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In the Name of God بسم الله

The sons of the Imams were Zaydis

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10 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I did so thinking that will not be able to set  myself free form him. I continued following him. I had become certain of dying until we reached the door of abu al-Hassan ((عليه السلام)

Please forgive my ignorance but who is Abu al-Hassan in this narration?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I had in mind there would be some desperate attempts, but this level of desperation I did not expect. 

Do you reject the fact that the verses of Quran in its format of Arabic text  mention the word Imam as exactly 12 times?

This is confirmation in light of the verses of quran,  hadith of the prophet for 12 Imams and  other research carried out about their verification about 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (عليه السلام). They are light of the truth and guidance true believers

The research can be seen as given below:

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts? (47:24)

ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ نَزَّلَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ ۗ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِي الْكِتَابِ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ

That is [deserved by them] because Allah has sent down the Book in truth. And indeed, those who differ over the Book are in extreme dissension. (2:176)

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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28 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

"May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, has your father left this world?" He said, "Yes, he has passed away. I then asked, " Did he die a natural death?" He said, "Yes, he did so."

Natural death? Wasn’t Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) poisoned?

30 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

He said, "If you will find intelligent people inform them but make him to promise secrecy. If they would make it public it will be slaughter, he pointed with his hand to his throat.”

So the Imam (عليه السلام) didn’t call to himself out of fear of mass repression? And only a select few were cognisant of his Imamate at the time?

32 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

He said, "If Allah would will to guide you he will do so." I then said, "May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, is that you?" He said, "No, I do not say that to you."

 What does one make of this? Did the Imam (عليه السلام) hesitate to make known his Imamate to them out of this fear of repression?

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Also please do not view this as me heckling anyone on this thread. I genuinely want to learn and apologise if my tone is abrupt. 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, User 313 said:

Natural death? Wasn’t Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) poisoned?

So the Imam (عليه السلام) didn’t call to himself out of fear of mass repression? And only a select few were cognisant of his Imamate at the time?

 What does one make of this? Did the Imam (عليه السلام) hesitate to make known his Imamate to them out of this fear of repression?

I know there are fewpoints in this hadith that can be diferent for us,  when we look at  the grading of hadith that's why it is Daef / weak.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

"Who will be for us after him?"

 

6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

who will be for us after him?"

 

6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

is that you?"

 

6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

your Shi‘a, followers and the followers of your father are in loss and false guidance.

Do you not see the point that is being made? This Hadith clearly highlights that there is no 12 Imams designated by name, otherwise what is the issue that everyone is having here. This shouldn't even be debatable, for someone to come and say the Prophet said, or even an Imam at that. Stating there will be these 12 particular Imams by name one would be making a statement of ignorance which is unacceptable in their own sphere. Therefore, those Hadiths you and @Fuming are sharing succumb to this reality, which if one does not maintain that the 12 weren't mentioned by name has the burden of squaring another circle. I don't know how clearer I can make it. 

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This "basharat" for 12 leaders/rulers/imams/caliphs is not limited to ahadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

The book of genesis chapter 17 says this:

في التوراة الفعلية ـ العهد القديم والجديد : 1 / 25 ـ طبعة مجمع الكنائس الشرقية ، في سفر التكوين ، الإصحاح السابع عشر ، قال :
( 18 ـ وقال إبراهيم لله ليت إسماعيل يعيش أمامك . 19 ـ فقال الله : بل سارة امرأتك تلد لك ابناً وتدعو اسمه إسحق ، وأقيم عهدي معه عهداً أبدياً لنسله من بعده .20 ـ وأما إسماعيل فقد سمعت لك فيه ، ها أنا أباركه وأثمره ، وأكثره كثيراً جداً . اثني عشر رئيساً يلد ، وأجعله أمة كبيرة . 21 ـ ولكن عهدي أقيمه مع إسحق ، الذي تلده لك سارة في هذا الوقت ، في السنة الآتية )

19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son,(AR) and you will call him Isaac.[d](AS) I will establish my covenant with him(AT) as an everlasting covenant(AU) for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.(AV) He will be the father of twelve rulers,(AW) and I will make him into a great nation.(AX) 21 But my covenant(AY) I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you(AZ) by this time next year.”

Twelve rulers in the progeny of Isma'il (عليه السلام)!!! 

Time to see verse 78 of chapter 22:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ {78}

[Shakir 22:78] And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

This "basharat" for 12 leaders

Already answered by our Imam Al-Ridha عليه السلام 

They are, as the Zaydis affirm 6 from the sons of Imam Hassan, 6 from the sons of Imam Hussein - and from there the progeny disperses.

