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In the Name of God بسم الله

Doubt - part 2

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Guest Confused According to shi

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According to shia Imam Hassan knew that his wife will poison him as he had knowledge of unknown yet he married her and drank the poisoned drink. Isn't that suicide??

Edited by Mahdavist
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  • The title was changed to Doubt - part 2
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As mentioned in your first thread, the complete knowledge of the unseen is only with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), out of which He grants what He wishes to whom He wishes.

As far as I am aware , we don't have any basis for suggesting that the Imam (عليه السلام) knew he was drinking poison. 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

As mentioned in your first thread, the complete knowledge of the unseen is only with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), out of which He grants what He wishes to whom He wishes.

As far as I am aware , we don't have any basis for suggesting that the Imam (عليه السلام) knew he was drinking poison. 

 

It would seem we have many, perhaps tens of narrations, that contain content which support the belief that the Imams (عليه السلام) know the time of their death.

In fact there is an entire chapter in Al-Kafi about this very belief.

23 hours ago, Guest Confused According to shi said:

According to shia Imam Hassan knew that his wife will poison him as he had knowledge of unknown yet he married her and drank the poisoned drink. Isn't that suicide??

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) specifically commands someone to do something, or allows them or gives them the choice to do something specifically concerning them, then it isn't haram for them, regardless of what the general ruling is. 

We believe that the Prophets (عليه السلام) and the Imams (عليه السلام) have laws and processes that only apply to them, so there can and will be a difference between them and the rest of the people in many things.

For example, prostrating to anyone other then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is a major sin, but the Angels were told to prostrate to Adam (عليه السلام), and if they refused they would have been sinners, just like Iblees (la).

Similarly, Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) killed the boy before he even committed a sin, which would be haram in normal circumstances, and it would be haram to do for the average person, but he was allowed to kill that boy based on a special hukm that applied to him as a result of the special knowledge given to him by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which made him different to the rest of the people.

I will however say that the narrations on this particular topic have many different angles, with some suggesting that the Imams (عليه السلام) are given a choice on their death, and other narrations saying that when the time of death comes, the Imam (عليه السلام) is made to forget the way in which he is martyred, so that the process of death can be complete.

In any case, there is no issue with this Islamically, as long as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made a special hukm for them, just as he did the Angels and Khidr (عليه السلام).

Edited by Sumerian
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“Indeed, Allah [alone] has knowledge of the Hour and sends down the rain and knows what is in the wombs. And no soul perceives what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul perceives in what land it will die. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.” (Quran, 31:34)

As you can see from the verse above. We do not know even what land we will die in let alone the time and how.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

As you can see from the verse above. We do not know even what land we will die in let alone the time and how.

There is a difference, infact big difference. As mentioned in this verses:

وَإِلَى رَبِّكَ فَارْغَبْ

94:8 

And

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ 

ارْجِعِي إِلَى رَبِّكِ رَاضِيَةً مَّرْضِيَّةً

89:27-28

Infact Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did mentioned the companions that soon he will be leaving this world and then he uttered the hadith e thaqalayn:

اني تارك فيكم الثقلين كتاب الله و عترتي اهل بيتي

When we talk about the hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon His creation, specifically the bearers of wilayat al takwiniyyah, we cannot apply the same rules to them. Because for us, these are the sahiban e amr, angels descend on them with every amr, and every amr is inclusive of their own death. 

Edited by Cool
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These questions of "why did X become friends or marry with Y if he knew they were going to be evil/kill them ?" is like asking "why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) create Iblis if he knew he was going to be evil ?".

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23 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

These questions of "why did X become friends or marry with Y if he knew they were going to be evil/kill them ?" is like asking "why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) create Iblis if he knew he was going to be evil ?".

You can't compare the action of creation to action of Allah. 

Human are given portions of knowledge through learning or in case of Prophets revelation. But are also bound by laws both physical and Sharia.

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@Cool 

The brother is not asking about the Prophet or revelation.

I'm explaining things from a Zaidi perspective that Imam Hassan did not have knowledge of the unseen  other than what was passed to him from the Prophet. 

You are explaining to the OP from a perspective of 12,er how Imams had knowledge to the level of knowing when where and how they would die. And the narrative of knowing you are about to drink deadly poison.

Focus on answering that question for the OP.

We can discuss our own difference (12er Vs Zaidi) about ilm ghayb in another thread.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235071712-zaydi-twelver-debate-3/

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On 7/28/2021 at 12:58 PM, Guest Confused According to shi said:

According to shia Imam Hassan knew that his wife will poison him as he had knowledge of unknown yet he married her and drank the poisoned drink. Isn't that suicide??

From Nahjaul balagah :

One of his companions said to him: O Amir al-mu'minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu'minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb:

O brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (‘ilmu'l-ghayb), 3 these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse:

“Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour; He sends down the rain, and He knows what is in the wombs. No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die..” (Qur'an, 31:34)

Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it.

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On 7/28/2021 at 10:28 PM, Guest Confused According to shi said:

According to shia Imam Hassan knew that his wife will poison him as he had knowledge of unknown yet he married her and drank the poisoned drink. Isn't that suicide??

Salam Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) has been poisoned  many times by order of cursed Muawiah  (la) before poisoning  by his wife but when has been poisoned  by his wife he said that I won't survive from poisoning  this time .

