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In the Name of God بسم الله

If your born homosexual, then why it is haram?


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So, As we all know, Homosexuality is haram in Islam. A commonly question is, if your born with homosexuality/naturally homosexual, then why would it be haram? Didn't Allah make everyone perfectly? So why would homosexuality be haram?

Now then, I've tried to find an answer for this, and It's a pretty tough question. It would seem quite hard to understand why it would be like this. It's especially pretty hard to understand the "If you are gay, then you just can't marry for the rest of your life", Which would not really be a good moral argument. They then present the argument that "Imagine if you were told that being straight is a sin, and that you can only be homosexual. And If you can't be homosexual, then you have to remain celibate for the rest of your life." It then seems like a pretty solid argument.

So, If it's two consenting adults, and it causes no harm, do we got a moral argument against it?

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All of life is a test. Some have it pretty easy and their test is to go beyond. Others have it much harder and their test is to persevere. 

Alcoholism is genetic, but that doesn't make it not a sin. 

Having a violent temper is genetic, and still one with that predisposition must learn control. 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

They then present the argument that "Imagine if you were told that being straight is a sin, and that you can only be homosexual. And If you can't be homosexual, then you have to remain celibate for the rest of your life." It then seems like a pretty solid argument.

With this argument, humanity will only survive for ~100 years before going extinct. Doesn't seem to me like a pretty solid argument.

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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5 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

With this argument, humanity will only survive for ~100 years before going extinct. Doesn't seem to me like a pretty solid argument.

Indeed. Let's say for argument sake, that they can reproduce, and heterosexuals can't reproduce. What's the argument now?

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2 minutes ago, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

Indeed. Let's say for argument sake, that they can reproduce, and heterosexuals can't reproduce. What's the argument now?

What? Is that what they call a Red Herring? I'm not sure about the terminology, but bringing up impossible hypotheticals is an invalid argument. 

Homosexuals can adopt or can use technology to reproduce, but that takes nothing away from heterosexuals.

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What is actually haram are the acts of homosexuality. 

There are some desires which can be fulfilled in a halal manner and others which can't.

Homosexual acts are among those that cannot be fulfilled (in the same way as desiring whisky, pork, marriage with an idolator etc)

If someone happens to desire someone of their own gender, or happens to crave pork, this in itself is not punishable. However, fulfilling these forbidden desires is punishable.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Your argument follows logically from your premise, but your premise is wrong. Yes, if people were born homosexual then it would be unjust for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to punish someone for something they had no control over. People are not born homosexual.

Agree! There is no gay gene. It's just propaganda to bend the narrative that the infallible God made them that way and religious folk should be accommodating. A literal fallacy.

Study done on a large sample size of 470,000 leads to the following result;

“There is no ‘gay gene’ that determines whether someone has same-sex partners,” says Andrea Ganna, a geneticist at …  MIT and Harvard … . Family studies have suggested that genetics account for about 32 percent of heritability of homosexual behavior. But each …  [gene] has a very small effect on whether someone has ever had a same-sex sexual partner, the new research found."

It's completely environmental and social. Mental Illness being promoted on the front lines of society as acceptable. Thus the devil is having a field day tempting.

Full study can be found; https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6456/eaat7693

 

 

Edited by Patient Warrior
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On 7/31/2021 at 2:39 AM, Patient Warrior said:

Agree! There is no gay gene. It's just propaganda to bend the narrative that the infallible God made them that way and religious folk should be accommodating. A literal fallacy.

Study done on a large sample size of 470,000 leads to the following result;

“There is no ‘gay gene’ that determines whether someone has same-sex partners,” says Andrea Ganna, a geneticist at …  MIT and Harvard … . Family studies have suggested that genetics account for about 32 percent of heritability of homosexual behavior. But each …  [gene] has a very small effect on whether someone has ever had a same-sex sexual partner, the new research found."

It's completely environmental and social. Mental Illness being promoted on the front lines of society as acceptable. Thus the devil is having a field day tempting.