روي الشّيخ الصّدوق بإسنادِه ، حَدّثنا عُبيدالله بن عَبد الله بن الحسَن بن جَعفر بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي قال : سَألت عَلي بن مُوسى بن جَعفر عليهم السلام عمّا يُقَال في بني الأفطَس؟!. فَقال : ((إنّ الله عَزّ وَجلّ أخرَج مِن بَني إسرَائيل وَهُو يَعقُوب بن إسحَاق بن إبراهيم عليه السلام اثني عشَر سِبطاً وَجعلَ فِيهِم النبوّة والكِتاب [أي قبيلَةً يَنتسبون إلى اثنَي عَشر رجلاً من أبناء يعقوب] ، وَنشرَ مِنَ الحسَن والحسين ابنَي أمير المُؤمنين عليهم السلام مِن فاطمة بِنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله اثني عشَر سِبطاً ، ثمّ عَد الاثني عشَر مِن وَلد إسرائيل فقال : رُوبيل بن يعقوب ، وشَمعون بن يعقوب ، ويهودا ابن يعقوب ، ويَشاجر بن يعقوب ، وزيلون بن يعقوب ، ويُوسف بن يعقوب ، وبنيامين بن يعقوب ، ونفتالى بن يَعقوب ، ودَان بن يعقوب ، وسقط عن أبي الحسن النّسابة ثلاثة مِنهم ، ثمّ عَدّ الاثني عَشر مِن ولد الحسن والحسين عليهما السلام فقال : أما الحسَن فَانتشر مِن ستّة أبطُن وَهُم بَنو الحسن بن زَيد بن الحسَن بن عَلي ، وبَنو عبد الله بن الحسن بن الحسن بن عَلي ، وبَنو إبراهيم بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي ، وبنو الحسن بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي ، وبَنو داود بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي ، وبنو جعفر بن الحسن بن الحسن علي ، فَعقب الحسن بن علي مِن هَذه السّتة الأبطُن ، ثمّ عَد بَني الحسين عليه السلام فقال : بَنو محمّد بن عَلي الباقر بن علي بن الحسين عليهم السلام بَطن ، وبَنو عبد الله ابن الباهر بن علي ، وبَنو زيد بن علي بن الحسين ، وبَنو الحسين بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، وبَنو عمر بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، وبنو علي بن علي بن الحسين بن علي ، فهؤلاء الستّة الأبطن نَشر الله عَزّ وجلّ مِن الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام)) [الخصال:466] ، وهُنا تأمّل قولَ الإمَام علي بن موسَى الرّضا (ع) : ((إنّ الله عَزّ وَجلّ أخرَج مِن بَني إسرَائيل وَهُو يَعقُوب بن إسحَاق بن إبراهيم عليه السلام اثني عشَر سِبطاً وَجعلَ فِيهِم النبوّة والكِتاب))

Sheikh Al-Saduq narrated with his chain of narrators, that Obaidullah bin Abdullah bin Al-Hassan bin Jafar bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Hassan bin Ali said: I asked Ali bin Musa bin Jafar, peace be upon them, about what is said about Banu Al-Aftas?

He said: “God, the Mighty and the Majestic, brought out from the Children of Israel, which is Ya`qub bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim, peace be upon him, twelve tribes, and made in them the prophethood and the book [i.e. a tribe that belong to the two men], and he spread the two men of the sons of Ya`qub among them from among the ten believers. Fatimah, the daughter of the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, and the family of twelve tribes. 

Then he counted the twelve sons of Israel and said: Rubel ibn Ya’qub, Simeon ibn Ya’qub, Yehuda ibn Ya’qub, Shajar ibn Ya’qub, Zilun ibn Yaqoub, Yusuf ibn Ya‘qub, Benjamin ibn Ya‘qub, and Naftali. Ibn Yaqub, Dan Ibn Yaqub, and three of them fell from the lineage of Abu al-Hasan. 

Then he counted the twelve sons of al-Hasan and al-Husayn, peace be upon them, and said: As for al-Hasan, it spread from six descendants, and they are the sons of al-Hasan ibn Zaid ibn al-Hasan ibn Ali, and the sons of al-Hasan ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan. The sons of Ali, the sons of Ibrahim Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Dawood Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Jaafar Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali.