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Posted (edited)
On 7/28/2021 at 8:58 PM, Guest Confused According to shi said:

According to shia Imam Hassan knew that his wife will poison him as he had knowledge of unknown yet he married her and drank the poisoned drink. Isn't that suicide??

Knowing about how someone is going to die does not mean that they know the actual time and place of death. Every actions of Imams (عليه السلام) are guided with utmost knowledge so they will only choose the right choice that goes according the laws of God. 

Suicide people intention is that they want to end their life, so they try act to end their life. Imams (عليه السلام) and believers have no such an intention and nor such an actions. They trust God and they follow and act to what is best and loved by God, even if it could lose their own life.

Say, "Indeed, my prayer, my rites of sacrifice, my living and my dying are for Allah, Lord of the worlds. 6:162

Edited by Abu Nur
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just as an FYI

Quote
فَلَمَّا بَلَغَ مَعَهُ السَّعْيَ قَالَ يَا بُنَيَّ إِنِّي أَرَىٰ فِي الْمَنَامِ أَنِّي أَذْبَحُكَ فَانْظُرْ مَاذَا تَرَىٰ ۚ قَالَ يَا أَبَتِ افْعَلْ مَا تُؤْمَرُ ۖ سَتَجِدُنِي إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ مِنَ الصَّابِرِينَ {102}

[Shakir 37:102] And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.
[Pickthal 37:102] And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast.
[Yusufali 37:102] Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

If we try to use our limited Intellect to Judge instead to learning, we will be ruined. Also see story of Prophet Musa(as)/Khidr.  (Quran 18:80-82). 

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A related quote from the book Polarization Around the Character of Imam Ali, by Martyr Murtadha Mutahhari

Quote

‘Abdu ‘r-Rahman ibn Muljam was one of the most adamant enemies of ‘Ali, and ‘Ali understood well that this man was a very dangerous opponent. Sometimes, even, others would say to him that he was a dangerous man, and that he should get rid of him. But ‘Ali asked in reply, "Should I punish before the crime? If he is my murderer, I cannot kill my own murderer: he is to murder me, not I him." It was about this person that ‘Ali said: I want him to live; he wants to kill me.’ (i.e., "I have love for him, but he is my enemy and has malevolent designs against me.")

https://www.al-islam.org/polarization-around-character-ali-ibn-abi-talib-murtadha-mutahhari/introduction#2-people-who-attract-do-not-repel

Sometimes you can not act based upon the knowledge of the unseen. Because Khidr got a revelation and Prophet Moses was ordered to obey him is a different matter. We don't get revelations that we must obey whatever our leaders do. So they are bound to the sharia of Islam. And they don't go against it. Otherwise what would be the difference between us shia Muslims and that of let's say Ottoman lovers today who defend the Ottoman Sultans killing their own uncles, sons, baby brothers in cradles, nephews, son in laws etc. to protect their thrones?

The matter of Moses and Khidr is irrelevant. That was a special occasion for Allah wanted to teach Moses.

But, our belief that Aimmah and Awliya might get inspired does not mean their inspirations are about going against the sharia. No, on the contrary, they are about to fulfil sharia.

That's why in the above mentioned hadith; Imam Ali is stated to know Ibn Muljam will kill him. And the shia of Imam Ali warn him about the threat and tells him to get rid of (kill) him. But Imam Ali says "you can not punish the criminal before the crime, otherwise you would be the criminal and not him".

So, yes, it is possible that Aimmah and Awliya may know the unseen (that which Allah reveals to them in their dreams or else) but they are still bound by the sharia.

Second and more important point is that; some knowledge of the unseen is not revealed clearly. And this has a philosophy. For instance let's analyze the DOGS of HAWA'B Narration where the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tells his wives that one of them will be rebellious and she will lead a fitnah and cause harm to the entire ummah. But the Holy Prophet says "I wish I knew which one of you the dogs of hawa'b will bark at". So you see, if Allah had revealed which one, and then the Holy Prophet would have had to dislike or even divorce her but before the rebellion happened. So he is not taught which one. Also, then Lady Aisha would have said: "Oh. So I am destined to do so. Then be it." So you see, the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gets the knowledge of the unseen but not entirely so that the life still be a test for the believers.

Same goes for the story of Prophet Yaqoub and Yusuf (عليه السلام)  Prophet Yaqoub is not aware Prophet Yusuf is in a well nearby but he gets the knowledge of the unseen and smells the shirt of Yusuf miles away when the time comes.

So, the Prophets and Aimmah and Awliyah might get the knowledge of the unseen (revelations, inspirations, dreams etc.) but this knowledge is not given them in a way to abolish that this life is a test.

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On 7/28/2021 at 12:58 PM, Guest Confused According to shi said:

According to shia Imam Hassan knew that his wife will poison him as he had knowledge of unknown yet he married her and drank the poisoned drink. Isn't that suicide??

Allah knew Hz. Adam (عليه السلام) would eat the forbidden fruit and yet he put the tree there and the fruit accessible. Why?

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I think this narration is completely wrong. If Imam Hassan AS knew that the drink was poisoned he will never drink it. If he did knew that the woman is poisoning me and he took the poison voluntarily then it's completely unreasonable. Martyrdom is not putting a sword in your chest when your enemy tells you and give you the weapon.

 

Hassan bin Ali AS is completely free from such acts. 

He was poisoned unknowingly by Banu umaiya. If he knew their plot of assassination he would have never made their scheme easy by drinking it.

 

 

 

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