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In the Name of God بسم الله

If you're 'born homosexual', then why is it haram?


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Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

You stated "if".  Why entertain this hypothetical. Let's looks at the evidence and make a judgement on whether some one is born gay.

Science and Islam can never contradict one another—when the scientific community stumbles upon a finding we should be cautious before either dismissing or accepting—better to remain in neutral territory awhile until the smoke clears—seems to be a wide range of factors that cause homosexuality —mainly social, cultural and environmental factors but genetic markers play a role in a person's sexual predisposition scientists are saying—let's study the issue thoroughly and honestly before collapsing a wall on a person or burning them alive or throwing them from the highest pinnacle of a town—that's all I'm saying.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

—seems to be a wide range of factors that cause homosexuality —mainly social, cultural and environmental factors but genetic markers play a role in a person's sexual predisposition scientists are saying—

Islam says it's haram. 

Many factors involved. Therefore not born homosexual.

Seems science and Islam are on the same page.

Again why entertain the hypothetical of you are "born homosexual" as then we need to entertain the false premise of why is it haram if Allah made me this way.

It's basically the same argument ummayad rulers used to say we oppress you as in its what Allah wishes. 

 

.

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Btw it's an established fact. Otherwise all identical twins would share sexuality. There are very few phenotypes that rely on a single gene and they are very simple physical traits. Once you bring multiple genes into the equation and non physical behaviour you can not say it's purely genetic. And like I previously stated even genes can be switched on and off from environmental factors 

It's like a mountain of evidence out there. 

 

Compare it to this example

people who says surgery changes your sex. It doesn't unless we can alter a person DNA and reverse all the effects of what that original DNA dictated. 

In this case it scientific impossible. But it maybe possible one day. So we can entertain a future possibility. But even then it's not the current reality. . 

Homosexuality is clear cut. You are not Bron gay !

Don't entertain nonsense.

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17 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Btw it's an established fact. Otherwise all identical twins would share sexuality. There are very few phenotypes that rely on a single gene and they are very simple physical traits. Once you bring multiple genes into the equation and non physical behaviour you can not say it's purely genetic. And like I previously stated even genes can be switched on and off from environmental factors 

It's like a mountain of evidence out there. 

 

Compare it to this example

people who says surgery changes your sex. It doesn't unless we can alter a person DNA and reverse all the effects of what that original DNA dictated. 

In this case it scientific impossible. But it maybe possible one day. So we can entertain a future possibility. But even then it's not the current reality. . 

Homosexuality is clear cut. You are not Bron gay !

Don't entertain nonsense.

Not to mention that a "gay gene" has never been found and probably will never be found, ever; because it doesn't exist.

But like I said, I feel bad for gay people because they are being lied to by society with the whole "Born This Way™" nonsense, as well as being told that being gay is a "perfectly OK way to be", so they never try to resist the urges to commit homosexual acts or try to change themselves to be of the normal orientation, the way that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created them to be. Matter of fact, if you suggest that people aren't "Born This Way™" and that there is hope for them to change, you're compared to Hitler and are treated like the worst human being imaginable when really, you just want what's best for that person and what's best for society.

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1 hour ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Not to mention that a "gay gene" has never been found and probably will never be found, ever; because it doesn't exist.

Even if it does, genes don't dictate actions. "Being" gay is a hardship. Committing homosexual intimate acts is a sin. 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

You stated "if".  Why entertain this hypothetical. Let's looks at the evidence and make a judgement on whether some one is born gay.

All schools of Islamic jurisprudence maintain that homosexuality is forbidden based on the story of Lūṭ (a)—if you read the story closely you'll realize that the people living in the twin cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) were swayed by their lower animalistic desires—they hated strangers and robbed highway travelers—forms of sexual deviance included homosexuality (specifically male on male rape)—these perverted practices became prevalent and the punishment/wrath was finally brought down from on high—this is understood and I agree— but I'm not talking about this—I'm talking about an extremely small percentage of people who may have certain tendencies or inclinations based on genetic proneness—there are 331,449,281 Americans—4-5% of them identify as LGBTQIA—my belief is that 90-98% (of the 4-5%) are engaging in sexual perversion because it's now considered trendy and fashionable—the government/mainstream media/educational institutions have given them (US citizens) the green light to behave like pigs and engage in any and every indulgence—there's even a popular notion that has gained full momentum among academicians—they now consider "sexual deviance" as an antiquated expression (it has now been replaced with the non-judgmental term "paraphilia") and deem any sexual behavior or act as merely a subjective muse (hence permissible)—(note: there is no scientific unanimity for any dividing line separating unusual sexual practices from paraphilic ones)—and you're right—it does seem like the science is lacking and that liberal special interest groups have succeeded in swaying the scientific consensus into boosting the LGBT agenda for mysterious reasons—despite this I still feel the need to air on the side of caution—humanity stands on the brink of an informational and technological precipice—a time is approaching that will see humanity accelerate unlike any time before—new discoveries will be made in various fields (e.g. AI, biology, chemistry, earth and space sciences etc.)—we are obligated to retain open-mindedness in order to remain on the cutting edge and stay relevant.

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On 8/27/2021 at 12:33 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

people who says surgery changes your sex. It doesn't unless we can alter a person DNA and reverse all the effects of what that original DNA dictated. 

 

Haha. Well This is a funny one. Fun fact: Iran has the most transgender people in the world. Iran doesn't allow homosexuality but it allows transgenders for some reason.

