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In the Name of God بسم الله

If your born homosexual, then why it is haram?


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Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

You stated "if".  Why entertain this hypothetical. Let's looks at the evidence and make a judgement on whether some one is born gay.

Science and Islam can never contradict one another—when the scientific community stumbles upon a finding we should be cautious before either dismissing or accepting—better to remain in neutral territory awhile until the smoke clears—seems to be a wide range of factors that cause homosexuality —mainly social, cultural and environmental factors but genetic markers play a role in a person's sexual predisposition scientists are saying—let's study the issue thoroughly and honestly before collapsing a wall on a person or burning them alive or throwing them from the highest pinnacle of a town—that's all I'm saying.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

—seems to be a wide range of factors that cause homosexuality —mainly social, cultural and environmental factors but genetic markers play a role in a person's sexual predisposition scientists are saying—

Islam says it's haram. 

Many factors involved. Therefore not born homosexual.

Seems science and Islam are on the same page.

Again why entertain the hypothetical of you are "born homosexual" as then we need to entertain the false premise of why is it haram if Allah made me this way.

It's basically the same argument ummayad rulers used to say we oppress you as in its what Allah wishes. 

 

.

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Btw it's an established fact. Otherwise all identical twins would share sexuality. There are very few phenotypes that rely on a single gene and they are very simple physical traits. Once you bring multiple genes into the equation and non physical behaviour you can not say it's purely genetic. And like I previously stated even genes can be switched on and off from environmental factors 

It's like a mountain of evidence out there. 

 

Compare it to this example

people who says surgery changes your sex. It doesn't unless we can alter a person DNA and reverse all the effects of what that original DNA dictated. 

In this case it scientific impossible. But it maybe possible one day. So we can entertain a future possibility. But even then it's not the current reality. . 

Homosexuality is clear cut. You are not Bron gay !

Don't entertain nonsense.

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17 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Btw it's an established fact. Otherwise all identical twins would share sexuality. There are very few phenotypes that rely on a single gene and they are very simple physical traits. Once you bring multiple genes into the equation and non physical behaviour you can not say it's purely genetic. And like I previously stated even genes can be switched on and off from environmental factors 

It's like a mountain of evidence out there. 

 

Compare it to this example

people who says surgery changes your sex. It doesn't unless we can alter a person DNA and reverse all the effects of what that original DNA dictated. 

In this case it scientific impossible. But it maybe possible one day. So we can entertain a future possibility. But even then it's not the current reality. . 

Homosexuality is clear cut. You are not Bron gay !

Don't entertain nonsense.

Not to mention that a "gay gene" has never been found and probably will never be found, ever; because it doesn't exist.

But like I said, I feel bad for gay people because they are being lied to by society with the whole "Born This Way™" nonsense, as well as being told that being gay is a "perfectly OK way to be", so they never try to resist the urges to commit homosexual acts or try to change themselves to be of the normal orientation, the way that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created them to be. Matter of fact, if you suggest that people aren't "Born This Way™" and that there is hope for them to change, you're compared to Hitler and are treated like the worst human being imaginable when really, you just want what's best for that person and what's best for society.

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1 hour ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Not to mention that a "gay gene" has never been found and probably will never be found, ever; because it doesn't exist.

Even if it does, genes don't dictate actions. "Being" gay is a hardship. Committing homosexual intimate acts is a sin. 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

You stated "if".  Why entertain this hypothetical. Let's looks at the evidence and make a judgement on whether some one is born gay.

All schools of Islamic jurisprudence maintain that homosexuality is forbidden based on the story of Lūṭ (a)—if you read the story closely you'll realize that the people living in the twin cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) were swayed by their lower animalistic desires—they hated strangers and robbed highway travelers—forms of sexual deviance included homosexuality (specifically male on male rape)—these perverted practices became prevalent and the punishment/wrath was finally brought down from on high—this is understood and I agree— but I'm not talking about this—I'm talking about an extremely small percentage of people who may have certain tendencies or inclinations based on genetic proneness—there are 331,449,281 Americans—4-5% of them identify as LGBTQIA—my belief is that 90-98% (of the 4-5%) are engaging in sexual perversion because it's now considered trendy and fashionable—the government/mainstream media/educational institutions have given them (US citizens) the green light to behave like pigs and engage in any and every indulgence—there's even a popular notion that has gained full momentum among academicians—they now consider "sexual deviance" as an antiquated expression (it has now been replaced with the non-judgmental term "paraphilia") and deem any sexual behavior or act as merely a subjective muse (hence permissible)—(note: there is no scientific unanimity for any dividing line separating unusual sexual practices from paraphilic ones)—and you're right—it does seem like the science is lacking and that liberal special interest groups have succeeded in swaying the scientific consensus into boosting the LGBT agenda for mysterious reasons—despite this I still feel the need to air on the side of caution—humanity stands on the brink of an informational and technological precipice—a time is approaching that will see humanity accelerate unlike any time before—new discoveries will be made in various fields (e.g. AI, biology, chemistry, earth and space sciences etc.)—we are obligated to retain open-mindedness in order to remain on the cutting edge and stay relevant.

