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In the Name of God بسم الله

The sons of the Imams were Zaydis

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7 hours ago, Cool said:

infallibility

There is no infallibility in the twelver school, this is just something you deceive yourselves with. Can you demonstrate this infallibility? No you cannot. 

The ark of Noah for you has halted 1182+ years ago, you receive no guidance from the 12th Imam. 

You cannot possibly deny the fact that your entire creed is in the hands of Mujtahids who are not infallible, and those who set the foundation for your sect aren’t even from the Ahlulbayt. 

You follow scholars who can’t reach a consensus regarding Adhan, Tatbir, Salat, and even Islam. The shirazis on one end, and the khameneis on another. 

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49 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

There is no infallibility in the twelver school

I am talking about infallibility of Imams :hahaha: and demonstrating you the same by means of the verses of Quran and the ahadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which you accept (i.e., hadith e safinah, hadith e hablillah etc)

49 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The ark of Noah for you has halted 1182+ years ago

It is still intact Alhamdulillah. 

49 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

You cannot possibly deny the fact that your entire creed is in the hands of Mujtahids who are not infallible,

That is what I was trying to tell you. That your Imams are mujtahids which are fallible but not those who are the مثل of Ark of Noah, the Imams of guidance, the guided ones, the 12 Imams. 

49 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

You follow scholars who can’t reach a consensus regarding Adhan, Tatbir, Salat, and even Islam

We only follow Quran & Sunnah. Who told you that we "follow" someone else? 

Don't complaint about differences while you believe that اختلاف امتي رحمة 

I don't want to ignite you again so just avoiding to quote more from your books. In other words, I am avoiding to show you the mirror. My sole objective at the moment is to discuss the hadith of safinah & hadith of habilillah which your fallible Imams quote in almost every khutbah. And these two ahadith specifically pointing towards infallible Imams. 

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49 minutes ago, Cool said:

I don't want to ignite you again so just avoiding to quote more from your books. In other words, I am avoiding to show you the mirror. My sole objective at the moment is to discuss the hadith of safinah & hadith of habilillah which your fallible Imams quote in almost every khutbah. And these two ahadith specifically pointing towards infallible Imams. 

Do share with us brother. 

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3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

in its verses the word Imam

وَجَعَلْنَٰهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَدْعُونَ إِلَى ٱلنَّارِ ۖ وَيَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَٰمَةِ لَا يُنصَرُونَ
 

And We made them Imams calling to the Fire; and on the Day of the Resurrection they will not be vindicated. {28:41}

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

I am talking about infallibility of Imams :hahaha: and demonstrating you the same by means of the verses of Quran and the ahadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which you accept (i.e., hadith e safinah, hadith e hablillah etc)

Again, I will grant you that narrative.

Can you show me where this infallibility is?

2 hours ago, Cool said:

the Imams of guidance, the guided ones, the 12 Imams.

There is no guidance from the 12th Imam, therefore, your guidance is now in the hands of fallible Mujtahids.

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Don't complaint about differences while you believe that اختلاف امتي رحمة 

Not in matters of Usool, you have ikhtilaf in Imamate.

Ibn Al-Junayd, a Sheikh of the Ta'ifah, someone who is unanimously considered to be reliable; living at the time of Al-Kulayni did not believe the 12 Imams were Infallible. 

Why are you imposing this on us?

 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

I don't want to ignite you again so just avoiding to quote more from your books. In other words, I am avoiding to show you the mirror. My sole objective at the moment is to discuss the hadith of safinah & hadith of habilillah which your fallible Imams quote in almost every khutbah. And these two ahadith specifically pointing towards infallible Imams. 


‎قال الشّيخ آصف محسنيّ يتكلّم عن خبر أنّ الأرض لا تبقَى بدون إمَامٍ أو لساخَت، فتكلّم عن دور الفيض أو التّكوين وأنّه ممكنٌ من دور المهدي ، ثمّ قال : ((وإن أُريدَ جهة تشريع و تَبيين المَعارف و الأحكام، فَلا بدّ مِن‌ التَعدِّي إلى العُلماء المجهتدين القادِرين على استنباط الأحكَام الظّاهرية مِن أدلتها حتى لا تُنقض الرّوايات بعصر الغيبة التي امتدّت أكثر ألف سَنة، وربّما تمتد الى آلاف أو مَلايين السّنين. فَإن المُؤمنين لَم تنفعُوا و لا يَنتفعون من إمَامِهم الغائب- عجل الله تعالى فرجه- في الأصُول و الفروع، ومَا يُقَال بخِلاف ذَلك فَهُو تَخيّلٌ وَ توهُّمٌ وَ لَعبٌ بالعُقُول)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:1/407-408] .