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On 8/25/2021 at 1:46 AM, dragonxx said:

Disagree. If a large proportion of society was gay, we would go extinct instantaneously. God would literally flip the Earth on us =)

I'm pretty sure that's blasphemy. Please don't portray God as (Edited out by moderator)  who kills people on a whim.

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15 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

I'm pretty sure that's blasphemy. Please don't portray God as (Edited out by moderator)  who kills people on a whim.

"So when Our decree came to pass, We turned them upside down and rained down upon them stones, of what had been decreed, one after another."  Quran 11:82

For the crime of approaching men with desire instead of women, the earth was literally flipped on them, and they got capped with stones raining from the sky simultaneously. Let that image sink in. Thus there is nothing blasphemous about what I said. I am free to believe this just as you're free to believe same-sex relations is not egregious.

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On 8/26/2021 at 4:19 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Perhaps this is why Imam Khomeini (r) granted certain homosexuals the right to sex reassignment surgery 

Imam Khomaini did not allow homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery!  This is a western myth and I think claiming such a thing about Imam Khomaini almost amounts to slander. What Imam Khomaini wrote in his book Tahrir al-Wasilah was mainly allowing to remedy a medical condition. His ruling on sex reassignment surgery is that it has no jurisprudencial problems as long as it is prescribed by a qualified physician. Imam Khomaini was not him self a doctor and therefore he leaves it to medical professionals to determine if such a medical condition exists. There are two cases mentioned by Imam Khomaini. The first one is what is historically known as "hermaphroditism" which to day has the medical term "intersex." This is when a person is born with  ambiguous genital or genitals belonging til both sexes. The other case is what is known as "transsexualisme" or "gender identity disorder." This is a condition where a person is born with the brain of one gender and the genitals of the opposite sex or at least perceive to be born in the wrong body. The latter case is of cause the most controversial because it is much more difficult to determine. However Imam Khomaini left this decision to the medical professionals. He issued a specific Fatwa concerning the second case after several discussions with a patient suffering from this condition and he was apparently of the opinion that the condition was real in the patient mentioned. In neither of these cases does Imam Khomaini consider that the gender of the patient is changed by the surgery. Rather the surgery reveals the inherent gender that had always been present in the patient even though it had not been apparent.
Even though both these medical conditions, the intersex and the transsexuals, has been embraced and hijacked into the western LGBTIQ++ umbrella they have nothing to do with sexual desires let alone homosexuality.  They should not be mistaken for people who have various fetishistic lifestyles.
There may be some Iranian homosexuals that on their own behalf has tried to get sex reassignment surgery because they might have thought it would make their life easier or in order to earn money in the street the haram way. I have heard about this from Iranians, but as far as I know this is not condoned by any religious scholars and I think these people would probably end up regretting their lifestyle choice. Unfortunately some of these cases has been picked up by western media and blown out of proportions.

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On 9/12/2021 at 12:32 PM, Revert1963 said:

Imam Khomaini did not allow homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery!

We're arguing over semantics sister—the definition of a homosexual is anyone who is sexually attracted to a member of their own gender.

 

On 9/12/2021 at 12:32 PM, Revert1963 said:

western media and blown out of proportions.

  Western mainstream media tries to blow everything out of proportion and use it for their propaganda needs—they're spin-doctoring masters!

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On 9/12/2021 at 5:32 PM, Revert1963 said:

Imam Khomaini did not allow homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery!  This is a western myth and I think claiming such a thing about Imam Khomaini almost amounts to slander. What Imam Khomaini wrote in his book Tahrir al-Wasilah was mainly allowing to remedy a medical condition. His ruling on sex reassignment surgery is that it has no jurisprudencial problems as long as it is prescribed by a qualified physician. Imam Khomaini was not him self a doctor and therefore he leaves it to medical professionals to determine if such a medical condition exists. There are two cases mentioned by Imam Khomaini. The first one is what is historically known as "hermaphroditism" which to day has the medical term "intersex." This is when a person is born with  ambiguous genital or genitals belonging til both sexes. The other case is what is known as "transsexualisme" or "gender identity disorder." This is a condition where a person is born with the brain of one gender and the genitals of the opposite sex or at least perceive to be born in the wrong body. The latter case is of cause the most controversial because it is much more difficult to determine. However Imam Khomaini left this decision to the medical professionals. He issued a specific Fatwa concerning the second case after several discussions with a patient suffering from this condition and he was apparently of the opinion that the condition was real in the patient mentioned. In neither of these cases does Imam Khomaini consider that the gender of the patient is changed by the surgery. Rather the surgery reveals the inherent gender that had always been present in the patient even though it had not been apparent.
Even though both these medical conditions, the intersex and the transsexuals, has been embraced and hijacked into the western LGBTIQ++ umbrella they have nothing to do with sexual desires let alone homosexuality.  They should not be mistaken for people who have various fetishistic lifestyles.
There may be some Iranian homosexuals that on their own behalf has tried to get sex reassignment surgery because they might have thought it would make their life easier or in order to earn money in the street the haram way. I have heard about this from Iranians, but as far as I know this is not condoned by any religious scholars and I think these people would probably end up regretting their lifestyle choice. Unfortunately some of these cases has been picked up by western media and blown out of proportions.

 

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18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

We're arguing over semantics sister

I don't think so.

18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

the definition of a homosexual is anyone who is sexually attracted to a member of their own gender.

This is not the definition of an intersex or transsexual medical condition. Nowhere does Imam Khomaini mention "sexual attraction."
The sad fact that these medical conditions has been hijacked by the western LGBTIQ+ agenda neither makes them sexual attractions nor fetishistic lifestyles.

