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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate) 3

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

I already answered these questions, but I'll repeat them again:

1) All the characteristics of imamah narrated by Sheikh Saduq are in the Qur'an. Since only the imams of the 12er school of thought posess these characteristics, then it's logical for the layman to look at the tafseer I presented.

2) The Qur'an makes it clear that imamah exists, as well as pointing out many times that someone (Imam Ali (as)) is the successor and authority after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It's even mentioned in their ahadeeth. But since Sunnis don't believe in any of this, they are excluded.

You have rightly quoted the truth. :grin:

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

1)For the example of prayer I was referring to the parts which every scholar agrees upon (number of rak'ats and sequence of the prayer). They all agree on these parts despite not being mentionned in the Qur'an. 

 2) All the characteristics of imamah narrated by Sheikh Saduq are in the Qur'an. 

3)According to the fundamentals you quoted, only following Imam Ali is fundamental ? When you say that following the other imams after him is not fundamental, what do you mean ? Isn't following Zaid what makes you a "Zaidi" ?

1) It's still fiqh, it's not aqeeda. A layman does not need to know the hadith and methodology that scholars agree upon to find rulings for prayer, hajj fasting etc. 

As for aqeeda the difference in Imamat between sects is not agreed upon. 

Again there is no blind following in aqeeda. We need to know as layman the how and why.

2) This is what we are discussing the verse of 12 leaders of Israelite is not specific (which you agreed upon). So now we are looking to your tafseer to link it to your sect.

So same question a layman who is not bias to 12er how would he know to choose your tafseer over Zaidi ?

Let's take it step by step (systematic) each verse and tafseer 1 by 1.

3) Yes the aqeeda is what I posted and we agreed to use each others definition. So in this discussion of aqeeda I only need to explain the Imamat of Ali bin Abi Talib.

As for why we are called Zaidi. It may be an early term coined by others for the followers of Zaids rebellion or maybe later due to the use of musnad Zaid for fiqh.

Either way Jafferi, Zaidi are just terms to group people. We are essentially both claiming to be orthodox/original Shia by way of our aqeeda. 

Ps I'll await your reply before discussing the succession of Imam Ali. As I feel you may have answered it in part yourself.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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22 hours ago, elite said:

First ‘Fa’ used in the verse 4:59 is a resumption particle (الفاء استئنافية). In that case second sentence has no grammatical link with the first even if there is a close in the topic

Like : They slept, and (fa) they don’t wake up

‘O you who believe obey Allah and obey messenger and those having amr’ is an independent clause and then resumption particle fa starts another clause. It does not put any condition on the previous statement.

Then another statement ‘if you differ in anything then(fa) refer it to Allah and his messenger.

Here ‘Fa’ in the second clause is  a result particle (الفاء واقعة في جواب الشرط): this one links to a condition
Like : If you are so sick then (fa) go to the doctor

 In the verse 4:59 first ‘ fa’ is not a result particle but a resumption particle.

fi in 4-59.png

Thank you. I'll reply to you post later as I'm sure me and @Mohamad Abdel-Hamid will come back to the verse towards the end of our discussion. So it will be more appropriate to reopen the topic then. As we have agreed to move on.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) It's still fiqh, it's not aqeeda. A layman does not need to know the hadith and methodology that scholars agree upon to find rulings for prayer, hajj fasting etc. 

As for aqeeda the difference in Imamat between sects is not agreed upon. 

Again there is no blind following in aqeeda. We need to know as layman the how and why.

2) This is what we are discussing the verse of 12 leaders of Israelite is not specific (which you agreed upon). So now we are looking to your tafseer to link it to your sect.

So same question a layman who is not bias to 12er how would he know to choose your tafseer over Zaidi ?

Let's take it step by step (systematic) each verse and tafseer 1 by 1.

3) Yes the aqeeda is what I posted and we agreed to use each others definition. So in this discussion of aqeeda I only need to explain the Imamat of Ali bin Abi Talib.

As for why we are called Zaidi. It may be an early term coined by others for the followers of Zaids rebellion or maybe later due to the use of musnad Zaid for fiqh.

Either way Jafferi, Zaidi are just terms to group people. We are essentially both claiming to be orthodox/original Shia by way of our aqeeda. 

Ps I'll await your reply before discussing the succession of Imam Ali. As I feel you may have answered it in part yourself.

The detailed view or answer from the quoted brother may come but due to some trickery statements  here I like to add some points here for clarity:

1.  The verses of quran are sufficient to confirm the principle of Immamat as taken by 12vers , as given below:

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. (2:124)

إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

 Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah , inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah . (16:120)

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." (3:84)

قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

 Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (2:136)

The principle of immamat of chosen leaders like Ibrahim (عليه السلام) is well defined in the verses of quran.  The believers have to believe in this principle.

Do we need any other view of one scholar to reinvent the wheel despite the verses of quran describe the principle in clear words? 

2.   The verse of 5:12 mentions clearly  12 leaders  chosen by Allah s.wt and they were divine leaders and not taken by the people themselves for their guidance etc. This is entirely inline with the concept of 12vers immamat.

