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In the Name of God بسم الله

Does Allah forgives shirk (even by a muslim)?

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Salam Alaykom, 

Question: Can Allah forgives a muslim if they commit shirk? I know Islam is submitting one’s self to The One, but let’s say they committed it. I know in the Quran God says that He won’t forgive shirk. I see some brothers/sisters saying yes and some saying no. I’m confused. 

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6 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Salam,

Allah forgives a person who commits shirk once he repents. The people who think that shirk is unforgivable is due to a misunderstanding of verse 4:48. Those who die without repenting for shirk will not be forgiven for the sin. All scholars, both Sunni and Shia, agree to this. Look at verse 39:53.

Ameen. 

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6 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Salam,

Allah forgives a person who commits shirk once he repents. The people who think that shirk is unforgivable is due to a misunderstanding of verse 4:48. Those who die without repenting for shirk will not be forgiven for the sin. All scholars, both Sunni and Shia, agree to this. Look at verse 39:53.

This is clear, jazak’Allah khayran brother.

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Committing shirk is also related to not esteeming the status of the 14 infallibles.  After I took the shahada, I can tell you it’s night and day how much Allah guides me.  When I was born and raised Jewish I used to believe Allah was distant.  When I became a Shia...it’s like Allah’s presence is on steroids.

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Related question, what are some forms of minor shirk that are common but people do not realize. I think visiting fortune tellers, or believing that those blue Turkish eye amulets keep the evil eye away are some forms of shirk if I'm correct. Are there any others?

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12 hours ago, Uni Student said:

Related question, what are some forms of minor shirk that are common but people do not realize. I think visiting fortune tellers, or believing that those blue Turkish eye amulets keep the evil eye away are some forms of shirk if I'm correct. Are there any others?

Yes exactly, like astrology, palm reading, cristal reading, showing off, saying that without someone something wouldn’t have happened but it’s Allah(azwj) that all good are from.

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12 hours ago, Uni Student said:

Related question, what are some forms of minor shirk that are common but people do not realize. I think visiting fortune tellers, or believing that those blue Turkish eye amulets keep the evil eye away are some forms of shirk if I'm correct. Are there any others?

That hand symbol is probably the most commonly used shirki symbol for Shias, but you do see that eye amulet thing quite frequently as well.

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On 8/5/2021 at 3:57 AM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Salam,

Allah forgives a person who commits shirk once he repents. The people who think that shirk is unforgivable is due to a misunderstanding of verse 4:48. Those who die without repenting for shirk will not be forgiven for the sin. All scholars, both Sunni and Shia, agree to this. Look at verse 39:53.

So this applys  to someone who's done it before thier muslim or a person , who does it when their muslim? or both ways?

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3 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

So this applys  to someone who's done it before thier muslim or a person , who does it when their muslim? or both ways?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives the one who sincerely repents. 

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On 8/9/2021 at 4:51 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

That hand symbol is probably the most commonly used shirki symbol for Shias, but you do see that eye amulet thing quite frequently as well.

 

On 8/9/2021 at 8:20 AM, Uni Student said:

the alams used during muharram??? 

plz clarify 

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44 minutes ago, Uni Student said:

 

 

plz clarify 

Clarify what? That hand, whether you want to call it a hamsa a khamsa, hand of Fatima, kiff 'Abbas, whatever name you want to give it to divert from its origins, is blatantly the most famous pagan symbol currently in use around the world.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Clarify what? That hand, whether you want to call it a hamsa a khamsa, hand of Fatima, kiff 'Abbas, whatever name you want to give it to divert from its origins, is blatantly the most famous pagan symbol currently in use around the world.

