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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate) 3

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The aqeeda according to Imam Hadi fundamentals can be found here:

https://zaidiportal.com/fundamentals-of-islam

There are 2 additional sections in the treatise they are a paragraph on what the sects differ on regarding Imamat. And a conclusion.

 

 

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Here is the section on Imamat:

The Imamate of Amīr al-Muminīn, ‘Ali bin Abi Ťālib
We are religiously obligated to believe that Amīr al-Muminīn, ‘Ali bin Abi Ťālib,
Allah’s blessings be upon him, was the best of the Community after the Prophet,
upon him be peace. He was obedient to his Lord, always willing to give his life,
and always immensely engrossed in his obedience to Allah and His Messenger,
upon him be peace. He was the closest in kinship to the Messenger of Mercy. He
was foremost in knowledge concerning what Allah revealed in the Qur’ān and
his asceticism in this world. The statements of the Messenger, peace and
blessings be upon him and his progeny, concerning him are famous and wellknown;
among them the Day of the Pond (Ghadīr) of Khumm: ((Whomever I
have authority over, ‘Ali has authority over. O Allah, help those that help him
and oppose those that oppose him! Assist those that assist him, and abandon
those that abandon him!)); as well as his statement: ((‘Ali is to me as Aaron was
to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me.)); and ((You are a jurist
(qāďi) of religion and the fulfiller of my trusts)).
The Messenger, upon him be peace, specified him knowing the happenstances
and controversies that would occur with his community. ‘Ali used to relate an
account that he would be killed by a Murādi; and also, he was informed about
the Transgressors (firqat al-Qāsiŧa), the Traitors (an-Nākitha), and the Rebels
(al-Māriqa). It is the consensus of our community that when given the choice,
they all chose him, with the exception of small splinter groups. In that, they
agreed that he is foremost of the forerunners (as-sābiqīn), foremost of the
scholars, foremost of the ascetics, and the foremost amongst those who were
willing to sacrifice themselves. There is no disagreement that he possessed these
traits more than others. His virtues were evident to all.
He was the cousin of Muhammad, upon him be peace; as well as the father of
the two Grandsons (as-Sibtayn): al-Hassan and al-Hussein. He was the husband
of Fātima, blessings be upon them all.
There is mutual agreement that ‘Ali, Allah’s blessings be upon him, was suited
for the Caliphate the day that Allah took His Prophet, upon him be peace. They
disagreed concerning other than him. That withstanding, truth is with what all
agree on. Falsehood is with what all disagree on.

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Imam Hadi is a classic scholar and one of the earliest Zaidi scholars to write a treatise addressing fundamentals. The major school of Zaidi law Hadawi goes back to him.

So its a very good standard to use to demonstrate our obligatory fundamentals.

Hopefully you can also quote a major classic/ early scholar to codify/standardise your fundamentals.

Once we have the definition of obligatory fundamentals we can proceed 

I can also quote the section on differences between sects and conclusion from the same book if you wish.

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I will quote from Muhammad ibn 'Ali ibn al-Husayn, Ibn Babawayh al-Qummi known as Shaykh as-Saduq (306/919 - 381/991). He, alongside al-Kulayni and Tusi (may Allah have mercy on them all), is one of the most classic of the early Twelver scholars. Afterall, he's the author of Man la yahdaruhul Faqih, one of the 4 most important books of narration for 12ers. Therefore, and if any 12er reads this and agrees with me, I believe it's a good standard to use him to demonstrate our obligatory fundamentals.

The 'aqeeda regarding Imamah according Sheikh as-Saduq can be found here: https://vdocuments.mx/a-shiite-creed-sheikh-sadooq-ra.html (I downloaded the pdf from this site because other sites didn't let me copy the text).

