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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Absurdity of Prophethood

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Guest Sunni_Apostate

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I'm a Sunni apostate, but I've written the following for a Shia audience:

Does one not find it amazing that God communicates with the Prophet inside a cave through an angle, in the dark, gives the Prophet this amazing news, and this amazing event occurs with really no witnesses at all? This pattern is repeated throughout the Prophet’s life. He seems to go on a trip of the universe on a magical creature, time travelled to akhirat, talks to God, all the while sitting in his room and all of this took place in less than a second apparently. 

Can I simply ask every sound minded Muslim, what prevented God from creating this alternative reality:

One day the Prophet called all the people of his town the Holy Kaaba. He stood atop the Kaaba, and to the amazement of all the watchers, a bright light appeared from the sky, a beautiful angel appeared before them, it’s smell filled the entire city for days to come, it’s beauty was so dazzling some fainted. The angel descended, and in a voice unlike that anyone had heard, it declared that it was Jibraeel, sent from Allah, and that all bear witness, that this man standing atop the Kaaba, Muhammed, is His Messenger, and that the young boy Ali, is successor and also a divine authority.

Jibraeel would continue to appear and deliver more and more wisdom, and would help reinforce and strengthen the faith of the towns people. After repeated visits from Jibraeel over the course of 50 years, the entire city of Mecca and surrounding areas accepted Islam. Of course there were still those jealous few that kept hatred and animosity towards the Prophet and the religion… this small group etc etc… story continues. The final Prophet of God continued to live for another 50 years, Imam Ali smoothly transitioned into power as well as the remaining Imams. The people of the world do pretty much what they are expected to do using their own free will as everything made sense, and the world became what God wanted it to be.

(please note that there is precedent from the Quran of angels coming and teaching people of all things magic… look up harut and marut)

Instead let’s examine the same story but in our reality:

The Prophet is visited by the angel Jibraeel in cave and continues to make invisible visits with many of the Prophet’s own community not believing in him and some become mortal enemies.  The final Prophet makes a claim and struggles for the people to accept it. After much struggle and war he does manage to be victorious and things appear to be going to plan. But then he dies within 23 years of declaring prophethood, the final prophet mind you upon who every single person’s salvation depends on gets 23 years to explain everything… the majority of the ummah is actually made up of new Muslims, many of them have never even seen the Prophet. Power does not transition smoothly at all to the Imams because people using their free will don’t do as they are supposed to. Some Imams manage to preserve some knowledge, but eventually all the Imams are killed saving one who also has to go into hiding like a spy and thousand years later still no one has any idea when he might ever come back. Every new generation fervently hopes that the time has finally come. But after 1400 years, it’s chaos that rules, not the Imam. Satan's power increases to the point that majority of the world’s nations and governments appear to be operating under his command. I’ll stop here with the story.

1.       Please tell me how does it make more sense for God to keep behaving like the CIA instead of having some transparency when it comes to communication with Prophets – how does it benefit the end goal/purpose of guiding humanity if you’re going to be so secretive about the most important communication that humanity has to rely on?

2.       What’s prevented God from brining about the former vs the latter in terms of what I've return above. Let’s suppose our own reality and version of events, could God not have influenced reality in such a way that we had the right set of people that would use their free will as they should and things would have worked out for the Prophet and Imams? You’d have to explain why not.

3.       If I can imagine a reality in which everything works out the way it should have, surely God already has such a reality in His knowledge – why did he choose to manifest this reality over any other potentially better reality? You’d have to explain why God isn’t capable of manifesting such a reality considering it must exist as a possibility in His eternal knowledge.  

4.       Is this the best of all possible worlds that we are living in? Could the game have not been altered or influenced in a way where the world could be better (using human free will as the tool)?

e.g. Abu Sufyan, Abu Bakr, Omar Osman – all die at child birth. Yazeed nor Bani Umayya is ever even born.  Imam Ali and his true companions like Zuhair, Miqdad, Ammar etc bury the Prophet and take power as they rightly should have. There is minor opposition which is easily quelled. Centuries of peace and wisdom follow in which humanity reaches it's full and intended potential.

Whereas what happened, these maniacs got to do what they wanted with the Prophet and his aaal, leaving the rest of humanity in doom and gloom for God knows how many more centuries.

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Your first point is about the nature of revelation and how in your view it should have been manifested in a different manner. 

The prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was known as a truthful (sadiq) and trustworthy (ameen) person in his society well before revelation. These characteristics would not have been relevant if revelation manifested itself in the way you describe, and yet they are essential in the way revelation actually occurred. If any other man made such claims, they would easily have been rejected. However, since they came from an honest and trustworthy individual they were taken seriously and the religion grew year after year despite the lack of financial, social and political incentives.

6 hours ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

1.       Please tell me how does it make more sense for God to keep behaving like the CIA instead of having some transparency when it comes to communication with Prophets – how does it benefit the end goal/purpose of guiding humanity if you’re going to be so secretive about the most important communication that humanity has to rely on?

The communication is clearly recorded in the Qur'an. Rather than being secretive it is open for all to read, consult and reflect upon.

 

6 hours ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

 

2.       What’s prevented God from brining about the former vs the latter in terms of what I've return above. Let’s suppose our own reality and version of events, could God not have influenced reality in such a way that we had the right set of people that would use their free will as they should and things would have worked out for the Prophet and Imams? You’d have to explain why not.

I wouldn't say anything has prevented Him, but I don't see why it would have to occur in any other manner. The Qur'an is available for all to read and consult. The life and teachings of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) have also been documented and transmitted. Part of building one's faith is to read and reflect on these teachings, to identify the truth and to act upon it. Perhaps if this truth was as dominant as you hope for, many would end up following it only due to it's might rather than through true belief. 

6 hours ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

 

4.       Is this the best of all possible worlds that we are living in? Could the game have not been altered or influenced in a way where the world could be better (using human free will as the tool)?

Are we living in paradise? No, but I don't believe this was the purpose. One must test, build and strengthen their faith and commitment in an environment that brings certain challenges before they can enjoy it's eternal rewards. 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

9 hours ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

what prevented God from creating this alternative reality

Can I ask why you think you should be part of that reality and not this one? Because it would be 'easier' is an assumption, I'll try to briefly demonstrate the implications of your proposed reality.

Here is someone in the 21st century who lives in your alternative reality and like you he will also be an apostate.

We'll ask him why that is the case and he'll respond:

 You know that instance that occurred where:

       the Prophet called all the people of his town the Holy Kaaba. He stood atop the Kaaba, and to the amazement of all the watchers, a bright light appeared from the sky, a beautiful angel appeared before them, it’s smell filled the entire city for days to come, it’s beauty was so dazzling some fainted. The angel descended, and in a voice unlike that anyone had heard, it declared that it was Jibraeel, sent from Allah, and that all bear witness, that this man standing atop the Kaaba, Muhammed, is His Messenger, and that the young boy Ali, is successor and also a divine authority.

Yes, we do remember that instance it is clearly documented.

We'll, that's not fair, they got to see an angel! And above that the angel spoke to them and spoon-fed them the truth!

Why do you say it isn't fair? What do you propose, the Prophet instead receiving the message from, I don't know, a cave? How about a dark cave with no witnesses :rolleyes:

Well, yes that would be a lot better!

Why in the world would that be better?