Ah ok I looked up images i know what you mean however shias have an alam that looks similar used during muharram, is this also shirk?

https://images.app.goo.gl/33Rvfvy8rApsrTAU9

Edited by Uni Student
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13 hours ago, Uni Student said:

Ah ok I looked up images i know what you mean however shias have an alam that looks similar used during muharram, is this also shirk?

https://images.app.goo.gl/33Rvfvy8rApsrTAU9

It isn't really about it being shirk or not, obviously if people want to hide the fact that they use pagan symbols and pretend they are something else means that they reject the origin of the symbol. My point is why do this? Especially when people want to make such a big deal about wearing a tie for example because it is imitation of the kuffar but then have no issues taking from the kuffar when it suits them.

It is the attitude that is wrong, it makes people hard hearted and stupid because even though they know that something is wrong, because they love it so much they turn their brain off and that will affect other aspects of their religion.

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On 8/9/2021 at 4:51 PM, Ali_Hussain said:

That hand symbol is probably the most commonly used shirki symbol for Shias, but you do see that eye amulet thing quite frequently as well.

Here comes a new terminology "shirki symbol" lol. 

Shirk is shirk whether one symbolize it or not. So what hand symbol has to do with shirk? I am expecting that you have the basic knowledge of shirk. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Cool said:

Here comes a new terminology "shirki symbol" lol. 

Shirk is shirk whether one symbolize it or not. So what hand symbol has to do with shirk? I am expecting that you have the basic knowledge of shirk. 

Because firtility symbols or amulets to ward off the 'evil eye' are symbols of shirk.

What is the correct terminology for this paganism?

 

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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On 8/9/2021 at 4:21 PM, Ali_Hussain said:

That hand symbol is probably the most commonly used shirki symbol for Shias, but you do see that eye amulet thing quite frequently as well.

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The symbol of the Hand in Islam

It is not clear how this symbol entered Islam, but in Islam the meaning of this symbol has changed and taken on another function. The metal Hands mounted on the flags, Alams and multi-blade symbols in the mourning processions are generally considered by the Shiites to be the embodiment of 5 people or the severed hand of Hazrat Abolfazl Abbas (رضي الله عنه). This symbol was changed among the Egyptian Muslims to the "hand of Fatima", the daughter of the Prophet of Islam, due to the Fatimid rule as the first Shiite rule, and Muslims in southern India also consider it a symbol of the hand of Ali, Fatima and Abbas Alamdar (رضي الله عنه). On the first, third or fourth days of Muharram, when Indian Muslim  decorate the "houses of Ashura", Muslim Indian Muslim put the Hand besides of the Alam and make a pilgrimage. Iranians which are living in Turkey in the days of Muharram turn an Alam called the Alam of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) between groups. On the fabrics of this Alam, a hand pattern is embroidered with inscriptions. Each of the Hazarajat Husseiniyahs of Afghanistan has two Alams , big and small, which put the big Alam outside and the small Alam inside the Husseiniya. On the small Alam  a copper hand is  placedon which verses of the Holy Quran are engraved. The Hazaras, like other Shiites, consider this Hand as a symbol of the hand of the Alam bearer of Karbala, Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه), and mourn and pray under it. [8]

 

https://www.karbobala.com/articles/info/848

 

 

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In relation to today's Alams, one of the extremist views is that these sciences and other instruments and tools used in mourning have all entered Iran from Europe and from Christianity. And in fact, these are imitations of the Christian rites in the martyrdom of Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). According to this theory, chaining, razors, music and cymbals, mourning and lamentation have been taken from Christianity, which also has some objections. Others believe that these "Alams" are a symbol of "cypress" and that cypress is a tree that does not succumb to the natural process of plants. And even in winter it is green. That is, he is always alive. Just like a martyr who does not die, and is always alive. Of course, one thing that almost everyone agrees on is that the history of these new Alams is not very long.