I like you to quote a verse of quran that the people can choose their imams by themselves  instead of selection of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to justify your view. . Although Many hadith have also been quoted earlier to confirm that there are 12 imams equal to the count of naqeebs of bani israel (ie 12) in the nation of Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

3.   As you are asking us to present the proof for 12 Imams, I like to mention that we both Zaidy and 12vers agree on first three imams including Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam hussain (عليه السلام) without any doubt. You are just trying to push us to provide the evidence about 12 Imams/ caliphs/ leaders/ successors but you are neglecting the verses of quran already quoted like verse mentioning 12 months, verse mentioning 12 leaders. etc. and the relevant hadith also provide our view in earlier posts.

I like you to provide us the verses of quran that the people can choose imams instead of divine appoint First  to justify the  immamat of your imam Zaid bin Ali who we regards as Zaid shaheed , before proceeding further for the debate in this thread.

wasalam

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And I'll give the same answer. When the layman reads the Qur'an, he'll realize that an Imam:

1- Is divinely chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not by the people or by himself.

2- Is pure and infallible, that's why following and obeying him is obligatory.

3- Is always present. If an Imam passes away, a next Imam comes in line.

Given these 3 very important and fundamental points, the layman will see which group believes in these 3 points. He will realize that only the Twelver school of thought believes in these 3 points, contrary to other Islamic denominations. That's why the layman would logically choose the Twelver tafseer, it's that simple. Or am I really missing something ?

We've really spent some time discussing this issue, and it seem that we are only repeating what we're saying. That's why I ask you if you want to continue with the next theme ? It's up to you.

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1 hour ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

We've really spent some time discussing this issue, and it seem that we are only repeating what we're saying. That's why I ask you if you want to continue with the next theme ? It's up to you.

You are correct I think we both have exhausted our view point.

We can move to next verse. I'll first go through the Imamat of Imam Ali. 

Then we can continue.

Inshallah

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Just want to apologize for the late reply. I had a very busy week. (Like most Shia I suspect).

So to the final point of aqeeda from my position.

Wilayat of Imam Ali.


{Verily, your only Guardian (waliyakum) is
Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe—those who establish the prayer and render the alms while bowing (wa hum rāki’ūn)} (Q. 5:55)

Firstly the verse is both specific an unclear.

Specific in the topic "the only guardians"

Specific in criteria : bowing and giving alms

But non specific in the who ?

If you read the verse alone it makes non sense that anyone who bow and gives alms becomes a guardian of the believer.

So is there any hadith linking it to any individual/group.

It is specifically linked to Imam Ali in Sunni hadith from the following chains

Al-Khutayb related in al-Mutafaq on the authority of Ibn al-‘Abbās:
Abdur-Razzāq, Abid bin Humayd, Ibn Jarīr, Abu Shaykh, and Ibn Mardawayh narrated on the authority of Ibn al-‘Abbās

At-Tabarāni in al-Awsat and Ibn Mardawayh narrated on the authority of Ammār bin Yāsir:
Ibn Abi Hātim, Abu Shaykh, and Ibn Asākir related on the
authority of Salma bin Kuhayl:
Ibn Jarīr on the authority of as-Sadi and Utbah bin Hakīm.
- Ibn Mardawayh related in At-Tarīq al-Kalbi on the authority of Abi Sālih, on the authority of Ibn al-‘Abbās:

It reaches Mutawatir if you use the minimal Sunni criteria.

Beyond that 12er sources also confirm the mutawatir narration of the hadith.

No other individual can make that claim with such strong evidence.

So he is the only guardian of the believers along side the Prophet. 

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Posted (edited)

Second proof will be ghadeer. I assume we all know the extensive reporting of the hadith.

So as a layman I don't need to verify each chains due to the testimony of scholars across the board with differing aqeeda and motives.

Therefore these 2 proofs are sufficient.

I have not made any personal interpretation and used Mutawatir hadith for the tafseer of the verse. And used ghadeer for the appointment.

Note I have not relied on Zaidi hadith or scholarly opinion.

Points if aqeeda are big claims they need extensive and clear proof.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The evidence for Imam Ali goes beyond what I have posted. 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Yes do I agree with everything you said regarding Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and how it's even in extensive Sunni narrations.

However I just have a little comment from my part: with all due respect, I couldn't care less what non-12er narrations and hadiths say about a particular subject/belief, even less non-Shia (ie: Sunni literature). Yes, I get it that you are quoting from Sunni narrations to show how extensive the view is and how it agrees with our view of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), and that's really good, but if I want to learn about something, I'll obviously study it from my books (Twelver) the same way you'll study from your books (Zaidi). The only time I'll use non-12er books, like Zaidi and specially Sunni is when I'm discussing with a non-12er (a Zaidi like you, or a Sunni).

What I'm trying to say is that even if the Sunni narrations agree with my Shia views about a certain subject, it really doesn't matter because those books are not hujjah on me. If they agree, then it's ok. If they disagree, it's still ok. I just find it odd why we're quoting Sunni narrations when this is a Twelver-Zaidi discussion/debate. You get what I'm trying to say ?

But otherwise, yeah, if you want to continue with the next verse, then feel free to go ahead.

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Posted (edited)

I get your point but the whole point of the debate is to establish truth of an aqeeda.