Al-Hussein, peace be upon him He said: The children of Muhammad bin Ali Al-Baqir bin Ali bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, peace be upon them, are a line, the children of Abdullah bin Al-Bahir bin Ali, the children of Zaid bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, the children of Al-Hussain bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, the children of Omar bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, and the children of Ali. Bin Ali Bin Al-Hussein Bin Ali,

so these are the six innermost ones that God, the Mighty and Sublime, has spread from Al-Hussain Bin Ali, peace be upon them.” [Al-Khisal: 466]

You will find that leadership and guidance is in the (collective) offspring of the group, as displayed by the Quran with the 12 Naqibs mentioned, and as explained by our dear Imam Al-Ridha. 

And We verily sent Noah and Abraham and placed the prophethood and the scripture among their seed, and among them there is he who goeth right, but many of them are evil-livers. {Al-Hadeed: 26}

And so, We have bestowed this divine writ as a heritage unto such of Our servants as We chose: and among them are some who sin against themselves; and some who keep half-way [between right and wrong]; and some who, by God’s leave, are foremost in deeds of goodness: [and] this, indeed, is a merit most high {Faatir: 32}

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23 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I think you have no idea about the grading of hadith so it will be better if you learn about these aspects before hand. brother. wasalam

I am very happy you brought this point up, because I did not get a chance to address it directly and it probably would have gone over some heads.

Let us be consistent in our reasoning here:

I am seeking to make very critical and adequate responses to each point, I am not simply flipping through your works and pulling out any Hadith that fits my narrative.

If you were to go through the thread and pick out each Hadith I choose, you'd notice when I point out the ignorance of Imam Zayd towards Imamate with a Hadith that has a Saheeh Isnad, and is strengthened by Al-Khoei, you'd go on to make the assertion that it was done in taqiyyah or what not.

The issue with the Imammi creed is that it is very slippery, and the taqiyyah cop-out is one which is a useful tactic, but also carries heavy implications. Any point that I may bring to you with a Saheeh Hadith, could easily be countered with another 'Saheeh' Hadith and you'd juxtapose that with the response that the other 'Saheeh Hadith' was said through taqiyyah. Therefore, I am using narrations that you already concede to in terms of them being (a) authentic, and (b) consistent with the narrative you hold.

Furthermore, if you notice @Cool brought a tradition from the Bible; I mean if we're going to talk about a questionable source there isn't much that ought to be said about that. What I did in response was share a tradition from Al-Khisal which explains that Bible verse, now if you want to deny the tradition on shaky grounds maintaining that it has a narrator which doesn't score well on the category of rijaal (and there is a lot to say about twelver rijaal) you could at least bring a tradition that is more authentic and addresses the Bible verse in question. In short, you won't bring such a tradition, because it will affirm my rebuttal to that Bible verse. 

Therefore, your strawman argument holds no grounds. The most you can do is take back your Bible quote, because it fundamentally serves the Zaydi position in lieu of the traditions you have in interpreting the verse.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Do you not see the point that is being made? This Hadith clearly highlights that there is no 12 Imams designated by name, otherwise what is the issue that everyone is having here.

The verses of quran are clear evidences of 12 leaders in bani Israel and similarly verses of quran and hadith provide the evidences for their presence in our nation. 

Many evidences has been shown to yourself from the verses of quran by research but someone keep his eyes closed.

Are you trying to deny the hadith thaqlyn and the verses of quran about the presence of 12 imams from Ahl albayt ?

Why does the quran mention in exactly 12 times the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

 ۗ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

And Allah presents examples for the people that perhaps they will be reminded. (14:25)

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

The research in detail can be seen at the given link based on the verses of quran for the presence of 12 imams / leaders in our nation:

Why did the nation became wondering and took the Abu bakr as first caliph even there were hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and clear instructions to follow Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after the prophet s..w as Maula and caliph of believers ? Do you not accept the Ghadeer declaration for Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? 

Thus your false assumptions have no weight even to the weight of an atom.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The verses of quran are clear evidences of 12 leaders in bani Israel

I shared a tradition from Imam Ridha from your sources that explains what the 12 leaders of Banu Israil means, you ignored it and went on to argue against the explanation of Imam Ridha. You dismiss it on the basis of you not liking it, and go on to quote the same Quranic verses that I can equally quote to you!

5 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Many evidences has been shown to yourself from the verses of quran by research but someone keep his eyes closed.

What you consider to be 'evidence' has been refuted, and the refutations are yet to be addressed critically.

7 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Are you trying to deny the hadith thaqlyn and the verses of quran about the presence of 12 imams from Ahl albayt ?

