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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Imam Ali (as) claim that god appointed him as the Khalifa?

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It would suffice if you provide me with trustwothy written proof from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) himself, as you already know Imam Ali (عليه السلام) use to write down his thouhgts and reflection in letters etc. 

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14 minutes ago, Nano said:

It would suffice if you provide me with trustwothy written proof from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) himself, as you already know Imam Ali (عليه السلام) use to write down his thouhgts and reflection in letters etc. 

Salam!!

In Islam, we are bound to obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle and their commands. 

So the proof you are seeking, must be either from Quran or from Hadith or from both. 

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Salam,

There are no quranic verse witch explicit state that Imam Ali is the khalifa. Do you have hadith from Imam Ali himself? I am wondering bacause Imam Ali himself accepted the other Khalifa (abu bakr, umar, othman) even if its only because he didnt want to create divisions in islam wich is in itself strange because he knew what would happen in karbala and that Islam will be devided into sects. 

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Salaam,

As brother @Mahdavist mentionned, the sermon of Shiqshiqiyyah clearly shows that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that : "my position in relation to it (the caliphate) was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill." and "I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself."

Also in sermon 172 (during the Consultative Committee, after the death of the 2nd caliph) he says:  Someone said to me, "O' son of Abi Talib, you are eager for the caliphate." Then I told him: "Rather, you are, by Allah, more greedy, although more remote, while I am more suited as well as nearer. I have demanded it as my right, while you are intervening between me and it, and you are turning my face from it."

5 hours ago, Nano said:

There are no quranic verse witch explicit state that Imam Ali is the khalifa.

That's curious, I also don't see any explicit Qur'anic verse where the numbers of rak'as are mentionned, yet it's universally accepted that it's 2, 4, 4, 3 and 4. I wonder where we got those numbers from... Oh, that's right, from the hadiths ! Likewise, the hadiths tell us that certain Qur'anic verses state the Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should be obeyed, and the famous verse: الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَ‌ضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا is a reference to Ghadeer, where the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) announced that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the mawla of every Muslim, so every Muslim should obey him after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passes away.

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3 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Salaam,

As brother @Mahdavist mentionned, the sermon of Shiqshiqiyyah clearly shows that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that : "my position in relation to it (the caliphate) was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill." and "I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself."

Also in sermon 172 (during the Consultative Committee, after the death of the 2nd caliph) he says:  Someone said to me, "O' son of Abi Talib, you are eager for the caliphate." Then I told him: "Rather, you are, by Allah, more greedy, although more remote, while I am more suited as well as nearer. I have demanded it as my right, while you are intervening between me and it, and you are turning my face from it."

That's curious, I also don't see any explicit Qur'anic verse where the numbers of rak'as are mentionned, yet it's universally accepted that it's 2, 4, 4, 3 and 4. I wonder where we got those numbers from... Oh, that's right, from the hadiths ! Likewise, the hadiths tell us that certain Qur'anic verses state the Imam Ali (عليه السلام) should be obeyed, and the famous verse: الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَ‌ضِيتُ لَكُمُ الْإِسْلَامَ دِينًا is a reference to Ghadeer, where the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) announced that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the mawla of every Muslim, so every Muslim should obey him after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passes away.

Curiously the salah and all its details from sunnah.

The question is when did Ali ra say it HIMSELF!!!

I’ve realised this question as well as any evidence of clear divine Imamate from Quran is a never straight forward answereable question instead look at the reply by a brother above……..instead of using the Quran as criterion he uses an ambiguous hadith and is trying his best to correlate it with a Quranic verse.

This is why our shia brothers have a hard time debating a Sunni.

Honestly you need to overcome this if you are gonna stand up to answering questions relating to divine leadership.

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3 hours ago, Guest Shadey said:

I’ve realised this question as well as any evidence of clear divine Imamate from Quran is a never straight forward answereable question

For us, the Qur'an and the sunnah are the reference. If the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says I leave behind the Quran and the Ahlulbayt, then we follow them, we don't ask why there isn't a surah about it or why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn't write it in a letter.