As we both are layman we need to explain why and how we can arrive with certainty at the defined aqeeda

So I quoted Sunni narration and mentioned 12er and Zaidi as that was a given no need to quote those hadith. 

.Just relying on our own books is circular reasoning. Unless we can proove those hadith are mutawatir without any bias.

we should be able to proove fundamentals to someone looking into Islam who has no secular bias.

But I'll move onto the next verse.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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On 8/4/2021 at 3:52 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

"Indeed the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah’s Book, the day when He created the heavens and the earth. Of these, four are sacred. That is the upright religion. So do not wrong yourselves during them.1 Fight all the polytheists, just as they fight you all, and know that Allah is with the Godwary." (Qur'an 9:36)

 

Ok so next verse is clearly about month absolutely nothing indicates Imamat.

We would need to go to 12er tafsir.

As you mentioned with the previous verse 12 tribes. 

The reason you accept the tafsir was because of the 3 conditions you gave to accept Imami shiasm.

So both the verses of 12 tribes and 12 months can not be used as evidence as you must already accept the 3 conditions you mentioned.

Otherwise it's circular reasoning.

So in conclusion those 2 verses can not be used as evidence in this debate unless you can indepently give a reason to accept the tafseer.

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On 8/10/2021 at 10:22 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

:

1- Is divinely chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not by the people or by himself.

2- Is pure and infallible, that's why following and obeying him is obligatory.

3- Is always present. If an Imam passes away, a next Imam comes in line.

 

So these are the pints you mentioned of why you accept 12er tafseer.

*Note these should have been in your opening statement rather than the verses of 12 tribes and months.

So the points.

2) I guess we already discussed this with the verse of ulil Amr. We disagreed it will be worth returning to it later.

Point 1&2 where is your evidence so we can accept these points ?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Ok so next verse is clearly about month absolutely nothing indicates Imamat.

1. I here quote the verse with Arabic text :

 الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ ۚ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ ۚ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]. (9:36)

The verse mentions the concepts of, 12 Months and The Correct Religion

I present the other verses of quran to explore its meaning,

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30:30)

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

 Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has bee instructed to follow the Religion of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and it has been mentioned as correct religion.

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. (2:124)

 إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

 Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah , inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah . (16:120)

The above two verses confirm that religion of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that has concept of Imam / leader chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like the example of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been quoted in above two verses is to be followed and it is correct religion.

The above verses of quran prove that the religion including the Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the correct religion and it is connected to Twelve months out of  those four are sacred. 

2. The hadith relevant to discussion has already been mentioned in earlier post that i quote again:

Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36).”He (عليه السلام) breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The ‘year’ is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (S), and his family are its ‘months’ who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of ‘four sacred who are the firm religion’ are those four who have the same name, and are ‘Ali, the Commander of Faithful (عليه السلام), and my father ‘Ali Ibn al-Husayn (عليه السلام), and later ‘Ali Ibn Musa (عليه السلام), and ‘Ali Ibn Muhammad (عليه السلام). Thus acknowledging these four is ‘the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them’ and believe in all of them to be guided." Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi.

It is also included in Chapter 4, of book, Ghayaba, by Sheikh Naumani.

The narrators of this hadith include:

Ali bin al-Husayn narrated from Muhammad bin Yahya al-Attar from Muhammad bin Hassaan ar-Razi from Muhammad bin Ali al-Kufi from Ibraheem bin Muhammad bin Yousuf from Muhammad bin Eessa from Abdurrazak from Muhammad bin Sinan from Fudhayl ar-Rassan from Abu Hamza ath-Thimali, from Imam Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir

Thus it leaves no room that the verse is connected to 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Their presence in our nation is well proven and it is correct religion.

More hadith on 12 Imams can be mentioned /referred if required.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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11 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Ok so next verse is clearly about month absolutely nothing indicates Imamat.

We would need to go to 12er tafsir.

Yes, it is true that only the 12er tafsir plainly indicates that the months represent the holy imams.

Of course, this for me is enough, and you won't agree with the tafsir. But keep in mind that comparing the months to the imams CAN be possible, meaning that it's not something that is ridiculous and impossible, since in the Qur'an we can also see the family of nabi Ya'qub (عليه السلام) as being compared 11 stars, the sun and the moon. So even if you disagree, you can still see that it's a plausible and possible explanation, even if for you it's wrong.

11 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

As you mentioned with the previous verse 12 tribes. 

I forgot to mention this previously, but there are also Sunni books that have a similar narrations regarding to the 12 tribes, for example the hadith from  أحمد بن حنبل، مسند، ج 6، ص 321. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, vol 6, page 321, where he says that the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that there will be 12 leaders, "the same number as the naqibs of bani Isra'eel".

In fact, I already mentionned that there are numerous Sunni hadiths, including in Bukhari and Muslim, where they say that there will be 12 leaders/caliphs/rulers after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Of course, as I said earlier, I normally would never use non-12er sources, but for the sake of proving that this concept of "12 imams" is not only to the Ithna 'Ashariyya, but also in Sunni works.

Therefore I'm not relying only to my books, thus avoiding circular reasoning.

11 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The reason you accept the tafsir was because of the 3 conditions you gave to accept Imami shiasm.

