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In the Name of God بسم الله

Zaydi - Twelver (Debate) 3

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7 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

I believe however that I explained it very well. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not only tells us to obey someone, but that same someone shares the same obedience of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), [because the verse says "obey the messenger AND those in authority" then 

I do believe you explained it well but doesn't mean it's correct.

Let's look a bit further. You seem to give importance to the first part of the verse obey. But it seems you don't give much importance the end of the verse the disagreement and needing to go back to. Allah and the messenger.

I believe you made a refferance to the verse regarding the Prophet and consultation.

So if the obey as you put is unconditional and infers the same infallibility of the Prophet to those in authority.

Please expand on the last part of the verse what is this disagreement and why do we need to go back to Allah and the Prophet.

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I think I got what you're trying to say, so let me explain:

The verse adresses the believers, as it says in the beginning "O you who believe", so later when it says "if you disagree over anything", it means when the believers disagree or have a problem within themselves, and not with "the ones with authority" (so it's an internal dispute amongst the believers). And that's more than logical because Allah commands us to obey them, so how can the believers disagree with them ?

As for why it says later to only "refer it to Allah and the Messenger" and excludes the "one with authority", again, this shouldn't be a problem since if we also refer our problems to "the ones with authority", it's the same as referring it to the messenger. I already explained how "the ones with authority" have the same obedience of the messenger, since they are his representatives and share the same qualities (infallibility, chosen by Allah, etc...). When the messenger dies, how can we refer our disputes to him ? By referring it to his representatives, so when the Quran says "refer to Allah and the Messenger" it can be concluded assuming Ulil-Amri are the successors, that each one of them represents the "Messenger" and referring to them, is refer to the Messenger.

I'm pretty sure that as a Shia, you agree with: "Man kuntu mawlah, fa Ali mawlah". Imam Ali (عليه السلام), who is the "one with authority", represents the messenger, and every believer should obey him with the same obedience of the messenger. And more proof that Ali literally represented the messenger: "If anyone disputes this with you now that you have been given this knowledge, say, ‘Come, let us gather our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, and let us pray earnestly and invoke God’s rejection on those of us who are lying." (Qur'an 3:61) Practically all Muslims agree that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) represented the "self" of Rasulallah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

To make it simpler, the verse says:

"obey Allah, the messenger and ulil amr. If you have a problem, refer it to Allah and the messenger."

Here you're asking why doesn't the verse later say to also refer our problems to the ulil amr ? Now imagine if instead the verse was:

"obey Allah and the messenger. If you have a problem, refer it to Allah."

Why doesn't it say to also refer our problems to the messenger ?

I hope this time I explained it better.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/5/2021 at 1:56 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

To make it simpler, the verse says:

"obey Allah, the messenger and ulil amr. If you have a problem, refer it to Allah and the messenger."

Here you're asking why doesn't the verse later say to also refer our problems to the ulil amr ? Now imagine if instead the verse was:

"obey Allah and the messenger. If you have a problem, refer it to Allah."

Why doesn't it say to also refer our problems to the messenger ?

I hope this time I explained it better.

 

Ok so we are both reading the verse from our already preconceived beleifs.

So again let's look at the verse unbiased and without tafseer.

So I agree that the disagreement maybe with the believers rather than Ulil amr. This is possible from just reading the verse

But it is also possible the disagreement maybe with the ulil amr. 

Your argument about infallibility and needing to access the sunnah through them is based on being and Imami Shia. As you are trying to proove your creed using the verse you can't rely on assumptions of infallibility of ulil Amr.

Let's go step by step

Possible readings :

1) The disagreement is with the ulil Amr

2) Disagreement between believers not ulil Amr. Then guidance is to go back to Allah and the Prophet without mentioning ulil Amr so the resolution does not require ulil amr.

3) The disagreement is between the believers and resolution is through Allah and the Prophet, which is accessed through the ulil Amr 

Let's analyse the 3 position

1)  obey is not the same as Allah and Prophet as u can disagree with ulil Amr

2) So again the obey now becomes conditional as ultimate authority is to Allah and Prophet ulil Amr not mentioned as part of the resolution.

3) (which I believe you are saying)

Supports your belief but is a very strange reading. Obey A,B,C if X disagree then they go to A&B which is accessed through C. But C not directly mentioned. 