‘Asif Muhsini states: 

The Ummah does not benefit from the twelfth Imam, neither in matters of Usool al-deen, nor Furu’ al-deen. He mentions that anyone who holds an opposing opinion is conflicted in understanding and is toying with their minds. 

‎- وقال آصف محسنيّ في موضعٍ آخر : ((ولا يُمكن القَول بانتفاعنا منهُ (ع) في زمَن الغيبة في الأمُور الدينيّة إلّا ممَّن سَلب الله عَقله)) [مشرعة بحار الأنوار:2/223] .

He further states: We cannot say that we benefit from the twelfth Imam in matters of religion (during his occultation) and whoever states such Allah has taken his mind! i.e they’re delusional.

Therefore, the twelver exegesis of 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

We sent before you none (as apostles) but men, to whom We sent revelations. In case you are unaware, enquire of those who are keepers of the Oracles of God. {16:43} 

has been disproven and has no basis, for this cannot be implemented in regards to the twelfth Imam. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

your fallible Imams

Unlike your non-existent infallibility, we have a clear and practical model of infallibility it is the consensus of the Ahlulbayt, and it can be put to the test. You are free to test it by bringing any such consensus and addressing it through the intellect, the Quran, and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (S). 

The infallibility which you claim is non-existent, you have Saheeh Hadiths contradicting Saheeh Hadiths, it cannot be tested, and it's theoretical to the point of it being a mere fantasy.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

just avoiding to quote more from your books.

Our books stand as evidences against your creed, they are clear, coherent, and written by the Ahlulbayt.

https://alkazemalzaidy2013.wordpress.com/دليل-الباحث-إلى-علوم-أهل-البيت-ومذهبهم/

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8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Can you show me where this infallibility is?

إن تَمَسَّكتم بهما لن تضلّوا بعدي: كتابَ اللَّه وعترتي أهلَ بيتي،

These are the specific words of hadith al-thaqalayn which points towards infallibility. 

As Sheikh Asif Mohseni has pointed in his book:

ظاهر قوله صل الله عليه و آله و سلّم:

«لن تظلوا بعدى»

عدم الضلالة عن الواقع، فيدل على عصمة اهل بيت، فيكون اجماعهم حجة بطريق أولى، فأنّ مدلول الحديث حجة قول كل واحد منهم. و يحتمل ارادة الاهتداء الى مطلق الحكم‌

So for us, neither the Quran is fallible nor the 12 Imams from Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There is no guidance from the 12th Imam, therefore, your guidance is now in the hands of fallible Mujtahids.

Do you accept the chain of guidance till 11th Imam? :hahaha:

We will discuss the case of 12th later. 

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

قال الشّيخ آصف محسنيّ

You know quoting the Sheikh will backfire on you. Here is what he said about Zaidiyyah in the same book:

و موضع الزيدية لم يكن باخف من موضع بني عباس أو بني امية من الائمة الاثنى عشر و لو استولوا على السلطة و الحكومة لقتلوا الامام الصادق عليه السلاماذا اقتضاء الحال، و من قرأ مقاتل الطابيين و بعض روايات الكافي، هان عليه تصديق ما قلنا

http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/11772/1/412

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Not in matters of Usool, you have ikhtilaf in Imamate.

Believing in infallibility is not obligatory in our religion. Believing in Imamate of 12 Imams is obligatory in our religion and again I quote from the book of Sheikh Asif Mohseni:

في معتبرة غياث بن ابراهين عن الصادق عليه السلام عن آياته عن مخلف فيكم الثقلين كتاب الله و عترتى» من العترة؟ فقال: أنا و الحسن و الحسين و الائمة التسعة من ولد الحسين، تاسعم مهديهم و قائمهم، لا يفارقون كتاب الله و لا يفارقهم حتى يردوا على رسول الله صل الله عليه و آله و سلّم حوضه‌

(23: 147) نقل عن اكمال الدين و العيون و معاني الاخبار للصدوق عليه السلام‌

http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/11772/1/422

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Therefore, the twelver exegesis of 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُّوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۚ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

We sent before you none (as apostles) but men, to whom We sent revelations. In case you are unaware, enquire of those who are keepers of the Oracles of God. {16:43} 

has been disproven and has no basis, for this cannot be implemented in regards to the twelfth Imam. 

It is as bright as daylight for us. What I am doing at this very moment is taking help from اهل الذكر and quoting you their words. 

The problem exist at your end, you cannot even explain the phrase لن تضلوا بعدي 

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Unlike your non-existent infallibility, we have a clear and practical model of infallibility it is the consensus of the Ahlulbayt

:hahaha: and what is that? Whatever that would be, it is not inline with the hadith al-thaqalayn and hadith e safinah. 