Full study can be found; https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6456/eaat7693

Most traits in human beings are a combination of genetic, environmental, and social factors. At the same time, there are some which are purely genetic. This is where the term 'born like this' comes from. It means that this trait is 100% genetic. It was determined before birth and neither the person themselves or their environment or the society had any say in it. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only punishes for something after the person has a choice (whether to do it or not), has knowledge (knows that this thing is haram), and has intention to do the haram act (i.e. they did it on purpose and not by accident). Otherwise there is no punishment. 

Here is another example. There are some women who naturally like playing sports. There are genetic factors to this. If you look at this group of women who gravitate toward sports, many of them have certain genetic traits. They might have higher than average baseline testosterone levels, which leads to a greater ratio of muscle to fat. This higher than average testosterone level also influences their thinking and makes them more competitive in nature, where they enjoy competition and enjoy winning. They might also have other genetic factors which predispose them to playing a certain sport, for example they might be tall so they would gravitate toward a sport like basketball where they have an advantage over the other players because of their height. 

Now these are all factors that are genetic (baseline testosterone, height, etc). There are other factors which are social and environmental which also will push a girl toward or away from competitive sports. For example, is women doing sports generally accepted in the society or not ? How does the society view women athletes ? Are there facilities available for a girl to play sports ? Are they encouraged or discouraged by their parents / family, etc ? All these factors will go in together and finally determine the likelihood that a girl will play competitive sports. When all these factors are present (genetic factors plus availability of sports facilities, and a society which encourages girls in that direction), it is much more likely that a girl will play sports and you will have alot of them that do this. At the same time, if any of those factors are not there or most of them are not there, it will be less likely that a girl will play sports. Of course, a girl playing sports isn't haram in itself (it only becomes haram if she breaks other parts of the Sharia, such as hijab, in order to do it) like being homosexual is, but I thought otherwise this is good comparison. 

At the same time, it all comes down to one major thing. Does that girl herself make the decision that she is going to play competitive sports ? She has the choice whether to do it or not. This choice is totally up to her. In the end, she determines the outcome (whether she plays sports or not). All the other things are only influences, but they do not determine whether she plays sports or not. Only she has the power to do that. 

She has the choice to play sports or not. At the same time, did she have the choice whether to be born a girl or not ? No. This was genetically determined. This was determined by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) before she was born. She didn't have any choice in that. This is the difference between genetically influenced and genetically determined. 

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16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Your argument follows logically from your premise, but your premise is wrong. Yes, if people were born homosexual then it would be unjust for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to punish someone for something they had no control over. People are not born homosexual. This is a myth that is not backed by any scientific evidence. I have posted about this many times in the past. Just to restate briefly, There have been studies done with identical twins (monozygotic) in which one is homosexual and the other isn't. If you were 'born' homosexual, then monozygotic twins are identical genetically. When they are born, they are the same. So then you would expect either both to be homosexual or neither one to be. That isn't what the studies find. So this is strong evidence against this myth that people are born homosexual

There has also been an attempt, for about 20 years now, with millions of dollars spent, to find the 'gay gene'. In other words, a single gene or a combination of genes that determine whether someone is homosexual or not. After many studies, some of which have been posted here, nothing of that kind has been found. They have found some genetic sequences that 'predispose' someone to be homosexual, meaning that they are more likely than the average person to be homosexual if they have this sequence of genes. At the same time, these sequences do not 'determine' whether someone is homosexual or not, since there are many people who have these sequences of genes and are not homosexual. There is a big difference between 'genetically determined' and 'genetically predisposed'. For example, if you have two 'X' Chromosomes, you will be female. This is genetically determined. If you have an 'X' and a 'Y' chromosome, you will be male. This is genetically determined. If you have a certain genetic sequence, your body will produce a large amount of melanin. Then you will be dark skinned. This is genetically determined. If you have another genetic sequence, your body will produce less melanin, then you will be lighter skinned, this is genetically determined. I could go on. There are many things that are genetically determined. Being homosexual is not one of them. 

I could go on and on with the evidence, but you probably get the point. To say that someone is born homosexual means being homosexual is genetically determined. There is no evidence for that. 