But in contrast to this theory, there is another theory which is very weak and seeks to divert the public mind, which says: "... the appearance of the" Alams "leads to the Christian cross (similar). And for this reason, it is not surprising that some people mistakenly believe that the emergence of the Alams is the result of the Shiites imitating the crusaders that the Christians lead in their religious movements during their religious demonstrations. "[5] The author of this article writes: And the cassette is the symbol of the "cypress tree". The long tongues of the Alams are exactly reminiscent of the cypress tree, both in shape and type of vibration. You can look at the relief of the cypress tree at the bottom of the tabs of the Alams. Just like a martyr who does not die and is always alive. "[6]

1. Traditional Shiite mourning, Seyed Hossein Motamedi.

2. Ashura culture, Muhadethi.

 

On 8/14/2021 at 12:39 AM, Uni Student said:

Ah ok I looked up images i know what you mean however shias have an alam that looks similar used during muharram, is this also shirk?

https://images.app.goo.gl/33Rvfvy8rApsrTAU9

 

Quote

3) Sunni brothers disagree with us in the meaning of obediance  and worship. We in obediance  consider intention of obediance as reqired factor and we do not accept  premissible  any act which there is doubt of worshiping  than Allah however just kissing and blessing and etc can't  be considered as Shirk and worshiping  than Allah  . Now the question is where in the Qur'an these acts are considered heresy. When you kiss the cover of the Qur'an because the Qur'an is in it. Anything that is reminiscent of the beloved is beloved, so every religion and school considers Alam and the flag sacred and kisses it not as a cloth but as a symbol of that school.

https://hawzah.net/fa/Question/View/7496/بوسیدن-علمها-چه-حکمی-دارد?CID=495

Quote

Question
Can we kiss the Alams that exist, for example, in the memory of Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه) for respect?

Response
Respect and blessings to the saints of Allah and the righteous servants of Allah and the things that are related to them, there is no problem and it is approved by the elders of the religion.

 Reviving the name and memory of righteous servants is reviving goodness and virtues.

But there are four notable points in this regard:

In this respect and blessing, let us not go beyond the limits of the Shari'a.

 This kind of respect, like kissing, should be with the intention that they are among the righteous and good servants of Allah and have been sent to Allah.

 Let us not deviate from the usual custom and act according to what the religious and the scholars and the knowledgeable do.

 Where these acts may be misused, we should avoid them or provide clear explanations and finally get out of the charge.

https://hawzah.net/fa/Question/View/7496/بوسیدن-علمها-چه-حکمی-دارد?CID=495

 

Quote


Conclusion: First, the history of modern Alams is not very long. Even those who believe that these Alams are a symbol of cypress acknowledge this. [7] Secondly, there is a kind of exaggeration in the first theory, because this theory even introduces mourning as imitation of European Christians. The difference between the two shows the nonsense of this theory, while we believe that the recitation of calamities for Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) began from the time of the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). Some believe that it is more appropriate and reasonable to abandon such Alams and just use the flag. In this regard, Seyyed Hossein Motamedi writes: "The scholars of knowledge and perception believe that leaving aside the Alams and instead holding the black, red and green flags of Hosseini is a better, more sensible and appropriate thing to do." [8] Although of these theories, the tradition of the people in mourning has proven throughout history that they would not enter mourning unless it was a praiseworthy act approved by the ulema and expressing such roots for today's Alams is only to weaken people towards Hosseini's mourning.


 In the wars of the early days of Islam and even before that, Alams (or rite) was usually used, and this Alams was in fact what we call the flag today. Usually in battles, the flag (rite) was given to the bravest and most militant people, and as long as the flag was raised among the corps and did not fall to the ground, the corps were united, in a hadith narrated from the Commander of the Faithful Ali The same thing has been mentioned. Hazrat says: "Always leave the flag of war in the hands of brave and courageous men because steadfast men are strong enough not to leave the flag alone and do not leave it ..." [1] Seyyed Hossein Motamedi writes: "The history of Alams is very long and old. And in Islam and before Islam, it has been common among countries, cities and populations.[2] On the day of Ashura and in the event of Karbala in the year 61 AH, Alams was definitely used and that Alams was not in some of the forms that are common today. His brother Hazrat Abbas ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has been entrusted by him. "[3]" And when Hazrat Abbas (رضي الله عنه) came to serve the Imam and asked him for permission to field. Imam (عليه السلام) cried and at first did not allow it and said: "You are my Alam bearer. If you achieve martyrdom, my army will fall apart." [4