Here is what he says about Imamah, in CHAPTER 35, THE BELIEF CONCERNING THE NUMBER OF PROPHETS (anbiya') AND VICEGERENTS (awsiya'), page 84:

And our belief is that after His Prophet, the Blessings of Allah upon him, the proofs of Allah for the people are the Twelve Imams,"' the first of them being the Prince of Believers `Ali b. Abi Talib, then al-Hasan, then al-Husayn, then 'Ali b. al-Husayn, then Muhammad b. `Ali, then Ja'far b. Muhammad, then Musa b. Ja'far, then `Ali b. Musa ar-Rida, then Muhammad b. `Ali, then `Ali b. Muhammad, then al-Hasan b. 'Ali, then Muhammad b. al-Hasan the Proof (al-hujja), who upholds the command of Allah (al-qa'im bi-amri'l-lah), the Master of Time (sahibu'z-zaman), the Vicegerent of the Beneficent One (khalifatu'r-Rahman) in His earth, the one who is present in the earth but invisible (gha'ib) to the eyes -the Blessings of Allah on all of them. 

As we can see, he simply mentionned who are the 12 imams. But what characteristics do they have (ie: what are the fundamentals of Imamah ?) ?. He explains afterwards:

Our belief regarding them is that they are in authority (ulu'l-amr). It is to them that Allah has ordained obedience, they are the witnesses for the people and they are the gates of Allah (abwab) and the road (sabil) to Him and the guides (dalil, pl. adilla) thereto, and the repositories of His knowledge and the interpreters of His revelations and the pillars of His unity (tawhid). They are immune from sins (khata') and errors (zalal) ; they are those from whom "Allah has removed all impurity and made them absolutely pure" [33;33]; they are possessed of (the power of) miracles (mu' jizat) and of (irrefutable) arguments (dala'il) ; and they are for the protection of the people of this earth just as the stars are for the inhabitants of the heavens. They may be likened, in this community, to the Ark of Noah; he who boards it obtains salvation or reaches the Gate of Repentance (hitta).

They are the most noble slaves of Allah, who "speak not until He hath spoken; they act by His command" [21, 27]. And we believe that love for them is true belief (iman) and hatred for them is unbelief (kufr) ; that their command is the command of Allah, their prohibition is the prohibition of Allah; obedience to them is obedience to Allah, and disobedience to them is disobedience to Allah; their friend (wali) is the friend of Allah, and their enemy the enemy of Allah. We believe that the earth cannot be without the Proof (hujja) of Allah to His creatures-a leader either manifest (zahir) and well-known ( mashhur), or hidden (khafi ) and obscure (maghmur).

He later talks specifically about Imam Mahdi (atf), but for now that's not really relevant.

In conclusion, in this chapter, Sheikh as-Saduq defined to us in a simple manner the fundamental belief of Imamah in (12er) Shi'ism. 

 

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11 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

mam Hadi is a classic scholar and one of the earliest Zaidi scholars to write a treatise addressing fundamentals. The major school of Zaidi law Hadawi goes back to him.

The political life of Imam Al-Hadi ((عليه السلام))

Quote

Emergence of Alid Movements: The Abbasid caliphate had embarked on a smear campaign against the Prophet’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) Household in order to incite hatred against them and it did not miss an opportunity to suppress pro-Alid sentiments. The caliphate was vulnerable and afraid of these movements. These movements did not mention the name of any leader in particular, but rather raised the slogan of the Prophet’s Household in general. The Shia Imams were held in a military base in Samarra and any mention of their names would have ended in their death. The following movements had gathered under the umbrella of the Prophet’s (BUH) Household:

Muhammad ibn Qasim Alawi: He rose up in Taliqan against Mutasim. He was arrested in 219 AH by Abdullah Tahir.

Yahya bin Umar Alawi: He rose up from Kufa in 250 AH. He seized the public treasury and released prisoners, but his movement was defeated and he was hanged.

Hassan bin Zayd Alawi: He launched his revolt in 250 AH in Tabaristan and brought Tabaristan and Gurgan under his control. He died in 270 AH.

Muhammad bin Jaʿfar Alawi: He revolted in Khorasan in 251 AH.

These movements along with nearly 14 others are specific to that period of caliphate. The movement leaders rose up against the caliphs and many of them paid for this with their lives. The number of detainees and those who were sent into exile is much more than in previous eras. The historian Mas’udi has mentioned more details in his book, Muruj Al-Dhahab. These movements reveal the tough pressure on the Islamic community of that time.