A very strange and long winded way to say obey C and if there are any problems seek guidance from C

3) Also requires the assumption that  Qur'an and sunnah can only be accessed through Ulil Amr.  Nothing in the verse indicates this (other than your insistence Obey Prophet and ulil Amr means this indirectly)

My conclusion is 1&2 are the clearest and simplist readings. And both support my claim.

How to move forward:

1) 1& 2 are possible we can explore it further to see who it supports

2) only reading 2 is possible (again I'm happy to ignore 1 for arguments sake) and we can explore it further  

3) You disagree and favour 3 but believe all the readings are possible. I'll entertain reading 3 and we can move to tafseer for an explanation. To see which reading is correct.

4) If you insist on reading 3 as the only possible reading then tafseer won't help as the plain reading of the verse (according to you) therefore it only supports Imami Shia . So we can agree to disagree on the reading and move onto the next verse you mentioned.

Your thoughts ?

 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

But it is also possible the disagreement maybe with the ulil amr. 

It is not possible at all. Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) issue the command of obedience if people have the right to disobey the ulil amr? 

For your information there is another verse in the same chapter which mentions referring to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ulil Amr:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

4:83 

 

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Looks like we are unnecessarily complicating a simple matter. I'll say it once again: I disagree with the first 2 positions and agree only with the 3rd reading.

The 1st reading "The disagreement is with the ulil Amr" is out of question, because the verse clearly says: "O you who believe, obey Allah, and obey the messenger and the ulil amr". Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is literally commanding the believers to obey the ulil amr, so how on earth will you disagree with them ??? There is absolutely no bias nor any tafseer needed to understand that obeying these "ulil amr" is wajib by the command of Allah, and that disagreeing with them is to disagree with Allah.

As for the 2nd reading, I also believe I already explained it, so I don't want to repeat my arguments.

As for my analogy, it's also very logical:

Obey A, B and C. If X has a problem (with themselves and not with C, as already proven), then go to A and B.

You're saying that according to this analogy, we don't need to go to C. But this contradicts the statement, because it clearly says to obey C, so going to C to solve a problem is the same as going to A and B, even if C is not directly mentionned in the 2nd part of the sentence. Otherwise, why were we told to obey C ? From my point of view, you're saying: obey A, B an C, but if you have a problem then go only to A and B. What about C, are they wrong ? Why must we supposedly obey C if at the end we can't go to him ???

So yeah, in order to move forward, I'll go with number 4), and it seems we'll agree to disagree, so I believe it's better to continue with the next verse.

(I just want to repeat this again, these are MY views, I don't know if there's any scholar that maybe agrees with the others readings, so if any of you twelver borthers are reading this and want to object, feel free to intervene. As I said in the beginning of this "discussion", I'm only a layman and not a hawza expert, so it's possible for me to make mistakes :D)

 

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

For your information there is another verse in the same chapter which mentions referring to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ulil Amr:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

4:83 

Wow, amazing !

According to the same logic, since it only says the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ulil Amr, it's not necessary to go to Allah :woot: !

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

It is not possible at all. Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) issue the command of obedience if people have the right to disobey the ulil amr? 

For your information there is another verse in the same chapter which mentions referring to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ulil Amr:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا

4:83 

 

It would have been really great to debate you brother. But you refused my request. So excuse me please if I don't reply to you posts as I prefer to focus on my discussion with brother Abdul hameed.

@Mohamad Abdel-Hamid if there is anything you see in other posts you see valid. Please restructure it into your own answer so we can keep our good flow of discussion going. Jzk.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

. I'll say it once again: I disagree with the first 2 positions and agree only with the 3rd reading.

 

No problem. We have made our points. 

We disagree let's move on.

Others can view our statements and think for themselves.

As you said we can move on to the next verses of your opening evidence.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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"O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and be with the Truthful" (Qur'an 9:119)

So this verse is straight forward. But unspecific we all agree to be with the truthful. So would require tafseer.

Shall we move to your tafseer or do you believe a plain reading of this verse is specific to your creed ?

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No, this time you're correct. Only tafseer indicates that the "thruthful" is a reference to the Imams, otherwise I believe the verse is unspecific.