So both the verses of 12 tribes and 12 months can not be used as evidence as you must already accept the 3 conditions you mentioned.

Of course I'm accepting the tafsir I presented because of the 3 conditions I mentionned. And no, it isn't me that gave these conditions, rather they are clearly found in the Qur'an, and I already mentionned the verses. Since these 3 conditions are in the Qur'an, then it's logical I will (and must) accept them and in conclusion I'll turn to 12er tafsir since only the 12ers accept these conditions.

I still don't get it, do you deny these 3 conditions, despite them being mentionned in the Qur'an ? Because I spent some time in Zaidi portal to read some of your works, and interestingly I found that these conditions are also present...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

I forgot to mention this previously, but there are also Sunni books that have a similar narrations regarding to the 12 tribes, for example the hadith from  أحمد بن حنبل، مسند، ج 6، ص 321. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, vol 6, page 321, where he says that the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that there will be 12 leaders, "the same number as the naqibs of bani Isra'eel".

 

This is good. As it strengthens your argument if you combine it with 12er hadith it gives corroboration and it paints a picture that is easier to follow even for a layman. 

Ill look into the hadith 

Please mention the other hadith of 12 found in Sunni books. As it will be something important for me to.look into.

*Also it's not that I'm refusing to except exclusive 12er hadith. I would accept but you need to proove they are mutawatir.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

I still don't get it, do you deny these 3 conditions, despite them being mentioned in the Qur'an ? Because I spent some time in Zaidi portal to read some of your works, and interestingly I found that these conditions are also present...

1) No not in the sense of Nas direct appointment is not necessary.

2) Infallibility is not required. We say it's the Imam should not be a sinner but they are fallible do the possibility of sin is there.

3) We currently have no Imam.

So I would like your proofs for points 1&3

If you have already mentioned them..I apologise for asking to repeat it.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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No problem.

Regarding the Sunni narrations of the 12 leaders:

1. I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

source:https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7222

2. I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: The affairs of the people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by twelve men. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said words which were obscure to me. I asked my father: What did the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say? He said: All of the (twelve men) will be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1821b

3. I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Prophet (ﷺ) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1821d

4. This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1821e

5. I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1821f

6. 'There will be twelve Amir after me."' He said: "Then he said something that I did not understand. So I asked the one who was next to me, who said that he(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had said: 'All of them are from Quraish."'

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2223

Some of their scholars even try to guess who these 12 are:

7. 'Abd Allah b. 'Umar is quoted as saying that the Twelve Imams are Abu Bakr b. Abi Quhafa, 'Umar b. al-Khattab, 'Uthman b. 'Affan, Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan, Yazid b. Mu'awiya, al-Saffah, al-Mansur al-'Abbasi, Jabir, Amin, Salam, Mahdi, and Amir al-'Asab.

Suyūṭī, Tārīkh al-khulafāʾ, p. 210.

8. Al-Suyuti holds that the Twelve Imams are: Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali (a), al-Hasan (a), Mu'awiya, 'Abd Allah b. al-Zubayr, and 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz. He then speculated that two other caliphs probably are al-Muhtadi al-'Abbasi and al-Zahir, both of whom were Abbasid Caliphs, since they were, according to al-Suyuti, righteous people. He then adds that the two other caliphs remain that we should wait for: one of them is al-Mahdi who is one of the Prophet's (s) Ahl al-Bayt (a), and the other he does not mention.

Suyūṭī, Tārīkh al-khulafāʾ, p. 10-12.

9. Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani agrees with Qadi 'Ayad that the twelve caliphs are: Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman, 'Ali (a), Mu'awiya, Yazid, 'Abd al-Malik b. Marwan, Walid b. 'Abd al-Malik, Sulayman b. 'Abd al-Malik, Yazid b. 'Abd al-Malik, Hisham b. 'Abd al-Malik, and Walid b. Yazid b. 'Abd al-Malik.

Ibn Ḥajar, Fatḥ al-bārī, vol. 13, p. 214.

10. Al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi cited the hadith and then said that a close look into hadiths according to which the caliphs after the Prophet (s) are twelve reveals that by those twelve caliphs he meant the Twelve Imams from his own Ahl a-Bayt (a). He holds that the hadith does not refer to the Rashidun Caliphs since their number is smaller than twelve. It does not refer to Umayyad or Abbasid kings either, since their number is greater than twelve. Moreover, some of them were vicious and unjust people, and were not committed to Islamic rulings, except 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz. What is more, Banu Umayya were not from Banu Hashim, but the Prophet (s), according to 'Abd al-Malik's narration from Jabir, said that they are all from Banu Hashim. So the hadith can only refer to the Twelve Imams from the Prophet's (s) Ahl al-Bayt (a), since they were the most knowledgeable as well as the most pious people of their time, and were superior to others with respect to their acts and genealogy. Most important of all, they had inherited their knowledge from their ancestor, the Prophet Muhammad (s). Al-Qunduzi also appeals to hadiths, such as Hadith al-Thiqlayn, to support his view.

Qundūzī, Yanābīʿ al-mawadda, vol. 2, p. 535.