 

Quote

Imam Al-Hadi used to show deference to Mutawakkil in all their encounters and always supported the righteousness of the path of his ancestors. That explained Mutawakkil’s determination to hold him in Samarra. Mutawakkil’s enmity with the family of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) can be seen in Mutawakkil’s killing of the Scholar Ibn Al-Sakit for his love for Hassan and Hussain. The scholar used to teach Arabic to Mutawakkil’s two children. One day, he asked him: ‘Who do you love more: My two children or Hassan and Hussain?’ Al-Sakit replied frankly: ‘I even love Qanbar, Ali’s (عليه السلام) servant, more than your two children, not to mention the two grandchildren of the messenger of God ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).’ Mutawakkil was infuriated and ordered his agents to pummel him to death. There were even reports that his tongue had been cut out. (Al-Kulafaʾ)

http://shiastudies.com/en/13084/political-life-imam-al-hadi-s/

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10 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

In conclusion, in this chapter, Sheikh as-Saduq defined to us in a simple manner the fundamental belief of Imamah in (12er) Shi'ism. 

 

Thank you brother.

So we can all agree that what Imam Hadi mentioned is correct. (Imamat of Imam Ali)

But from your point of view incomplete ?

So I suggest we proceed in you giving an explanation/proof of the "missing" aqeeda (12 Imams).

I suggest to use firstly Qur'an to lay down the foundation. Then hadith as you feel are needed. 

Once we have discussed your fundamental points of aqeeda regardless of whether we agree or we can summarise our points.

Then we can choose how to move forward ?

What do you think ? How would you like to proceed ?

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

You want me to prove the 12 imams first from the Qur'an, then from hadith ?

Up to you ? I just mean start with Qur'an in one post then use hadith. Just to make it more manageable to read. We can address the verses then move on or you can :

 

1) If you feel Qur'an alone is sufficient. Then just quote the verses.

2)If you feel Quranic verse with a tafseer is needed. Then post the hadith of tafseer in a second post 

3) Post any hadith regarding your belief not directly a tafseer in another post.

These are just suggestions by me. If you have a better format carry on as you wish.

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Okay, but before I begin, I must say, and you ALL know this, that the Qur'an doesn't directly mention the Imams by name or by number (you know this better than we do, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion). That is why I'm gonna quote first some verses and in the next post I'm gonna quote our tafseer/hadiths explaining these verses.

1) يا أَيُّهَا الَّذينَ آمَنوا أَطيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطيعُوا الرَّسولَ وَأُولِي الأَمرِ مِنكُم فَإِن تَنازَعتُم في شَيءٍ فَرُدّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسولِ إِن كُنتُم تُؤمِنونَ بِاللَّهِ وَاليَومِ الآخِرِ ذٰلِكَ خَيرٌ وَأَحسَنُ تَأويلًا

"O, you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority (Ulu l-Amr) among you. And if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favorable in outcome." (Qur'an 4:59)

2) يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَكُونُوا مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

"O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and be with the Truthful" (Qur'an 9:119)

3) وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ

"And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way." (Qur'an 5:12)

4) إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثنا عَشَرَ شَهرًا في كِتابِ اللَّهِ يَومَ خَلَقَ السَّماواتِ وَالأَرضَ مِنها أَربَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذٰلِكَ الدّينُ القَيِّمُ ۚ فَلا تَظلِموا فيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُم ۚ وَقاتِلُوا المُشرِكينَ كافَّةً كَما يُقاتِلونَكُم كافَّةً ۚ وَاعلَموا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ المُتَّقينَ

"Indeed the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah’s Book, the day when He created the heavens and the earth. Of these, four are sacred. That is the upright religion. So do not wrong yourselves during them.1 Fight all the polytheists, just as they fight you all, and know that Allah is with the Godwary." (Qur'an 9:36)

5) ذَلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ قُلْ لا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَی وَمَنْ يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْناً إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ

"That is [the great Bounty] whereof Allah gives glad tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous good deeds. Say [O Muhammad! Say unto people]: “No reward do I ask of you for this [Divine Call] except to be kind to my close relatives.” And whoever earns a good righteous deed, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate [the deeds of those obedient to Him]." (Qur'an 42:23)