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Posted (edited)

Ehm... okay, what ? I just quoted a verse from the Qur'an, and it's tafseer indicates that it was revealed after Ghadeer khum, where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was announced as the mawla of every single Muslim. You also have 4:59 and 5:55, which according to our tafseer also makes reference to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). If what you want is the name of Ali mentionned in the Qur'an, you obviously won't find it, the same way you won't find the name of Abu Bakr being mentionned as the companion of the cave, yet everyone agrees it was him.

I've also quoted the from Nahjul Balagha, where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) clearly stated that the caliphate was his right and that it was usurped from him.

We Shias actually have a very easy time debating with our Sunni brothers, since our view is proven in your works. In fact, I would be very interested if you can show me in the Qur'an where it says unambiguously that Abu Bakr had the right or was chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to become the caliph, as well as Umar and Uthman. But since you seem like a curious person who wishes to learn more about this subject, let's see what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) thought about the first 2 caliphs in your books:

Source: https://sunnah.com/muslim:1757c

وَحَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَسْمَاءَ الضُّبَعِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا جُوَيْرِيَةُ، عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، أَنَّ مَالِكَ بْنَ أَوْسٍ، حَدَّثَهُ قَالَ أَرْسَلَ إِلَىَّ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ فَجِئْتُهُ حِينَ تَعَالَى النَّهَارُ - قَالَ - فَوَجَدْتُهُ فِي بَيْتِهِ جَالِسًا عَلَى سَرِيرٍ مُفْضِيًا إِلَى رِمَالِهِ مُتَّكِئًا عَلَى وِسَادَةٍ مِنْ أَدَمٍ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لِي يَا مَالُ إِنَّهُ قَدْ دَفَّ أَهْلُ أَبْيَاتٍ مِنْ قَوْمِكَ وَقَدْ أَمَرْتُ فِيهِمْ بِرَضْخٍ فَخُذْهُ فَاقْسِمْهُ بَيْنَهُمْ - قَالَ - قُلْتُ لَوْ أَمَرْتَ بِهَذَا غَيْرِي قَالَ خُذْهُ يَا مَالُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَجَاءَ يَرْفَا فَقَالَ هَلْ لَكَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فِي عُثْمَانَ وَعَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَوْفٍ وَالزُّبَيْرِ وَسَعْدٍ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ فَأَذِنَ لَهُمْ فَدَخَلُوا ثُمَّ جَاءَ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ هَلْ لَكَ فِي عَبَّاسٍ وَعَلِيٍّ قَالَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ فَأَذِنَ لَهُمَا فَقَالَ عَبَّاسٌ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْضِ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَ هَذَا الْكَاذِبِ الآثِمِ الْغَادِرِ الْخَائِنِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ الْقَوْمُ أَجَلْ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَاقْضِ بَيْنَهُمْ وَأَرِحْهُمْ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ مَالِكُ بْنُ أَوْسٍ يُخَيَّلُ إِلَىَّ أَنَّهُمْ قَدْ كَانُوا قَدَّمُوهُمْ لِذَلِكَ - فَقَالَ عُمَرُ اتَّئِدَا أَنْشُدُكُمْ بِاللَّهِ الَّذِي بِإِذْنِهِ تَقُومُ السَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ أَتَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا نَعَمْ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ أَقْبَلَ عَلَى الْعَبَّاسِ وَعَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ أَنْشُدُكُمَا بِاللَّهِ الَّذِي بِإِذْنِهِ تَقُومُ السَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ أَتَعْلَمَانِ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَاهُ صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ جَلَّ وَعَزَّ كَانَ خَصَّ رَسُولَهُ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِخَاصَّةٍ لَمْ يُخَصِّصْ بِهَا أَحَدًا غَيْرَهُ قَالَ ‏{‏ مَا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَى فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ‏}‏ مَا أَدْرِي هَلْ قَرَأَ الآيَةَ الَّتِي قَبْلَهَا أَمْ لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَسَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَيْنَكُمْ أَمْوَالَ بَنِي النَّضِيرِ فَوَاللَّهِ مَا اسْتَأْثَرَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلاَ أَخَذَهَا دُونَكُمْ حَتَّى بَقِيَ هَذَا الْمَالُ فَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَأْخُذُ مِنْهُ نَفَقَةَ سَنَةٍ ثُمَّ يَجْعَلُ مَا بَقِيَ أُسْوَةَ الْمَالِ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ أَنْشُدُكُمْ بِاللَّهِ الَّذِي بِإِذْنِهِ تَقُومُ السَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ أَتَعْلَمُونَ ذَلِكَ قَالُوا نَعَمْ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ نَشَدَ عَبَّاسًا وَعَلِيًّا بِمِثْلِ مَا نَشَدَ بِهِ الْقَوْمَ أَتَعْلَمَانِ ذَلِكَ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَلَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ أَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَجِئْتُمَا تَطْلُبُ مِيرَاثَكَ مِنَ ابْنِ أَخِيكَ وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ مَا نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ ثُمَّ تُوُفِّيَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَوَلِيُّ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنِّي لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ فَوَلِيتُهَا ثُمَّ جِئْتَنِي أَنْتَ وَهَذَا وَأَنْتُمَا جَمِيعٌ وَأَمْرُكُمَا وَاحِدٌ فَقُلْتُمَا ادْفَعْهَا إِلَيْنَا فَقُلْتُ إِنْ شِئْتُمْ دَفَعْتُهَا إِلَيْكُمَا عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَيْكُمَا عَهْدَ اللَّهِ أَنْ تَعْمَلاَ فِيهَا بِالَّذِي كَانَ يَعْمَلُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَخَذْتُمَاهَا بِذَلِكَ قَالَ أَكَذَلِكَ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ ثُمَّ جِئْتُمَانِي لأَقْضِيَ بَيْنَكُمَا وَلاَ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَقْضِي بَيْنَكُمَا بِغَيْرِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ فَإِنْ عَجَزْتُمَا عَنْهَا فَرُدَّاهَا إِلَىَّ ‏.‏