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On 8/5/2021 at 2:50 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

I completely disagree. Because if you do not come from a 12er perspective. A general reading does indicate a condition.

The condition is clearly there at the end of the verse.

To further demonstrate if you read the Qur'an when ever obey Allah and obey the messenger is mentioned there are no further clauses. 

The only time a 3rd party comes into it a condition is immediately put at the end.

This verse does not in any way show infallibility of those in authority.

 

 

As for verse 4:59

4:59) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

The obedience to Ulil-Amr has been imposed upon us the same way and same manner as obedience to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). so by no means, you can disagree with the Ulil-Amr.

The next part of Ayah says if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). it doesn't say if you disagree with ulil-amr, refer back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Lets just say, we disagree with each other on Imamah. What do we do? Refer back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said Obey him, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and ulil-amr. So again we are bound to obey ulil-amr.

Verse mentions unconditional obedience to ulil-amr.

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4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

As for verse 4:59

4:59) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

The obedience to Ulil-Amr has been imposed upon us the same way and same manner as obedience to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). so by no means, you can disagree with the Ulil-Amr.

The next part of Ayah says if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). it doesn't say if you disagree with ulil-amr, refer back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Lets just say, we disagree with each other on Imamah. What do we do? Refer back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said Obey him, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and ulil-amr. So again we are bound to obey ulil-amr.

Verse mentions unconditional obedience to ulil-amr.

Another ayah:

وَاِذَا جَآءَهُمۡ اَمۡرٌ مِّنَ الۡاَمۡنِ اَوِ الۡخَـوۡفِ اَذَاعُوۡا بِهٖ ۚ وَلَوۡ رَدُّوۡهُ اِلَى الرَّسُوۡلِ وَاِلٰٓى اُولِى الۡاَمۡرِ مِنۡهُمۡ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِيۡنَ يَسۡتَنۡۢبِطُوۡنَهٗ مِنۡهُمۡؕ وَلَوۡلَا فَضۡلُ اللّٰهِ عَلَيۡكُمۡ وَرَحۡمَتُهٗ لَاتَّبَعۡتُمُ الشَّيۡطٰنَ اِلَّا قَلِيۡلًا‏ 

(4:83) Whenever they come upon any news bearing upon either security or causing consternation they go about spreading it, whereas if they were to convey it to either the Messenger or to those from among them who are entrusted with authority, it would come to the knowledge of those who are competent to investigate it.112 But for Allah's bounty and mercy upon you, (weak as you were) all but a few of you would surely have followed Satan

In this verse, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes no distinction in referring back to Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and ulil-amr which further proves unconditional obedience to ulil-amr in ayah 59.

There is no difference only if source of knowledge of both messenger and ulil-amr is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, else there would've been difference in referring back to Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and some other fallible person.

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So here is the tafseer you provided :

2) Burayd said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (a) about the Allah's almighty saying as says: Be wary of Allah, and be with the Truthful; he (a) replied: We are meant. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, vol.1 p.208

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Posted (edited)

 

I don't require to go into the authenticity of this hadith. As a Zaidi I could easily the content of this hadith if discussing with a sunni for example. 

As I previously stated we believe Imam Baqir is truthful. 

And is from among the imams of Ahlulbayt.

You didn't accept he was a Zaidi Imam.

 

So I have 2 questions 

1) what kind of proof would be suitable to show Imam Baqir is considered an imam by us

2) are there any other more specific tafseer you have.

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Posted (edited)

Also I want to add if someone unbiased is reading the verse and using the Qur'an as its own tafsir. 2 verses directly adress who are truthful:

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah. It is those who are the truthful. 49:15

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful. 59:8

With these verses present. The general application of the verse is best. And I don't believe it favours any sect.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Posted (edited)

Yes, as I said, you're right. Without any tafseer, I personally believe we can't specifically tell who the "truthfull" are.

The tafseer I quoted wasn't meant to disprove anything, it was simply meant to show that it can perfectly suit our 12er narrative. If it suits other narratives, like the Zaidi, then that's also fine. Although at the beginning I thought that you didn't consider Imams Sajjad and al-Baqir to be the next 2 imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), but later when you told me that they are Imams, then the tafseer/hadith can also work to your advantage.