These are verses that I found that have tafseer/hadith which explain in them the 12 imams (in the next post). There are also other verses that I think talk about the 12 imams and their characteristics, although I'm not really sure, if perhaps someone else can confirm:

6) وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلاَ تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الأُولَي وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلاَةَ وَءَاتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ اِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرّ‌ِجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهّـِرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً

“And stay in your abodes and do not display your finery, like the former times of Ignorance, and establish the prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Verily Allah intends but to keep off from you (every kind of) uncleanness, O’ you the people of the House! And purify you (with) a thorough purification.” (Qur'an 33:33)

7) ‏وَيَقُولُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ لَوْلَآ أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ ءَايَةٌۭ مِّن رَّبِّهِۦٓ ۗ إِنَّمَآ أَنتَ مُنذِرٌۭ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

"However, they who are bent on denying the truth [refuse to believe and] say, "Why has no miraculous sign ever been bestowed on him from on high by his Sustainer?" [But] thou art only a warmer; and all people have a guide" (Qur'an 13:7)

8) وَ إِذِ ابْتَلى إِبْراهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِماتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قالَ إِنِّي جاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِماماً قالَ وَ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي قالَ لا يَنالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

“And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring ? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (Qur'an 2:124)

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Posted (edited)

1) Jabir b. 'Abd Allah al-Ansari says, "When the verse was revealed, I asked the Prophet (s), 'We know God and his Prophet (s), but who are Ulu l-Amr that God attached their obedience to your obedience?', the Prophet (s) said, 'They are my successors and imams of Muslims after me, first of them is 'Ali, then al-Hasan, then al-Husayn, then 'Ali b. al-Husayn, then Muhammad b. 'Ali,…' Qundūzī, Yanābīʿ al-Mawadda, p. 494.

Imam al-Baqir (a) says in the exegesis of the verse, "Ulu l-Amr are from the children of 'Ali (a) and Fatima (a), till the Day of Judgment." He also said, "By Ulu l-Amr, God only intended us and commanded all the faithful to obey us until the Day of Judgment." Baḥrānī, al-Burhān, p. 383, 386.

Imam al-Sadiq (a) says, "Ulu l-Amr are 'Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, 'Ali b. al-Husayn, Muhammad b. 'Ali and me, praise God that introduced your imams and leaders to you when people deny them. ʿAyyāshī, Tafsīr al-ʿAyyāshī, p. 252.

2) Burayd said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (a) about the Allah's almighty saying as says: Be wary of Allah, and be with the Truthful; he (a) replied: We are meant. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, vol.1 p.208

3) الخلفاء بعدی اثنا عشر کعدد نقباء بنی اسرائیل --> The caliphs after me are twelve, the same number of the naqeebs of Bani Isra'eelصدوق، امالی Pg. 387 (A'mal as-Saduq) and سید هاشم بحرانی، غایه المرام (Sayyed Hashim Bahrani, Ghayah al-Maram) Vol. 2, Pg 271

4) Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36).”He (عليه السلام) breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The ‘year’ is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (S), and his family are its ‘months’ who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of ‘four sacred who are the firm religion’ are those four who have the same name, and are ‘Ali, the Commander of Faithful (عليه السلام), and my father ‘Ali Ibn al-Husayn (عليه السلام), and later ‘Ali Ibn Musa (عليه السلام), and ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad (عليه السلام). Thus acknowledging these four is ‘the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them’ and believe in all of them to be guided." Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi.

5) Suyuti in al-Durr al-Manthur from Ibn Jarir who in his turn narrates on the authority of Abi Daylam: “When ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn was captured and held at the gate of Damascus, a certain man from Sham said: “God bless that He killed and eradicated you.” ‘Ali ibn Husayn replied: “Have you read the Qur’an?” He said: “Yes.” ‘Ali ibn Husayn inquired: “Have you read the Chapter HM?” He said: “No.” ‘Ali asked him: “Have you not read the Verse: ‘No reward do I ask of you for this [Divine Call] except to be kind to my close relatives?’” The man asked: “Are you the ones referred to in the Verse?” ‘Ali replied: “Yes.” al-Durr al-Manthur, vol. 6, p. 7.

