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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are we in hell in this very moment?

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:salam:

I am watching Br. Khalil Jaffer’s  “The Origin and the Return” series in which he says these verses show we’re in hell or heaven in this very moment (though it is manifested at death). Is there any weight to this linguistically? What does it mean to be in a state of hell.

Surah 9, Verse 49:

Quote
وَمِنهُم مَن يَقولُ ائذَن لي وَلا تَفتِنّي ۚ أَلا فِي الفِتنَةِ سَقَطوا ۗ وَإِنَّ جَهَنَّمَ لَمُحيطَةٌ بِالكافِرينَ

TRANSLATION

Among them there are some who say, ‘Give me leave, and do not put me to temptation.’1 Look! They have already fallen into temptation2 and indeed hell besieges the faithless. 
  • Or ‘do not push me into sinfulness (or unfaith),’ or ‘do not put me in a predicament.’ Cf. Ṭabarī and Ṭūsī.
  • Or ‘sinfulness (or unfaith),’ or ‘a predicament,’ based on how the word ‘fitnah’ is interpreted in the preceding sentence.

Surah 102, Verse 5-6

Quote
كَلّا لَو تَعلَمونَ عِلمَ اليَقينِ

TRANSLATION

No indeed! Were you to know with certain knowledge,

 
لَتَرَوُنَّ الجَحيمَ

TRANSLATION

you would surely see hell.

 

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The way it’s been explained to me is that to Allah and even in the afterlife there is no concept of time. Allah is infinite, so technically right now we are either in heaven or hell. 
 

We are creating our hell and heaven with our sins but we are also living in it. It is Allahs mercy that is keeping us away from experiencing hellfire at this moment.

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4 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

he says these verses show we’re in hell or heaven in this very moment (though it is manifested at death). Is there any weight to this linguistically?

How can we be in heaven & hell without being going through the hour (الساعة) or qiyamah? 

I would rather say that we are witnessing the qiyamah at this very moment. 

Our every action is producing its effects. So I think احاطه here in this verse refers to the "surrounding in sins", those who are surrounded by their sins, are the people of fire according to 2:81

بَلَىٰ مَنْ كَسَبَ سَيِّئَةً وَأَحَاطَتْ بِهِ خَطِيئَتُهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ أَصْحَابُ النَّارِ ۖ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ

2:81) Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).

There is no linguistic weight in this idea that we are either living in hell or heaven. There is a verse of Quran which categorically says this:

فَوَرَبِّكَ لَنَحْشُرَنَّهُمْ وَالشَّيَاطِينَ ثُمَّ لَنُحْضِرَنَّهُمْ حَوْلَ جَهَنَّمَ جِثِيًّا {68}

[Shakir 19:68] So by your Lord! We will most certainly gather them together and the Shaitans, then shall We certainly cause them to be present round hell on their knees.

And everyone of us has to go through it, according to this verse:

وَإِنْ مِنْكُمْ إِلَّا وَارِدُهَا ۚ كَانَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ حَتْمًا مَقْضِيًّا {71}

[Shakir 19:71] And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. 

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13 minutes ago, Cool said:

And everyone of us has to go through it, according to this verse:

وَإِنْ مِنْكُمْ إِلَّا وَارِدُهَا ۚ كَانَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ حَتْمًا مَقْضِيًّا {71}

[Shakir 19:71] And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord. 

Just to add here that there are some exceptions here too, which is mentioned in the verses of chapter 21:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ سَبَقَتْ لَهُمْ مِنَّا الْحُسْنَىٰ أُولَٰئِكَ عَنْهَا مُبْعَدُونَ {101}

[Shakir 21:101] Surely (as for) those for whom the good has already gone forth from Us, they shall be kept far off from it;

لَا يَسْمَعُونَ حَسِيسَهَا ۖ وَهُمْ فِي مَا اشْتَهَتْ أَنْفُسُهُمْ خَالِدُونَ {102}

[Shakir 21:102] They will not hear its faintest sound, and they shall abide in that which their souls long for. 

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9 minutes ago, Cool said:

How can we be in heaven & hell without being going through the hour (الساعة) or qiyamah? 

