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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imams Superior To Prophets!

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5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Nothing in this indicates some kind of inferiority 'by essence'.

Brother according to Sheikh Al-Mufeed:

The Imamis are unanimously agreed that the prophets of God Almighty and His Messengers from among humans are better than the angels

أوائل المقالات - الشيخ المفيد ص 49، 50:

17- القول في المفاضلة بين الأنبياء والملائكة عليهم السلام

واتفقت الإمامية على أن أنبياء الله تعالى عز وجل ورسله من البشر أفضل من الملائكة

And I remember there is a hadith in Meezan Al-Hikmah:

عن الإمام الباقر (ع): "ما خلق اللَّه عزّ وجل خلقاً أكرم على اللَّه عزّ وجلّ من المؤمن لأن الملائكة خدّام المؤمنين"

Quran al-Hakim mentions this:

وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَى كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلاً

17:70

 

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5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Nothing in this indicates some kind of inferiority 'by essence'.

Brother according to Sheikh Al-Mufeed:

The Imamis are unanimously agreed that the prophets of God Almighty and His Messengers from among humans are better than the angels

أوائل المقالات - الشيخ المفيد ص 49، 50:

17- القول في المفاضلة بين الأنبياء والملائكة عليهم السلام

واتفقت الإمامية على أن أنبياء الله تعالى عز وجل ورسله من البشر أفضل من الملائكة

And I remember there is a hadith in Meezan Al-Hikmah:

عن الإمام الباقر (ع): "ما خلق اللَّه عزّ وجل خلقاً أكرم على اللَّه عزّ وجلّ من المؤمن لأن الملائكة خدّام المؤمنين"

Quran al-Hakim mentions this:

وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَى كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلاً

17:70

 

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On 7/25/2021 at 11:21 AM, Cool said:

Quran al-Hakim mentions this:

وَلَقَدْ كَرَّمْنَا بَنِي آدَمَ وَحَمَلْنَاهُمْ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَرَزَقْنَاهُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَفَضَّلْنَاهُمْ عَلَى كَثِيرٍ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا تَفْضِيلاً

17:70

The verse says:

'most of those' not 'all of those'. So, the absolute superiority is discarded. And humans are above 'most of' the creation definitely.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

The verse says:

'most of those' not 'all of those'. So, the absolute superiority is discarded. And humans are above 'most of' the creation definitely.

:) Lets see when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created the angels according to Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام):

وبإسناده إلى جابر الجعفي، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: قال:
يا جابر كان الله ولا شئ غيره (و) لا معلوم ولا مجهول، فأول ما ابتدأ من خلق خلقه أن خلق محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله وخلقنا أهل البيت معه من نور عظمته فأوقفنا أظلة خضراء بين يديه حيث لا سماء ولا أرض ولا مكان ولا ليل ولا نهار ولا شمس ولا قمر يفصل نورنا من نور ربنا كشعاع الشمس من الشمس نسبح الله ونقدسه ونحمده ونعبده حق عبادته، ثم بدا لله أن يخلق المكان فخلقه (1) وكتب على المكان (لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله عي أمير المؤمنين ووصيه به أيدته ونصرته) ثم خلق الله العرش فكتب على سرادقات العرش مثل ذلك، ثم خلق الله السماوات فكتب على أطرافها مثل ذلك، ثم خلق الجنة والنار فكتب عليهما مثل ذلك، ثم خلق الملائكة فأسكنهم (2) السماء، ثم خلق الهواء فكتب عليه مثل ذلك، ثم خلق الجن فأسكنهم الهواء، ثم خلق الأرض فكتب على أطرافها مثل ذلك، فبذلك يا جابر قامت السماوات بغير عمد، وثبتت الأرض، ثم خلق الله آدم من أديم الأرض ثم ساق الحديث الطويل إلى قوله فنحن أول خلق الله. وأول خلق عبد الله وسبحه، ونحن سب الخلق وسبب تسبيحهم وعبادتهم من الملائكة والآدميين (تمام الخبر).

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1485_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٥٤/الصفحة_171#top

And the ahadith explaining the above quoted verse are here:

كرامة بني آدم الكتاب * (ولقد كرمنا بني آدم وحملناهم في البر والبحر ورزقناهم من الطيبات وفضلناهم على كثير ممن خلقنا تفضيلا) * [1]. - رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): ما شئ أكرم على الله من ابن آدم، قيل: يا رسول الله ! ولا الملائكة ؟ ! قال: الملائكة مجبورون، بمنزلة الشمس والقمر 

 

الإمام الصادق (عليه السلام): لما اسري برسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) حضرت الصلاة، فأذن وأقام جبرئيل، فقال: يا محمد تقدم، فقال رسول الله: تقدم يا جبرئيل: فقال له: إنا لا نتقدم الآدميين منذ امرنا بالسجود لآدم (عليه السلام)

 

ما يوجب تفضيل الإنسان على الملائكة - الإمام الصادق (عليه السلام) - وقد سأله عبد الله بن سنان: الملائكة أفضل أم بنو آدم ؟ -: قال أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب (عليه السلام): إن الله عزوجل ركب في الملائكة عقلا بلا شهوة، وركب في البهائم شهوة بلا عقل، وركب في بني آدم كلتيهما، فمن غلب عقله شهوته فهو خير من الملائكة، ومن غلبت شهوته عقله فهو شرمن البهائم 

http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/11023/1/223

I think these ahadith resolve the issue.