So the verse in itself doesn't favour any sect, only the tafseer does (and within the tafseer, many sects are favoured, including them the ithna 'ashariyya). Therefore, I don't see why we need to argue here. 

I'm also not sure if there are more specific tafseer, maybe there are, but as of now I haven't found any. Maybe the brothers reading this know more and can surely find more apropiate tafseers of the verse.

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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On 8/4/2021 at 3:52 PM, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

"And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way." (Qur'an 5:12)

 

Ok so this verse is talking about Israelites. 

Nothing explicit about your 12 Imams.

Should we move to tafseer or is there anything you want to say about the verse itself ?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

"O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and be with the Truthful" (Qur'an 9:119)

So this verse is straight forward. But unspecific we all agree to be with the truthful. So would require tafseer.

For us the truthful one are clealry the progeny of the prophet as indicated and referred in the verse of Mubahila (3:61).

No one was more truthful than the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) otherwise the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) could have taken them in Mubahila against the christians of najran.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Ok so this verse is talking about Israelites. 

Nothing explicit about your 12 Imams.

Should we move to tafseer or is there anything you want to say about the verse itself ?

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَّأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ

And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My messengers and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way. (5:12)

The verse confrims the principle of 12 leaders chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the nation that were selected by the Allah and they were not selected by the people. It also proves the principle of selection of chosen representatives by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like the prophet, caliphs, imams, leaders etc that were chsoen by Allah for the guidance of the people.

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا

Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course. (48:23)

فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا سُنَّتَ الْأَوَّلِينَ ۚ فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

For you shall not find any alteration in the course of Allah; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah. (35:43)

In the ligth of above verses the presence of 12 leadser chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  in the nation of Muhammad is also confirmed. The same has also been described / mentioned in the prophet sayings and hadith.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

For us the truthful one are clealry the progeny of the prophet as indicated and referred in the verse of Mubahila (3:61).

No one was more truthful than the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) otherwise the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) could have taken them in Mubahila against the christians of najran.

wasalam

It would have been nice to debate with you in full brother. But you refused my request.  So please excuse me as I won't be replying to your posts as I will concentrate on my discussion with brother Abdul Hameed.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

It would have been nice to debate with you in full brother. But you refused my request.  So please excuse me as I won't be replying to your posts as I will concentrate on my discussion with brother Abdul Hameed.

We have carried out discussion already on many similar threads and we are aware of Zaydis view and their conclusions. You also know our stance very well.

You may be able or unable to reply our posts other than discussion with the brother quoted yourself. It is yours choice and i have nothing to do with it.

However when an ambiguous statement is made about the creed and basic principles of 12vers, any twelver brother or me can come and clarify our view as it is an open forum.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

(I just want to repeat this again, these are MY views, I don't know if there's any scholar that maybe agrees with the others readings, so if any of you twelver borthers are reading this and want to object, feel free to intervene. As I said in the beginning of this "discussion", I'm only a layman and not a hawza expert, so it's possible for me to make mistakes :D)

Brother, I have added few posts and i have tried to present clear views of 12vers. I am not a hawza man but i am experienced enough at SC to reply such points raised by some one in an ambiguous manner.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Regarding the verse of the 12 naqeebs, without any tafseer, it's about Bani Isra'eel, and not the Ummah of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). However, there are very important points that can be concluded from this verse:

1) These leaders are chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as it clearly says "We raised up among them twelve chieftains". This is one of the characteristics of twelver imamah.

2) Again, since they are chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and are divine leaders instead of just scholars, disagreeing and opposing them is prohibited and anyone who does so "shall lose the right way", meaning that they are astray from the path of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

3) The children of Israel had 12 appointed leaders. Jesus (عليه السلام) had 12 apostles. Don't you find it also logical for Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to have 12 successors ? You obviously may disagree immediatly with me, also you may say this is baseless deduction, and that nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that there will be 12 imams after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). We don't deny that, but the Qur'an also says:

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا

"Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course." (Qur'an 48:23)

For us 12ers, this is a very strong indication that the nation of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will, just as the nations of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them both), also have 12 leaders after him. For us, it's logical that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not to designate different numbers each nation, rather to be consistent, and always emphasized that he appointed Twelve Successors to each founding Prophet each nation.