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

Wow, is this straight forward enough ? It seems that Ali and Abbas didn't have such positive views about the first 2 caliphs. If they believed that the Shaikhayn weren't worthy of the caliphate and were illegitimate, then please tell me who was supposed to be the caliph ?

If you have a problem with the hadith I quoted, then you have either 3 options to choose from:

1- Ali and Abbas lied and were wrong in insulting the Shaykhayn.

2- The Shaykhayn lied and were "sinful, treacherous and dishonest".

3- Muslim lied by fabricating this hadith, making him extremely unreliable and must not be trusted.

I'd like to see which one you'll pick.

When Sahih Muslim says that the Shaykhayn say that they were the "wali" of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), then it's clear for you that they were supposed to be the caliphs. But when the same Sahih Muslim says that the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) HIMSELF said that Ali (عليه السلام) is the mawla of every Muslim, then nooo, that doesn't mean anything. You're asking where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he was appointed as the caliph. Bro, the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that he was the caliph, what more proof do you need ?

I already gave you proof from the Qur'an that for us is more than enough proof that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the rightful caliph.

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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Its possible that imam Ali (3s) was most suited for the caliphate and the profet wanted him to be the caliph based on hadith and implicit quranic verse.

I do not belive that abu bakr, umar or othman where more suited for the caliphate based on what i have read about them. This is not my argument.

My question is why Imam Ali himself didnt claim that he was the imam and first caliph and that god will choose 12 imam from the family of the prophet. The claim that there will be 12 imam from the family of the profet and Imam Ali is the first Imam and the first caliph could also be a post construction in order to fit a political agenda. My main goal is to seek the truth. 

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Imamat of Ali (ع) and History

The dispute of whether Mawla (مولا) means Ally or Master is more than a 10 centuries old dispute between the followers of Imam Ali (ع) and the followers of the Khulafa. This has fractured the very core of this Ummah until today.