Because, it would be consistent and fair for the rest of us, we didn't get to see an Angel, nor did it tell us the truth, so why do they get one? It just sounds too idealistic! I feel like we are living in an idealistic society, where in reality we should be tried by virtue of our reason, not the dogma of the past, and the agreements, or disagreements of others.

Okay, 'Mr. Apostate' can you kindly expound over your alternative reality?

Sure, so I am proposing a reality where the Prophet is engaging in his regular routine of meditation, which is in a secluded cave. And out of nowhere an Angel comes and delivers the message to him... long story short, the Prophet goes on to convey this message to the people, and the reason I love how things are playing out in this reality, is because the wisdom of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in terms of guidance is using the Prophet to first sift through the sick, and the sincere.

hold on, what do you mean by 'sick' and 'sincere'? 

Well, you see the Prophet goes to his townspeople and makes a claim, a very bold claim. Of course, the people around will be startled, they'll question him, and some will scoff at him. However, those who simply shake their heads and mock will not be deserving of what the sincere receive.

And, what exactly do they receive?

It'll start off with eloquent verses which pull them towards deep reflection, and through that reflection in a sense their hearts will be primed, and cleansed for what's to come of grand miracles.

Okay, just hold on... Why in the world does all this have to happen, why can't everyone simply get the miracle in the first place?

Because, they'll simply reject the miracle!

Why would they reject a miracle, that just doesn't make any sense!

Take these proposed verses, which you'll find in my alternative reality:

 

11. Leave Me to him whom I created alone.

12. And gave him vast wealth.

13. And children as witnesses.

14. And smoothed things for him.

15. Then he wants Me to add yet more!

16. By no means! He was stubborn towards Our revelations.

17. I will exhaust him increasingly.

18. He thought and analyzed.

19. May he perish, how he analyzed.

20. Again: may he perish, how he analyzed.

21. Then he looked.

22. Then he frowned and whined.

23. Then he turned back and was proud.

24. And said, “This is nothing but magic from the past.

25. This is nothing but the word of a mortal.”

      
   Okay... I am not quite following; what point are you trying to make, and what do these verses signify?

Well, it's addressing the psychological reality of the disbeliever, it is one who is ungrateful, and it is one who is corrupted by his pride! For, the people at the time were generally experiencing the same mode of living, they needed a filtering, and a means to open a multitude of doors; those doors being, thoughtfulness, gratitude, and humility. After they unlock those universal doors, which irrespective of one's paradigm, you'd agree they are good qualities in and of themselves.

Okay, so I think I am starting to follow... Essentially what you're saying is that rationally speaking there needs to be a sense of cleansing of the heart, because guidance needs to be earned, otherwise it's (a) forced belief, because everything is just spoon-fed, and (b) it isn't fair to us also, because we didn't get a chance to sit down and reflect deeply, we're sort of numbed by this surreal 'perfection' that we're living!

That is what I am trying to say, and it is the reason I have become an apostate. I also would like to add, those who don't go through that cleansing won't even believe in the greatest of words, and the greatest of miracles!

Wait, are you saying there is a flaw in what we've been taught?

That is exactly what I am saying.

Can you kindly expound?

Gladly.

Those who did not purify their hearts to the message of the Prophet even if:

        Jibraeel would continue to appear and deliver more and more wisdom, and would help reinforce and strengthen the faith of the towns people.

The sick will simply say: 

“This is nothing but magic from the past.

     This is nothing but the word of a mortal.”

Wait, I can see where you're coming from, but I think you kind of missed the part where history kind of denotes that:

       After repeated visits from Jibraeel over the course of 50 years, the entire city of Mecca and surrounding areas accepted Islam. Of course there were still those jealous few that kept hatred and animosity towards the Prophet and the religion… this small group etc etc…

Yes, again, I am happy you concede to the fact that pretty much the majority accepted Islam, but again! This narrative is too idealistic for me, look at these verses from may alternative reality, and please ponder deeply over them:

       1. When the hypocrites come to you, they say, “We bear witness that you are indeed the messenger of Allah.”-Allah knows that you are really His messenger-But Allah testifies that the hypocrites are actually liars.

       2. They have made their oaths a shield, and thus they have prevented (others) from the way of Allah. Surely evil is what they have been doing.

       3. And if you see them, their physiques would attract you, and if they speak, you would (like to) listen to their speech (because of their eloquence). (Yet, being devoid of substance,) it is as if they were propped up beams of timber. They deem every shout (they hear) to be against them (out of cowardice). They are the enemy; so beware of them. May Allah destroy them. How perverted are they!

       4. And when it is said to them, “Come on, so that Allah’s Messenger may pray for your forgiveness”, they twist their heads (in aversion), and you see them turning away in arrogance.

Okay, wow, those were some interesting verses; one might even say 'Godly' but I don't want become an apostate like you. I am interested, however, in your perspective, and an explanation over what these verses signify.

I assure you, if you follow things through their logical end, and you employ sincerity as your safeguard, you too will want to live in my alternative reality and be an apostate to this idealistic one.

I am interested in your perspective, and an explanation over what these verses signify.

I am grateful that you haven't sealed your heart, as the Lord of my alternative realm does not guide those hearts which are ignorantly, and arrogantly sealed by their own foolish will. The verses go on to highlight the flaws in this realm! They are saying even if we see those people who in our history as the:

          story continues. The final Prophet of God continued to live for another 50 years, Imam Ali smoothly transitioned into power as well as the remaining Imams. The people of the world do pretty much what they are expected to do using their own free will as everything made sense, and the world became what God wanted it to be.

Yes... That's what happened, isn't it great?

No it's not, first of all on what basis are we drawing this idealism, it's sort of implying a needy God, in the sense that we just have to have everyone agreeing, otherwise it'll somehow turn into an argument against God. Now, if you ask me, that is a complete fallacy. First of all, how do we know whether those who supposedly are on the right path (a)  are true believers, as well as (b) what makes us say they have free will!

I can see where you're coming from in terms of (a) as numbers usually deceive, and I can agree to the genuine truth seeker, numbers are completely irrelevant. However, I would appreciate an explanation as to why you even doubt there being free will? I mean, there was a message, there were Prophets, and essentially there were some disbelievers.

Wellthink of it like this. This 'perfect' reality that we're living in seems to posit throughout history a sense of complete and utter harmony, where nearly everyone is just guided and nobody really had to do anything, The Archangel simply led everyone towards success, it's like giving merit to a baby for the milk that its being fed. It doesn't make sense, and it's worthless - God might as well as throw them into heaven to begin with.

That is a good point, we can theorize.

Why would we do that? Everything is supposedly 'perfect' if we need to theorize, our entire reality collapses! 

Why does it collapse?

Because it is predicated on perfection!

Oh... I guess, you have convinced me to become an apostate to this world.

You have broken your chains, and I am proud of you for listening to what I had to say about this reality, and reflecting on this weak assumption of it being perfect. So weak, you'd be surprised that there are people who actually believe in this reality, you know what we call them in my alternate reality?

What do you call them?

We call them disbelievers, or in some cases apostates.