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21 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

The Video does not say that Imam Khomaini allowed for homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery! 

 

If a man feels that he is a woman "trapped" in a man's body, do you think he is attracted to men or women? Whether or not he specified that being a 'gay' is the primary reason for permitting this doesn't mean much because the vast majority of transgenders are attracted to the same sex.

The bottom line is that it is a disgusting fatwa that opened the door to transgenderism being normalised within the Shi'a world, and sayed Khomayni was the instigator of it.

Even in liberal circles in the west they are still debating whether a man who has a sex change is a 'real woman' but for the radical taqlidists in our madhhab, such a person is a 'real woman' - because they believe that not accepting any fatwa of their marja' is tantamount to being against the marja'iyya system.

They didn't show the whole clip, but the shaykh near the end, Asad Qasir who is the wakil of sayed Khamene'i gives a load of example of how it is allowed under any circumstances without mentioning that there needs to be a psychological issue.

This whole mess makes the passing away of sayed al-Hakim even more painful because he was the one high profile marja' who stood against transgenderism, whilst the others sadly support it, may Allah forgive them.

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16 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

The bottom line is that it is a disgusting fatwa

This is your opinion. Islamic Jurisprudence on the other hand operates with 5 classifications. An act or a phenomenon can be either Wajib (mandatory), Mustahab (recomended), Mubah (permissible in a neutral sense), Makruh (undesired) or Haram (forbidden). All rulings that are deduced by a Mujtahid, based on objective criteria as according to the principles of ijtihad.  The feeling of "disgust" on the other hand is based on a persons own Nafs. There is a very good reason why the regulations of Sharia law is deduced by qualified Mujtahids and not based on the whims, likes and dislikes of lay people.
One of the main reason why
Imam Khomaini issued his Fatwa's on sex reassignment surgery is because there is no valid argument from the Quran or Hadith for the prohibition of such surgery.
 

17 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

If a man feels that he is a woman "trapped" in a man's body, do you think he is attracted to men or women? Whether or not he specified that being a 'gay' is the primary reason for permitting this doesn't mean much because the vast majority of transgenders are attracted to the same sex.

I think that one of the problem with your argument is that your opinion is based on the western LGBTIQ+ concept. In the western perception, the word "transgender" is an umbrella term which includes various phenomena such as "drag queens" (Gay men that parodies  women), fetishists who gets sexual gratification from cross dressing and political activists (Queers, non-binaries) who pushes an agenda to change society's perception of gender. In order to legitimize all of this they have hijacked people who suffers from the medical condition called "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence," in the same way that they have also hijacked people who suffers from the medical condition "intersex" or "hermaphroditism" in to the larger LGBTIQ+ umbrella term.
Imam Khomaini's Fatwa's on sex reassignment surgery deals exclusively with people suffering from the medical conditions mentioned. It does not include people with the sexual and political lifestyle choices.

Regarding same sex attraction, the terms homosexual and heterosexual is modern terms only a little over a 100 years old. The Quran does not deal with attraction. Only with haram acts. Anybody could be guilty of a haram act if they commits it. It could be argued that modern homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that anybody could choose or not chose to indulge in. And frankly I think that many people are tempted into that lifestyle by the fashion industry, the sex industry or by having the wrong friends. I do not see how choosing a particular lifestyle has anything to do with a medical condition.
In Imam Khomaini's view the gender of the patient who undergoes sex reassignment surgery is not changed by the surgery. Instead the surgery reveals the inherent gender that had always been present in the patient, even though it was before hidden. So in your example; a person who is born with male genitals and a female brain, was in Imam Khomaini's view always female and vice versa. Correcting the genitalia to align with the gender of the brain does not change the gender of the person. In other word the gender of the brain is the gender of the person according to Imam Khomaini. This is a view that he has based on the intersex who's genitals are so ambiguous that you can not determine what gender they are. Therefore the gender of the brain - the gender that the person feel they are - must be the true gender of the person.
So if a person with a male brain has sexual intercourse with an other person with a male brain they are committing a haram act. If a person with a male brain has sexual intercourse with a person with a female brain, providing they are into a proper Islamic marriage together, their relationship is completely halal regardless of the shape of their genitals before the surgery.

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4 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

Therefore the gender of the brain - the gender that the person feel they are - must be the true gender of the person.

This doesn't seem to make sense given people born with ambiguous genitalia don't even have the capacity to communicate this let alone understand the implications.

I am pretty sure there is a hadith that says whichever genitalia the child urinates from, that is his gender. And of course such a person can have sex reassignment surgery (which is really not reassignment, just removal of the "additional" genitalia).

Brain = female gender and body = male sex with clearly XY features including the genitalia, I don't think sex reassignment surgery is permissible for these people no matter how feminine they may act or feel. 

I think this is what you are describing, correct me if I am wrong.

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1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

This doesn't seem to make sense given people born with ambiguous genitalia don't even have the capacity to communicate this let alone understand the implications.

The mental capacity of intersex people (or hermaphrodites) is no different from "normal" people. Of cause if you presuppose that the surgery is done on newborn infants without their consent, then they will not be able to make decisions like an adult. However it is not a given that the surgery is done on an infant and when these people reach adulthood they will definitely be in a position to understand.

 

1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

I am pretty sure there is a hadith that says whichever genitalia the child urinates from, that is his gender. And of course such a person can have sex reassignment surgery (which is really not reassignment, just removal of the "additional" genitalia).