Hmm. Now there is an issue with this argument. Yes, There are no such thing as the "gay gene". But on that note, There is no such thing as the straight gene as well. There isn't a single gene that determines sexuality, which is what I think a lot of people here are making the mistake of. If it weren't the case, then there shouldn't be homosexuals in Islamic societies that everyone is straight in, and is socially the only thing acceptable, but they are homosexuals? It really just comes down to what preference you are into, which is what they mean by "born gay", So sexuality would technically fall under the spectrum. It, For example, would be like If 9 members of a group like Chocolate Ice cream and hates Vanilla, and one person like Vanilla Ice Cream but hates Chocolate Ice cream. It would be impossible to force the person to like Chocolate Ice Cream if he doesn't like it, but would it be alright to tell him he's not allowed to have Vanilla because it's not normal? Now reapply this to homosexuality. If most people are straight, and there's a person that is gay, how would this hold? It's where the other argument comes out, "If sexuality is a choice, then why don't you try and be gay", which they would say applies back to them.

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17 hours ago, notme said:

What? Is that what they call a Red Herring? I'm not sure about the terminology, but bringing up impossible hypotheticals is an invalid argument. 

Homosexuals can adopt or can use technology to reproduce, but that takes nothing away from heterosexuals.

No, I mean If the roles were reversed biologically, as in Allah made it in reverse.

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1 hour ago, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

No, I mean If the roles were reversed biologically, as in Allah made it in reverse.

If it were reversed it would be reversed, obviously, but I fail to see the relevance to this conversation. 

Many plant species have both male and female parts, but still require a partner to reproduce - the two plants can fertilize each other. Other plants have males and females, and others are self-fertile. Some fish and amphibians can change gender depending on environment. Humans could have been created that way, but we weren't. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

Hmm. Now there is an issue with this argument. Yes, There are no such thing as the "gay gene". But on that note, There is no such thing as the straight gene as well. There isn't a single gene that determines sexuality, which is what I think a lot of people here are making the mistake of. If it weren't the case, then there shouldn't be homosexuals in Islamic societies that everyone is straight in, and is socially the only thing acceptable, but they are homosexuals? It really just comes down to what preference you are into, which is what they mean by "born gay", So sexuality would technically fall under the spectrum. It, For example, would be like If 9 members of a group like Chocolate Ice cream and hates Vanilla, and one person like Vanilla Ice Cream but hates Chocolate Ice cream. It would be impossible to force the person to like Chocolate Ice Cream if he doesn't like it, but would it be alright to tell him he's not allowed to have Vanilla because it's not normal? Now reapply this to homosexuality. If most people are straight, and there's a person that is gay, how would this hold? It's where the other argument comes out, "If sexuality is a choice, then why don't you try and be gay", which they would say applies back to them.

You didnt read my post i guess. You OP asked the question that if people are born gay then why is homosexuality haram ? I disproved that people are born gay. So your question was answered.

If your other question is why are there homosexuals in Islamic countries that should be obvious why. Some people in those societies choose this behaviour. Just like people choose to drink alcohol, commit adultry, etc. None of these are considered ok or accepted by society. Yet because God gave us freewill we can choose this behaviour despite the fact that it isnt accepted by society. That is why

Edited by Abu Hadi
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40 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

You didnt read my post i guess. You OP asked the question that if people are born gay then why is homosexuality haram ? I disproved that people are born gay. So your question was answered.

If your other question is why are there homosexuals in Islamic countries that should be obvious why. Some people in those societies choose this behaviour. Just like people choose to drink alcohol, commit adultry, etc. None of these are considered ok or accepted by society. Yet because God gave us freewill we can choose this behaviour despite the fact that it isnt accepted by society. That is why

I don't really think you read my post. I said we all have predetermined preferences, In the same way that we prefer one would prefer vanilla over chocolate. It's a sort of preference we have that is independent of genes, however still predetermined.

Anyway, I suppose the best answer would be above, that as long as you don't act out on it, it's fine.