Wait, you're starting to blow my mind again, you're telling me people would apostate in that beautiful and logical realm because: 

     The Prophet is visited by the angel Jibraeel in cave and continues to make invisible visits with many of the Prophet’s own community not believing in him and some become mortal enemies.  The final Prophet makes a claim and struggles for the people to accept it. After much struggle and war he does manage to be victorious and things appear to be going to plan. But then he dies within 23 years of declaring prophethood, the final prophet mind you upon who every single person’s salvation depends on gets 23 years to explain everything… the majority of the ummah is actually made up of new Muslims, many of them have never even seen the Prophet. Power does not transition smoothly at all to the Imams because people using their free will don’t do as they are supposed to. Some Imams manage to preserve some knowledge, but eventually all the Imams are killed saving one who also has to go into hiding like a spy and thousand years later still no one has any idea when he might ever come back. Every new generation fervently hopes that the time has finally come. But after 1400 years, it’s chaos that rules, not the Imam. Satan's power increases to the point that majority of the world’s nations and governments appear to be operating under his command.

    Yes, sadly, that is exactly what I am telling you.

What kind of imbecile would apostate for these reasons?! I mean it's nonsensical, and I just cannot put to words the level of idiocy one must have to do that.

You'd be surprised, reasons vary, and although they're ambiguous they can be explained from a wide range of avenues.

Well, apparently that is one of those reasons, as intellectually deprived, as they may be.

No, those aren't the reasons, those are foolish attempts to justify following one's own vain desires, and one's own low ego, it is very pathetic to say the least.

Well, let's not be conspiracy theorists here.

What's wrong with that? I mean the reasons provided are maintained through conspiracy, albeit lazy.

Can you at least refute each point, so this 'conspiracy theorist' can see the level of lunacy he's reached.

I don't mind refuting him, it's just that there really isn't anything presented in terms of an argument, so as to be refuted.

How so, you have an entire block of contentions!

Not really, it's just a mirage, this was what apostates and disbelievers do. They willingly deceive themselves, it's quite tragic, but I mean would you really feel sorry for someone who just wants to convince themselves to jump into a pit of fire and torment? Losing this world by being an imbecile, and the next by deceiving themselves by reason of their misuse of reason. 

I can see what you're saying, there doesn't seem to be an argument against God, or Prophethood at that, it's just baseless reasons for disbelief that really don't matter, there are millions of stories.

Exactly, a serious apostate would start the argument with claiming there is no God, present their premises, and the conclusion that follows. I don't see any of that, all I see is someone lost and heading towards a very dark and grim place. 

Why would someone do this to themselves?

There are many reasons, we can speculate, as this apostate does in our perfect reality. He could be someone who just wants to feel better about themselves by, I don't know figuring out what these ignorant 'believers' have been confused over for thousands of years. He not only does that, but he goes the extra step of re-writing history and religion! Albeit, with some bad English, one would expect a refutation towards Allah and His messenger to at least carry some coherence in reason and vocabulary, I digress.

 

 @Guest Sunni_Apostate 

I advise you to reconsider your conclusion, or suffer loss of this world and the next. I also hope that whoever sees this does not give atheists, apostates, and other non-muslims the opportunity to entertain their sophistry. Indeed the Qur'an suffices as a beautiful guide, and a remedy to the sick.

If you follow the majority of people on the earth, they will lead you astray from the path of God, for they follow only conjecture and surmise. {6:116}

The example of those who take allies other than Allah is like that of the spider who takes a home. And indeed, the weakest of homes is the home of the spider, if they only knew. {29:41}

And they have thereof no knowledge. They follow not except assumption, and indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all. {53:28}

You've highlighted the Absurdity of the one who claims 'The Absurdity of Prophethood'.

Edited by Zaidism
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Posted (edited)

None of your points mean anything. You are living in 2021 so would witness nothing. By your logic every human would need to witness a prophet recieving revelation.

Your thought process is completely pointless.

So let's start from step 1

Do you believe that the cosmos is created or uncreated ?

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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:salam:

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

 By your logic every human would need to witness a prophet recieving revelation.

 

This. And nowadays' skeptics would all invoke mass hallucination for what would have happened then. See how that goes with apparitions of the Virgin Mary in our times. 

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All three brothers above have made a very good point which was missing in my first reply. 

Indeed one of the strengths of having a single, consolidated book is that it no longer matters if anyone claims to see/hear an angel, to get a vision or to meet or even be a prophet. None of that matters because the reference for revelation will remain to be the Qur'an. Any other claims will simply be set aside as irrelevant, thus protecting the revelation from falsification.

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Posted (edited)

Also, a collective dependence on the physical apparitions of Angels and Divine messages is very problematic since it would mean that Revelation will be circumscribed by both time and space.

As we know, Islam is a universal religion applicable to all eras. If Revelation is indeed a phenomenon physically witnessed by the naked eye, that would confine Islam exclusively to the people present at that specific time.

Inevitably, the Divine Message will be spread by word of mouth, thereby inexorably making room for hearsay, fabrication and corruption. Instead - adding onto what brother@Mahdavistmentioned - the Quran sealed the Message so man could not obfuscate, fabricate, conceal or alter its contents. 

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interesting replies... some standard, some creative. 

might help you understand why I left Islam to begin with. Being shias I don't think it will be hard for you to understand how much nonsense exists within sunni Islam. Reading the sahih hadith books put the nail on the coffin for me. If the hadith are accurate, than there is no way Muhammad was a Prophet. If the hadith are are just distorted versions of history then they are useless as well.

i find shiaism to be closer to a cult, worshipping God through saints and Ahlulbayt. The Imams are overglorified saints, much like the current Iranian mullahs are over glorified and even many shias are sick of iranian propaganda...  I'm sorry to say this but any community that's banking their hopes upon some elusive Mahdi after the death of generations upon generations of humanity must be brainwashed and part of a cult. Muslims seems to consider themselves the center of the world forgetting the genocide of communities upon communities in the past thousand plus years. God may have a plan for all of us, I just don't think it's the Islamic version of the plan which has repeatedly failed over and over again. 

I do believe in a God/creator, just not in any organized religion. I live my life by the principal of not harming others or myself. I might make mistakes and get things wrong sometimes, but so does the believe non-believer alike. 

 If I was living under Islamic law I would have to killed for apostasy due to cult like nature of Islam. Any religion that doesn't let people choose freely what they want to follow must have fundamental flaws. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

 

I do believe in a God/creator, just not in any organized religion. I live my life by the principal of not harming others or myself. I might make mistakes and get things wrong sometimes, but so does the believe non-believer alike. 

 

What a pointless creator and a useless belief for you.

Create sit back and let people carry on with vague statements like "not harming others" ?

I'm Shia but I'd rather follow the Prophet of sahi Bukhari then follow the pointless belief in a creator you have.

Your theological view is completely useless for the world. Hopefully you contribute to the betterment of society in other ways. 

Focus on being a good person and helping make the world a better place. And keep your absurd theological.opinion to yourself.

Your view of a creator is like having a solar powered torch a nice novelty but no one sensible would buy it.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Can I simply ask every sound minded Muslim, what prevented God from creating this alternative reality:

One day the Prophet called all the people of his town the Holy Kaaba. He stood atop the Kaaba, and to the amazement of all the watchers, a bright light appeared from the sky, a beautiful angel appeared before them, it’s smell filled the entire city for days to come, it’s beauty was so dazzling some fainted. The angel descended, and in a voice unlike that anyone had heard, it declared that it was Jibraeel, sent from Allah, and that all bear witness, that this man standing atop the Kaaba, Muhammed, is His Messenger, and that the young boy Ali, is successor and also a divine authority.