I am not sure if that hadith is considered valid by Shia scholars. (I am not a scholar my self. I only refer to what scholars has written about the subject) However in Shia fiqh the Intersex people is divided into two categories; problematic intersex and non-problematic intersex. The later category has somewhat identifiable genitals though they are still ambiguous. With the problematic intersex on the other hand it is not possible to determine what sex they are even with the criteria of the hadith you are referring to. These people are subject to special regulations in Islamic law. For instance they are not allowed to marry even though they might want to. Because marriage is the half of a persons deen Imam Khomaini and many other Shia Scholars is of the opinion that they should be allowed to correct their genitals to the gender they feel they are. I think it is necessary to understand that this is the stand point where Imam Khomaini is coming from and that it is exactly this principle he apply even to people suffering from gender dysphoria.

 

2 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Brain = female gender and body = male sex with clearly XY features including the genitalia, I don't think sex reassignment surgery is permissible for these people no matter how feminine they may act or feel. 

Most Sunni Scholars does not allow for this. One notable exception is the former Grand mufti of Egypt Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy who issued a fatwa on the subject around the same time that Imam Khomaini did. The problem is that there is no clear verdict from the Quran or the Hadith that deals decisively on this matter. Obviously because it was not possible to perform such surgery at the time of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) it is a new issue. Therefore it is up to Islamic jurist and scholars of fiqh to determine the permisibillity of this phenomenon. Their verdicts clearly differ and the majority of Shia scholars has ruled it to be permissible.
The dividing point in this debate is Surah An-Nisa 4:119, where it says that it is not allowed to change Allahs creation. The scholars who object to this kind of surgery, Sunnis as well as a few Shia, use this verse to substantiate that it is not allowed to change the way Allah created a persons body. This is also why Sunnis prohibits tattoos, cosmetic surgery and even excessive use of make up. The students of Imam Khomaini on the other hand argue that Surah An-Nisa 4:119 is about the religious rituals performed by the mushrikoon of Mecca in the time of Jahiliya and not about alleviating the pain of patients suffering from various kinds of gender ambiguity. Furthermore changing Gods creation is not absolutely forbidden in Islam. In some cases, like with circumcision, it is even wajib on males and according to some scholars mustahab on women. This is why Imam Khomaini and the majority of Shia scholars allow for this kind of surgery. Of cause this raises a number of other jurisprudencial questions of which Shia scholars has also examined, but that is a whole other matter to get into.

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10 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

However it is not a given that the surgery is done on an infant and when these people reach adulthood they will definitely be in a position to understand.

fair point

10 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

With the problematic intersex on the other hand it is not possible to determine what sex they are even with the criteria of the hadith you are referring to. These people are subject to special regulations in Islamic law.

This sounds reasonable, though I don't think the term "gender dysphoria" you used later in your paragraph applies here, because labelling it as gender dysphoria seems to validate the people who have clear male or female biology but carry the delusion that they are of the opposite sex. Intersex is unclear biological sex, so it's invalid that they have a mismatch between their sex and gender when their sex is unclear. This to me is a very very important distinction which can make or break your position.

10 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

The problem is that there is no clear verdict from the Quran or the Hadith that deals decisively on this matter. Obviously because it was not possible to perform such surgery at the time of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) it is a new issue.

I don't think it's a new issue regardless of accessibility to surgery, because my understanding is that there are several ahadith I came across previously which curse the man who acts like a female for example. There were cross dressers, delusional people, and what not back then too. 

Doesn't make sense that a religion for all times does not address the issues of all times.

Also I wonder of the applicability, if any, of the following verse in this discussion:

Quote

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful. Quran 24:31

 

Edited by dragonxx
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15 hours ago, dragonxx said:

This sounds reasonable, though I don't think the term "gender dysphoria" you used later in your paragraph applies here, because labelling it as gender dysphoria seems to validate the people who have clear male or female biology but carry the delusion that they are of the opposite sex.

The problem is how do you determine if somebody is delusional? I think in this case it is difficult to do without resorting to a circular argument. One of the principals of taglid is that knowledge and education gives qualifications that ordinary laypeople do not have. Imam Khomaini knew that he was not a medical professional. That is why he leaves the decision whether a person is delusional to a qualified physician in his fatwa. "Gender dysphoria" is a medical condition that can be diagnosed by doctors. The various issues surrounding such a medical diagnosis is a discussion for the relevant medical professionals. This I think is the core principal that motivated Imam Khomaini from a jurisprudencial point of view. Another thing that played a key factor was that he was approached by a patient suffering from this condition, with whom he had several discussions. Both in France and later in Iran. I think that had this person come across as generally delusional, Imam Khomaini might not have issued his fatwa regarding the operation.

 

15 hours ago, dragonxx said:

I don't think it's a new issue regardless of accessibility to surgery, because my understanding is that there are several ahadith I came across previously which curse the man who acts like a female for example.