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Social factors that influence a person’s inclination towards homosexuality:

Sexual abuse/trauma, being heavily associated with the opposite gender at a young age, parents’ normalisation/exaggeration of sexuality in the household (I’ve seen YouTubers purposefully purchase ‘gendered’ items of clothing/toys for their child who they consider gay), societal standards, movies and TV shows promulgating to children the absurd existence of the ‘gay gene’, the list goes on and on

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On 7/30/2021 at 12:35 PM, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

e if you were told that being straight is a sin, and that you can only be homosexual. And If you can't be homosexual, then you have to remain celibate for the rest of your life." It then seems like a pretty solid argument.

So, If it's two consenting adults, and it causes no harm, do we got a moral argument against it?

Salam being born in any form or sexuality whether  being Gay or sth else is not a sin but on the other hand practicing  homosexualitywhich other people  become  witness of it or expressing   & trying for promotion it in community  is a grave sin.

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On 7/30/2021 at 12:35 PM, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

 homosexuality/naturally homosexual, then why would it be haram? 

The starting question is faulty.

You are born asexual. 

Your development is a combination of both genetics and environment.

But it goes further genes can be turned on & off based on environmental factors.

There are identical twins that do not share sexual orientation.

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On 7/30/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

With this argument, humanity will only survive for ~100 years before going extinct. Doesn't seem to me like a pretty solid argument.

That would only be the case if the entire world was gay. That's not the case.

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On 7/31/2021 at 12:39 AM, Patient Warrior said:

Agree! There is no gay gene. It's just propaganda to bend the narrative that the infallible God made them that way and religious folk should be accommodating. A literal fallacy.

Agree more, there's no such thing as being "born gay". You can become gay by being socialized in a way that makes you gay, but there has never (and will never) be a "gay gene" isolated, so no, nobody is "born that way". Homosexuality is against Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) plan for mankind. He did not design mankind to reproduce through homosexual activity. Homosexuality is fundamentally disordered behavior that people choose regardless of whether they admit it or not.

Don't get mad at me. I don't write the mail, I just deliver it.

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On 8/1/2021 at 12:52 PM, gayboyanon said:

That would only be the case if the entire world was gay. That's not the case.

Disagree. If a large proportion of society was gay, we would go extinct instantaneously. God would literally flip the Earth on us =)

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3 hours ago, dragonxx said:

If a large proportion of society was gay, we would go extinct instantaneously.

Homosexuality is en vogue in America. You can't turn on the television without seeing some trash program that glorifies the homosexual lifestyle as "fashionable" or "trendy". The media is doing it's best to convince normal Americans that the majority of people are some manner of LGBTQ+ and this simply isn't the case. Homosexuality and other "queer" lifestyles are a learned behavior and are socialized into children, it isn't something that arises naturally. Because the media is promoting "queer" lifestyles, you have more kids in America that think that they have to behave this way in order to be fashionable and "cool" in the culture, and it's having a disastrous result on the public morals of American society (not that American public morality was ever great. America is a nation built upon avarice and covetousness)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Homosexuality is en vogue in America. You can't turn on the television without seeing some trash program that glorifies the homosexual lifestyle as "fashionable" or "trendy". The media is doing it's best to convince normal Americans that the majority of people are some manner of LGBTQ+ and this simply isn't the case. Homosexuality and other "queer" lifestyles are a learned behavior and are socialized into children, it isn't something that arises naturally. Because the media is promoting "queer" lifestyles, you have more kids in America that think that they have to behave this way in order to be fashionable and "cool" in the culture, and it's having a disastrous result on the public morals of American society (not that American public morality was ever great. America is a nation built upon avarice and covetousness)

Indeed. A minority of <2% are somehow portrayed as the majority, leading to an artificial increase of up to 8% of LGBTQ+DONKEY as you put it. No wonder there is such a high suicide rate when so many are tricked into such a lifestyle and end up conflicted & regretful.

But yeah as you said, what else to expect from the morality of a nation where walking bare bottom like donkeys is the norm, and where pornography is suddenly ok when it's thrown under the label of "art" or the publicly super accessible "movie".

 

Edited by dragonxx
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3 hours ago, dragonxx said:

But yeah as you said, what else to expect from the morality of a nation where walking bare bottoms like donkeys is the norm, and where pornography is suddenly ok when it's thrown under the label of "art" or the publicly accessible "movie".