If anyone has denied Hadith Thaqalayn it is you, you believe in an Imam that has gone in occultation like 20+ other sects before you believed as well. You maintain that this Imam serves no role of guidance whatsoever, so what really is the point of Hadith Thaqalayn if it halts after the major occultation i.e is practically immobile for 1150+ years. If you maintain the traditions of the preceding Imams what is the point of having an occult Imam, other than filling your gap in Imamate, as well as serving the narrative of the Abbasids which is not rising before the coming of the 'Mahdi'. Of course, the Abbasids know there isn't a Mahdi that will come from the twelver schools conception, and if the actual one is born from the Zaydiyyah they can easily fight him on the grounds of him being a false messiah! 

11 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Why does the quran mention in exactly 12 times the word Imam

Do you genuinely believe that? Because I, and a billion+ Muslims can't seem to infer that the Quran mentioning Imam in singular form 5 times, and in plural form 7 times refers to 12 infallible Imams designated by Allah. Just know this reasoning opens the door to allowing astronomical superstitions to enter the creed - as was the case with the extreme exaggerators who argued the Imams control the universe, and the atoms.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Of course, the Abbasids know there isn't a Mahdi that will come from the twelver schools conception, and if the actual one is born from the Zaydiyyah they can easily fight him on the grounds of him being a false messiah! 

The common view among all Muslims is that Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) will accompany the Mahdi (عليه السلام). According to the Zaidi POV, how is it possible that Twelvers will reject their advent? Will Twelvers (according to Zaidis) dismiss Isa (عليه السلام) as a charlatan also? I am just trying to understand the Zaidi take on all this. 

Edited by User 313
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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

What I did in response was share a tradition from Al-Khisal which explains that Bible verse, now if you want to deny the tradition on shaky grounds maintaining that it has a narrator which doesn't score well on the category of rijaal (and there is a lot to say about twelver rijaal) you could at least bring a tradition that is more authentic and addresses the Bible verse in question. In short, you won't bring such a tradition, because it will affirm my rebuttal to that Bible verse. 

Read that hadith 1000 times and bring out from it the 12 rulers, as you are portraying that the hadith you quoted is proving 12 Imams/rulers or explaining the verse of bible. 

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Then he counted the twelve sons of al-Hasan and al-Husayn, peace be upon them, and said: As for al-Hasan, it spread from six descendants, and they are the sons of al-Hasan ibn Zaid ibn al-Hasan ibn Ali, and the sons of al-Hasan ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan. The sons of Ali, the sons of Ibrahim Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Dawood Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Jaafar Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali.

Al-Hussein, peace be upon him He said: The children of Muhammad bin Ali Al-Baqir bin Ali bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, peace be upon them, are a line, the children of Abdullah bin Al-Bahir bin Ali, the children of Zaid bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, the children of Al-Hussain bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, the children of Omar bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, and the children of Ali. Bin Ali Bin Al-Hussein Bin Ali,

so these are the six innermost ones that God, the Mighty and Sublime, has spread from Al-Hussain Bin Ali, peace be upon them.” [Al-Khisal: 466]

فهؤلاء الستّة الأبطن نَشر الله عَزّ وجلّ مِن الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام))

lol, now should I quote from the book you have referred the ahadith as proof for the Imamate of Imam Zain ul Abideen (عليه السلام), Al-Baqir (عليه السلام) , Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) to the 12th Imam? And from different books, the fact that Imamate will continue in the progeny of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)? 

وفي آخر عن ابن مسعود قال : سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله يقول : الأئمة بعدي اثنا عشر ، تسعة من صلب الحسين والتاسع مهديهم )

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

Time to see verse 78 of chapter 22:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ {78}

[Shakir 22:78] And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people;

So according to Zaidiyyah, who is the witness over people now? 

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

So according to Zaidiyyah, who is the witness over people now? 

Verse seeems clear

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslim before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people;

The "you" are the Muslims as explained in the verse.

What's your explanation ?

 

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49 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

The "you" are the Muslims as explained in the verse.

All Muslims? Or the descendents of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)? 

3 hours ago, Cool said:

مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ

So All Muslims are witness upon people? And upon all Muslims, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is witness? 

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ:عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ،عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ،عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ الْوَشَّاءِ،عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ عَائِذٍ،عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ،عَنْ بُرَيْدٍ الْعِجْلِيِّ،عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ(عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ)،قَالَ: قُلْتُ:قَوْلُ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرٰاهِيمَ .

قَالَ:«إِيَّانَا عَنَى خَاصَّةً: هُوَ سَمّٰاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ فِي الْكُتُبِ الَّتِي مَضَتْ وَ فِي هٰذٰا الْقُرْآنِ لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيداً عَلَيْكُمْ وَ تَكُونُوا شُهَدٰاءَ عَلَى النّٰاسِ فَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ(صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ)الشَّهِيدُ عَلَيْنَا بِمَا بَلَّغَنَا عَنِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ،وَ نَحْنُ الشُّهَدَاءُ عَلَى النَّاسِ،فَمَنْ صَدَّقَ صَدَّقْنَاهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ،وَ مَنْ كَذَّبَ كَذَّبْنَاهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ

الكافي 1:4/147

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36 minutes ago, Cool said:

All Muslims? Or the descendents of Ibrahim (عليه السلام)? 

 

Both. It's context of revelation of the verses is the early Medina period.

So it's addressing the ummah of the time who are the descendants of Nabi Ibrahim. But we has the whole ummah are also addressed. The theme of striving in the way of Allah applies to all of us.

The ummah at the time of revelation and the ummah of the future share the responsibility.

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15 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Sheikh Al-Saduq narrated with his chain of narrators, that Obaidullah bin Abdullah bin Al-Hassan bin Jafar bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Hassan bin Ali said: I asked Ali bin Musa bin Jafar, peace be upon them, about what is said about Banu Al-Aftas?

He said: “God, the Mighty and the Majestic, brought out from the Children of Israel, which is Ya`qub bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim, peace be upon him, twelve tribes, and made in them the prophethood and the book [i.e. a tribe that belong to the two men], and he spread the two men of the sons of Ya`qub among them from among the ten believers. Fatimah, the daughter of the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, and the family of twelve tribes. 

Then he counted the twelve sons of Israel and said: Rubel ibn Ya’qub, Simeon ibn Ya’qub, Yehuda ibn Ya’qub, Shajar ibn Ya’qub, Zilun ibn Yaqoub, Yusuf ibn Ya‘qub, Benjamin ibn Ya‘qub, and Naftali. Ibn Yaqub, Dan Ibn Yaqub, and three of them fell from the lineage of Abu al-Hasan. 

Then he counted the twelve sons of al-Hasan and al-Husayn, peace be upon them, and said: As for al-Hasan, it spread from six descendants, and they are the sons of al-Hasan ibn Zaid ibn al-Hasan ibn Ali, and the sons of al-Hasan ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan. The sons of Ali, the sons of Ibrahim Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Dawood Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali, the sons of Jaafar Bin Al Hassan Bin Al Hassan Bin Ali.

Al-Hussein, peace be upon him He said: The children of Muhammad bin Ali Al-Baqir bin Ali bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, peace be upon them, are a line, the children of Abdullah bin Al-Bahir bin Ali, the children of Zaid bin Ali bin Al-Hussein, the children of Al-Hussain bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, the children of Omar bin Ali bin Al-Hussain bin Ali, and the children of Ali. Bin Ali Bin Al-Hussein Bin Ali,

so these are the six innermost ones that God, the Mighty and Sublime, has spread from Al-Hussain Bin Ali, peace be upon them.” [Al-Khisal: 466]

I have noticed intellectual dishonesty from your post once again. 

Now you have quoted this hadith from your books. I have found the proof of it. But I will add the text later. Fact of the matter is that your books too contains ahadith of 12 Imams lol.

So you interpret the ahadith like you have quoted the above one. So lets assume for a while 6 sons of Al-Hassan (عليه السلام) & 6 sons of Al-Hussain (عليه السلام) are the Imams. But why you have missed Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) ? :hahaha:

So you counting actually reached to 15. 

12 sons of Hasnain (عليه السلام) + 3 (Ali (عليه السلام) , Hassan a s & Hussain (عليه السلام))

Now take reference of your book:

في (التحف شرح الزلف) قال: (واعلم ان الله عزوجل جعل خلف النبوة من ابناء نبيه في اثنى عشر سبطاً، قال الإمام الرضا (عليه السلام) : ان الله عزوجل اخرج من بني إسرائيل يعقوب بن اسحاق بن ابراهيم اثنى عشر سبطاً، ثم عد الاثنى عشر من ولد إسرائيل، وكذلك اخرج من ولد الحسن والحسين اثنى عشر سبطاً... لا ينقطع عقبهم إلى انقطاع التكليف، وهم بمنزلة اسباط بني اسرائيل حجة الله على خلقه وأمان أهل الأرض من استيصال عذابه)

Now see what your own books are discussing. 

حجة الله على خلقه وأمان أهل الأرض who are these according to you? 