These hadiths are often mentioned in this context, however there are also hadiths stating that the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says that he did not come here in order to curse anyone. Both can't be true so this indicates that there is a problem of authentication with the hadith.
Of cause issues such as hermaphrodites and cross dressing does have a history in Islamic jurisprudence. Through history Islamic scholars have had to answer question of gender determination in relation to congregational prayers, inheritance and so on. Imam Khomaini bases his view of patients suffering from gender dysphoria on the historical jurisprudencial debate regarding hermaphrodites. In reality he treats gender dysphoria as a case of "mental hermaphroditism" rather than a case of "imitation." When Islamic jurisprudence has referenced cross dressing it has always been in cases where people (most often males) has pretended to be the opposite sex in order to gain access to forbidden areas. This is what is called "imitation." In the case of gender dysphoria this pretense is not there. Of cause if someone would pretend to have gender dysphoria for the purpose of forbidden gaze, that would be haram, but this is not the motivation of the patients suffering from the mentioned medical condition. On the contrary pretending to have a condition that will lead to a sex change operation does not make sense if it is for the purpose of sexual gratification. You will also see that the majority of the people in the west claiming to be transgender does not want to have the operation simply because most of them are not really suffering from gender dysphoria but cross dress for all sort of lewd reasons.

 

15 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Doesn't make sense that a religion for all times does not address the issues of all times.

I think it is pretty clear that the Quran does not go in detail with a lot of issues. However the very reason for Islamic Fiqh is the need to deduce Islamic law from the principals outlined in the Quran and authentic hadiths.


 

Edited by Revert1963
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19 hours ago, dragonxx said:

 

Doesn't make sense that a religion for all times does not address the issues of all times.

 

The religion gives us a framework to discuss all issues. It gives us the basic premises about the nature of existence that allow us to carry out these discussions, agreeing on the basic premises. It doesn't spell out every issue in an explicitly way, otherwise the Quran would be millions or billions of pages long and it would be subject the tahrif because noone could even read the whole thing in a lifetime and alot of the pages would be irrelevant, depending on the time period that someone lived in. 

In order to come to a conclusion based on the premises, we must rely on first, our own aql (intelligence) in order to discern what makes sense and is not self-contradictory.  (the basics of logic, which can be taught and learned). Second, we must rely of learned and just scholars who can separate between the authentic, fabricated, and weak ahadith and come to a conclusion based on Quran and authentic hadith. Especially now in the world of the internet and the enemies of Islam who are fabricating ahadith 24/7 365 on a massive scale and putting them online, we need to be very careful regarding hadith that we read online. Any hadith that has not been validated and authenticated and published in a paper book which has many copies, and the books were published prior to 1993 (the time when the Internet first became popular), I would basically throw it out because it has a high likelyhood of being fabricated. 

Trying to pull out random ahadith without knowing the source and being familiar with the science of ilm al rijal is a fool's errand. Many people get misguided this way. 

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13 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

The problem is how do you determine if somebody is delusional? I think in this case it is difficult to do without resorting to a circular argument. One of the principals of taglid is that knowledge and education gives qualifications that ordinary laypeople do not have. Imam Khomaini knew that he was not a medical professional. That is why he leaves the decision whether a person is delusional to a qualified physician in his fatwa. "Gender dysphoria" is a medical condition that can be diagnosed by doctors. The various issues surrounding such a medical diagnosis is a discussion for the relevant medical professionals. This I think is the core principal that motivated Imam Khomaini from a jurisprudencial point of view. Another thing that played a key factor was that he was approached by a patient suffering from this condition, with whom he had several discussions. Both in France and later in Iran. I think that had this person come across as generally delusional, Imam Khomaini might not have issued his fatwa regarding the operation.

Side point: what if the doctor him/herself is delusional? Or is coerced by the state to submit to something contrary to truth?

There are universal truths which are simply undeniable, this includes people WITHOUT ambiguous genitalia belonging to their corresponding gender. Male + female = baby, regardless of what the brain thinks. It does not take a doctor to understand this just as it doesn't take a mathematician to understand 2+2=4. 

A delusion is a belief incongruent with reality. A man capable of impregnating a woman, believing he is female, is incongruent with reality. Therefore he has the delusion of gender dysphoria, which does NOT apply to those with ambiguous genitalia given they do not fit the definition of gender dysphoria. No circular argument here. I am unsure why Sayed Khomeini is equating those with genetically abnormal biology (intersex/hermaphrodites) with persons of normal biology and delusional belief (i.e. gender dysphoria), in fact I doubt he was being inclusive of these two groups within the same verdict.

14 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

I think it is pretty clear that the Quran does not go in detail with a lot of issues. However the very reason for Islamic Fiqh is the need to deduce Islamic law from the principals outlined in the Quran and authentic hadiths.

I certainly agree with you and Abu Hadi, though as Abu Hadi elaborated, we have the framework to determine the correct ruling. Certainly 1400 years ago they did not deal with using computers for example, and the temptations which come along with it. Though obviously, we have the framework to point out enjoying explicit material is sinful. Likewise, a man likening himself to a woman or vice versa, whatever the method (expressive, hormonal, surgical), is a no-no.

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On 9/18/2021 at 1:56 AM, dragonxx said:

Side point: what if the doctor him/herself is delusional?

If you talk to an Atheist I am sure he would call religious people delusional. So the way you define reality also define what you call delusional.

 

On 9/18/2021 at 1:56 AM, dragonxx said:

Male + female = baby,

This is not always true. If just one of the parents is infertile for some reason, male + female does not make baby.

 

On 9/18/2021 at 1:56 AM, dragonxx said:

I am unsure why Sayed Khomeini is equating those with genetically abnormal biology (intersex/hermaphrodites) with persons of normal biology and delusional belief (i.e. gender dysphoria)

I think that the person who approached him, who was suffering from gender dysphoria, did not come across to him as delusional. He also knew that this was a diagnosis made by doctors skilled in their field, just like Imam Khomaini was skilled in the field of Islamic Jurisprudence. He did not want to question expert in a field where he was a lay person. Therefore he would not think of transsexualism as "normal biology with delusional belief" but as a case of hermaphroditism where the brain was not aligned with the body. In your terms "abnormal biology" where the brain had been attached to the wrong kind of genitals.
However I think that he did not think in the terms that you do. His focus was Islamic jurisprudence and he could not deduce from the Quran and the Hadith any prohibition for this kind of surgery. When something is not specifically forbidden by Gods law it is allowed. Even if it is considered abnormal, delusional or disgusting by laypeople.