Salam , It maybe driven from famous hadith of 

“This world is a prison for a believer and a paradise for the unbeliever.”

Quote

“This world is a prison for a believer”

“And a paradise for the unbeliever.”;This means that a true believer always aspires to leave this prison of his body and his Nafs and Ruh wants to get closer to the Almighty God, but those who do not believe have nothing further than their mortal lives and they aspire to make it a paradise. But in the process they create their own hell on earth for their aspirations are never-ending desires for accumulating material wealth.

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/death-beautiful-gift-believer

https://www.al-islam.org/the-hereafter-maad-ayatullah-dastaghaib-shirazi/day-judgement-qiyamat

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgement-sayyid-akhtar-rizvi/part-4-day-judgement#50-hell

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , It maybe driven from famous hadith of 

“This world is a prison for a believer and a paradise for the unbeliever.”

Salam Brother!

That makes this world hell for believers & heaven for unbelievers. But I am talking in context with the referred verses specifically the phrase:

وَإِنَّ جَهَنَّمَ لَمُحيطَةٌ بِالكافِرينَ

I think it is better if @313_Waiter share the lecture or its link so that we can understand what Br. Khalil wanted to say.

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23 minutes ago, Maisam Haider said:

For Allah, time is immaterial. Past, present, future are all the same for him. This means for Allah, we are currently in hell or heaven because for him, future is no different from present. That's what I think. 

This means we are in this limited worldly life which is said to be لعب and لهوا and at the same time we are in the دار الأخرة which is said to be الحيوان. We are here and there simultaneously at the same time? 

What is اجل (appointed term) then? 

Will we escape from time when we are in heaven or in hell? Will there be no concept of day & night? 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

think it is better if @313_Waiter share the lecture or its link so that we can understand what Br. Khalil wanted to say.

Salaam, yes it is shared in my original post click the Lecture title. I think he mentions it in the first lecture but he mentioned it again in 4th which is the one I watched recently.

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48 minutes ago, Maisam Haider said:

This has to do with the concept of time. What is time? For Allah, time is immaterial. Past, present, future are all the same for him. This means for Allah, we are currently in hell or heaven because for him, future is no different from present. That's what I think. 

I haven’t reflected too much into time but if it think about it the present seems to have reality whilst the past seems to be in my memory.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

He covers it in more detail in lecture 6. It has to do with states of consciousness:

Salam, 

I have seen the whole lecture today and I feel the need to see his opening lectures too. 

From 30:44 onwards he started giving references of Quranic verses which, according to him, points towards that the heaven and hell currently exists with us. The following are the verses which he referred:

52:14-15, 50:22, 21:27, 7:49

And he also gave references of few ahadith (40:40 onwards), one from Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and other from Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) 

I have just kept this information as notes, I will comment after listening to his opening lectures Insha Allah.

Edited by Cool
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cool said:

have seen the whole lecture today and I feel the need to see his opening lectures too. 

https://youtu.be/GNefnXQWcYY

This is actually a very interesting series of lectures. And what the lecturer actually means by "we are living in hell" is that this world is the place of multiplicity which actually distracts us from the only reality i.e., Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

So at 52:16 he mentioned that this world of plurality is hell fire that it distracts us from the ultimate reality. 

I have nor problem with that sort of understandings. But these are not literal expressions, these are metaphorical expressions pointing towards the haqqeqat of our every action in this world which would lead us to either heaven or hell. 

For understanding what is meant by living in hell, I would like you to cite the verses of Chapter 56, from verse # 41 onwards:

وَأَصْحَابُ الشِّمَالِ مَا أَصْحَابُ الشِّمَالِ {41}

[Shakir 56:41] And those of the left hand, how wretched are those of the left hand!

فِي سَمُومٍ وَحَمِيمٍ {42}

[Shakir 56:42] In hot wind and boiling water,

وَظِلٍّ مِنْ يَحْمُومٍ {43}

[Shakir 56:43] And the shade of black smoke,

لَا بَارِدٍ وَلَا كَرِيمٍ {44}

[Shakir 56:44] Neither cool nor honorable.