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On 8/27/2021 at 12:33 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

people who says surgery changes your sex. It doesn't unless we can alter a person DNA and reverse all the effects of what that original DNA dictated. 

 

Haha. Well This is a funny one. Fun fact: Iran has the most transgender people in the world. Iran doesn't allow homosexuality but it allows transgenders for some reason.

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On 8/25/2021 at 1:46 AM, dragonxx said:

Disagree. If a large proportion of society was gay, we would go extinct instantaneously. God would literally flip the Earth on us =)

I'm pretty sure that's blasphemy. Please don't portray God as (Edited out by moderator)  who kills people on a whim.

Edited by Mahdavist
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15 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

I'm pretty sure that's blasphemy. Please don't portray God as (Edited out by moderator)  who kills people on a whim.

"So when Our decree came to pass, We turned them upside down and rained down upon them stones, of what had been decreed, one after another."  Quran 11:82

For the crime of approaching men with desire instead of women, the earth was literally flipped on them, and they got capped with stones raining from the sky simultaneously. Let that image sink in. Thus there is nothing blasphemous about what I said. I am free to believe this just as you're free to believe same-sex relations is not egregious.

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On 8/26/2021 at 4:19 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Perhaps this is why Imam Khomeini (r) granted certain homosexuals the right to sex reassignment surgery 

Imam Khomaini did not allow homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery!  This is a western myth and I think claiming such a thing about Imam Khomaini almost amounts to slander. What Imam Khomaini wrote in his book Tahrir al-Wasilah was mainly allowing to remedy a medical condition. His ruling on sex reassignment surgery is that it has no jurisprudencial problems as long as it is prescribed by a qualified physician. Imam Khomaini was not him self a doctor and therefore he leaves it to medical professionals to determine if such a medical condition exists. There are two cases mentioned by Imam Khomaini. The first one is what is historically known as "hermaphroditism" which to day has the medical term "intersex." This is when a person is born with  ambiguous genital or genitals belonging til both sexes. The other case is what is known as "transsexualisme" or "gender identity disorder." This is a condition where a person is born with the brain of one gender and the genitals of the opposite sex or at least perceive to be born in the wrong body. The latter case is of cause the most controversial because it is much more difficult to determine. However Imam Khomaini left this decision to the medical professionals. He issued a specific Fatwa concerning the second case after several discussions with a patient suffering from this condition and he was apparently of the opinion that the condition was real in the patient mentioned. In neither of these cases does Imam Khomaini consider that the gender of the patient is changed by the surgery. Rather the surgery reveals the inherent gender that had always been present in the patient even though it had not been apparent.
Even though both these medical conditions, the intersex and the transsexuals, has been embraced and hijacked into the western LGBTIQ++ umbrella they have nothing to do with sexual desires let alone homosexuality.  They should not be mistaken for people who have various fetishistic lifestyles.
There may be some Iranian homosexuals that on their own behalf has tried to get sex reassignment surgery because they might have thought it would make their life easier or in order to earn money in the street the haram way. I have heard about this from Iranians, but as far as I know this is not condoned by any religious scholars and I think these people would probably end up regretting their lifestyle choice. Unfortunately some of these cases has been picked up by western media and blown out of proportions.

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On 9/12/2021 at 12:32 PM, Revert1963 said:

Imam Khomaini did not allow homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery!

We're arguing over semantics sister—the definition of a homosexual is anyone who is sexually attracted to a member of their own gender.

 

On 9/12/2021 at 12:32 PM, Revert1963 said:

western media and blown out of proportions.

  Western mainstream media tries to blow everything out of proportion and use it for their propaganda needs—they're spin-doctoring masters!

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On 9/12/2021 at 5:32 PM, Revert1963 said:

Imam Khomaini did not allow homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery!  This is a western myth and I think claiming such a thing about Imam Khomaini almost amounts to slander. What Imam Khomaini wrote in his book Tahrir al-Wasilah was mainly allowing to remedy a medical condition. His ruling on sex reassignment surgery is that it has no jurisprudencial problems as long as it is prescribed by a qualified physician. Imam Khomaini was not him self a doctor and therefore he leaves it to medical professionals to determine if such a medical condition exists. There are two cases mentioned by Imam Khomaini. The first one is what is historically known as "hermaphroditism" which to day has the medical term "intersex." This is when a person is born with  ambiguous genital or genitals belonging til both sexes. The other case is what is known as "transsexualisme" or "gender identity disorder." This is a condition where a person is born with the brain of one gender and the genitals of the opposite sex or at least perceive to be born in the wrong body. The latter case is of cause the most controversial because it is much more difficult to determine. However Imam Khomaini left this decision to the medical professionals. He issued a specific Fatwa concerning the second case after several discussions with a patient suffering from this condition and he was apparently of the opinion that the condition was real in the patient mentioned. In neither of these cases does Imam Khomaini consider that the gender of the patient is changed by the surgery. Rather the surgery reveals the inherent gender that had always been present in the patient even though it had not been apparent.
Even though both these medical conditions, the intersex and the transsexuals, has been embraced and hijacked into the western LGBTIQ++ umbrella they have nothing to do with sexual desires let alone homosexuality.  They should not be mistaken for people who have various fetishistic lifestyles.
There may be some Iranian homosexuals that on their own behalf has tried to get sex reassignment surgery because they might have thought it would make their life easier or in order to earn money in the street the haram way. I have heard about this from Iranians, but as far as I know this is not condoned by any religious scholars and I think these people would probably end up regretting their lifestyle choice. Unfortunately some of these cases has been picked up by western media and blown out of proportions.

 

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18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

We're arguing over semantics sister

I don't think so.

18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

the definition of a homosexual is anyone who is sexually attracted to a member of their own gender.

This is not the definition of an intersex or transsexual medical condition. Nowhere does Imam Khomaini mention "sexual attraction."
The sad fact that these medical conditions has been hijacked by the western LGBTIQ+ agenda neither makes them sexual attractions nor fetishistic lifestyles.

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21 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

The Video does not say that Imam Khomaini allowed for homosexuals to undergo sex reassignment surgery! 

 

If a man feels that he is a woman "trapped" in a man's body, do you think he is attracted to men or women? Whether or not he specified that being a 'gay' is the primary reason for permitting this doesn't mean much because the vast majority of transgenders are attracted to the same sex.

The bottom line is that it is a disgusting fatwa that opened the door to transgenderism being normalised within the Shi'a world, and sayed Khomayni was the instigator of it.

Even in liberal circles in the west they are still debating whether a man who has a sex change is a 'real woman' but for the radical taqlidists in our madhhab, such a person is a 'real woman' - because they believe that not accepting any fatwa of their marja' is tantamount to being against the marja'iyya system.

They didn't show the whole clip, but the shaykh near the end, Asad Qasir who is the wakil of sayed Khamene'i gives a load of example of how it is allowed under any circumstances without mentioning that there needs to be a psychological issue.

This whole mess makes the passing away of sayed al-Hakim even more painful because he was the one high profile marja' who stood against transgenderism, whilst the others sadly support it, may Allah forgive them.

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16 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

The bottom line is that it is a disgusting fatwa

This is your opinion. Islamic Jurisprudence on the other hand operates with 5 classifications. An act or a phenomenon can be either Wajib (mandatory), Mustahab (recomended), Mubah (permissible in a neutral sense), Makruh (undesired) or Haram (forbidden). All rulings that are deduced by a Mujtahid, based on objective criteria as according to the principles of ijtihad.  The feeling of "disgust" on the other hand is based on a persons own Nafs. There is a very good reason why the regulations of Sharia law is deduced by qualified Mujtahids and not based on the whims, likes and dislikes of lay people.
One of the main reason why
Imam Khomaini issued his Fatwa's on sex reassignment surgery is because there is no valid argument from the Quran or Hadith for the prohibition of such surgery.
 

17 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

If a man feels that he is a woman "trapped" in a man's body, do you think he is attracted to men or women? Whether or not he specified that being a 'gay' is the primary reason for permitting this doesn't mean much because the vast majority of transgenders are attracted to the same sex.

I think that one of the problem with your argument is that your opinion is based on the western LGBTIQ+ concept. In the western perception, the word "transgender" is an umbrella term which includes various phenomena such as "drag queens" (Gay men that parodies  women), fetishists who gets sexual gratification from cross dressing and political activists (Queers, non-binaries) who pushes an agenda to change society's perception of gender. In order to legitimize all of this they have hijacked people who suffers from the medical condition called "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence," in the same way that they have also hijacked people who suffers from the medical condition "intersex" or "hermaphroditism" in to the larger LGBTIQ+ umbrella term.
Imam Khomaini's Fatwa's on sex reassignment surgery deals exclusively with people suffering from the medical conditions mentioned. It does not include people with the sexual and political lifestyle choices.