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On 8/24/2021 at 9:30 PM, dragonxx said:

Indeed. A minority of <2% are somehow portrayed as the majority, leading to an artificial increase of up to 8% of LGBTQ+DONKEY as you put it. No wonder there is such a high suicide rate when so many are tricked into such a lifestyle and end up conflicted & regretful.

But yeah as you said, what else to expect from the morality of a nation where walking bare bottom like donkeys is the norm, and where pornography is suddenly ok when it's thrown under the label of "art" or the publicly super accessible "movie".

 

Yeah, I agree.

People who are LGBT in reality are just confused and have been tricked by constant indoctrination by the media, press, and schools. When you teach little children in schools that "being gay is ok" and reading books with "two moms", Of course you'll start confusing the child. Before you know it, Children start identifying with 20 different genders and sexualities. So really, The whole LGBT Agenda is just an agenda to confuse people.

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On 9/19/2021 at 5:51 PM, Revert1963 said:

If you talk to an Atheist I am sure he would call religious people delusional. So the way you define reality also define what you call delusional.

Semantics. But to entertain further, many doctors advocate physician assisted suicide. Does not make it ethical or correct practice from an Islamic standpoint.

On 9/19/2021 at 5:51 PM, Revert1963 said:

This is not always true. If just one of the parents is infertile for some reason, male + female does not make baby.

More semantics.

On 9/19/2021 at 5:51 PM, Revert1963 said:

I think that the person who approached him, who was suffering from gender dysphoria, did not come across to him as delusional. He also knew that this was a diagnosis made by doctors skilled in their field, just like Imam Khomaini was skilled in the field of Islamic Jurisprudence. He did not want to question expert in a field where he was a lay person. Therefore he would not think of transsexualism as "normal biology with delusional belief" but as a case of hermaphroditism where the brain was not aligned with the body. In your terms "abnormal biology" where the brain had been attached to the wrong kind of genitals.
However I think that he did not think in the terms that you do. His focus was Islamic jurisprudence and he could not deduce from the Quran and the Hadith any prohibition for this kind of surgery. When something is not specifically forbidden by Gods law it is allowed. Even if it is considered abnormal, delusional or disgusting by laypeople.

You seem to think and assume a lot.

It's really straight-forward. Intersex - fine, do what you have to do. Normal XY biology with belief of being female - not fine - delusion.

Let me put it in clearer perspective for you - an anorexic patient comes to you with the "brain" that she is obese. Are you going to give this patient gastric bypass surgery?

It's quite simple. Thus I am unsure why people are falling for this transgender surgery is o.k if brain = opposite sex, and gender dysphoria is not a delusion, and gender dysphoria = intersex (which I stated above that it is not equal and explained why it is not equal).

 

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On 9/28/2021 at 2:57 AM, dragonxx said:

...many doctors advocate physician assisted suicide. Does not make it ethical or correct practice from an Islamic standpoint.

"Assisted suicide" is the taking of an other persons life. This is clearly prohibited in the Quran. The same could not be said about an operation to unveil a persons gender.

 

On 9/28/2021 at 2:57 AM, dragonxx said:

It's really straight-forward. Intersex - fine, do what you have to do. Normal XY biology with belief of being female - not fine - delusion.

Would you consider it impossible for God to create a person with female genitals and a male brain? Even though there is a big overlap I think most people would agree that there is differences between men and women. Also in the way we think. There are even reports that differences in male and female thought patterns has shown up on brain scans. This would suggest that person with, say, female genitals and a male brain is not "normal biology." I think that Imam Khomaini was aware that he could not rule out the existence of such a condition and there for he could not automatically assume that the person that sought his permission undergo surgery was delusional. I therefore find it unlikely that Imam Khomaini had any ulterior motives, neither to promote the LGBTQ+agenda nor to make homosexuals "normal" by changing their gender.

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بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

In the name of Allah, The most Merciful, The Most Gracious
ٱللَّٰهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَعَجِّلْ فَرَجَهُمْ
O God, bless Muhammad and the Progeny of Muhammad, and hasten their alleviation

 

Root for misery is not acknowledging that Allahs bounties has no limitations. Allah has commaned believers to do prayes and give charity. This charity is one of the roots for understanding the Generosity in Allahs mercy. Allah is Generous. Those who dont give charity dont acknowledge this reality. Their misery will make them think only to themselves and that leeds to impurities, self glorification, vanity, tyranny, glutony and other selfishness that cause falsehood of self and cruelty. 

 

According to a reliable tradition Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said, “No one considers the acts of Lut’s people halal, but the Almighty kills him with a stone from the stones that rained on the people of Sodom. But the people are unable to see this stone.”

In a correct report Imam Muhammad al-Baqir says, “The Messenger of Allah sought Allah’s refuge from miserliness every morning and every night and we too seek Allah’s refuge from miserliness. According to Imam, the Almighty commands us to beware of miserliness. Only those who refrain from miserliness achieve salvation. Imam warns us of miserliness and says the people of Lut were great misers with their food. As a result the Almighty inflicted them with a terrible ailment of the private parts. There was no cure for this malady.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/account-lut

 

Do good and give charity. Do not account your well givings, alms, sharing food, caring others needs. Give everything to everyone in need when you have opportunity. Allah is Giver of all goodness.