Now the above is the arrangement for the group of people who are mentioned below:

إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَبْلَ ذَٰلِكَ مُتْرَفِينَ {45}

[Shakir 56:45] Surely they were before that made to live in ease and plenty.

وَكَانُوا يُصِرُّونَ عَلَى الْحِنْثِ الْعَظِيمِ {46}

[Shakir 56:46] And they persisted in the great violation.

وَكَانُوا يَقُولُونَ أَئِذَا مِتْنَا وَكُنَّا تُرَابًا وَعِظَامًا أَإِنَّا لَمَبْعُوثُونَ {47}

[Shakir 56:47] And they used to say: What! when we die and have become dust and bones, shall we then indeed be raised?

أَوَآبَاؤُنَا الْأَوَّلُونَ {48}

[Shakir 56:48] Or our fathers of yore?

Edited by Cool
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1 hour ago, Cool said:

So at 52:16 he mentioned that this world of plurality is hell fire that it distracts us from the ultimate reality. 

salam yes, I believe the lecture series is based on wahdat al wujud.

1 hour ago, Cool said:

have nor problem with that sort of understandings. But these are not literal expressions, these are metaphorical expressions pointing towards the haqqeqat of our every action in this world which would lead us to either heaven or hell


In lecture 4 I think he mentions something about how when we are doing some sins our very states of being change like even our heart starts palpitating. also he mentions spiritual events and how people of high spiritual status or higher consciousness can see things we can’t.

So I think it is more than just metaphorical.

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1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

he mentions spiritual events and how people of high spiritual status or higher consciousness can see things we can’t.

So I think it is more than just metaphorical.

What is so important & special in them that they are able to see what we can't?

74:43-47 are the verses which one would need to reflect also. The people of the right will ask from the mujrimeen, what has brought you here (in hell)?

The reply given by the people of fire is this:

1. We were not of those who prayed.

2. And we used to not feed the poor

3. And we used to enter into vain discourse with those who entered into vain discourses.

4. And we used to deny the day of judgement.

5. Till death (certainty) approached us. 

One can imagine that the people who are doing these acts till their death will be thrown in hell, and that will happen after the judgement day which is an appointed term according to our belief.

But how one can claim that this earth is the hell literally? And that we are living in hell literally? 

To accept these sort of assertions would means that we have by-passed the "day of judgement" which is also the truth along with the heaven & hell.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cool said:

What is so important & special in them that they are able to see what we can't?

Salam it’s related to their state of consciousness, which also emanates from the way they act, fasting, praying, detachment from ego is included in it. Br. Khalil mentions how when people ask “how can ‘I’ better my salah” by including the “I” or the “ego” they are making a mistake they should be diminishing the “I”. Through spiritual practice many have come to this realisation of Divine Unity (Tawhid).

This quote is very relevant:

Quote

Know that mystics possess four journeys.

The first journey is from creation to God. When one contemplating contemplates upon creation, he finds himself qualified by the quality of contingency that necessitates reliance upon another. Pure contingents do not possess in themselves anything that has subsistence in itself; rather, all pure contingents participate in not having existence in themselves but being dependent upon a thing external to them that grants them existence, which is God the Necessary in Himself. So the contemplator moves from contingents to the Necessary in Himself . . .

The second journey is the journey in God with God and is the move from the attribute of the essentially Necessary to the other attributes such as knowledge, life, power, will, audition, sight and speech.

The third journey is the journey from God to creation and the move from the attribute of the Merciful to the existentiation of creatures in a perfect form from intellects descending to souls and spheres down to the elements and then progressing to minerals, vegetables, animals, humans and then to angels and the reversion to God.

The fourth journey is the journey in creation to God and is an expression for disclosure and presence of being and attributes of perfection in the Necessary Being and the True Being that subsists in Himself . . . The culmination of this journey is the absolute annihilation of contingents and the manifestation of true subsistence.

—Shams al-Dīn Khafrī (d. 1550), Risāla fī asfār arba'a, MS Raza Library (Rampur) 1027, fol. 49r.