But if still you don't accept this that's fine. I just find it hard to believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) appointed leaders for the children of Israel, yet for the nation of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), who is suposed to be far greater and the ultimate and best of all religions, he didn't appoint any...

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Ok so I'm not going to disagree about similarities. But when talking about that which are the fundamentals of your faith hard evidence is required. Not conjecture and making links here and there.

The part about succession has been answered in part as we agree upon the Zaidi & 12er fundamentals of the explicit appointment of Imam Ali and the vast amount of evidence supporting it.

Now when we look to your fundamental of 12 Imams. You posted some hadith to give Quranic tafseer to support your claim.

Now as we are both layman I want to ask a question. 

Imagine a person studying Islam maybe not settled on any group yet. Why should they accept the hadith from 12er sources you posted for those verses ? as apposed to Sunni or Zaidi etc.

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5 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

But when talking about that which are the fundamentals of your faith hard evidence is required.

This is a misconception and mistake people commit when debating. I already said at the beginning of the discussion that nowhere in the Qur'an does it explicitly say that "After the prophet, there will be 12 imams, and their names are so-and-so." I've said it many times, the example of imamah is like the example of prayer. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that we need to pray 2, 4, 4, 3 and 4, nor that we must make ruku then two sajdahs then stand up again, etc... The fundamentals of prayer are mentionned in the Qur'an, but the specifications are in hadith/tafseer. It's the exact same thing for imamah: the fundamentals of imamah are mentionned in the Qur'an, but the specifications (ie who are the imams) are in hadith/tafseer.

Some things are mentionned and explained very clearly in the Qur'an. Others not so much. And there are other things that are not even mentionned, yet believing in them is obligatory.

Take the example of Imam Mahdi (atf): he is not mentionned at all in the Qur'an, yet it's fundamental for every single Muslim to believe in him and his coming. Any Muslim who denies him (doesn't matter if he went into hiding or still hasn't been born) practically can't be considered a Muslim.

5 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Imagine a person studying Islam maybe not settled on any group yet. Why should they accept the hadith from 12er sources you posted for those verses ? as apposed to Sunni or Zaidi etc.

For Sunnism, you answered it yourself:

5 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The part about succession has been answered in part as we agree upon the Zaidi & 12er fundamentals of the explicit appointment of Imam Ali and the vast amount of evidence supporting it.

What's funny is that even in the most authentic Sunni sources it says that there will be twelve leaders/caliphs/princes/ruler/naqibs after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), yet none of their scholars can guess who they are. Instead they mention some caliphs who were mass-murderers, usurpers, sinful, liars and killers of Ahlulbayt. So much for them being "successors" of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

As for whether the person should decide between 12er or Zaidi, I have mentionned all the verses in the beginning of the discussion that talk about imamah, and if we analyze them, you'll realize that everything the Qur'an says about imamah is in accord with the 12er view of imamah, mainly that the imams are chosen and appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself to the people, and that they are purified and obeying them is the same as obeying the prophet, resulting in them being infallible, and that it's necessary for every nation to have a guide at all times. It is the sunnah of Allah, why would it change for our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ? Is this "hard evidence" not enough ?

So while the Qur'an never mentions directly the 12 imams (however there's the indirect allegory of the 12 naqibs and 12 months, again, according to our narrations), it does mention the characteristics of an imam, and only the imams of the 12er school of thought posess these characteristics. This is why I personnally believe that the person studying Islam should, as a conclusion, be more inclined to accept 12er sources.

The same argument can be used against you: where in the Qur'an does it mention your Zaidi imams ? If believing in those specific imams is so fundamental to you, why is there no "hard evidence" that they indeed were the true imams ?

That being said, regardless of whether you agree or disagree, do you want to continue with the next verse ?

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Quote

Shia Graph, Shia Answers, Shia Imams

 

Quote

We will briefly explain these three characteristics of the Imam.
One of the rational reasons that shows that the Imam is appointed by God is the Rule of Grace. The Rule of Grace means that the requirement of God’s special grace for the guidance of human beings is to provide His servants with everything they need for the guidance and salvation and to keep them away from what brings them closer to sins; And since the existence of the Imam, like the existence of the Prophet, is considered a grace for individuals,........