Let's see - If you find any similarities here 

Quote

The Farewell Pilgrimage
Ten years after the migration (hijrah), the Messenger of Allah [peace and blessings be upon him and his Progeny] ordered to his close followers to call all the people in different places to join him in his last pilgrimage. On this pilgrimage he taught them how to perform the pilgrimage in a correct and unified form.

This was first time that the Muslims with this magnitude gathered in one place in the presence of their leader, the Messenger of Allah [s]. On his way to Makkah, more than seventy thousand people followed Prophet [s]. On the fourth day of Dhu'l-Hijjah more than one hundred thousand Muslims had entered Makkah.

Location

After completing his last pilgrimage (Hajjatul-Wada'), Prophet [s] was leaving Makkah toward Madinah, where he and the crowd of people reached a place called Ghadir Khumm (which is close to today's al-Juhfah).  It was a place where people from different provinces used to greet each other before taking different routes for their homes.

Revelation of Qur'anic Verse 5:67
In this place, the following verse of the Qur'an was revealed:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

The last sentence in the above verse indicates that the Prophet [s] was mindful of the reaction of his people in delivering that message but Allah informs him not to worry, for He will protect His Messenger from people.

The Sermon
Upon receiving the verse, the Prophet [s] stopped on that place (the pond of Khumm) which was extremely hot. Then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered. He ordered Salman [r] to use rocks and camel toolings to make a pulpit (minbar) so he could make his announcement. It was around noon time in the first of the Fall, and due to the extreme heat in that valley, people were wrapping their robes around their feet and legs, and were sitting around the pulpit, on the hot rocks.

On this day the Messenger of Allah [s] spent approximately five hours in this place; three hours of which he was on the pulpit. He recited nearly one hundred verses from The Glorious Quran, and for seventy three times reminded and warned people of their deeds and future. Then he gave them a long speech.

The following is a part of his speech which has been widely narrated by the Sunni traditionists:

Tradition of the Two Weighty Things (thaqalayn)

The Messenger of Allah [s] declared:

 "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both,  you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."

[See also: Hadith al-Thaqalayn: A Study of its tawatur]

Acknowledgement of Authority

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: 

"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"  

People cried and answered: 

"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Text (nass) of the Designation

Then followed the key sentence denoting the clear designation of 'Ali as the leader of the Muslim ummah.  The Prophet [s] held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.html

Your wish did come true for the second level appointment - They All acknowledged the person delivering the Message when they said  '("Yes, O' Messenger of God.")  Now what was the result? 

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On 7/24/2021 at 1:53 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

You are living in 2021 so would witness nothing. By your logic every human would need to witness a prophet recieving revelation.

I think this is a good summary and argument against what I wrote, and I agree with it and can see where I was wrong in my thinking when it comes to an  "alternative reality". I can see why sending angel may have yielded similar results.

however of course I have many reasons for not accepting any religion as truth. 

take the zaidi brother that has replied above. he doesn't believe your 5th to 12th imam were infallible - and neither do shia consider the zaidi additional imams to be perfect.  I just go one step further than both of you and don't think anyone is "perfect". God hasn't sent anyone to speak on His behalf - this universe is a place of discovery and learning.

There are tribes and peoples till this day that have never heard of any religion... one has to wonder why they exist - the answer is a mystery much like many other mysteries - but I don't think it's because the tribe's salvation lies in worshipping God through an Arab merchant that lived centuries ago. No religion nor group is at the center of God's attention and never has been. this is some jewish fetish about thinking you're chosen and the world revolves around you and your prophet - muslims have just adopted this same fetish and applied it to prophet, companions, and ahululbayt. just read the shia "hadis kisa" and they think the entire universe was created for this small group of people who's existence isn't like blip in this universe's history. 

Do you not see people discovering truth and God all the time from all religions...  just like physics and chemistry has nothing to do with any religion, the discovery of God is the same. it would be as if people started worshipping darwin or newton and staking their entire lives and salvation on their teachings like many atheists!

 the only required tool is self discipline, this is where religion helps anyone. Every religion that has to be followed has a self discipline path which helps you develop inner potentials and capabilities. people think their religion is the truth when it's self discipline that leads to it. 

if the muslim form of worship such as prayer and fasting was enough to actually cause any change on it's own, than we would find far more Muslims that are enlightened. it's the act of praying on time - which helps self discipline - same for fasting. but people just pray and fast because they think it has some magical invisible reward and they'll be saved from angry monsters, i mean angry angels after they die. 

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If you believe in a creator then the next step has the creator revealed himself.

Revelation is the key to your above questions. Either Qur'an is the word of God or it isn't. 

Start there, you are free to ask any questions regarding Qur'an. 

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46 minutes ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

 

take the zaidi brother that has replied above. he doesn't believe your 5th to 12th imam were infallible - and neither do shia consider the zaidi additional imams to be perfect.  I just go one step further than both of you and don't think anyone is "perfect". God hasn't sent anyone to speak on His behalf - this universe is a place of discovery and learning.

I'm also Zaidi. But this is not a Intra-islam discussion. 

It about accepting the main tenants of Islam that bind all Muslim Vs your non acceptance.

Once you are Muslim you can worry about Imamat.

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On 7/25/2021 at 5:26 AM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

I think this is a good summary and argument against what I wrote, and I agree with it and can see where I was wrong in my thinking when it comes to an  "alternative reality". I can see why sending angel may have yielded similar results.

however of course I have many reasons for not accepting any religion as truth. 

take the zaidi brother that has replied above. he doesn't believe your 5th to 12th imam were infallible - and neither do shia consider the zaidi additional imams to be perfect.  I just go one step further than both of you and don't think anyone is "perfect". God hasn't sent anyone to speak on His behalf - this universe is a place of discovery and learning.

There are tribes and peoples till this day that have never heard of any religion... one has to wonder why they exist - the answer is a mystery much like many other mysteries - but I don't think it's because the tribe's salvation lies in worshipping God through an Arab merchant that lived centuries ago. No religion nor group is at the center of God's attention and never has been. this is some jewish fetish about thinking you're chosen and the world revolves around you and your prophet - muslims have just adopted this same fetish and applied it to prophet, companions, and ahululbayt. just read the shia "hadis kisa" and they think the entire universe was created for this small group of people who's existence isn't like blip in this universe's history. 

Do you not see people discovering truth and God all the time from all religions...  just like physics and chemistry has nothing to do with any religion, the discovery of God is the same. it would be as if people started worshipping darwin or newton and staking their entire lives and salvation on their teachings like many atheists!

 the only required tool is self discipline, this is where religion helps anyone. Every religion that has to be followed has a self discipline path which helps you develop inner potentials and capabilities. people think their religion is the truth when it's self discipline that leads to it. 

if the muslim form of worship such as prayer and fasting was enough to actually cause any change on it's own, than we would find far more Muslims that are enlightened. it's the act of praying on time - which helps self discipline - same for fasting. but people just pray and fast because they think it has some magical invisible reward and they'll be saved from angry monsters, i mean angry angels after they die. 

Hey brother,

What you point out is an issue with all religions. All religions age, regardless of the message. People add and delete things as they like. We believe that Islam is different as the message has been preserved within the Quran.

Also, any Hadiths that contradict the Quran are false regardless of how strong the chain is and whether it is in shia or sunni books. The Quran is the metric by which all statements should be measured by. It would also stand to reason to believe that God will be judging our deeds by the Quran. Just as a Christian is judged by the bible and so on and so forth.