I'm remarkably consistent with my sexual ethics. I do not watch TV or movies because of the amount of soft-core pornography that generally fills them now (topless women, bare bottoms, sex scenes, etc). So for the specific person who wants to try and accuse me of being "intolerant" toward homosexuality, they're wrong. They're also wrong because I do tolerate so-called homosexuals: I allow them to commit their sins, whether publicly or private. I don't scream at them or physically attack them. I am "tolerant" because as a Catholic priest once said to me: "Tolerate means to begrudgingly put up with, not to accept". I tolerate homosexuals and homosexuality, and I keep it far from me because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said that it is reprehensible. I do not accept or celebrate homosexuality the way that American culture demands that I do, and this has gotten me banned off of social media networks in the past, just for giving Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) truths about it: it is a sin, and like any sin, it sets you on the road to hell.

I feel bad for homosexuals actually. They're being lied to by society, being told that they were "Born This Way™" and cannot change it, that it is just their "orientation". Well my "orientation" is to fornicate, but I became a new man when I embraced Islam and those sins were wiped away by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because he is the most forgiving and the most merciful. Do I still sin? Of course I do, in different ways. I don't believe that anyone doesn't because we aren't perfect. We aren't the Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) and we don't have that quality that he had, so we're still going to sin any time that we aren't putting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) first in our lives. The difference now is that I do my best to remain conscious of my behavior, thoughts, and actions and to make dua for forgiveness when I realize that I have sinned, and I believe wholeheartedly that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives me, because that's his nature.

As far as "art" goes, I am consistent in that as well. I don't like when images of Jesus (عليه السلام) or other things that are sacred to Christians are denigrated or perverted, and this is because I want to live in a society that places religion first in terms of it's values. Whether that's an Islamic or a (truly) Christian nation, wherever I live is where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants me to be because if he didn't, I wouldn't be living in that society. His plans are better than my plans, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the best of planners. Unfortunately, America isn't a Christian society other than the fact that the majority of people here are "cultural Christians"-- they claim to be Christians but are still materialistic and greedy, consumed with lusts of the flesh, wrathful, and proud. I don't have any hope for America becoming a Muslim nation, but if the people of America actually experienced some sort of revival and began taking their Christianity seriously moreso than just "culturally", I think it would be a good start.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/30/2021 at 1:35 PM, Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki said:

A commonly question is, if your born with homosexuality/naturally homosexual, then why would it be haram?

I bounce back and forth on this issue...I understand your mode of argumentation and your logic is pretty airtight...I think most Muslims are socially engineered to answer this question in a traditional manner without giving it the in-depth reflection that it duly deserves...likewise, I believe the majority of Westernized Muslims have been programmed to mindlessly regurgitate the cultural values they have learned from their college professor without much resistance...both camps should be aware of their own prejudices and attempt to evaluate the evidence impartially...my stance on this issue is straddling the fence somewhere between your opinion and brother Abu Hadi's...if Allah indeed created certain people gay, bisexual etc. then I believe that would be their normal (just as being straight is our normal) and they will be judged differently on Judgement Day than the rest of us...when we study nature we find general laws that are applicable across the board...but then we come across biological anomalies or genetic exceptions to those very same rules...to the untrained eye, when we initially observe nature we anticipate a certain consistency...through close examination (however) we soon learn that the persisting deviation occasionally departs (sometimes radically) from the expected outcome or value...so for example, if ninety-nine sheep are white then we should assume that the hundredth one will have a black fleece...if ninety-six percent of children are born completely healthy then the four percent should be born with some type of impairment or disability and so on....having said all that, it's simultaneously true that there is no conclusive scientific proof that a gay gene in fact exists...leading researchers in the field from prestigious American and European universities freely admit this.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)

@Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki, I have a question for you. If an adult male was born with genetic or innate sexual feelings toward young boys...would you be in favor of this sexual union? Please explain (logically and consistently) why or why not

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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The other thing I don't understand, is why LMNOP+ are still claiming that they don't have "equal rights" in America. They're allowed to enter into so-called "same sex marriages" and are a protected class, so I really don't see what rights they allegedly don't have.