The second reason that Imamate is appointive is that ordinary people are not able to recognize the attribute of Ismah (infallibility). The Shia Muslims believe that the prominent position of the Imam in interpreting the truth of the religion and expressing the original tradition of Islam requires that he have the attribute of Ismah (infallibility); ........................................

The third rational reason for the necessity of appointing an Imam by God’s decree is the necessity of obedience to a perfect human being. A perfect man who has the manifestation of the prominent attributes of God and is the only one who is able to raise the level of human humanity and ultimately the salvation of all. This perfect man is the Prophet and the Imam, and obedience to them is obligatory on others, and since knowing such a degree of perfection is beyond the reach of human beings, then the Imam must be appointed by God.

https://en.shafaqna.com/224554/shia-answers-who-are-the-shia-imams-and-how-are-they-appointed/

Shia answers: Why should the Prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) appoint a successor?

Quote

Shia Answers, Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali

https://en.shafaqna.com/223464/shia-answers-why-should-the-prophet-of-islam-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-appoint-a-successor/

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

1) I've said it many times, the example of imamah is like the example of prayer. .

2) The same argument can be used against you: where in the Qur'an does it mention your Zaidi imams ? If believing in those specific imams is so fundamental to you, why is there no "hard evidence" that they indeed were the true imams ?

 

Ok so we have reached a very important topic.  Fundamentals and how we arrive to the conclusion.

1)Now let's take prayer. The details are a matter of fIqh. As layman we follow scholars on how to carry out all the details. Atm we haven't reached fiqh.

We are trying to establish which group of scholars to follow. By finding the correct sect by looking to the fundamentals of the sect.

Every Muslim must know there fundamentals without blind following.

2) As for Zaidi Imamat and following Zaid it's not a fundamental.Remember we quoted the fundamentals according to a classic scholar at the beginning. To makes sure we a have a standard to go back to when reffering to our fundamentals.

So atm we as layman are trying to establish the fundamentals. You are presenting the evidence. 

So as we have not established anything yet and are going through the evidence. Let's carry on.

Your fundamentals as stated by Sadooq are

12 specific Imams. As part of the evidence you quoted a hadith of tafseer of a verse.

1) So why should a layman who has not decided on a sect look to the tafseer you presented ?

2) Just for clarification and to establish your understanding how have we excluded sunni ?

I can answer both, including the question for the final fundamental quoted by Imam Hadi as per my opening definition if you like.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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12 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Imagine a person studying Islam maybe not settled on any group yet. Why should they accept the hadith from 12er sources you posted for those verses ? as apposed to Sunni or Zaidi etc.

:salam:
 

Quote

Why I Became a Shia’ by Latif Ali
Introduction
I was born in the year 1954 at Rose Hall Estate Range, Canje, Berbice in Guyana. I attended Cumberland Methodist School and qualified for free secondary education at Berbice High School.

In secondary school I studied religious knowledge (Christianity) among other subjects. My father went to the Masjid often but being only nine years of age when he died, I have not yet become sure as to his faith in Islam. My teachers were staunch Christians but my profound distaste for Christianity grew with their dogmatic attitude.

I never entertained any doubts about Islam. As a matter of fact, my faith was strengthened when I read John 16:12-15, where Jesus predicted the advent of Muhammad.

I examined other faiths but the retrogressive doctrine of reincarnation repelled me from many. Bahaism and Qadianism are such barefaced forgeries that even a youth like me shouldn't even consider them.

My biggest problem was, however, not the path but the method which I must employ to tread that path....................................https://www.al-islam.org/right-path/1-first-shia-guyana-latif-ali

https://www.al-islam.org/right-path/1-first-shia-guyana-latif-ali

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Your fundamentals as stated by Sadooq are

12 specific Imams. As part of the evidence you quoted a hadith of tafseer of a verse

Our fundementals  has been  stated  by infallible  Imam Sadiq (as) but you always dodge it to a fallible  shia scholar  in order to show 12er Shia Islam as product of fallible people  likewise Zaidi shia fundamentals has been created by fallible persons  likewise Hadi ila al- haqq according  to your definition  in https://zaidiportal.com/imam-hadi as your Imam which this is always comparing  apples  with oranges , so consequently  you have no valid logic for definition  of Imamate.