No one in the 21st century ever saw the Prophet or the prophets before him, but the absence of seeing doesn't mean that there were no prophets at all. We don't see death, yet we are certain that we all will taste it one way or another sooner or later regardless of our beliefs in the next life.

The risk of falling into self fulfilling prophecies increase as we start to question the very fundamentals of life. Living as a good person in life doesn't always equate into being a good person. For instance it would make more sense to kill a disabled or a diseased person as a way of mercy and compassion towards them,it would make more sense as a society to concentrate all of our might and knowledge and care towards the healthy, but it is not a moral choice. What may seem commonplace in the animal kingdom where the survival of the self takes precedents over everything thing else is deemed immoral and a sin worthy of eternal damnation by the same creator.

Life doesn't always make sense. Can you ever expect an ape with whom we share 96% of our genes with to understand our way of life or our society and the complexity of our individual lives?

No.

Then what gives us the right to object to the creator of everything and take issue with the manner in which the creator has seen fit to send us his message? Just as I would not expect a monkey to understand me, I do not expect myself to understand God. 

Just be careful with what you ask for, as God in his infinite wisdom saw fit to send certain commands through to certain people whom he has chosen because of no other reason than that itself being the reason. So if he wills it, it shall be. Do you think that God works or functions in a democratic way? No 

God's commands are absolute, otherwise if they weren't, then he would not be the God, just as there would be chaos if there were multiple Gods as they would sooner or later disagree as in with the Greek Gods.

God did not need my permission to create me. He created me when I was non existent. He willed me into existence just as he has done so to everyone and everything else. He doesn't decree by the majority, he doesn't function or rule in a democratic way. He wills it all. Whether it's fair or not, then you should ask him when you meet him. 

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

If you believe in a creator then the next step has the creator revealed himself.

Revelation is the key to your above questions. Either Qur'an is the word of God or it isn't. 

Start there, you are free to ask any questions regarding Qur'an. 

 

Of course He has revealed Himself... in fact there is nothing other than Him revealing himself... you, me, every rock and tree, this entire universe is Him revealing Himself. I just don't believe He revealed Himself to any one person, i.e. i am denying the concept of Prophethood while maintaining Tauheed. Prophethood is the equivalent of trying to reach God through idol worship, you guys just ideology worship. It's like trying to find a broker for what is actually equal for all human beings. I think the Quran is man made and has mistakes in it... but i don't want to debate over the quran, to me quran is like the bible, torah, upanishads, add whatever religious books you want to add... 

The struggle towards enlightenment is equal, some people reach it and some don't and it appears they are not even meant to achieve enlightenment... 

let's say like the Buddha.  people around him afterwards turn him into some diety to be worshipped or some ideology to be followed... Bhudda, like possibly people that are called prophets, gurus, saints, shamans, and whatever other names they are known by... it's people after them that use their name for their own benefit. 

Isn't the so called islamic wahabi government till this day using the name of religion to act like a monster? isn't iran using belief in a hidden imam to propel it's politics? isn't the "islamic" republic of pakistan always trying to bank on religion somehow... I mean God guys, just look at the religious situation in pakistan, i think animals are living better lives in Africa than humans in some places like pakistan... isn't india's govt abusing religious beliefs to take power and then literally killing innocent people?

organized religion isn't a bad starting point and can be beneficial for many people, but i just don't find any proof or evidence that Islam, or any religion is in fact sent divinely... they are man made constructs to help manage society... that's exactly what religion was used for throughout history, nations were ruled by people that claimed divine authority... 

btw aren't your mullahs still collecting 20 percent of your savings (where does that go btw, anyone ever try to audit these people?)? how many enlightened people have you ever met in your mosque or community? people that are God realized and that actually take you towards realization of Truth instead of making you beat your chests?? that don't just get you confused over historical incidents and debates over who is right and who is wrong... or don't just mindlessly recite the quran or some other dua thinking they are building houses in some other dimension?

 

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I'm also Zaidi. But this is not a Intra-islam discussion. 

It about accepting the main tenants of Islam that bind all Muslim Vs your non acceptance.

Once you are Muslim you can worry about Imamat.

thank you for clarifying that lol :rolleyes:

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FYI- 

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This is indicated by a narrative on the authority of Ibn al-Sukayt. He asked [the eighth Imam] Abu1 al-Hasan al-Rida (peace be upon him):

Why did God send Moses (peace be upon him) with the [miraculous] staff, white hands, and the power of magic, [whereas] he sent Jesus with the power of healing and Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) with the [power of] speech and oration?

The Imam Abu al-Hasan (peace be upon him) replied:

This is because when God sent Moses (peace be upon him), what prevailed among the people of his time was magic. Thus, he brought them from God something that no one among them could perform, and which rendered their magic null and void; and with that He established the proof for them.

And God sent Jesus (peace be upon him) at a time when chronic illnesses had appeared and people needed the medical sciences. Jesus brought them from God something the like of which they did not have, and by means of which he raised them from the dead, and healed the blind and the lepers, with God's leave. Thus, he established the proof for them.

And God sent Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) at a time when the art of oration and poetry was prevalent among the people of his time. Thus, he brought them from God his exhortations and his wisdom, which rendered speeches null and void, and he established his proof for them.5

https://www.al-islam.org/al-bayan-fi-tafsir-al-quran-prolegomena-quran-sayyid-abu-al-qasim-al-khoei/1-inimitability-quran#quran-divine-miracle

Above should give you pause, you may reflect on your initial premise. In the past There were "Clear Signs" which were shown and the people Witnessed them. Fast forward, 2021 people can make various excuses and deny them. 

Quote
وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًا ۚ قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِنْدَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ {43}

[Shakir 13:43] And those who disbelieve say: You are not a messenger. Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you and whoever has knowledge of the Book.
[Pickthal 13:43] They who disbelieve say: Thou art no messenger (of Allah). Say: Allah, and whosoever hath knowledge of the Scripture, is sufficient witness between me and you.
[Yusufali 13:43] The Unbelievers say: "No messenger art thou." Say: "Enough for a witness between me and you is Allah, and such as have knowledge of the Book."

The word Mawla/Imam/Ahlul bayth/Pure progeny are all in "play" and different meaning were/are been assigned to fit the narrative. Like  to clearly identify- Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(عزّ وجلّ)(Proof of Allah(عزّ وجلّ), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(عليه السلام).

Mawla Ali(عليه السلام) was/is/will be  the Witness to Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his Purified Progeny). 

Now even today, 

Quote

We may say briefly that from the point of view of their purport there is no difference between the rules laid down by Ali regarding human rights and the charter of the United Nations. If any minor difference is observed, apparently it is due to changes which have taken place in the terminology during the course of time, and is not basic or in principle.

There is no chapter in the charter of the U.N. which is not running parallel to the rules laid down by Ali. In fact better and more useful things are found in the instructions given by him.

In my opinion the difference between the two sets of rules is due to the following four reasons:

Firstly the charter of the United Nations was drafted by thousands of intellectuals belonging to almost all the countries of the world whereas the Alavi rules were enunciated by only one person viz. Ali son of Abu Talib.

Secondly Ali arrived in this world fourteen hundred years ago.