قال الإمام الهادي إلى الحق يحيى بن الحسين... قال الإمام الناصر: (فلو كان أهل البيت أربعة فقط لكان قد ذهب أهل الأرض) قلت: اخبار النجوم والأمان شهيرة رواها الإمام أبو طالب، والمرشد بالله، والإمام المنصور بأسانيدهم، قلت هذا الخبر يفيد على ان متابعتهم أمان من الاختلاف كما ان وجودهم أمان من الذهاب والهلاك)

(لوامع الانوار للسيد مجد الدين المؤيدي)

See your own books, who are these personalities whose non existence could be the reason of non existence of ahl al ard? 

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Do you genuinely believe that? Because I, and a billion+ Muslims can't seem to infer that the Quran mentioning Imam in singular form 5 times, and in plural form 7 times refers to 12 infallible Imams designated by Allah. 

Why does the quran mention in exactly 12 times the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

 ۗ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

And Allah presents examples for the people that perhaps they will be reminded. (14:25)

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

Is it not denial of 12 verses of quran by your school of thought?

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

 

 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Why did the nation became wondering and took the Abu bakr as first caliph even there were hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and clear instructions to follow Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after the prophet s..w as Maula and caliph of believers ? Do you not accept the Ghadeer declaration for Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? 

As you think there were not clear instruction to follow twelve imams (zaydis thought) then the above question still needs remains answered.

Has the same not repeated in similar manner for 11 imams?

Brother you seem reluctant to accept the truth of history of islam, as it does not suit your thoughts.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, User 313 said:

The common view among all Muslims is that Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) will accompany the Mahdi (عليه السلام). According to the Zaidi POV, how is it possible that Twelvers will reject their advent? Will Twelvers (according to Zaidis) dismiss Isa (عليه السلام) as a charlatan also? I am just trying to understand the Zaidi take on all this. 

That's not the point I am making, what I am saying is the convenience of saying every banner before the coming of the true Mahdi is a banner of misguidance cannot be more than accommodating to those oppressors!

It has nothing to do with actually supporting the Mahdi. Yazid, Mu'aqiyah and their ilk (the Abbasids), don't even believe in Islam; instead they utilize the religion to serve their deviant aims and lusts for power. Groups like the Zaydis who continued to revolt against oppressor's like the Umayyad's and the Abbasids had to be repelled, creating this concept of an occult Imam served them in terms of establishing a similar ideology that was created for the Sunnis in terms of predestination, the Jabriyyah were backed by the Ummayads because they also presented a convenient ideology which states that the actions of the tyrants are not their fault, rather they are all predestined by Allah! 

Therefore, they maintained that we ought to not rebel against a Caliph even if he was an open-sinner! Is this not the Islam of Saudi Arabia? 

Fast forward a thousand+ years and you had great people like Imam Khomeini seeing the complete idiocy of sitting for a millennium waiting for a Mahdi when he could instead revolt and seek to establish justice - which may be lacking, is certainly better than what the Shah was bringing. 

Our question is why? Why do you need to create a theory called Wilayat Al-Faqih when we have it as pillar of our religion? Wilayat Faqih is an orthodox Zaydi model, and it took twelvers 1,000+ years to figure it out, before that they were slandering us and calling every Husseini and Hassani banner, 'a banner of misguidance'.

They painfully slander the son of the 10th Imam Ali Al-Hadi by calling him Ja'far the liar, where in reality Ja'far the purified was doing what it took them over a millennium to finally figure out and catch up. 

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Posted (edited)

The truth is evident with the verses of quran whether some one tries his best to fill the threads and posts with lies from distorted words of scholars and Daef / weak hadiths:

 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 7/23/2021 at 9:50 AM, Muslim2010 said:

Why does the quran mention in exactly 12 times the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

 ۗ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

And Allah presents examples for the people that perhaps they will be reminded. (14:25)

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

Is it not denial of 12 verses of quran by your school of thought?

It can only be answered and accepted by those  who are true believers in the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet for following his progeny including 12 Imams. wasalam

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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

hadith of the prophet for following his progeny including 12 Imams.

There is no such Hadith.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There is no such Hadith.

The first source of guidance in religion is Quran, that asks us to ponder over its verses. That also include its format text and structure. The following is the statement coming from the verses of quran:

Why does the quran mention exactly 12 times in its verses the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

Why does the quran mention exactly 12 times in its verses  the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

Why does the quran mention exactly 12 times in its verses the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

 ۗ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

And Allah presents examples for the people that perhaps they will be reminded. (14:25)

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly we have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

Is it not denial of 12 verses of Quran by your school of thought mentioning 12 imams? 

Is there not a plethora of hadith from sunni and shia sources about the count and names of 12 Imams (these hadiths have presented many times in these threads)?