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) So why should a layman who has not decided on a sect look to the tafseer you presented ?

Non of us forced anyone  just look at any specific  Tafseer in contrast to your claim we allow everyone  to look at any Tafseer however we don't  neglect  mentorship  in finding best way.

1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Imam Hadi

http://shiastudies.com/en/10716/the-tenth-imam-ali-ibn-muhammad-al-naqi-al-hadi-as/

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/5890/Shi-ism-grew-stronger-during-the-time-of-Imam-Al-Hadi-a-s

https://www.pasokh.org/en/Article/View/2000661/Martyrdom-of-Imam-AliunNaqi-alHadi(عليه السلام)

Imam Hadi ('a) and the Ghullāt

Quote

Question: How did Imam Hadi ('a) combat the Ghullāt?
Concise answer:

The Ghulāt were one of the deviant and misguided groups, which were active during the Imamate of Imam Hadi (‘a). While the Ghullāt considered themselves as being Shia, their ideology and beliefs were utterly deviant and outside the fold of the Shia creed. They had certain exaggerated beliefs in regards to the Imam (‘a) and considered him as a divine being.

Detailed answer:
The Ghulāt were one of the deviant and misguided groups, which were active during the Imamate of Imam Hadi (‘a). While the Ghullāt considered themselves as being Shia, their ideology and beliefs were utterly deviant and outside the fold of the Shia creed. They had certain exaggerated beliefs in regards to the Imam (‘a) and considered him as a divine being. In addition, they would sometimes claim that they had been nominated by the Imam (‘a) and therefore, they would give a bad reputation to the Shia faith amongst the other sects. Imam Hadi (‘a) renounced this group and actively worked against them, so that through their rejection, they could not give a bad name to the general Shia body......

‘Ibn Ḥasakah’, may God’s curse be upon him, has lied. I do not consider him from amongst my friends and followers. What is wrong with him? May God remove his mercy from him! I swear by God… that Muhammad (ṣ) and the previous prophets (‘a) were sent only in the religion of worshipping one God, and commanding towards the prayer, the Zakāt, the Ḥajj, and the Wīlāyah (the guardianship of the Imams); and Muhammad (ṣ) has only invited towards the one matchless God. We, who are his successors, are the slaves of God and do not associate (others) with him.  If we obey him, we will be subject to his mercy, and if we disobey him, we will be subject to his punishment. We do not have any ḥujjah over God, but God has a ḥujjah over us and over all of his creation.

Ibn Bābāī thinks that I have nominated him to prophethood and he is my Bāb! May God curse him! Satan has gained mastery over him and has misguided him. If you can, break his head with a stone! He has tormented me; may God torment him in this world and the next.’[2]

Fāris ibn Hātam, who was one of the leaders of the Ghulāt, was cursed and refuted by the Imam (‘a). In addition, during a dispute that took place between him and ‘Alī ibn Ja’far[3], ‘Alī was supported by the Imam (‘a). The religious deviations and the deviating presence of Fāris were so great that the Imam (‘a) ordered his killing, and guaranteed paradise for the one who killed him. He wrote: ‘Fāris has committed certain actions in my name, and he is deceiving the people, and calling the people towards deviations in the religion. Shedding his blood is allowed. Who is it who will relieve us through his killing? In return, i will guarantee paradise for that individual.’

One of the companions of the Imam (‘a) by the name of Junayd complied with his order, and by killing him, rid the society of his evil.[4] [5]

https://www.makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=23&lid=1&catid=30152&mid=324257

only an infallible  Imam who has appointed  by divine command can order of killing of deviants  & Ghulats & grants paradise  for killer no there is question which obne of Zaidi Imams  after Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) has done same thing  likewise Imam Hadi (عليه السلام) & he was certain  about his ruling  & his promise?

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

by Imam Hadi

Hadi ila al-haqq has born in time of Imam Hadi (عليه السلام) & according  to your site he became  Imam during time of 11th , Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام) so which made him superior him to two infallible  Imams because in anything  that you mentioned in zaidiportal the two infallible  Imams were superior to him in anything  except they were under house arresst  so they couldn't  do Jihad by sword?