Thirdly those who drafted the U.N. charter or in fact collected the requisite material for it indulged in too much extravagant talk and self-praise and boasted that world was indebted to them on this account. On the contrary Ali showed humility before God and was modest before the people. He did not seek greatness or superiority. He always prayed to God and also wished the people that his acts of commissions and omissions might be overlooked.

The fourth reason for the difference which is more important than the three enumerated above is that many nations, out of those which participated in the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights and endorsed it, violated this declaration and started armed conflicts to nullify and destroy it, but wherever Ali placed his foot, and whenever he said anything, or unsheathed his sword, he did so to destroy tyranny and oppression and leveled the ground to march forward on the path of truth and justice. So much so that he met his martyrdom in defence of human rights, although during his lifetime he had already been martyred thousands of times.

 

 

https://www.al-islam.org/voice-human-justice-sautul-adalatil-insaniyah-george-jordac/un-charter-human-rights

The present book is an English translation of Sautu'l `Adalati'l Insaniyah, the biography of Imam Ali, written in Arabic by George Jordac, a renowned Christian author of Lebanon.

Read the above carefully, you will notice that the "System" created by ALL the intellectuals of today, was not any better, and was not implemented. One thing to offer theories and another to offer the best System and Implement it. 

Now, the Life of the  Best student, of Muhammad al- Mustafa (Peace be Upon him and his Purified Progeny), From day one till today - Is a Divine Sign which serves as is Witness to his Mawla/Master's . 

If the student is like this, (Knowledge/Wisdom acknowledged by believers and non believers a like) - If best minds/intellects of today,  can't fly up  to the initial level where this students knowledge/wisdom starts- Imagine his Mawla/Master.  Undeniable fact, ( Clear Sign). You don't need an angle to show you a clear sign, it has been here to the ones with intellect to see. 

Layman

Say Ya Ali(عليه السلام). 

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On 7/25/2021 at 8:28 AM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

. I think the Quran is man made and has mistakes in it... but i don't want to debate over the quran, to me quran is like the bible, torah, upanishads, add whatever religious books you want to add... 

What do you want ?

This is the only important conversation. As everything hinges on revelation.

If we don't talk about revelation it's just a conversation about ideas from our own imagination.

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5 hours ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

 but i just don't find any proof or evidence that Islam, or any religion is in fact sent divinely... 

This is why we need to discuss Qur'an because we claim it is our proof.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, User 313 said:

What’s the point if he/she doesn’t believe in it

Then we either convince them or we don't that it's revelation. If we don't then what's the point of further discussing anything. Other then a bit of an entertaining conversation.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Of course He has revealed Himself... in fact there is nothing other than Him revealing himself... you, me, every rock and tree, this entire universe is Him revealing Himself. I just don't believe He revealed Himself to any one person, i.e. i am denying the concept of Prophethood while maintaining Tauheed. Prophethood is the equivalent of trying to reach God through idol worship, you guys just ideology worship. It's like trying to find a broker for what is actually equal for all human beings. I think the Quran is man made and has mistakes in it... but i don't want to debate over the quran, to me quran is like the bible, torah, upanishads, add whatever religious books you want to add... 

FYI

Quote

37-4 Muhammad ibn Musa ibn al-Mutawakkil - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Abul Husayn Muhammad ibn Ja’far al-Asadi quoted on the authority of Muhammad ibn Al-Husayn al-Sowli, on the authority of Yusif ibn Aqil, on the authority of Ishaq ibn Rahawayh, “When Abul Hassan Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) was leaving Neishaboor to go to Al-Ma’mun, the scholars of traditions gathered around him and said, “O son of the Prophet of God ((عليه السلام).)! You are leaving us and you will not inform us of any traditions to benefit us?” He was sitting in a carriage. Then he brought his head out and said, “I heard my father Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).) say that his father Ja’far ibn Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) quoted on the authority of his father Muhammad ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of his father Ali ibn Al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of his father Al-Husayn ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of his father Ali ibn Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).), on the authority of the Prophet (S) that

he had heard Gabriel say that God the Honorable the Exalted said, “There is no god but God” is My Stronghold. Whoever enters My Stronghold is secure from My Punishment.” When they moved on, he loudly said,

“There are certain conditions for this. And I am one of these conditions.

https://www.al-islam.org/uyun-akhbar-ar-ridha-volume-2-shaykh-saduq/chapter-37-what-ar-ridha-said-upon-leaving-marbaat

Consider/imagine  the following to get the essence due to the limitations of human intellect. 

The fort of "“There is no god but God” surrounded by 14 Impenetrable Walls of Knowledge/Wisdom/Awareness/Conviction - 

Two things can't happen.

1) In order to attack the fort you need to pass thru these 14 walls of Knowledge/Wisdom/Absolute Conviction/loyalty. Your mind /intellect does not have that kind of flight. 

2) In order to get to the fort, To be protected. you need to understand these 14 walls of Knowledge/Wisdom and Absolute Certainty. 

So, you are out of luck, your tawheed or whatever is been revealed to you is generic and there is not a single human who ever lived or will live you does not see the signs- and understands that he did not create himself nor what is around him.  However, Your tawheed is like the tahweed of iblis, MY Version. Well there will be 7billion plus version of god at this time. 

This Qur'an Only Virus and Worshiping "Muhammad" slogan are 1400 years old. They will lead you to where you are or going - The section you posting this topic in. Book is sufficient, is god is sufficient, and if you follow Muhammad you worship him does not hold any water maybe in the half literate desert community which can be rallied to conquer and pillage "so called odolworshipers" - Political conquest. 

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I think the Quran is man made and has mistakes in it..

Me as a layman, don't or can't concern myself with the details/investigations.  Not qualified. It was revealed to the people who spoke the language and that should be a clue to you. 

More importantly, Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(عزّ وجلّ)(Proof of Allah(عزّ وجلّ), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(عليه السلام). Imam Hassan(عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain(عليه السلام) - 

Battle of Jamal.  Battle of Siffin,  and Karbala. 

So, considering the events of the life of the Guardians of the Word of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) the walking talking Word. Whatever is between the two covers is exactly what we needed to have. If there was something that was needed to be done, read the events of Karbala it would have been done. End of Story. 

We have the Message/Concepts. 

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf

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On 7/24/2021 at 2:16 PM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

i find shiaism to be closer to a cult, worshipping God through saints and Ahlulbayt. The Imams are overglorified saints, much like the current Iranian mullahs are over glorified and even many shias are sick of iranian propaganda... 

Salam this is totally a wrong conclusion  which you have reached to it through wrong introducing  of Shia Islam through wahabi & Salafi source because   all shias are just  worshiping  Allah/God which " saints and Ahlulbayt" are our mentors for worshipping  only Allh/God , by the same token , anti Iranian  propaganda  just cames from wahabi /Salafi source & a minority of shias likewise Shirazi grouplet  which has similar mentality  likewise  of wahabis/Salafis .

On 7/23/2021 at 4:02 PM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

The Prophet is visited by the angel Jibraeel in cave and continues to make invisible visits with many of the Prophet’s own community not believing in him and some become mortal enemies.