Regarding same sex attraction, the terms homosexual and heterosexual is modern terms only a little over a 100 years old. The Quran does not deal with attraction. Only with haram acts. Anybody could be guilty of a haram act if they commits it. It could be argued that modern homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that anybody could choose or not chose to indulge in. And frankly I think that many people are tempted into that lifestyle by the fashion industry, the sex industry or by having the wrong friends. I do not see how choosing a particular lifestyle has anything to do with a medical condition.
In Imam Khomaini's view the gender of the patient who undergoes sex reassignment surgery is not changed by the surgery. Instead the surgery reveals the inherent gender that had always been present in the patient, even though it was before hidden. So in your example; a person who is born with male genitals and a female brain, was in Imam Khomaini's view always female and vice versa. Correcting the genitalia to align with the gender of the brain does not change the gender of the person. In other word the gender of the brain is the gender of the person according to Imam Khomaini. This is a view that he has based on the intersex who's genitals are so ambiguous that you can not determine what gender they are. Therefore the gender of the brain - the gender that the person feel they are - must be the true gender of the person.
So if a person with a male brain has sexual intercourse with an other person with a male brain they are committing a haram act. If a person with a male brain has sexual intercourse with a person with a female brain, providing they are into a proper Islamic marriage together, their relationship is completely halal regardless of the shape of their genitals before the surgery.

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4 hours ago, Revert1963 said:

Therefore the gender of the brain - the gender that the person feel they are - must be the true gender of the person.

This doesn't seem to make sense given people born with ambiguous genitalia don't even have the capacity to communicate this let alone understand the implications.

I am pretty sure there is a hadith that says whichever genitalia the child urinates from, that is his gender. And of course such a person can have sex reassignment surgery (which is really not reassignment, just removal of the "additional" genitalia).

Brain = female gender and body = male sex with clearly XY features including the genitalia, I don't think sex reassignment surgery is permissible for these people no matter how feminine they may act or feel. 

I think this is what you are describing, correct me if I am wrong.

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1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

This doesn't seem to make sense given people born with ambiguous genitalia don't even have the capacity to communicate this let alone understand the implications.

The mental capacity of intersex people (or hermaphrodites) is no different from "normal" people. Of cause if you presuppose that the surgery is done on newborn infants without their consent, then they will not be able to make decisions like an adult. However it is not a given that the surgery is done on an infant and when these people reach adulthood they will definitely be in a position to understand.

 

1 hour ago, dragonxx said:

I am pretty sure there is a hadith that says whichever genitalia the child urinates from, that is his gender. And of course such a person can have sex reassignment surgery (which is really not reassignment, just removal of the "additional" genitalia).

I am not sure if that hadith is considered valid by Shia scholars. (I am not a scholar my self. I only refer to what scholars has written about the subject) However in Shia fiqh the Intersex people is divided into two categories; problematic intersex and non-problematic intersex. The later category has somewhat identifiable genitals though they are still ambiguous. With the problematic intersex on the other hand it is not possible to determine what sex they are even with the criteria of the hadith you are referring to. These people are subject to special regulations in Islamic law. For instance they are not allowed to marry even though they might want to. Because marriage is the half of a persons deen Imam Khomaini and many other Shia Scholars is of the opinion that they should be allowed to correct their genitals to the gender they feel they are. I think it is necessary to understand that this is the stand point where Imam Khomaini is coming from and that it is exactly this principle he apply even to people suffering from gender dysphoria.

 

2 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Brain = female gender and body = male sex with clearly XY features including the genitalia, I don't think sex reassignment surgery is permissible for these people no matter how feminine they may act or feel. 

Most Sunni Scholars does not allow for this. One notable exception is the former Grand mufti of Egypt Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy who issued a fatwa on the subject around the same time that Imam Khomaini did. The problem is that there is no clear verdict from the Quran or the Hadith that deals decisively on this matter. Obviously because it was not possible to perform such surgery at the time of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) it is a new issue. Therefore it is up to Islamic jurist and scholars of fiqh to determine the permisibillity of this phenomenon. Their verdicts clearly differ and the majority of Shia scholars has ruled it to be permissible.
The dividing point in this debate is Surah An-Nisa 4:119, where it says that it is not allowed to change Allahs creation. The scholars who object to this kind of surgery, Sunnis as well as a few Shia, use this verse to substantiate that it is not allowed to change the way Allah created a persons body. This is also why Sunnis prohibits tattoos, cosmetic surgery and even excessive use of make up. The students of Imam Khomaini on the other hand argue that Surah An-Nisa 4:119 is about the religious rituals performed by the mushrikoon of Mecca in the time of Jahiliya and not about alleviating the pain of patients suffering from various kinds of gender ambiguity. Furthermore changing Gods creation is not absolutely forbidden in Islam. In some cases, like with circumcision, it is even wajib on males and according to some scholars mustahab on women. This is why Imam Khomaini and the majority of Shia scholars allow for this kind of surgery. Of cause this raises a number of other jurisprudencial questions of which Shia scholars has also examined, but that is a whole other matter to get into.

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