As for the last 3 verses I quoted, I didn't find any explicit tafseer that said they referred to the 12 imams, but we can clearly see the characteristics our Imams have in these verses, mainly that: they are purified by Allah, and we understand from this that they are infallible; every nation at all times has an Imam, so it's not possible for an Imam right now not to be present; and it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that chooses/appoints an Imam, so a man can't just say: "I descend from Fatima (عليها السلام), I have knowledge, I'm courageous, I have so-and-so, and now I rise and call to the people to follow and obey me as Imam". That man must clearly be chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), otherwise he's not an Imam, even if he posesses all those "characteristics".

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

1) Imam al-Baqir (a) says in the exegesis of the verse, "Ulu l-Amr are from the children of 'Ali (a) and Fatima (a), till the Day of Judgment." He also said, "By Ulu l-Amr, God only intended us and commanded all the faithful to obey us until the Day of Judgment." Baḥrānī, al-Burhān, p. 383, 386.

2) Burayd said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (a) about the Allah's almighty saying as says: Be wary of Allah, and be with the Truthful; he (a) replied: We are meant. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, vol.1 p.208

5) Suyuti in al-Durr al-Manthur from Ibn Jarir who in his turn narrates on the authority of Abi Daylam: “When ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn was captured and held at the gate of Damascus, a certain man from Sham said: “God bless that He killed and eradicated you.” ‘Ali ibn Husayn replied: “Have you read the Qur’an?” He said: “Yes.” ‘Ali ibn Husayn inquired: “Have you read the Chapter HM?” He said: “No.” ‘Ali asked him: “Have you not read the Verse: ‘No reward do I ask of you for this [Divine Call] except to be kind to my close relatives?’” The man asked: “Are you the ones referred to in the Verse?” ‘Ali replied: “Yes.” al-Durr al-Manthur, vol. 6, p. 7.

 

So firstly I just want to focus on these tafseer. Regardless of authenticity. These statements as stand alone could easily apply to other Shia groups and do not specifically indicate your 12 Imams.

Eg number 1 "children of Ali and Fatima" is very broad and general it actually fits Zaidi Imamat better.

Do you agree ?

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Posted (edited)

Yes, "the children of Ali and Fatima" could apply to other Shia groups, but Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) says: God only intended us and commanded all the faithful to obey us. Note how he says "us". In that context, he's referring to HIMSELF and his forefathers. Do you Zaidis recognize him, as well as Imam Zainul 'Abideen (عليهما السلام) as Imams ? Because if I remember correctly, one of the Zaidi brothers said that Zainul 'Abideen (عليه السلام) wasn't the Imam after al-Hussain (عليه السلام), rather it was Hassan al-Muthanna.

So if you consider both al-Sajjad and al-Baqir (عليهما السلام) to be imams, then yes, the statement isn't specific to 12ers. But from my understanding, you also say that Zaid (رضي الله عنه) was the Imam, and not al-Baqir (عليه السلام), so how can he say that he's part of the Ulil Amr if he's supposedly not the Imam ?

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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1 minute ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

.

So if you consider both al-Sajjad and al-Baqir (عليهما السلام) to be imams, then yes, the statement isn't specific to 12ers.

Yes we consider them Imams as they posses all the characteristics. Our books have hadith from them.

All descendants who have the characteristics are Imams to follow.

But some Imams openly called the ummah to themselves by either having a position of political authority or called to jihad against unjust leaders.

We differentiate those who openly call from those that don't. Because it's common sense.

So if Imam Baqir openly called people to rebel then he has all the characteristics of Imam so would be equal to Zaid. We obey what the pious scholars of Ahlulbayt instruct us. Some instruct politically, legally and spiritually some in particular fields.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

1) Jabir b. 'Abd Allah al-Ansari says, "When the verse was revealed, I asked the Prophet (s), 'We know God and his Prophet (s), but who are Ulu l-Amr that God attached their obedience to your obedience?', the Prophet (s) said, 'They are my successors and imams of Muslims after me, first of them is 'Ali, then al-Hasan, then al-Husayn, then 'Ali b. al-Husayn, then Muhammad b. 'Ali,…' Qundūzī, Yanābīʿ al-Mawadda, p. 494.