According to both of Sunni & Shia source arch angle Jibraeel also has visited prophet  in public by manifstation likewise a human specially  in sunnisources IIt has mentioned  that arch angle Jibraeel has appeared in form of Dihyah al-Kalbi 

Quote

(One day) we were sitting and the Messenger of Allah [SAW] was sitting in his spot, when a man came along who was the most handsome and good-smelling of all people, and it was as if no dirt had ever touched his garments. .............. Five things which no one knows except Allah [(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)]. Verily, Allah, with Him (alone) is the knowledge of the Hour up to His saying: 'Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things).' Then he said: 'No, by the One who sent Muhammad with the truth, with guidance and glad tidings, I did not know him more than any man among you. That was Jibril, peace be upon you, who came down in the form of Dihyah Al-Kalbi.'"

https://sunnah.com/nasai:4991

 

On 7/24/2021 at 2:16 PM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

might help you understand why I left Islam to begin with. Being shias I don't think it will be hard for you to understand how much nonsense exists within sunni Islam. Reading the sahih hadith books put the nail on the coffin for me. If the hadith are accurate, than there is no way Muhammad was a Prophet. If the hadith are are just distorted versions of history then they are useless as well.

I agree with you however , It's not a good reason for leaving Islam while   on the other hand there is true & accurate hadiths about prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) in Shia side .

On 7/25/2021 at 8:28 AM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

btw aren't your mullahs still collecting 20 percent of your savings (where does that go btw, anyone ever try to audit these people?)? how many enlightened people have you ever met in your mosque or community? people that are God realized and that actually take you towards realization of Truth instead of making you beat your chests?? that don't just get you confused over historical incidents and debates over who is right and who is wrong... or don't just mindlessly recite the quran or some other dua thinking they are building houses in some other dimension?

This is also another  wrong conclusion  based on wahabi /Salafi accusations  agaianst  Shias  because only Marjas can collect Khums which they don't  use it for themselves  but on the other hand the  collected Khums is just using for caring poor & weak people  of Shia community  or for example  building beneficial public  places & builduings  for whole of muslim & non muslim  community  likewise building of hospitals during Corona outbreak  which also all of staffs have been bought from Khums money which even Sunnis in Iraq & Iran have benefited  from these hospitals which all marjas living based on their earning from their share from selling their books  or salary for education  of students . There is many  "enlightened people" are available  in shia community  which even you find them on Internet  likewise Sheikh Nuru Muhammad  , Hasanain Rajabali , Sheikh Segaleshfar & Sheikh Dr Shomali from Iran which list goes on too long which you can find their books & articles  in sites likewise https://www.al-islam.org or http://www.islamicmobility.com or you can find videos of their speeches  in Youtube which beating  chests is not an obligation  even it has no connection to principles  of religion which also  "just mindlessly recite the quran or some other dua thinking they are building houses in some other dimension" is not recommended  in Shia Islam but on the other  hand thinking about anything  specially  each verse of Quran or part of dua is highly recommended  in Shia Islam however reciting  any verse or dua has it's benefits in this world & hereafter which you can find interpretation  of verses or duas from any shia scholar likewise previously  mentioned scholars because  Shia Islam is religion  of reasoning  & understanding  in contrast with any Sunni sect which based on just doing everything  mindlessly.

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23 hours ago, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

if the muslim form of worship such as prayer and fasting was enough to actually cause any change on it's own, than we would find far more Muslims that are enlightened. it's the act of praying on time - which helps self discipline - same for fasting. but people just pray and fast because they think it has some magical invisible reward and they'll be saved from angry monsters, i mean angry angels after they die. 

I see your point however I have never  seen worshipping & fasting due to fear from angry monsters /angels although some old generations of shias are doing these rituals in hope of reward however door of questioning about anything & receiveing answer in not closed to anyone in shia Islam which in contrast to Sunnis months of Ramadhan & Muharram & Safar are always best months for shias about receiving more education & better understanding of any aspect of Islam for Shias ,therefore you can find best educational lectures about Islam during these three months. 

 

 

 

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On 7/25/2021 at 8:49 AM, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Read the above carefully, you will notice that the "System" created by ALL the intellectuals of today, was not any better, and was not implemented. One thing to offer theories and another to offer the best System and Implement it. 

every system is ideal, perfect, ideal, utopic when we dream of it and put it down on paper. capitalism, communism, imamate, prophethood... where all systems fail is implementation, and rightly so because humans are implementing these systems. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2021 at 5:02 PM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

I'm a Sunni apostate, but I've written the following for a Shia audience:

Does one not find it amazing that God communicates with the Prophet inside a cave through an angle, in the dark, gives the Prophet this amazing news, and this amazing event occurs with really no witnesses at all? This pattern is repeated throughout the Prophet’s life. He seems to go on a trip of the universe on a magical creature, time travelled to akhirat, talks to God, all the while sitting in his room and all of this took place in less than a second apparently. 

Can I simply ask every sound minded Muslim, what prevented God from creating this alternative reality:

One day the Prophet called all the people of his town the Holy Kaaba. He stood atop the Kaaba, and to the amazement of all the watchers, a bright light appeared from the sky, a beautiful angel appeared before them, it’s smell filled the entire city for days to come, it’s beauty was so dazzling some fainted. The angel descended, and in a voice unlike that anyone had heard, it declared that it was Jibraeel, sent from Allah, and that all bear witness, that this man standing atop the Kaaba, Muhammed, is His Messenger, and that the young boy Ali, is successor and also a divine authority.

Jibraeel would continue to appear and deliver more and more wisdom, and would help reinforce and strengthen the faith of the towns people. After repeated visits from Jibraeel over the course of 50 years, the entire city of Mecca and surrounding areas accepted Islam. Of course there were still those jealous few that kept hatred and animosity towards the Prophet and the religion… this small group etc etc… story continues. The final Prophet of God continued to live for another 50 years, Imam Ali smoothly transitioned into power as well as the remaining Imams. The people of the world do pretty much what they are expected to do using their own free will as everything made sense, and the world became what God wanted it to be.

(please note that there is precedent from the Quran of angels coming and teaching people of all things magic… look up harut and marut)

Instead let’s examine the same story but in our reality:

The Prophet is visited by the angel Jibraeel in cave and continues to make invisible visits with many of the Prophet’s own community not believing in him and some become mortal enemies.  The final Prophet makes a claim and struggles for the people to accept it. After much struggle and war he does manage to be victorious and things appear to be going to plan. But then he dies within 23 years of declaring prophethood, the final prophet mind you upon who every single person’s salvation depends on gets 23 years to explain everything… the majority of the ummah is actually made up of new Muslims, many of them have never even seen the Prophet. Power does not transition smoothly at all to the Imams because people using their free will don’t do as they are supposed to. Some Imams manage to preserve some knowledge, but eventually all the Imams are killed saving one who also has to go into hiding like a spy and thousand years later still no one has any idea when he might ever come back. Every new generation fervently hopes that the time has finally come. But after 1400 years, it’s chaos that rules, not the Imam. Satan's power increases to the point that majority of the world’s nations and governments appear to be operating under his command. I’ll stop here with the story.

1.       Please tell me how does it make more sense for God to keep behaving like the CIA instead of having some transparency when it comes to communication with Prophets – how does it benefit the end goal/purpose of guiding humanity if you’re going to be so secretive about the most important communication that humanity has to rely on?

2.       What’s prevented God from brining about the former vs the latter in terms of what I've return above. Let’s suppose our own reality and version of events, could God not have influenced reality in such a way that we had the right set of people that would use their free will as they should and things would have worked out for the Prophet and Imams? You’d have to explain why not.