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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4 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Why does the quran mention exactly 12 times in its verses the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

 

How can someone infer that those 12 are your particular Imams, as there are others who could cling to a separate 12. 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Zaidism said:

How can someone infer that those 12 are your particular Imams, as there are others who could cling to a separate 12. 

1.      The hadith Thaqyln mentions Book of Alalh (Quran) and Ahl alalbayt (Itrati Ahli bati ie progeny of the prophet) they both are not separated. They are to be followed and we both believe it.

2.      The Quran mentions the confirmation of 12 Imams in its format of verses as the word imam has been used exactly 12 times to validate the presence of 12 imams in our nation and no mindful can deny this fact.

3.      There is plethora of sunni and shia hadith (most of these have been presented in these threads). These clearly mention the names of 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (from  itrat ie progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) . These include Imam Ali, Imam Hassan, Imam Husain and 9 descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). The 12th Imam and 9th descendant is Imam Al Mahdi. This is a valid evidence for the identification of those 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet inline with the verses of quran as well as hadith Thaqlyn.

4.      We both take Imam Ali, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussain and Imam Ali bin Hussain (Sajjad) (عليه السلام) in common as imams out of those 12.

5.      Also there is no single hadith in sources that mentions any alternate set of 12 imams and the identification & confirmation of 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet is well proven.

6.      Other sects have to adopt cherry picking to fill the gap for list of 12 imams instead of taking the hadith of prophet inline with the verses of quran for 12 imams as part of belief in religion.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Imam Ali bin Hussain (Sajjad) (عليه السلام) in common as imams

There is no evidence for the designation of Imam Al-Sajjad, nor did he claim Imamate. Therefore, this is false and we the Zaidiyyah believe the Imam Sajjid, Imam Baqir, and Imam Sadiq to be Imams of 'ilm. As for designated Imams there is no evidence for such designation besides the first three. We can agree to disagree as I have demonstrated unequivocally why that is the case. You restating points that have been refuted many times entails a necessity to halt our dialogue and await someone who can bring something new to the table. 

وروى ابن عسَاكر ، بإسنادِه ، سَمِعتُ هَاشِم بن البَريد يَقول: سَمعتُ زَيد بن عَلي يَقول: ((المَعصُومُون مِنّا خَمسةٌ النبيّ [صلى الله عليه وعلى آله] – وَعَليّ وفَاطِمَةَ والحسَنَ والحُسين)) [تاريخ مدينة دمشق:19/464]

It has been narrated by Imam Zayd b. Ali:

The infallibles - from us (the Ahlulbayt) are five; the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) Ali, Fatema, Hassan, and Hussein.

Of course our understanding of infallibility differs - it is consistent with the Qur'an - they can make minor mistakes, forget things, etc. However, their judgement [based on the apparent context] does not err. 
 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

5.      Also there is no single hadith in sources that mentions any alternate set of 12 imams and the identification & confirmation of 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet is well proven.

The Sunnis answer this by saying those 12 were the first 12 caliphs in Islam, their explanation actually makes a lot more sense than yours. Although I disagree with both, as this is a forged Hadith - (a) my evidence is establishing the motivation to use it, and (b) maintaining the fact that not a single Imammi used this Hadith (ever) to argue for their school of thought. For example, when debating with Waqifis who believe in only 7 of those 12 Imams, never once is this 12 Hadith mentioned. Coincidentally it seems to appear after the belief in a twelfth Imam is disseminated. Furthermore, there are those who created Hadiths which reach the Prophet that explicitly state Abu Bakr is his successor, of course we both reject those as forgeries. 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

clearly mention the names of 12 Imams

The Mutawater narrations have specified the Imams (عليه السلام) by number, not by naming them one by one. Hence, the possibility of doubting the succeeding Imam (عليه السلام) after the preceding Imam (عليه السلام) remained possible. Infact, concealing the name of the Imam (عليه السلام) from the people, except the close companions, was in favour of interest during that time.

al-Khoei, in his book Sirat al-Najat 2/452:

So, we have a consensus regarding the Imams not being named by the Prophet, Alhamdulilah. Even if Al-Khoei didn't state this, it can easily be demonstrated by pointing to the ignorance of the companions, jurists, and close relatives of the Imams regarding who the next Imam is.

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

cherry picking

If anything, you've exemplified cherry picking. Taking 12 months from the Quran, or Imam in plural form 7 times, Imam in singular for 5 times, proceeding to add those together; taking Hadith Al-Thaqalayn and forcefully reading your bias into it. You then go on to take a solitary report, which is from an Ummayad and contradicts itself in the matn by saying the Muslim Ummah will be in Khayr as long as these twelve are around. It is very sad to see someone basing their core beliefs on such weak evidences. 