  أَلاَ إِنَّ مَثَلُ أَهلُ بَيتِي فِيكُمْ مَثَلُ سَفِينَةِ نُوح مَنْ رَكِبَهَا نَجَا ومَنْ تَخَلَّفَ عَنْهَا غَرِقَ

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Our books stand as evidences against your creed

Rather they are evidence against themselves :hahaha: as I have pointed out above. 

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

و موضع الزيدية لم يكن باخف من موضع بني عباس أو بني امية من الائمة الاثنى عشر و لو استولوا على السلطة و الحكومة لقتلوا الامام الصادق عليه السلاماذا اقتضاء الحال، و من قرأ مقاتل الطابيين و بعض روايات الكافي، هان عليه تصديق ما قلنا

 

Wow, I can't believe he said that. Imam Al-Sadiq is our honor, and one of our great Imams of 'ilm. 

6 minutes ago, Cool said:

عدم الضلالة عن الواقع، فيدل على عصمة اهل بيت، فيكون اجماعهم حجة بطريق أولى، فأنّ مدلول الحديث حجة قول كل واحد منهم. و يحتمل ارادة الاهتداء الى مطلق الحكم‌

My point is you only boast about something which is non-existent, for example in theory it sounds perfectly fine. However, history and our modern times denote a different narrative. The split between the Usoolis and the Akhbaris is a major indication of deviation, for one called the other as misguided and each claimed to follow the infallible Hadith of the Imams. Was this not clear ضلال?

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11 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

for example in theory it sounds perfectly fine.

Theoretical correctness & soundness will lead to practical correctness. It is considered as first step. Scientifically, no one going to demonstrate practically, a thing which is theoretically incorrect. 

Neither Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) nor His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would utter such words which are lacking the practicality. 

So whe he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) commanded you to cling to "Quran" and "Itrati Ahli Bayti" and said the if you did so you will never misguide, was this a lie (na'uzobillah)? So you need to come to those who are protected ones themselves for your own safety. 

18 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

history and our modern times denote a different narrative. The split between the Usoolis and the Akhbaris is a major indication of deviation,

In the absence of Imam of time (may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hastens his appearance), everything will look deviation to you except the rope (hablillah) itself. 

20 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

for one called the other as misguided and each claimed to follow the infallible Hadith of the Imams.

The above highlighted words are evidence for what I said above. 

So there can arise difference of opinions in understanding any hadith. That is not deviation at least as long as both groups are clinging with the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Cool said:

 

We only follow Quran & Sunnah. Who told you that we "follow" someone else? 

 

No you don't your very foundation of 12 infallible Imams is based on the opinion of post occultation scholars and there post occultation 12rr hadith sources.

It's completely cyclic. You can bring no clear proof that would bring a layman to your aqeeda.

Sunni might not have a complete aqeeda but they can proove it all from Qur'an 

We can prove our aqeeda from Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith.

Any lay person can easily understand and accept Islam from our perspective without blindly following scholars.

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17 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

You can bring no clear proof that would bring a layman to your aqeeda.

These sort of comments are representing your utter desperation. 

17 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

We can prove our aqeeda from Qur'an and Mutawatir hadith.

And we are discussing the same mutawatir ahadith as well as Quran.

I think its time for you to revert back to 12ers :hahaha:

17 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Any lay person can easily understand and accept Islam from our perspective without blindly following scholars.

Great!! Keep dreaming. 

20 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

You can bring no clear proof that would bring a layman to your aqeeda.

We are not the guide, we are not the One who expends someone breast for accepting the truth. 

يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَن يَشَاء

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

So whe he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) commanded you to cling to "Quran" and "Itrati Ahli Bayti" and said the if you did so you will never misguide, was this a lie (na'uzobillah)? So you need to come to those who are protected ones themselves for your own safety. 

 

Your scholars band hadith sources are not protected.

And you have no infallible present to correct anyone.

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

These sort of comments are representing your utter desperation. 

 

 I'm admit I am desperate to discuss this issue as it's very important. But nobody seems want to discuss the elephant in the room.

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13 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

And we are discussing the same mutawatir ahadith as well as Quran.

I think its time for you to revert back to 12ers :hahaha:

 

Maybe you are right. Let's have the discussion. From the beginning ? Specifically on fundamentals ?

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2 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Maybe you are right. Let's have the discussion. From the beginning ? Specifically on fundamentals ?

Will you excuse me please? 

I have done my job. Ask God's help to expend your breast so that you can come back to truth. Once you reach to the truth, do say that:

الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ الَّذِي هَدَانَا لِهَـذَا وَمَا كُنَّا لِنَهْتَدِيَ لَوْلا أَنْ هَدَانَا اللّهُ 

 

 

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