1. Traditional Shiite mourning, Seyed Hossein Motamedi.

2. Ashura culture, Muhadethi.

http://www.ashoora.ir/پرسش-و-پاسخ/3573-جريان-عَلَم-در-واقعه-كربلا-چيست؟-آيا-عَلَم-هاي-امروزي-بيانگر-همان-عَلَم-هاي-واقعه-كربلا-است؟.html

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17 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Because firtility symbols or amulets to ward off the 'evil eye' are symbols of shirk.

What is the correct terminology for this paganism?

 

Quote

This symbol also entered India and Buddhism and became known as the "Hand of Hamsa" which is very popular among Indians.

In the Hindu religion, the five fingers symbolize the five elements of nature and the five centers of energy in the body.

The hand symbol in Buddha

This symbol also entered India and Buddhism and became known as the "Hand of Hamsa" which is very popular among Indians.

In the Hindu religion, the five fingers symbolize the five elements of nature and the five centers of energy in the body.

In Hinduism, the name of this practice is Modras, which is related to the culture of Khumsa.

 

In Buddhism, the meanings of Abhaya Mudra: If it is upwards: do not be afraid (be brave), the hand that protects from evil (the hand of protection), the good are with you; But the story of this hand did not end here, and in addition to repelling the evil eye and protecting against the devil, it also found a religious meaning. [12]

https://www.karbobala.com/articles/info/848

 

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On 8/13/2021 at 10:09 PM, Uni Student said:

Ah ok I looked up images i know what you mean however shias have an alam that looks similar used during muharram, is this also shirk?

https://images.app.goo.gl/33Rvfvy8rApsrTAU9

Prostrating to it and supplicating to it probably would be. Touching it and kissing it probably not, although the key point is that such things cannot be traced back to the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and were invented much later. 

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 Assembly has customs and tools that are different in each country or city, but the flag or emblem of the delegation is a common component that originates in each city or mourning assembly from the religion of that region.
 
The oldest Iranian Alams are kept in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul. These Alams are among the spoils of war, and after the capture of Tabriz by the Ottoman troops, Shah Salim transferred them to Istanbul, which after the spread of Shiism during the reign of Shah Ismail, was used by mourning groups, from iron plates in the form of long and narrow blades. Was made. At the top of it, the traditional and ethnic symbol of the tribe, and in the Shiite religion, the name of Allah or the name of Allah and Muhammad and Ali or the name of Allah and five people were engraved with silver (silver stamping). The long, narrow iron blade ended with a larger, circular plate at the end of the blade with a metal frame. The frame was decorated with dragon heads adapted from Chinese and Japanese art. These flags were placed on wooden or metal handles and carried in front of the groups.
 
With the arrival of Muharram and the use of science and slaughter by the delegations, read the opinion of the imitators in this regard.
 

 

 

Quote


 
Question: What is the ruling on using Alam in the mourning ceremonies of the martyrs (peace be upon them) by placing it in the mourning assembly or carrying it in the mourning procession?

Supreme Leader : There is no problem in itself, but these matters should not be considered part of religion.
 

 
 
Question: Many Takayas during the days of religious mourning carry "signs" that have been bought at a high price and carrying them also causes problems. What is the ruling on these devices from the religious point of view?

Imam Khomeini: There is no problem.

 
Question: What is the ruling on the Alams that are used in the mourning ceremony of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and some of which also have engravings and drawings?

Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani: It is permissible to use them in mourning.