 

Imam al-Sadiq (a) says, "Ulu l-Amr are 'Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, 'Ali b. al-Husayn, Muhammad b. 'Ali and me, praise God that introduced your imams and leaders to you when people deny them. ʿAyyāshī, Tafsīr al-ʿAyyāshī, p. 252.

 

3) الخلفاء بعدی اثنا عشر کعدد نقباء بنی اسرائیل --> The caliphs after me are twelve, the same number of the naqeebs of Bani Isra'eelصدوق، امالی Pg. 387 (A'mal as-Saduq) and سید هاشم بحرانی، غایه المرام (Sayyed Hashim Bahrani, Ghayah al-Maram) Vol. 2, Pg 271

4) Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36).”He (عليه السلام) breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The ‘year’ is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (S), and his family are its ‘months’ who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of ‘four sacred who are the firm religion’ are those four who have the same name, and are ‘Ali, the Commander of Faithful (عليه السلام), and my father ‘Ali Ibn al-Husayn (عليه السلام), and later ‘Ali Ibn Musa (عليه السلام), and ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad (عليه السلام). Thus acknowledging these four is ‘the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them’ and believe in all of them to be guided." Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi.

 

So removing the general tafseer we are left with these.

I will await for you to agree of disagree with this statement before proceeding.

As you may have objections to what I said in the previous post 

Then I would like to tackle each verse 1 by 1

Inshallah

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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48 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Yes we consider them Imams as they posses all the characteristics. Our books have hadith from them.

All descendants who have the characteristics are Imams to follow.

Really ? If my memory doesn't fail me, they (عليهما السلام) never made an open call against the oppressors, which I believe was a characteristic of Zaidi Imamah, with the Imam supposedly posessing "Chivalry and Bravery".

If it's not a characteristic, then how can you say Zaid (رضي الله عنه) was better, just because he rebelled ? In that case, wouldn't Nabi Sulayman (عليه السلام) be better than Nabi 'Isa (عليه السلام) because he was about to declare war to the kingdom of Saba ? We know however that 'Isa (عليه السلام) is higher in rank than him, being one of the 5 ulul azmi, despite never even calling to rebellion. 

You know every time I ask for the list of Zaidi Imams, I never get a proper answer. According to wikipedia and many sites, it was Ali, Hassan, Hussain, Sajjad and then Zaid. Then I heard that Sajjad wasn't the Imam, rather Hassan al-Muthanna. And now you're telling me that Sajjad and Baqir were in fact Imams. Is Jafar al-Sadiq also an Imam ? And his children up to the 12th ? Or does the Imamah go back to Zaid and his children ? Who became Imam first, al-Baqir or Zaid ? And now you're telling that some Imams are better than others ? Feels like a labyrinth... :book:

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

We differentiate those who openly call from those that don't. Because it's common sense.

For us, this goes against the saying of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم): "These two children of mine (Hassan and Hussain) are Imams whether they stand up or sit down". An Imam is still an Imam whether he calls openly or not. There is no differentiation to be made.

That's what I have to say.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Really ?

We can get into the mechanics of Zaidi Imamat later. Let's get back on track and stick to those mentioned in aqeeda.

So for arguments sake let's say the hadith in question regarding Imam Baqir is specific to your view.

So we are left with the following tafseer. (see next post)

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We are left with the following tafseer 

1) Jabir b. 'Abd Allah al-Ansari says, "When the verse was revealed, I asked the Prophet (s), 'We know God and his Prophet (s), but who are Ulu l-Amr that God attached their obedience to your obedience?', the Prophet (s) said, 'They are my successors and imams of Muslims after me, first of them is 'Ali, then al-Hasan, then al-Husayn, then 'Ali b. al-Husayn, then Muhammad b. 'Ali,…' Qundūzī, Yanābīʿ al-Mawadda, p. 494.

Imam al-Baqir (a) says in the exegesis of the verse, "Ulu l-Amr are from the children of 'Ali (a) and Fatima (a), till the Day of Judgment." He also said, "By Ulu l-Amr, God only intended us and commanded all the faithful to obey us until the Day of Judgment." Baḥrānī, al-Burhān, p. 383, 386.