I think that when they say that they want "equal rights", what they really mean is that they want special, unique rights. Such as the right to stifle criticism from religious people as "hate speech" & they also want their lifestyles to be enshrined in the culture the way that normal sexual proclivities are. They also want the "right" to indoctrinate your children and recruit them into their alternative lifestyles; and think that you as the God-fearing parent should not be able to guide your children in terms of what's halal & haram.

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As for gay legal marriage, I think it's none of the secular government's business who is married to who. Marriage in general should not be regulated, so long as it's non-coercive and between consenting adults. If my husband wants to take four wives or if my lesbian neighbor wants to marry her girlfriend, why is that any concern of a secular government? 

It's clearly forbidden for Muslims to engage in homosexual acts. 

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Agreed 100% that homosexuality is haraam, there is a question that needs to be posed, we were all created from a single soul, what sex was that soul or what sex is our soul? this topic is very complicated and there are people out there who cry themselves to sleep each night because they can't understand why they feel the way they do.. I used to be quite harsh against homosexuals until I spent time talking to a Maulana who had dealt with many cases,, that made me at least appreciate how complicated this all is..

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I think that government should get out of marriage entirely. It should be strictly a religious ceremony.

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2 hours ago, pseudonym said:

we were all created from a single soul, what sex was that soul or what sex is our soul?

Does soul have gender? 

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18 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

..would you be in favor of this sexual union? Please explain (logically and consistently) why or why not

@Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki, if you're in favor of adult males and male minors interacting sexually—then do you make a distinction between consenting young males and non-consenting young males? 

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22 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

we come across biological anomalies or genetic exceptions to those very same rules

Perhaps this is why Imam Khomeini (r) granted certain homosexuals the right to sex reassignment surgery 

On 7/30/2021 at 1:13 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

With this argument, humanity will only survive for ~100 years before going extinct. Doesn't seem to me like a pretty solid argument.

This is correct if homosexuality is practiced universally for a long duration—the human species will eventually go extinct—according to the latest statistics 4-5% of people in the US identify as LBGTQIA—that's up from 2-3% in 2010—according to statistics I remember looking up in 2010, approximately 1/3 of Hollywood executives, actors, producers, directors, writers etc. identified as gay, bisexual or lesbian and I think those figures are underexaggerated—I think it's closer to 50%—you can easily see LBGT agenda popularized in pop culture, film, magazines etc.—there's an obvious Zionist influence in Hollywood but there's also an open gay influence—in the 70's and 80's it was more subtle but within the last 10 - 20 years it's become increasingly more overt. 

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21 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

..if Allah indeed created certain people gay, bisexual etc. 

You stated "if".  Why entertain this hypothetical. Let's looks at the evidence and make a judgement on whether some one is born gay.

Otherwise we can hypothetically ask questions about anything.

If you are born to love pork.

If you are born to enjoy killing 

No Dr or scientist on earth will say sexuality is purely genetic. It depends on environmental factors as well.

(If I'm wrong please prove it.)

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18 hours ago, notme said:

Does soul have gender? 

My point exactly, the soul surely is neither masculine or feminine, which creates a much more complicated debate about this all, ultimately we must observe the law of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but let's realise there are 'some' that have homosexual feelings and they are suffering,, it's not like those people who just want to experiment etc.. no time for that from an Islamic perspective... but let's at least appreciate this is something beyond a simple born gay or straight debate....  

Surah Nur verse 31 is to be pondered over..... 

[24.31] And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

Also look into the fact that Ulema allow open discussions about gender and even approve some sex changes....

Certainly don't have the answers but know for sure that I now think differently rather than my original very harsh anti gay attitude I grew up with.....

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On 8/25/2021 at 2:26 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

@Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki, I have a question for you. If an adult male was born with genetic or innate sexual feelings toward young boys...would you be in favor of this sexual union? Please explain (logically and consistently) why or why not

I would be completely against it. Because the boy is not a consenting adult.

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