11. This Ummat will not end and the Day of Judgment will not come, till the coming of 12 Khalifas, they will be guided, on the Deen of Truth.

Abdul Juldh, Fathul Bari Volume 13 page 79

12. Allamah Badradaen Aini in Ummdthul Qari Sharah Sahih Bukhari narrates: ‘This Ummah will not end until the passing of the twelve, they will all be true guides from the Ahlulbayt.’

Ummdthul Qari Volume 2 page 282 and Volume 9 page 8

13. The Prophet of Allah said that I am the Chief of Prophets, Ali is the Chief of Wasi, after me there will be 12 Wasi, 1st of them is Ali (عليه السلام), last of them is Mahdi.

Faslul khitab page 423, Ya Nabi al Muwaddat page 105 (Beirut)

I couldn't really a link for the last 7 points, but I do hope the sources given are accurrate.

And here are other Sunni narrations that also agree with 12er view of Imamate:

14. The Caliphate will remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left (on the earth).

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1820

15. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "This matter (caliphate) will remain with the Quraish even if only two of them were still existing."

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7140

So these 2 hadiths prove that an Imam is must always be present.

16. This VERY interesting Sunni hadith even says that all of the imams will be killed (imam here can't be a Sunni caliph, since many of them died a natural death and many of them weren't fought):

"By the One in Whose Hand is my soul! The Hour will not be established until you fight your A'immah, and you strike each other with your swords, and your world will be inherited by the evilest among you."

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2170

17. Here it says that obeying the Imam is like obeying Prophet, which is like obeying Allah, further proving that obeying the Imam is obligatory, hence resulting in his infallibility:

“Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, And whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys the ruler, obeys me, and whoever disobeys the ruler, disobeys me.”

https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:2859    If you read the text in Arabic, it says Imam for ruler and not ameer.

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As for points 1) & 3):

1) We already saw and agreed that the verse "today I have perfected for you your religion" is a reference for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) being announced as the successor/caliph/imam after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and it's clear that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose Imam Ali (عليه السلام) since he's ordering the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to announce him as his successor. Besides, this is logical with the sunnah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) since everywhere we see in the Qur'an, it's Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that appoints someone to rule over people.

He even says that he will appoint a caliph on the earth for the 1st human, nabi Adam (عليه السلام).

We can see that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose for example Talut as a king for the Israelites.

It's more than obvious that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose the Prophets to guide people.

We agree that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself appointed Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as an Imam, as well as promising HIMSELF to Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to appoint imams from his just offspring.

We also saw that the Qur'an clearly says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose the 12 naqibs of Bani Isra'eel.

We agreed that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be the leader.

Then how come that the later imams, a direct appointment is not necessary when literally from the beginning of humanity there was a direct appointment for every leader ? Ali bin Abi Taleb was an imam chosen by God, but another imam 100 years later is not chosen by God ? Are we talking about the same position of "imamah" here or not ???

3) I quoted the verse: "Verily you are a warner and for every nation there is a guide" (Qur'an 13:7). We can see that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is saying that every nation has a guide. If there isn't currently an imam, then who is the "guide" that we have today in our nations ?

And this is where I see that in your books (Zaidi), it says that an Imam should always be present, so allow to present the works:

This is in Musnad Zaid, page 235:

Imam Zaid bin Ali ( may Allah be pleased with him ) narrated that Imam Ali bin Abi-Talib ( may Allah be pleased with him ) said " Whoever dies and did not know who is the Imam then he died like Jahelia if the Imam was just and pious"

Also in A commentary on Al-Hadi's “THE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE RELIGION”, page 352, it says: all Shi’ite groups narrate the hadīth: ((The People of my House are like the stars to my community. Whenever a star falls, another rises)).

And this is in Sahifa Sajjadiya, page 142-143 (which is in Zaidi Portal, by the way):

O Allah, surely Thou hast confirmed Thy religion in all times with an Imam whom Thou hast set up as a guidepost to Thy servants and a lighthouse in Thy lands, after his cord has been joined to Thy cord! Thou hast appointed him the means to Thy good pleasure, made obeying him obligatory, cautioned against disobeying him, and commanded following his commands, abandoning his prohibitions, and that no forward-goer go ahead of him or back-keeper keep back from him! So he is the preservation of the shelterseekers, the cave of the faithful, the handhold of the adherents, and the radiance of the worlds!

Are these proofs good enough ?

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I just learned today that there is Shia 12ers and 5ers…..etc 

 

my question does it matter if your a 5er or 12er? Do you guys really fight about this? I thought all Shias believe in the same thing. 
 

if it doesn’t make a difference than why even argue about it ? I can’t wrap my head about why the imams are that important. 

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2 hours ago, Guest Reply said:

I just learned today that there is Shia 12ers and 5ers…..etc 

 

my question does it matter if your a 5er or 12er? Do you guys really fight about this? I thought all Shias believe in the same thing. 
 

if it doesn’t make a difference than why even argue about it ? I can’t wrap my head about why the imams are that important. 

Then you should let the adults continue the discussion and learn.