Perhaps  it is the “I” that separates us from Allah (azz) and keeps us in a state of hell. In Dua Kumayl we read:

Quote

فَلَئِن صَيَّرْتَنِي لِلْعُقُوبَاتِ مَعَ أَعْدَائِكَ

fa-la-in say-yar-tani lil-u'qubati ma' a`da-ik

So if You takest me to the punishments with Your enemies,

 

وَجَمَعْتَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَ أَهْلِ بَلائِكَ

wa jama`ta bayni wa bayna ahli bala-ik

And gatherest me with the people of Your tribulation

 

وَفَرَّقْتَ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَ أَحِبَّائِكَ وَأَوْلِيَائِكَ

wa far-raq-ta bay-ni wa bay-na ahib-ba-ika wa aw-li-ya-ik

And separatest me from Your friends and saints,

 

فَهَبْنِي يَا إِلَهِي وَسَيِّدِي وَمَوْلاي وَرَبِّي صَبَرْتُ عَلَى عَذَابِكَ،

fa-hab-ni ya ilahi wasay-yidi wa mawlaya wa rab-bi sabar-tu `ala `adhabika

Then suppose, My God, my Master, my Protector and my Lord that I am able to endure Your chastisement,

 

فَكَيْفَ أَصْبِرُ عَلَى فِرَاقِكَ

fakayfa as-biru `ala firaqika

How can I endure separation from You?

 

وَهَبْنِي صَبَرْتُ عَلَى حَرِّ نَارِكَ،

wa hab-ni sabar-tu `ala har-ri narika

And suppose that I am able to endure the heat of Your fire,

 

فَكَيْفَ أَصْبِرُ عَنِ النَّظَرِ إِلَى كَرَامَتِكَ

fakayfa as-biru `an-nazari ila karamatik

How can I endure not gazing upon Your generosity?

 

أَمْ كَيْفَ أَسْكُنُ فِي النَّارِ وَرَجَائِي عَفْوُكَ

am kayfa as-kunu fin-nari wa raja-i `af-wuk

Or how can I dwell in the Fire while my hope is Your pardon?

Quote

But how one can claim that this earth is the hell literally? And that we are living in hell literally? 

To accept these sort of assertions would means that we have by-passed the "day of judgement" which is also the truth along with the heaven & hell.

Good point, I will need to think deeper on this. 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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Salaam,

i just started watching lecture 7 and he is giving proofs from the Imams ((عليه السلام)) about what he said:

 

 

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5 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam,

i just started watching lecture 7 and he is giving proofs from the Imams ((عليه السلام)) about what he said:

 

 

Salam brother, 

If you listen him from 6:30 onwards, you will find him saying what I am saying here from the beginning i.e., hell cannot manifest itself (in full) in this world.

I am listening to rest of his lectures, these lectures are interesting indeed. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
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On 7/27/2021 at 7:28 AM, 313_Waiter said:

 

State of Paradise....

20:118~119 “You will not (feel) hungry therein (for there is no biological – material body) nor naked! Indeed, you will neither be thirsty therein nor hot from the sun (due to not having a biological – material body)!”

State of this world.....
You feel hunger and thirst. Trying to cover your naked body and feeling heat of the sun.
Everything opposite of Paradise.

Opposite of paradise is Hell.

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On 8/12/2021 at 12:27 AM, Cool said:

I am listening to rest of his lectures, these lectures are interesting indeed. 

Salam brother, please let me know your thoughts once you finish the lectures. I am also close to finishing.

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4 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salam brother, please let me know your thoughts once you finish the lectures. I am also close to finishing.

Alaikas-Salam brother!!

I was fighting with covid19 from 6th of Muharram. Just passed 3 fever free days and recovered from that infection. I was unable to watch complete series of those lectures. Insha Allah will continue from tomorrow and will share with you my views. 

Wassalam!!

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

Alaikas-Salam brother!!

I was fighting with covid19 from 6th of Muharram. Just passed 3 fever free days and recovered from that infection. I was unable to watch complete series of those lectures. Insha Allah will continue from tomorrow and will share with you my views. 

Wassalam!!

May Allah keep you and your family safe from all diseases. Alhamdulillah im glad you recovered.

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