Imam al-Sadiq (a) says, "Ulu l-Amr are 'Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, 'Ali b. al-Husayn, Muhammad b. 'Ali and me, praise God that introduced your imams and leaders to you when people deny them. ʿAyyāshī, Tafsīr al-ʿAyyāshī, p. 252.

 

3) الخلفاء بعدی اثنا عشر کعدد نقباء بنی اسرائیل --> The caliphs after me are twelve, the same number of the naqeebs of Bani Isra'eelصدوق، امالی Pg. 387 (A'mal as-Saduq) and سید هاشم بحرانی، غایه المرام (Sayyed Hashim Bahrani, Ghayah al-Maram) Vol. 2, Pg 271

4) Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36).”He (عليه السلام) breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The ‘year’ is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (S), and his family are its ‘months’ who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of ‘four sacred who are the firm religion’ are those four who have the same name, and are ‘Ali, the Commander of Faithful (عليه السلام), and my father ‘Ali Ibn al-Husayn (عليه السلام), and later ‘Ali Ibn Musa (عليه السلام), and ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad (عليه السلام). Thus acknowledging these four is ‘the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them’ and believe in all of them to be guided." Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi.

Do you agree ?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Well, the remaining tafseer are still specific to 12er view. Is that what you're asking ?

Basically are you happy with the few I removed. From your original list ?

Yes we can class them a specific to your view.

So we can go forward. ?

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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1 minute ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Well, all the hadiths I've mentionned are relevant, so I don't see why there's a need to remove them.

As we discussed I mentioned 3 and said they can apply to all Shia.

You desputed the 1st v hadith from Imam Baqir and I conceded that hadith for arguments sake to keep on track with our discussion.

Are saying all the hadith of the 3 I mentioned are specific to your creed ?

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Posted (edited)

They aren't super specific to only 12er creed (an Isma'ili might also use them), but what is important is that they don't apply to Zaidism.

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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8 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

They aren't super specific to only 12er creed (an Isma'ili might also use them), but what is important is that they don't apply to Zaidism.

That fine I believe all three can apply to Zaidi

but lets not get bogged down at this point we can just agree they apply to Imami but are not specific to 12er.

I want to address the "super specific" ones as there is not much room for interpretation. They are your creed.

So I'll continue. If that's ok to discussing the verses you presented and the tafseer.

 

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5 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 "O, you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you. And if you dispute concerning  anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favorable in outcome." (Qur'an 4:59)

1) Jabir b. 'Abd Allah al-Ansari says, "When the verse was revealed, I asked the Prophet (s), 'We know God and his Prophet (s), but who are Ulu l-Amr that God attached their obedience to your obedience?', the Prophet (s) said, 'They are my successors and imams of Muslims after me, first of them is 'Ali, then al-Hasan, then al-Husayn, then 'Ali b. al-Husayn, then Muhammad b. 'Ali,…' Qundūzī, Yanābīʿ al-Mawadda, p. 494.

2) Imam al-Baqir (a) says in the exegesis of the verse, "Ulu l-Amr are from the children of 'Ali (a) and Fatima (a), till the Day of Judgment." He also said, "By Ulu l-Amr, God only intended us and commanded all the faithful to obey us until the Day of Judgment." Baḥrānī, al-Burhān, p. 383, 386.

Imam al-Sadiq (a) says, "Ulu l-Amr are 3) 'Ali b. Abi Talib, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, 'Ali b. al-Husayn, Muhammad b. 'Ali and me, praise God that introduced your imams and leaders to you when people deny them. ʿAyyāshī, Tafsīr al-ʿAyyāshī, p. 252.

 

So the verse and tafsir you presented.

I want to first discuss the verse without your tafseer.

I believe the verse itself can apply to Sunni and Zaidi but can not apply to 12er.

The verse gives a general description of those in authority and puts a clause of disagreement. And returning to Allah and the messenger.

In Sunni and Zaidi any one in charge must hold to Qur'an and sunnah. Its why if there is a dispute you return to Allah and the messenger.

On the other hand your Imams are infallible chosen by Allah and free from error. There is no dispute and it's a given they hold to the Qur'an and sunnah.