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18 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

1. I here quote the verse with Arabic text :

 الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ ۚ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ ۚ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

Indeed, the number of months with Allah is twelve [lunar] months in the register of Allah [from] the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, four are sacred. That is the correct religion, so do not wrong yourselves during them. And fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively. And know that Allah is with the righteous [who fear Him]. (9:36)

The verse mentions the concepts of, 12 Months and The Correct Religion

I present the other verses of quran to explore its meaning,

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30:30)

قُلْ إِنَّنِي هَدَانِي رَبِّي إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ دِينًا قِيَمًا مِّلَّةَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ حَنِيفًا ۚ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

 Say, "Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path - a correct religion - the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not among those who associated others with Allah ." (6:161)

The prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has bee instructed to follow the Religion of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and it has been mentioned as correct religion.

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. (2:124)

 إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًا وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

 Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah , inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah . (16:120)

The above two verses confirm that religion of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) that has concept of Imam / leader chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like the example of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been quoted in above two verses is to be followed and it is correct religion.

The above verses of quran prove that the religion including the Imam chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the correct religion and it is connected to Twelve months out of  those four are sacred. 

A correction in Arabic text is made for the following verses that was observed because of mistake in copying the text:

فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا

ۚ فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ

وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30:30)

 إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ كَانَ أُمَّةً قَانِتًا لِّلَّهِ حَنِيفًا

وَلَمْ يَكُ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

 Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah , inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah . (16:120)

wasalam

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

And here are other Sunni narrations that also agree with 12er view of Imamate:.

The following link mentions the hadith with the Names of 12 Imams from sunni sources:

All the 12 names can be read from the hadith.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 7/22/2021 at 4:48 AM, Zaidism said:

Here are some debate propositions which one can argue for/against 

•  ‘ilm Al-Ghayab 

• Occult Imamate 

• The designation of 9 particular Imams after Imam Hussein عليه السلام 

• Which sect follows the Ahlulbayt 

• Infallibility 

•  Tradition 

:bismillah:

:salam:

 

Dear brothers

All these points are covered by just the Hadith of the two weighty things, if one looks at the hadith with a little depth and understanding. 

And just by virtue of this hadith, when understood by other hadith and aya, tells you unequivocally that there is no theology that comes even close except for the Ithna Asheri theology and madhab in fulfilling the criteria of the hadith and all your above queries. 

 

:ws:

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

We agreed that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be the leader.

Then how come that the later imams, a direct appointment is not necessary when literally from the beginning of humanity there was a direct appointment for every leader ? Ali bin Abi Taleb was an imam chosen by God, but another imam 100 years later is not chosen by God ? Are we talking about the same position of "imamah" here or not ???

In line of truth mentioned in verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), i also mention the authentic  hadith (given at following link) from shia source for the names of 12 Imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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14 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Please mention the other hadith of 12 found in Sunni books. As it will be something important for me to.look into.

*Also it's not that I'm refusing to except exclusive 12er hadith. I would accept but you need to proove they are mutawatir.

From all the quoted hadith for 12 Imams from sunni and shia sources it is well proven that this hadith is mutawater.

wasalam

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

In line of truth mentioned in verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), i also mention the authentic  hadith (given at following link) from shia source for the names of 12 Imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

Another hadith for the names of 14 individuals including the prophet saaw & 12 Imams from his progeny is mentioned below:

حدثنا احمد بن محمد بن عبید اللہ الحافظ (ر) قال: حدثنی علی بن سنان الموصلی قال : حدثنا احمد بن (محمد الخلیلی الاملی قال حدثنا) محمد بن صالح قال: حدثنی سلیمان بن اھمد قال: حدثنی زیاد بن مسلم (قال حدثنی) عبدالرحمان بن یزید بن جابر قال: حدثنی سلام عن ابی سلمی راعی رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ و آلہ قال:

سمعت رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ و آلہ یقول : لیلۃ اسری بی (الی السما ٔ قال لی الجلیل جل جلالہ) (آمن الرسول بما انزل الیہ من ربہ ۔ قلت . و المومنون کل آمن باللہ و ملأکۃ و کتبہ و رسولہ قال: صدقت یا محمد من خلفت فی امتک قلت : خیر ھا۔

قال: علی بن ابیٔ طالب علیہ السلام؟ قلت : نعم یا رب۔ قال: یا محمد انی اطلعت الی الارض (اطلا عۃ) فاخترتک منھا فشققتلک اسمأ من اسمایٔ فلا اذکر فی موضع الا ذکرت معی، فانا المحمود و انت محمد ثم اطلعت الثا نیۃ فاخترت منھا علیا، فشققت لہ اسمأ من اسما یٔ فانا (العلی) الاعلی و ھو علی ۔

یامحمدانی خلقتک و (خلقت) علیا و فاطمۃ و الحسن و الحسین و الامٔۃ من ولدہ من سنخ نوری ، و عرضت و لا یتکم علی اہل السماوات و اہل الارضین فمن قبلھا کان عندی من المومنین ، و من جحد ھا کان عندی من الکا فرین۔ یا محمد ان عبدا من عبیدی عبدنی حتی ینقطع و یصیر کالشن البالی ثم اتانی جا حدا لو لایتکم ما غفرت لہ یقر بو لایتکم ۔

