa fell down in a swoon; 

Musa changed his mind / thougths by saying Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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The answer that Allah Almighty gave is interesting. If it were impossible for Allah to be seen, the answer to be given to the wish, “I want to see you” would have been “I am invisible” according to the rules of Arabic. Or the following answers could have been given: "It is not permissible and possible for me to be seen." "How do you want something that is not permissible and possible for me?" "I am not visible." Then, it is understood that the negativity here is not related to the deed but to the incomplete state in the demand and the person demanding it. The negativity of the state of the person is in question. (Jawharatut-Tawhid, p. 186; Ruhul-Beyan, III,

232-33)

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Attributing ru’yah to the stability of the mountain is an evidence for proving ru’yah in another aspect: The mountain remaining in its place is something possible; before the manifestation, the mountain remained in its place. It is possible for the mountain to remain in its place or not. There is a rule of logic regarding the issue: "Everything that is attributed to something that is possible and permissible to happen is possible." Attribution to something that is possible is in question here. If attribution to something impossible like "It will take place if the fish climbs a poplar tree (if pigs fly)" or as it is mentioned in the Quran "It will take place ifthe camel can pass through the eye of the needle" (al-A 'raf, 7/40), were in question, it would be different. It is attributed to something that is possible and permissible here. In that case, ru’yah is possible and permissible.

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On 8/14/2021 at 5:13 PM, uar786 said:

The answer that Allah Almighty gave is interesting. If it were impossible for Allah to be seen, the answer to be given to the wish, “I want to see you” would have been “I am invisible” according to the rules of Arabic. Or the following answers could have been given: "It is not permissible and possible for me to be seen." "How do you want something that is not permissible and possible for me?" "I am not visible." Then, it is understood that the negativity here is not related to the deed but to the incomplete state in the demand and the person demanding it. The negativity of the state of the person is in question. (Jawharatut-Tawhid, p. 186; Ruhul-Beyan, III,

232-33)

This is just a playing with the words to justify an contradiction, this kind of method is used by Christians when they try to prove the Trinity. There are so many verses in Qur'an to indicate the impossibility of likeness of God. This itself gives you an understanding that God is beyond any concepts that is attributed to creations.

God attributes are infinite/Absolute. To see God literally, whatever it means, a person/creation needs to have an infinite/Absolute attribute to witness the seeing of Absolute God, and no creation have (and cannot have) such an infinite/Absolute attributes, so it is impossible. 

Nor is there to Him any equivalent. 112:4

Edited by Abu Nur
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It is interesting to read from New Testament the following statement:

Jesus said: “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God” (Mt. 5:8).

This is actually clear when you read the part of pure heart and seeing God. The Christian commentary says that this seeing is not seeing God literally by vision, but rather:

What, then, is the meaning of “see” in Matthew 5:8? D.R. Dungan suggested that it refers to recognizing God in all the wonders of his creation (Hermeneutics, Cincinnati, Standard, n.d., p. 18). The fool sees only raw “matter” when he contemplates nature (see “senseless heart” Rom. 1:21b); the spiritual person “sees” far beyond that (Rom. 1:20).

Some faces that Day will be shining and radiant, looking at their LordThis what Paradise is, we will look at Him in every moment so clear, by witnessing all the creations, actions, events of Paradise. Why we can see God so clear now like the clarity of the shining full Moon, because in that day Our Heart will be perfected: Our Lord! Perfect our Light for us, and grant us Forgiveness: for Thou hast power over all things.[66:8]

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refer to this same seeing:

Eyes do not see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the realities of belief. He is near to things but not (physically) contiguous. He is far from them but not (physically) separate. He is a speaker, but not with reflection. He intends, but not with preparation. He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel low before His greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him.

Edited by Abu Nur
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Guest Ali Abbas

Salaam brothers,

it seems you are only taking into account five senses here, you are ignoring the existence of the ruh and nafs. 
When prophets ask to see God it is on a completely different level to what we can conceptualise. 
Take jinns, we cannot see them, yet they are existent - if this can apply to creation they why not the creator. 
However, to really understand this debate you have to be able to understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He was there before creation and then kun faya kun there was creation. How can he now fully exist in that same realm of creation, but at the same time he is always in his creation for it is from him they were created

You can’t debate abt seeing God if you can’t understand his existence, to the small extent that us lay humans can understand him.

If you gain a proper understanding that is when the debates can become worthwhile. This is a simple matter of logic and quotes are not needed: but the Qur’an only supports these point when you understand properly.

jzk khair

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On 8/14/2021 at 7:13 AM, uar786 said:

The answer that Allah Almighty gave is interesting. If it were impossible for Allah to be seen, the answer to be given to the wish, “I want to see you” would have been “I am invisible” according to the rules of Arabic. Or the following answers could have been given: "It is not permissible and possible for me to be seen."

Do you have more knowledge than the creator almighty Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) about the Quran?

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2 hours ago, Guest Ali Abbas said:

Salaam brothers,

Take jinns, we cannot see them, yet they are existent - if this can apply to creation they why not the creator. 

Wa Aleikum Salaam,

Because God is not an creation, He is the Absolute Being. And we are not limiting it to 5 senses, even if there were an infinity different senses, we can not use any senses to capture an Absolute Being. Heart is different and it has different function than senses, because it is the heart that sees and hears and feel the presence of God, but not a vision or sound, or feeling or any other senses.

Quote

If you gain a proper understanding that is when the debates can become worthwhile. This is a simple matter of logic and quotes are not needed: but the Qur’an only supports these point when you understand properly.

It does not support it.

Edited by Abu Nur
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Don't expect something rational from them. They not only believe that they can see God but also believes that God is going to shake hands with them:

Narrated / Authority Of: Ubai bin Kab
“The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “The first person with whom Allah will shake hands will be Umar, (and he is) the first person to be greeted with the Salam, and the first person who will be taken by the hand and admitted into Paradise.'” 

Chapter no: 1, The Book of the Sunnah hadees, Sunan ibn Majah #104

 

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