Some amongst our opponents have tried to use historical evidences against us the Shi’a with little success.

The question of whether Imam Ali bin Abi Talib (افضل السلام) did claim divine Imamah openly and consistently during his lifetime is more important than the proofs in the Traditions.

Was this claim known to the Sahaba and people is crucial.

One needs to look at the event of Shura as narrated in the reputable Tarikh Al-Tabri to see how much of truth has been veiled by our opponents.

Sayedna Ammar bin Yasir (رض) a great Sahabi of the Messenger (ص) said:
…فأني تصرفون هذا الأمر عن أهل بيت نبيكم!
For how long will you keep this affair (Khilafat) away from Ahl Al-Bayt!

This clearly exposes the conspiracy to keep Imamat of Khilafat away from the Ahl Al-Bayt.

Sayedna Miqdad (رض) the great Sahabi said :
ما رأت مثل ما أوتى إلى أهل هذا البيت بعد نبيهم إني الأعجب من قريش أنهم تركوا رجلا ما أقول إن أحدًا أعلم ولا أقضى منه بالعدل، أما والله لو أجد عليه أعوانا
I have not seen anything in likeness to what has befallen to the member of this Household after their Prophet (passing)!

I am surprised with the Quraysh who had abandoned a man for whom I could not say one is more knowledgeable or more judicious then him.
By Allah if I could find supporters (to establish his Imamat)

Imam Ali bin Abi Talib (ع) himself stated openly:
الحمد لله الذي بعث محمدا منا نبيا و بعثه إلينا رسولا فنحن بيت النبوة و معدن الحكمة و أمان أهل الأرض و نجاة لمن طلب لنا حق..
All praise to Allah who sent Muhammad (Sayedna) from us the Prophet and sent upon us a Messenger and we are the House of Prophethood and treasure of wisdom and safety for the inhabitants of earth and salvation for those who seek (us) and this (Khilafat) is our right.

And when Imam Ali (ع) was not selected in the Shura instead Uthman was selected. This was his words:
ليس هذا اول يوم تظاهرتم فيه علينا
This is not the first day you all have conspired over us!

Referring to how Imamat or Khilafat was usurped by the people of Saqifah.

An honest person who researched into this matter by consulting the books of history will be able to achieve certainty on this issue without the need to look into the books of Ahadith.

اللهم صلى على محمد و آل محمد

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2 hours ago, Nano said:

My question is why Imam Ali himself didnt claim that he was the imam and first caliph and that god will choose 12 imam from the family of the prophet. The claim that there will be 12 imam from the family of the profet and Imam Ali is the first Imam and the first caliph could also be a post construction in order to fit a political agenda. My main goal is to seek the truth. 

Imam Ali claimed his right and the right for the Ahlulbayt. As posted by brothers.

He didn't claim anything about 12 Imams because the Prophet did not claim this. Imamat is not restricted to only 12 of Ahlulbayt.

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6 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The dispute of whether Mawla (مولا) means Ally or Master is more than a 10 centuries old dispute between the followers of Imam Ali (ع) and the followers of the Khulafa. This has fractured the very core of this Ummah until today.

It's more absurd to me that people believe the Prophet gathered all the chief Arabs so that he could tell them Ali was his friend. :hahaha:

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1 hour ago, Patient Warrior said:

It's more absurd to me that people believe the Prophet gathered all the chief Arabs so that he could tell them Ali was his friend. :hahaha:

Hassan b. Farhan Al-Maliki notes that this argument was first used by Ibn Taymiyyah (born 661 A.H)! 

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17 hours ago, Nano said:

There are no quranic verse witch explicit state that Imam Ali is the khalifa.

There infact are many verses. If you want something like that "O you believers!! From now your caliph is Ali" obviously that's not the way Quran address. So how that is mentioned in Quran? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) revealed to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after the last hajj, the verse:

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

5:67) 

And the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) immediately halted the crowd at Ghadir e Khum, he called back those who went forward and waited for those who remained behind. Then he delivered the famous sermon of Ghadir in which he clearly said:

من كنت مولا مهذا علي مولا

After finishing the sermon God revealed another verse:

 الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسْلاَمَ دِينًا

5:3

How can one say that religion is perfected & blessings become completed if Islam doesn't mention the successor of Prophet? Or Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself never nominated someone as his wasi? 