یا محمد ا تحب ان تراھم؟ قلت : نعم یا رب ۔ فقال لی : التفت عن یمین العرش ۔ فالتفت فاذا انأ بعلی و فاطمۃ و الحسن و الحسین و علی بن الحسین و محمد بن علی و جعفر بن محمد و موسی بن جعفر و علی بن موسی و محمد بن علی و علی بن محمد و الحسن بن علی و المھدی فی ضحضاح من نور ، قیام یصلون و ھو فی و سطھم یعنی المھدی ۔ یضی کانہ کوکب دری۔

فقال : یا محمد ھو لأ الحجج و ھو الثا ٔر من عترتک ، فو عزتی و جلالی انہ النا صر لاو لیا یٔ ، و المنتقم من اعدایٔ و لھم الحجۃ الواجبۃ و بھم یمسک اللہ السماوات ان تقع علی الارض الا باذنہ ۔

Ahmed b Muhammad b Ubaidillah Al-Hafiz narrated from Ali b Sinan Al-Mousili from Ahmad b Muhammad Al-Khalili Al-Amoli, from Muhammad b Saleh, from Sulaymaan b Ahmad, from Ziyad b Muslim, from Abdul Rahman b Yazid b Jabir, from Salaam from Abi Salama, who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (saww) say:

On the night of Meraaj, Allah asked me, “Did the messenger believe in what was revealed to him from his Lord?”

I said “Yes”, And the believers believed in Allah, His angels, His books and His messengers.”

Allah said “You are right”.

Then Allah asked, “ Who did you choose as a successor?”

I said, “The best of my nation”.Allah asked “ Do you mean Ali bin Abi Talib”?

I replied, “ Yes, O Allah”.

Then Allah said:

O Muhammad! I looked at all of My creation and I chose you from among all of them. Then I derived a name for you from My name. Therefore, it is not permitted that anyone mention Me without you with Me. My name is Mahmoud and your name is Muhammad. Then I looked again (at all of My creation) and I chose Ali, and I derived a name for him from My name. So My name is Ali, the extremely high, and his name is Ali. O Muhammad I created you, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the rest of Imams from Hussain’s sons from My own light. Then I asked all of my creations in the skies and the earths to accept your Wilayat. I consider those who accept it as believers, and I consider those who refuse it as Kafirs.

O Muhammad! If a slave from among My slaves worships me until he is torn and nothing is left from him, but he refuses to accept your Wilayat, Ali’s Wilayat, and the Wilayat of the Imams from his sons, I will not accept him or forgive him until he accepts your Wilayat, Ali’s Wilayat and the Wilayat of the Imams from his sons.

Then Allah asked me, “O Muhammad, would you like to see them?”

I replied. “Yes, O Allah”.

Allah said, “Look to the right of the Throne.”

Then I looked and I saw Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain, Ali bin Hussain’ Mohammad bin Ali, Jaafar bin Muhammad, Musa bin Jaafar, Ali bin Musa, Muhammad bin Ali, Ali bin Muhammad, Hassan bin Ali, and the Mahdi. They were surrounded by light and they were standing and praying to Allah. Mahdi was in the center and he was shining like a brilliant star.

Then Allah said:

O Muhammad, they are My decisive proofs, and Mahdi will take revenge on My behalf. I swear by My Magnificence, he supports My friends and takes Revenge on My enemies. Following them and accepting their Wilayat is WAJIB (obligatory) on everyone. With My permission they prevent the skies from Falling on the earth.

Reference:  - Bihar ul Anwar, V27 p199 h27

                   - 100 Virtues of Imam Ali AS and his sons by Ibne Shazan

                     and others.      

 

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  • Veteran Member
On 8/30/2021 at 9:14 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Another hadith for the names of 14 individuals including the prophet saaw & 12 Imams from his progeny is mentioned below:

حدثنا احمد بن محمد بن عبید اللہ الحافظ (ر) قال: حدثنی علی بن سنان الموصلی قال : حدثنا احمد بن (محمد الخلیلی الاملی قال حدثنا) محمد بن صالح قال: حدثنی سلیمان بن اھمد قال: حدثنی زیاد بن مسلم (قال حدثنی) عبدالرحمان بن یزید بن جابر قال: حدثنی سلام عن ابی سلمی راعی رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ و آلہ قال:

سمعت رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ و آلہ یقول : لیلۃ اسری بی (الی السما ٔ قال لی الجلیل جل جلالہ) (آمن الرسول بما انزل الیہ من ربہ ۔ قلت . و المومنون کل آمن باللہ و ملأکۃ و کتبہ و رسولہ قال: صدقت یا محمد من خلفت فی امتک قلت : خیر ھا۔

قال: علی بن ابیٔ طالب علیہ السلام؟ قلت : نعم یا رب۔ قال: یا محمد انی اطلعت الی الارض (اطلا عۃ) فاخترتک منھا فشققتلک اسمأ من اسمایٔ فلا اذکر فی موضع الا ذکرت معی، فانا المحمود و انت محمد ثم اطلعت الثا نیۃ فاخترت منھا علیا، فشققت لہ اسمأ من اسما یٔ فانا (العلی) الاعلی و ھو علی ۔