12 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

sunni

Brother, I've responded to the Hadith of 12 Caliphs a lot, from now on I will just link this:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/6b043d6c-6d62-4f64-9891-f5c37a36a729/downloads/A Zaydi response to the hadith on the twelve C.pdf?ver=1613893403766

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

our understanding of infallibility differs - it is consistent with the Qur'an - they can make minor mistakes, forget things, etc. However, their judgement [based on the apparent context] does not err. 

The hadith of safinah is with you. And you know that this safinah is not just merely an ark. It is the سفينة النجاة 

If those, who are the likes of "Ark of Noah" commit errors, mistakes, they would fear for the نجاة of themselves in the very first place. Therefore, if you truly believe Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the سفينة النجاة، you have to accept them as ones who are free from errors & mistakes, and that is not on their own, but by the grace of Almighty Lord. 

 ما ضل صاحبكم و ما غوا

If you believe that Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the guided ones, the ones whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has guided, and they are the "mukhlaseen", you have no way left but to accept them as "infallibles". 

من يهد الله فما له من مضل

Furthermore, the Ark of Noah is not perished with the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), the Imams after him are the Ark of Noah and that includes Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) to Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام), all of them are infallibles.

Furthermore, you accept Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) as حبل الله المتين. And you have been assured that this rope will never break and would cause you to drop from the heights. This again points towards infallibility.

So it is better to review what you currently assume about the infallibility of Imams. 

Your choosen & authorized fallible Imams cannot be like the ones whom God has choosen and granted them the authority. 

Wassalam!!

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

1.      The hadith Thaqyln mentions Book of Alalh (Quran) and Ahl alalbayt (Itrati Ahli bati ie progeny of the prophet) they both are not separated. They are to be followed and we both believe it.

2.      The Quran mentions the confirmation of 12 Imams in its format of verses as the word imam has been used exactly 12 times to validate the presence of 12 imams in our nation and no mindful can deny this fact.

3.      There is plethora of sunni and shia hadith (most of these have been presented in these threads). These clearly mention the names of 12 Imams from Ahl albayt (from  itrat ie progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) . These include Imam Ali, Imam Hassan, Imam Husain and 9 descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). The 12th Imam and 9th descendant is Imam Al Mahdi. This is a valid evidence for the identification of those 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet inline with the verses of quran as well as hadith Thaqlyn.

4.      We both take Imam Ali, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussain and Imam Ali bin Hussain (Sajjad) (عليه السلام) in common as imams out of those 12.

5.      Also there is no single hadith in sources that mentions any alternate set of 12 imams and the identification & confirmation of 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet is well proven.

6.      Other sects have to adopt cherry picking to fill the gap for list of 12 imams instead of taking the hadith of prophet inline with the verses of quran for 12 imams as part of belief in religion.

wasalam

We stay at our words inline with the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) whether cherry picking of few names is continued by some Zadiya SC fellows to reject the truth.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The Sunnis answer this by saying those 12 were the first 12 caliphs in Islam, their explanation actually makes a lot more sense than yours. Although I disagree with both, as this is a forged Hadith - (a) my evidence is establishing the motivation to use it, and (b) maintaining the fact that not a single Imammi used this Hadith (ever) to argue for their school of thought. 

1. Where is the hadith mentioning names of 12 imams other than those 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

I follow hadith thaqlyna thats why i reject the possibility of any other set of 12 imams.

2.   The basis of religion is the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet not a distorted words or misquoted words or personal perception of one scholar. We have plethora of hadith for the count & names of 12 imams from the progeny of the prophet thats why our stance is like solid rock not like others who take few names by cherry picking from the mud. :grin:

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

If anything, you've exemplified cherry picking. Taking 12 months from the Quran, or Imam in plural form 7 times, Imam in singular for 5 times, proceeding to add those together; taking Hadith Al-Thaqalayn and forcefully reading your bias into it. 

The first source of guidance in religion is Quran, that asks us to ponder over its verses. That also include its format text and structure. The following is the statement coming from the verses of quran:

Why does the quran mention exactly 12 times in its verses the word Imam if there were no 12 Imams in our nation?

Do you attribute falsehood to the verses of quran?

 ۗ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

And Allah presents examples for the people that perhaps they will be reminded. (14:25)

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا

And certainly we have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

So it is like denial of 12 verses of Quran by your school of thought mentioning 12 imams, no doubt remain on it.

wasalam 

Edited by Muslim2010
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