3.       If I can imagine a reality in which everything works out the way it should have, surely God already has such a reality in His knowledge – why did he choose to manifest this reality over any other potentially better reality? You’d have to explain why God isn’t capable of manifesting such a reality considering it must exist as a possibility in His eternal knowledge.  

4.       Is this the best of all possible worlds that we are living in? Could the game have not been altered or influenced in a way where the world could be better (using human free will as the tool)?

e.g. Abu Sufyan, Abu Bakr, Omar Osman – all die at child birth. Yazeed nor Bani Umayya is ever even born.  Imam Ali and his true companions like Zuhair, Miqdad, Ammar etc bury the Prophet and take power as they rightly should have. There is minor opposition which is easily quelled. Centuries of peace and wisdom follow in which humanity reaches it's full and intended potential.

Whereas what happened, these maniacs got to do what they wanted with the Prophet and his aaal, leaving the rest of humanity in doom and gloom for God knows how many more centuries.

I'm not a shia or a sunni.

...so my perspective of Islam is markedly different than theirs understandably.

Based on my understanding of the content presented in the Quran, its nor relevant whether or not you believe in it as a message from a "creator", nor that is it necessary that guidance/morality is derived in this book only or a belief.

therefore bringing forward the idea that a creator could just make its existence known/ubiquitous and will the human existence into perfect balance... is largely antithetical ... and ignorant to the reality around us.  It also destroys the concept of "freewill".  though i would argue prophethood isn't as absurd.. though when associating the traditional İslami narrative To it..yes it becomes as as such in my view.

Asserting the creators presence id say disrupts the concept of freewill because it would change behavior/thinking and traits of most people with "knowing" about existence of a creator. we should be free to.ponder it and not be penalized if we ever reached a conclusion.

the narrative of the Quran establishes in its early chapters that the book is a message for mankind, but not an order.  rather its intended towards those who have an "awareness" of God and this book will benefit those who have those inclinations. and it will NOT benefit those without those inclinations. (in other words indoctrination of religion into children is fundamentally wrong in the Quran implicitly, which I'm going to anger many Muslims by saying this).  Ergo Quran is aligned in its assertions as an intended to guide/Aid those who have a sense/perception in a creator. however the heck you quantify that.

implying those without awareness or consciousness of "God", don't need this book. it won't serve as a guide. they're better off without it.

This means those who aren't believers in God are not necessarily morally bankrupt or contemptible.  people are quite able to derive morality within their own faculties. they do NOT meet the definition of "Kafir".

for clarification... I reject all Hadith in regards to religious jurisprudence/matters. I consider the Quran an ongoing archaeological project at this stage of my life.

as such please bear in mind, I find that fundamentally.. the story of  Miraj, . donkey riding to Jerusalem on magical donkey, etc. etc. are all asenine and unsubstantiated... along with many of the mainstream Islamic narratives.

EDIT:

i wasn't clear but if islam as presented in the OP, is as what folks beleive it, I'm in agreement. it is completely backwards.   

 

Edited by wmehar2
clarity
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On 7/24/2021 at 2:16 PM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

interesting replies... some standard, some creative. 

might help you understand why I left Islam to begin with. Being shias I don't think it will be hard for you to understand how much nonsense exists within sunni Islam. Reading the sahih hadith books put the nail on the coffin for me. If the hadith are accurate, than there is no way Muhammad was a Prophet. If the hadith are are just distorted versions of history then they are useless as well.

i find shiaism to be closer to a cult, worshipping God through saints and Ahlulbayt. The Imams are overglorified saints, much like the current Iranian mullahs are over glorified and even many shias are sick of iranian propaganda...  I'm sorry to say this but any community that's banking their hopes upon some elusive Mahdi after the death of generations upon generations of humanity must be brainwashed and part of a cult. Muslims seems to consider themselves the center of the world forgetting the genocide of communities upon communities in the past thousand plus years. God may have a plan for all of us, I just don't think it's the Islamic version of the plan which has repeatedly failed over and over again. 

I do believe in a God/creator, just not in any organized religion. I live my life by the principal of not harming others or myself. I might make mistakes and get things wrong sometimes, but so does the believe non-believer alike. 

 If I was living under Islamic law I would have to killed for apostasy due to cult like nature of Islam. Any religion that doesn't let people choose freely what they want to follow must have fundamental flaws. 

you're 100%. 

none of it would be the true religion of God

good on you for invoking you're natural inclinations and rejecting the malarkey

to me that makes you a Muslim. of a greater islam transcendent of language and cultural constraints.

All of these are traits the Quran lauds, reasonability, and accepting what is good and rejecting what's bad.

Unfortunately the quran as translated today is completely wrong. Sunni, Shia whoever.

its Absurd. absolutely absurd that contemporary scholars who you'd think exercise the due diligence in translating the book would have a basic understanding in language mutations/morphology.  

But they haven't.  its gut wrenching how many notable sunni even shia scholars translate the quran but have glaring contradictions between them even though they're accepted by the scholarly consensus..  most of which not even having the mastery of English needed to extrapolate the raw ideas being expressed. 

it should be evidence enough that the Quran as you think you know it, isn't even what you think it is.

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Islam is not a "Subject"/or Some entity to be researched using secular acquired skills- these are good for math or study some phenomenon/or some dude who wrote a book on something or theory.

You ever  wondered why most "intellectuals"/Academics can 't reach a definite conclusion and stay "Agnostic".   Inherent Flaw in design/tools, by which they carry out the investigations. 

-----

Whatever we have is from Karbala. 

Answer to above for those who have insight, and understand the meaning and significance of these 

Quote
اَلسَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ يَا وَارِثَ مُحَمَّدٍ حَبِيبِ ٱللَّهِ
alssalamu `alayka ya waritha muhammadin habibi allahi
Peace be upon you, O inheritor of Muhammad the most beloved by Allah.

https://www.duas.org/ziyarat-imam-hussain-waritha.html

&

Quote

Kull yawm ʿĀshūrāʾ wa kull arḍ Karbalā (Arabic: كل يوم عاشوراء و كل يوم كربلا),...."every day is 'Ashura and every land is Karbala",

 

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Here my Tafsir.  One is the Mute Book and the other is the walking /Talking Book. ( Study their lives) you will understand the Essence of the  Mute book. Due to the Religious malpractice they did the greatest injustice when they started marketing Mawla mean beloved friend.  You guys would not have been lost, if they told the truth. So, burden of all the ones lost is on "Them"(from the  First one who deceived  till the ...last one -still deceiving muslims)

Quote

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

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Posted (edited)
On 7/24/2021 at 2:32 AM, Guest Sunni_Apostate said:

 


You are asking was also asked before.

17:90. They said, “Never will we believe you until you bring forth for us a spring from the ground.”
91. “Or (until) you have a garden of palm trees and grapes, and make rivers gush forth within them with mighty force.”
92. “Or you make the heaven fall upon us in fragments as you have claimed or you bring Allah and the angels before us as warrantors.” (They say this because they fail to understand the One referenced by the name ‘Allah’ and think of Him as a god in the heavens.)
93. “Or you have a house made of gold or you soar into the sky... And even then we will not believe you soared into the sky until you bring down to us a tangible written book we may read!”... Say, “Subhan is my Rabb! What am I but a human with a Rasul function?”
94. What prevents people from believing when a reality comes to them is their word, “Allah has disclosed a human Rasul!”

Edited by Shahrukh K
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