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ
Surat Al-Baqara   سورة البقرة
In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful.
 
الم
Surat Al-Baqara : 1
 
سورة البقرة : ١
Alif, Lam, Mim.
 
ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ
Surat Al-Baqara : 2
 
سورة البقرة : ٢
This is the Book, there is no doubt in it, a guidance to the Godwary,
 
الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ
Surat Al-Baqara : 3
 
سورة البقرة : ٣
who believe in the Unseen, maintain the prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
 
وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَبِالْآخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ
Surat Al-Baqara : 4
 
سورة البقرة : ٤
and who believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.
 
أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَىٰ هُدًى مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ
Surat Al-Baqara : 5
 
سورة البقرة : ٥
Those follow their Lord’s guidance and it is they who are the felicitous.
 
 

 

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On 9/17/2021 at 7:56 PM, dragonxx said:

I am unsure why Sayed Khomeini is equating those with genetically abnormal biology (intersex/hermaphrodites) with persons of normal biology and delusional belief (i.e. gender dysphoria), in fact I doubt he was being inclusive of these two groups within the same verdict.

 

I am not completely sure why, but here is a possible reason

When people come to a marjaa' and tell them something, the marjaa' takes them at their word. They don't make the assumption that they are lying or they have some secret plan to trick the marjaa into saying something by their question (although this happens, but it is not that common). 

So if a man says to Imam Khomeni(رضي الله عنه), 'I'm a women', they treat it the same way as someone coming up to them and saying, 'I'm a cat'. You're a cat, ok. Do you have a tail, do you have 4 legs. You don't. OK, that might be something you want to think about. So a man says, 'I'm a women'. Ok, do you have ovaries, do you have a fallopian tube. No, ok. that's something you might want to consider. 

Now a rational person, when presented with a 'prima facie' case for the fact that they are not a cat, not a woman. would change their position in accordance with that case and with logic. So if they don't accept the 'prima facie' case, from the marjaa', then the marjaa' can make an assumption here that there is something very severe going on with this person that is overriding their 'aql', their rational sense and so in some cases, the marjaa' will give another option to this person, if they don't accept reality, in order to keep them from leaving the religion all together, and maybe thru this option, they will come to realize the expansive mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and come back to the Sirat Al Mustakeem, provided this option does not contradict Quran and / or the clear teaching of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). If a marjaa' cannot find how this option contradicts those, they will allow it, even though there is a possibility it might not help their situation. This is because even a marjaa' doesn't have the right to take away someone's free will, which was granted to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), their only duty is to give someone the allowed, possible options that do not contradict those teachings. That is their sole function in this case. They are not allowed to make the decision whether to do this or not for the person. Only the person themselves can do that. 

Going back to the cat example. If someone wants to act like a cat, in private(crawl around on all fours, drink milk out of a bowl on the floor, chase mice, etc) , or in a way that doesn't affect their Islamic duties, a marjaa' is not allowed to issue a fatwa that this is haram unless they have solid evidence this is haram. If they do this without evidence, this is a very big crime, and they would not be qualified to be a marjaa if they did this. That is why you see many marjaa', when faced with fiqh questions, use the qualifier 'Ihtiyyat', in other words I'm not 100% sure but I have reliable evidence that this is haram / wajib / etc. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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On 10/4/2021 at 12:57 PM, Revert1963 said:

"Assisted suicide" is the taking of an other persons life. This is clearly prohibited in the Quran. The same could not be said about an operation to unveil a persons gender.

What I said here was in response to your proof that if doctors say it's ok that makes it ok. It doesn't.

Unveil a person's gender? You don't see the slippery slope that comes with this? What about unveiling a person's animal instincts - the darkness and evil from your premise is astonishing.

This is what we are coming to, accepting and supporting delusional disorders.

On 10/4/2021 at 12:57 PM, Revert1963 said:

Would you consider it impossible for God to create a person with female genitals and a male brain?

I consider it impossible for God to create a person with irresistible nature and state that very nature is haram. This is in effect imposing sin on a person given a complete lack of choice.

On 10/4/2021 at 12:57 PM, Revert1963 said:

There are even reports that differences in male and female thought patterns has shown up on brain scans. This would suggest that person with, say, female genitals and a male brain is not "normal biology."

Great. There are reports of a lot of interesting things on brain scans. Does not supersede basic principles both religious and scientific.

 

8 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Now a rational person, when presented with a 'prima facie' case for the fact that they are not a cat, not a woman. would change their position in accordance with that case and with logic. So if they don't accept the 'prima facie' case, from the marjaa', then the marjaa' can make an assumption here that there is something very severe going on with this person that is overriding their 'aql', their rational sense and so in some cases, the marjaa' will give another option to this person, if they don't accept reality, in order to keep them from leaving the religion all together, and maybe thru this option, they will come to realize the expansive mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and come back to the Sirat Al Mustakeem, provided this option does not contradict Quran and / or the clear teaching of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). If a marjaa' cannot find how this option contradicts those, they will allow it, even though there is a possibility it might not help their situation. This is because even a marjaa' doesn't have the right to take away someone's free will, which was granted to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), their only duty is to give someone the allowed, possible options that do not contradict those teachings. That is their sole function in this case. They are not allowed to make the decision whether to do this or not for the person. Only the person themselves can do that. 