The leaders mentioned here clearly have a clause to obeying them.

So without your specific Tasfseer I believe it excludes your beleif. 

Your tafseer is definitely required to apply this to your creed as a general reading is not sufficient.

Your thoughts brother ?

 

 

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Without tafseer, we can clearly understand that "those in authority" who must be obeyed are infallible, because when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to obey someone unconditionally, it results in his infallibility; because it's impossible for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to order us to obey someone who sins. Besides, the obedience of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is unconditionally necessary, due to his infallibility, so the obedience of Ulu l-Amr (who are mentionned immediatly after the prophet) is also unconditional and makes them infallible too. 

Besides, when the verse says: "And if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle", there's also no problem with it, because indeed, at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) the Muslims used to consult him regarding anything. But what happened AFTER he passed away ? The verse says: "refer it to Allah and the Apostle". Well, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) died, so how are we going to solve our disputes ? By consulting the Qur'an and Sunnah. But from who are we going to get the correct interpretation of the Qur'an and Sunnah ? From "those in authority" of course, since obeying them is like obeying Rasulallah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ! Our Imams obey the Qur'an and sunnah, they teach the Qur'an and sunnah and they posess the most authentic knowledge regarding the Qur'an and sunnah, that's why obeying them was made obligatory by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). By obeying "those in authority" (ie: the Imams), we are obeying Allah and the messenger.

From what I know, only the 12er school of thought believes that "those in authority" are infallible, chosen by Allah and free from error (just like the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was). With Sunnis, it's obvious that the caliphs weren't infallibles, and same thing with Zaidis, you have another meaning of infallibility that isn't similar to our definition.

The tafseer I mentionned simply explains that "those in authority" refers specifically to the 12 Imams. Without the tafseer, we can still see the characteristics of the Ulil Amr (that correspond perfectly with our 12ers characteristics of Imamah).

I hope I answered your question.

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34 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Without tafseer, we can clearly understand that "those in authority" who must be obeyed are infallible, because when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to obey someone unconditionally, it results in his infallibility; 

I completely disagree. Because if you do not come from a 12er perspective. A general reading does indicate a condition.

The condition is clearly there at the end of the verse.

To further demonstrate if you read the Qur'an when ever obey Allah and obey the messenger is mentioned there are no further clauses. 

The only time a 3rd party comes into it a condition is immediately put at the end.

This verse does not in any way show infallibility of those in authority.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

  But from who are we going to get the correct interpretation of the Qur'an and Sunnah ? 

We get it from fallible scholars. Who require a process to find and authenticate hadith with fallible transmission leading back to an infallible (Incase of Sunni Prophet, incase of Shia Prophet or infallible Imam.(

This process is followed by all groups except Ishmali who believe they have a present infallible imam directly guiding them.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

  But from who are we going to get the correct interpretation of the Qur'an and Sunnah ? 

Please ignore accidentally reposted.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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27 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I completely disagree. Because if you do not come from a 12er perspective. A general reading does indicate a condition.

The condition is clearly there at the end of the verse.

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say.

28 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

This verse does not in any way show infallibility of those in authority.

I believe however that I explained it very well. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not only tells us to obey someone, but that same someone shares the same obedience of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), [because the verse says "obey the messenger AND those in authority" then I find it more than logical that that someone is infallible, because there's simply no way that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would tell us to obey someone that makes mistakes (even less someone that sins), otherwise that would go against the justice of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Can you imagine if that someone who God ordered you to obey sins, that would be hypocrisy of the highest degree.

29 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

We get it from fallible scholars. Who require a process to find and authenticate hadith with fallible transmission leading back to an infallible.

This is only true after the end of the minor occultation. But otherwise, I would in a sense agree with you. However, since we 12ers believe that Imam Mahdi (atf) is still alive, he technically is the "one in authority from among us", and so we still must obey him by holding straight to the Qur'an and Sunnah (of the Ahlulbayt, of course).

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5 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you're trying to say.

Your opening statement was

"Without tafseer, we can clearly understand that "those in authority" who must be obeyed are infallible, because when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands to obey someone unconditionally"

i meant the opposite "conditional" or better way would have been there is a clause..

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