یامحمدانی خلقتک و (خلقت) علیا و فاطمۃ و الحسن و الحسین و الامٔۃ من ولدہ من سنخ نوری ، و عرضت و لا یتکم علی اہل السماوات و اہل الارضین فمن قبلھا کان عندی من المومنین ، و من جحد ھا کان عندی من الکا فرین۔ یا محمد ان عبدا من عبیدی عبدنی حتی ینقطع و یصیر کالشن البالی ثم اتانی جا حدا لو لایتکم ما غفرت لہ یقر بو لایتکم ۔

یا محمد ا تحب ان تراھم؟ قلت : نعم یا رب ۔ فقال لی : التفت عن یمین العرش ۔ فالتفت فاذا انأ بعلی و فاطمۃ و الحسن و الحسین و علی بن الحسین و محمد بن علی و جعفر بن محمد و موسی بن جعفر و علی بن موسی و محمد بن علی و علی بن محمد و الحسن بن علی و المھدی فی ضحضاح من نور ، قیام یصلون و ھو فی و سطھم یعنی المھدی ۔ یضی کانہ کوکب دری۔

فقال : یا محمد ھو لأ الحجج و ھو الثا ٔر من عترتک ، فو عزتی و جلالی انہ النا صر لاو لیا یٔ ، و المنتقم من اعدایٔ و لھم الحجۃ الواجبۃ و بھم یمسک اللہ السماوات ان تقع علی الارض الا باذنہ ۔

Ahmed b Muhammad b Ubaidillah Al-Hafiz narrated from Ali b Sinan Al-Mousili from Ahmad b Muhammad Al-Khalili Al-Amoli, from Muhammad b Saleh, from Sulaymaan b Ahmad, from Ziyad b Muslim, from Abdul Rahman b Yazid b Jabir, from Salaam from Abi Salama, who said:

I heard the Messenger of Allah (saww) say:

On the night of Meraaj, Allah asked me, “Did the messenger believe in what was revealed to him from his Lord?”

I said “Yes”, And the believers believed in Allah, His angels, His books and His messengers.”

Allah said “You are right”.

Then Allah asked, “ Who did you choose as a successor?”

I said, “The best of my nation”.Allah asked “ Do you mean Ali bin Abi Talib”?

I replied, “ Yes, O Allah”.

Then Allah said:

O Muhammad! I looked at all of My creation and I chose you from among all of them. Then I derived a name for you from My name. Therefore, it is not permitted that anyone mention Me without you with Me. My name is Mahmoud and your name is Muhammad. Then I looked again (at all of My creation) and I chose Ali, and I derived a name for him from My name. So My name is Ali, the extremely high, and his name is Ali. O Muhammad I created you, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and the rest of Imams from Hussain’s sons from My own light. Then I asked all of my creations in the skies and the earths to accept your Wilayat. I consider those who accept it as believers, and I consider those who refuse it as Kafirs.

O Muhammad! If a slave from among My slaves worships me until he is torn and nothing is left from him, but he refuses to accept your Wilayat, Ali’s Wilayat, and the Wilayat of the Imams from his sons, I will not accept him or forgive him until he accepts your Wilayat, Ali’s Wilayat and the Wilayat of the Imams from his sons.

Then Allah asked me, “O Muhammad, would you like to see them?”

I replied. “Yes, O Allah”.

Allah said, “Look to the right of the Throne.”

Then I looked and I saw Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain, Ali bin Hussain’ Mohammad bin Ali, Jaafar bin Muhammad, Musa bin Jaafar, Ali bin Musa, Muhammad bin Ali, Ali bin Muhammad, Hassan bin Ali, and the Mahdi. They were surrounded by light and they were standing and praying to Allah. Mahdi was in the center and he was shining like a brilliant star.

Then Allah said:

O Muhammad, they are My decisive proofs, and Mahdi will take revenge on My behalf. I swear by My Magnificence, he supports My friends and takes Revenge on My enemies. Following them and accepting their Wilayat is WAJIB (obligatory) on everyone. With My permission they prevent the skies from Falling on the earth.

Reference:  - Bihar ul Anwar, V27 p199 h27

                   - 100 Virtues of Imam Ali AS and his sons by Ibne Shazan

                     and others.      

 

 ۖ وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَىٰ مَنِ اتَّبَعَ الْهُدَىٰ

and peace is on him who follows the guidance; (20:47)

*اَللَّهُمَّےصـلِّےِعَلَى مُحَمَّــدٍوَآلِےِمُحَمَّــدٍ*وعجل فرجھم
 

wasalam 

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@Mohamad Abdel-Hamid

Thank you for debating. I took the time to relook at 12er. Which was sparked from your answers.

And although I still disagree with your aqeeda. I feel there is no point debating as there is still alot of truth within your madhab.

And more need is required for everyone to look critically at there own sect to see where they can correct rather than pointing the finger.

I'm going to move away from Shia chat for a while to continue research.

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@Ali bin Hussein

You're more than welcome dear brother. I myself have also learned a lot about the Zaid madhab, so we both have learned here.

What I liked about this debate is that it was an honest and civil discussion, with points being brought up by both groups in order to point their claims. I hope the reader can learn as well from our conversation.

Take care, wassalaam !

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