There is some logic to this but with the specific point which this thread is referring to, I don't believe it's applicable. There are dozens of horrific examples where a person's emotions or beliefs completely overrides their aql/rational sense, and we don't give any option other than "it's unacceptable". Choosing to tolerate it is a different approach altogether which may be appropriate at times, but validating certain beliefs with provision of alternative options that are somehow simultaneously non-contradictory to the transgressing belief is something I fail to fathom.

An example, a person suffering from severe mania and not praying I understand, but putting out a public statement saying "it's generally acceptable in this situation to skip prayer" as opposed to "it's incorrect however Allah is forgiving in this scenario" are completely different. Mental health institutes exist for a reason, but we have permitted more and more delusions and perversions to be accepted and change the fabric of society similar to the people of Nabi Lut ((عليه السلام)). 

 

 

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10 hours ago, dragonxx said:

What I said here was in response to your proof that if doctors say it's ok that makes it ok. It doesn't.

Unveil a person's gender? You don't see the slippery slope that comes with this? What about unveiling a person's animal instincts - the darkness and evil from your premise is astonishing.

This is what we are coming to, accepting and supporting delusional disorders.

I consider it impossible for God to create a person with irresistible nature and state that very nature is haram. This is in effect imposing sin on a person given a complete lack of choice.

Great. There are reports of a lot of interesting things on brain scans. Does not supersede basic principles both religious and scientific.

 

There is some logic to this but with the specific point which this thread is referring to, I don't believe it's applicable. There are dozens of horrific examples where a person's emotions or beliefs completely overrides their aql/rational sense, and we don't give any option other than "it's unacceptable". Choosing to tolerate it is a different approach altogether which may be appropriate at times, but validating certain beliefs with provision of alternative options that are somehow simultaneously non-contradictory to the transgressing belief is something I fail to fathom.

An example, a person suffering from severe mania and not praying I understand, but putting out a public statement saying "it's generally acceptable in this situation to skip prayer" as opposed to "it's incorrect however Allah is forgiving in this scenario" are completely different. Mental health institutes exist for a reason, but we have permitted more and more delusions and perversions to be accepted and change the fabric of society similar to the people of Nabi Lut ((عليه السلام)). 

 

 

I don't know the exact reason, but here is a possible explanation. Prayer is only accepted by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) when it is done with the proper Niyyat(intention). This means the person who is doing Salat should have the idea in their mind, 'I am praying wajib / mustahab salat, which prayer they are praying (Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha, or one of the Mustahab prayers Salat Al Layl, Witr, etc), with the intention of praying this prayer with the proper form (Takbir, Rukat, Sujud, proper number of Sujud, etc), and with the Niyyat of Qurba (with the goal of becoming closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). So the prayer is acceptable under these conditions. If someone is insane, because of their lack of aql, they have no ability to keep these things in their mind, because this requires aql, which they are unable to achieve. 

Asking an insane person (someone with little or no aql) to pray is like asking someone to jump over a 10 story building and then if they don't to punish them for that. This is not just, because they don't have the ability to do that. That is a possible reason for the statement "it's generally acceptable in this situatin to skip prayer". Because Salat requires aql, niyyat, etc. Without these, there is no Salat. In a way, it is the same reason why a women who is menstruating is excused from Salat. A precondition for Salat to be accepted is Taharat, without Taharat there is no Salat. A women in this state cannot become Tahir, therefore she is excused. 

Someone having mental health issues is different from someone being insane. An insane person is someone who has lost their grasp of reality. There are other mental health issues, like depression, ocd (obsessive compulsive disorder), etc, which affect a person mentally but generally these people still have a grip on reality and still understand what is going on around them. These people are not excused from doing Salat. As long as it is possible for someone to fulfill the preconditions for Salat (Niyyat, Taharat, etc), Salat is wajib for them, otherwise it isn't. 

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15 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Unveil a person's gender? You don't see the slippery slope that comes with this? What about unveiling a person's animal instincts - the darkness and evil from your premise is astonishing.

I am trying to explain to you why Imam Khomaini issued the fatwa that allowed for a person to undergo surgery to unveil their true gender. I am mainly relying on information that can be found in this article:  احکام و آثار تغییر جنسیت از دیدگاه امام خمینی Unfortunately it is behind a pay wall, but you can read the first part of the article if you register for free.
My premise is that Imam Khomaini did not do this in order to make homosexuals "normal" by changing their gender, like it is thought in the west. Nor did  Imam Khomaini do this in order to promote the LGBTQ+agenda like some Sunni extremists would claim.

15 hours ago, dragonxx said:

I consider it impossible for God to create a person with irresistible nature and state that very nature is haram. This is in effect imposing sin on a person given a complete lack of choice.

Imam Khomaini did not think that such a procedure has any jurisprudential problems in Islamic law. In other words he could not find any basis for ruling that surgery to unveil a persons true gender is a sin. I think that according to Islam, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is able to create what ever he wants. Therefore I think that Imam Khomaini considered it quite possible that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created persons with the genitals of one gender and the brain of an other. Exactly parallel with intersex people / Hermaphrodites.
I think that what blocks you from understanding Imam Khomaini's view is that you view this condition in the light of the western LGBTQ+ concept. However when Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creates challenges for people it is not always about abstaining from sin. Creating a person with ambiguous genital or a person with just one arm or with no legs certainly is challenging for these people, but prohibiting them from remedy their physical condition is not a part of the challenge. In Imam Khomaini's view it is the same way with persons who's genitals does not match their brain.

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