Question: In some mosques, during the days of mourning, various flags are used which have many and precious decorations and sometimes cause religious people to question the principle of their philosophy and disrupt the propaganda programs and even It is in conflict with the holy goals of the mosque, what is the religious ruling in this regard?

Supreme Leader : If placing them in the mosque is contrary to the customary manners of the mosque or disturbs the worshipers, it has problem.
 

 

Quote


Question: According to the rumors that the Alam  is a sign of the cross and the promotion of Christianity, is it wrong to take the sign to the delegations and the streets?

Hazrat Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi : Considering that the enemies are using it for  accusation , it is better to avoid it and  use simple dignified flags.

 
Question: What is your opinion about the use of symbols that have animal statues such as chickens and roosters and other objects and objects frozen on them?

Hazrat Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi : The total of these marks are must be avoided.
 

https://www.yjc.news/fa/news/6257255/حکم-استفاده-از-عَلَم-در-مراسم-عزاداری-چیست

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Question: Is it permissible to sell the cloths and handkerchiefs that are tied to the flag during Muharram and use them in mourning and repairing the Hosseiniyah?

Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani: If there is no need for a place in the mourning ceremony and it is more than usual, they can sell it and provide it for the mourning expenses and needs of the Husseiniyya.
 

 

Quote

Duringf Muharram to the day of Ashura, Alam is taken to every house of the people for pilgrimage and they believe in it and need it. They take. Please answer the following questions in this regard:

a) They make large sums of money as a vow on Alam , and some of them sacrifice sheep in front of Alam . To whom does the victim's cash and sheep belong?

B)Alam holders, who are a group of Sadats, consider the above Alam  as the inheritance of a father, which is passed down from father to son from generation to generation, and they divide the vow funds among themselves. Is this correct? If true, does the girl's children get a share?

C) Considering that the place of Alam  is in Imamzadeh during the year, does any of the vows also belong to Imamzadeh?

Hazrat Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi:a. C) Considering that such things is not mentioned in the narrations of the Infallibles (peace be upon them) at all and there is no historical evidence for it, it is necessary for all believers to leave this work and make their vows to the Board. The trustees of the Husseiniyya, who must be chosen from among the reputable people, must surrender in order to spend their vows on mourning ceremonies and help the orphans and the poor, and not to allow profiteers to abuse the blessed name of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) and the flag.

https://www.yjc.news/fa/news/6257255/حکم-استفاده-از-عَلَم-در-مراسم-عزاداری-چیست

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

although the key point is that such things cannot be traced back to the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and were invented much later. 

What about seeing it as a symbol and reminder of the holy personalities (عليه السلام) and subsequently sending salaam to them in front of the alam. Was this ever done by the people in Karbala or the Imams (عليه السلام)? 

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20 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Because firtility symbols or amulets to ward off the 'evil eye' are symbols of shirk.

Again, I would like to ask you what could be a "symbol of shirk" keeping in view its definition?

A hand which is placed on the top of the Alam, what does it represents? Would you ask for it or would you start chanting "shirki symbol" and start throwing allegation of shirk without studying its relationship with the very definition of shirk? 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

What about seeing it as a symbol and reminder of the holy personalities (عليه السلام) and subsequently sending salaam to them in front of the alam. Was this ever done by the people in Karbala or the Imams (عليه السلام)? 

You're asking if the aimmah used to prop up hand-shaped symbols and send their salutations to them? As far as our books seem to show, no they didn't. This appears to be a later invention. 

If you're interested, there is a talk next weekend on this subject:

https://www.mizaninstitute.org/aza

Edited by Mahdavist
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6 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

prop up hand-shaped symbols

Not necessarily this in particular but if they used anything as a symbol which reminded them to give salaam to their forefathers or family.

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21 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Not necessarily this in particular but if they used anything as a symbol which reminded them to give salaam to their forefathers or family.

Not that I know of. If anyone does they are free to share it along with the corresponding references. 

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