While the Quran do mention the "Ulil Amr". So how is it possible that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left the world without mentioning who the "Ulil Amr" is? 

And I can quote many verses which points towards the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but you need to see the verses in light of ahadith and historical records.

8 hours ago, Nano said:

My question is why Imam Ali himself didnt claim that he was the imam and first caliph and that god will choose 12 imam from the family of the prophet.

Have you ever tried to figure out why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refused to pledge allegiance to the first caliph? Why the first caliph forced Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for pledging allegiance to him? to the effect that the house of Ali (عليه السلام) being attacked and its door was burned. 

So why Ali (عليه السلام) was not pledging allegiance? You need to figure it out. 

Secondly, when the people started disobeying the commands of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in the end times of his life, for instance, the case of jesh e Usama, the case of qirtas etc. And have preferred to gather at saqifah for getting the power instead of taking part in the burial of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and have ignored the command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which he mentioned in Ghadir, what benefit you think Ali (عليه السلام) could achieve in clearly "taking the stand" that I am the caliph nominated by God & His Apostle? 

The words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are preserved in history, what he said to Abu Bakr and what he said in shaqshaqqiya are very famous.

They all are those who knew very well that Ali (عليه السلام) is the nominated successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They did what they did and will cut what they have sowed. 

To us, the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) us clear and have no doubt about it Alhamdulillah. 

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18 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

For us, the Qur'an and the sunnah are the reference. If the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) says I leave behind the Quran and the Ahlulbayt, then we follow them, we don't ask why there isn't a surah about it or why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn't write it in a letter.

Circular argument at best. This is your special forte.

How can you use Quran as reference when the main article of faith is not clearly defined??……..obviously you will then use a weak hadith like following ahlubaith as the MAIN reference and you will then try to correlate it with a verse from Quran.

So I am right you do take from weak hadith and impose it on Quran………unless there is a clear verse then you don’t need hadith.

simple logic brother.

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On 7/28/2021 at 8:29 PM, Patient Warrior said:

It's more absurd to me that people believe the Prophet gathered all the chief Arabs so that he could tell them Ali was his friend. :hahaha:

Too right. Not just getting them together but at high-noon after a long hajj program, pulling them from all directions and then keeping everyone for 3 days to congratulate their new buddy Big'Al for becoming their buddy.

#SunniLogic

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On 7/29/2021 at 12:03 PM, Guest Shadey said:

Circular argument at best. This is your special forte.

How can you use Quran as reference when the main article of faith is not clearly defined??……..obviously you will then use a weak hadith like following ahlubaith as the MAIN reference and you will then try to correlate it with a verse from Quran.

So I am right you do take from weak hadith and impose it on Quran………unless there is a clear verse then you don’t need hadith.

simple logic brother.

You seem to have misunderstood.

The Qur'an repeatedly instructs us to obey the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). The prophet has stated that he leaves behind the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

Therefore, rejecting the prophets instructions and saying 'we want to see it in the Qur'an' is itself a baseless position, because the Qur'an has commanded us to follow his ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) instructions rather than to reject them. 

I'm not sure who informed you that hadith al thaqalayn is a weak narration. It is a mutawatir narration, both in your sources as well as ours. 

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On 7/28/2021 at 10:31 AM, Nano said:

Salam,

There are no quranic verse witch explicit state that Imam Ali is the khalifa. Do you have hadith from Imam Ali himself? I am wondering bacause Imam Ali himself accepted the other Khalifa (abu bakr, umar, othman) even if its only because he didnt want to create divisions in islam wich is in itself strange because he knew what would happen in karbala and that Islam will be devided into sects

The part that i highlighted is incorrect understanding of yours. Division had already had occurred , when Abu bakr illegitimately became the Caliph.

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