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Ali_b._Muhammad_al-Hadi_(a)

https://zaidiportal.com/imam-hadi

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_al-Hasan_b._Ali_al-Askari_(a)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

1)Our fundementals  has been  stated  by infallible  Imam Sadiq (as

2)Non of us forced anyone  just look at any specific  Tafseer in contrast to your claim we allow everyone  to look at any Tafseer however we don't  neglect  mentorship  in finding best 

1) Ofcourse this is part of the discussion. The brother has posted hadith from Imam Jaffer Sadiq and Imam Baqir. We are discussing it and going through the evidence. We are only using sheikh Sadooq and Imam Hadi (Zaidi Imam). As unfortunately books on aqeeda were codified and written later. So we need a standard to judge each sect otherwise every layman can pick random hadith and make up an aqeeda.

2) It's not about force. We are using Qur'an and tafseer as evidence so we need to discuss how and why certain tafseer are used to find the truth .

There is no trickery or deception here just a very nice discussion between me and brother @Mohamad Abdel-Hamid

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6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1)Now let's take prayer. The details are a matter of fIqh. As layman we follow scholars on how to carry out all the details. Atm we haven't reached fiqh.

For the example of prayer I was referring to the parts which every scholar agrees upon (number of rak'ats and sequence of the prayer). They all agree on these parts despite not being mentionned in the Qur'an. As for the parts that differ, they are very minor, I would say more than 95% of prayer is the same according to the different maraji'.

6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

2) As for Zaidi Imamat and following Zaid it's not a fundamental.Remember we quoted the fundamentals according to a classic scholar at the beginning. To makes sure we a have a standard to go back to when reffering to our fundamentals.

According to the fundamentals you quoted, only following Imam Ali is fundamental ? When you say that following the other imams after him is not fundamental, what do you mean ? Isn't following Zaid what makes you a "Zaidi" ?

6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

1) So why should a layman who has not decided on a sect look to the tafseer you presented ?

2) Just for clarification and to establish your understanding how have we excluded sunni ?

I already answered these questions, but I'll repeat them again:

1) All the characteristics of imamah narrated by Sheikh Saduq are in the Qur'an. Since only the imams of the 12er school of thought posess these characteristics, then it's logical for the layman to look at the tafseer I presented.

2) The Qur'an makes it clear that imamah exists, as well as pointing out many times that someone (Imam Ali (as)) is the successor and authority after the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It's even mentionned in their ahadeeth. But since Sunnis don't believe in any of this, they are excluded.

6 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I can answer both, including the question for the final fundamental quoted by Imam Hadi as per my opening definition if you like.

Sure, go ahead.

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On 8/5/2021 at 2:07 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

So the verse and tafsir you presented.

I want to first discuss the verse without your tafseer.

I believe the verse itself can apply to Sunni and Zaidi but can not apply to 12er.

The verse gives a general description of those in authority and puts a clause of disagreement. And returning to Allah and the messenger.

In Sunni and Zaidi any one in charge must hold to Qur'an and sunnah. Its why if there is a dispute you return to Allah and the messenger.

On the other hand your Imams are infallible chosen by Allah and free from error. There is no dispute and it's a given they hold to the Qur'an and sunnah.

The leaders mentioned here clearly have a clause to obeying them.

So without your specific Tasfseer I believe it excludes your beleif. 

Your tafseer is definitely required to apply this to your creed as a general reading is not sufficient.

Your thoughts brother ?

 

 

First ‘Fa’ used in the verse 4:59 is a resumption particle (الفاء استئنافية). In that case second sentence has no grammatical link with the first even if there is a close in the topic

Like : They slept, and (fa) they don’t wake up

‘O you who believe obey Allah and obey messenger and those having amr’ is an independent clause and then resumption particle fa starts another clause. It does not put any condition on the previous statement.

Then another statement ‘if you differ in anything then(fa) refer it to Allah and his messenger.

Here ‘Fa’ in the second clause is  a result particle (الفاء واقعة في جواب الشرط): this one links to a condition
Like : If you are so sick then (fa) go to the doctor

 In the verse 4:59 first ‘ fa’ is not a result particle but a resumption particle.

fi in 4-59.png

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