By this one should not undermine the great station of angels as our Imam al-Sajjad (عليه السلام) praised the angels like this:

اللهم وحملة عرشك الذين لايفترون من تسبيحك ... ، ورسلك من الملائكة إلى أهل الأرض بمكروه ، ما ينزل من البلاء ومحبوب الرخاء ، والسفرة الكرام البررة ، والحفظة الكرام الكاتبين ، وملك الموت وأعوانه ، ومنكر ونكير ، ورومان فتّان القبور ، والطائفين بالبيت المعمور ، ومالك والخزنة ، ورضوان وسدنة الجنان ، والذين لا يعصون الله ما أمرهم ، ويفعلون ما يؤمرون ، والذين يقولون : سلام عليكم بما صبرتم فنعم عقبى الدار ، والزبانية الذين إذا قيل لهم : (( خذوه فغلوه ثم الجحيم صلوه )) ابتدروه سراعاً ولم ينظروه ، ومن أوهمنا ذكره ، ولم نعلم مكانه منك ، وبأي أمر وكّلته ، وسكّان الهواء والأرض والماء ... )

(الصحيفة السجادية / الدعاء 3 )

Edited by Cool
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Posted (edited)

Messengers could be better than each other, this is known by 2:253.

Also, believers in general are better than angels in general because they actively fight their animalistic desires for sinning which angels lack. If angels were better because of their bodily attributes (essence), many unbelievers would have been better than many believers. This is known by 63:4 and common sense, and is supported by many traditions.

Imamat in general is greater than prophethood, this is known by 2:124. However, this does not mean that each Imam is better than each Prophet, as a Prophet could be a Messenger and an Imam too.

The proof that the Twelve Imams are better than almost all Prophet is that they are the successors to the last Prophet, who is better than them. This can only be established by Twelvers sources though.

But anyway this whole discussion is futile as your-average believer is indeed better than those sinful prophets who almost commit adultery (and other major sins) according to other sects, and only avoid it because God interferes in their act, like how they accused Prophet Joseph of doing.

Edited by Mark Enlightment
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On 7/22/2021 at 7:18 PM, Zainuu said:

Brother @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi once mentioned this in a discussion that Ayatullah Khamenei considers Tafsir Imam Hasan Askari as unauthentic.

It was Sistani Sahab i think. But it isn't relevent since even if he has called it weak, he still used hadith of Taqlid from it to prove taqlid.

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What is that? never heard of it

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/6b043d6c-6d62-4f64-9891-f5c37a36a729/downloads/Musnad Ali Ridha.pdf?ver=1613893403239

I got the original from Al- Islam org.

It's also known as sahifa Imam Ridha.

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On 7/18/2021 at 1:58 PM, Cool said:

mentioned the status of Imam Mehdi ajtf and told that Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) will offer prayers behind him. 

@Zaidism, @Ali bin Hussein, how do you account for the fact that a prophet (and not just any prophet but one of the five greatest prophets) will pray BEHIND  Imam Mahdi (a)? I'm asking you point-blank...I'm asking you in a frank and direct manner

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On 7/26/2021 at 11:21 AM, Mark Enlightment said:

Imamat in general is greater than prophethood

I'm not sure if this statement is accurate brother...al-'Ā'immah (peace be upon them) might be the exception to the general rule...Is Simon Peter or James The Just superior to Jesus? Is Shem superior Noah? Was Joshua higher in rank to Moses? 

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39 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

@Zaidism, @Ali bin Hussein, how do you account for the fact that a prophet (and not just any prophet but one of the five greatest prophets) will pray BEHIND  Imam Mahdi (a)? I'm asking you point-blank...I'm asking you in a frank and direct manner

We don’t have this in our literature - to my knowledge - we also don’t discount the opinion that there won’t be a return for Nabi ‘isa.

With all due respect, if this is really how you hold onto your beliefs. You guys are holding onto straws. 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

With all due respect, if this is really how you hold onto your beliefs. You guys are holding onto straws. 

Zaydiyyah seeking the acceptance of the Sunni majority often try to distance themselves from belief in a Mahdi figure (this despite strong support for the belief in Mahdi by many prominent Sunni traditionists)…Sunni regimes and their ʿulamā mouthpieces were wary of narrating traditions of a Messianic figure who would potentially tear down their political machinations sometime in the near or distant future...hence ahadith mentioning anything related to a 'Mahdi' were deemed spurious...on the other hand, Zaydiyyah were reluctant to disseminate narrations of a future redeemer for exactly the opposite reasons...it would possibly detract or produce idleness or potentially remove get-up-and-go fervor for toppling corrupt leaders...hence such traditions were deemed undesirable for subsequent transmission

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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53 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Zaydiyyah seeking the acceptance of the Sunni majority often try to distance themselves from belief in a Mahdi figure (this despite strong support for the belief in Mahdi by many prominent Sunni traditionists)…Sunni regimes and their ʿulamā mouthpieces were wary of narrating traditions of a Messianic figure who would potentially tear down their political machinations sometime in the near or distant future...hence ahadith mentioning anything related to a 'Mahdi' were deemed spurious...on the other hand, Zaydiyyah were reluctant to disseminate narrations of a future redeemer for exactly the opposite reasons...it would possibly detract or produce idleness or potentially remove get-up-and-go fervor for toppling corrupt leaders...hence such traditions were deemed undesirable for subsequent transmission

Even if we play your game it doesn’t fundamentally prove anything, we can even (hypothetically) say that the Mahdi is superior to Prophets. You can’t reconcile the belief in occult Imamate, this is a pointless discussion which will lead to nothing, and will prove nothing.

Twelvers will stick to these notions, because once they enter the field of practicality their mystical conjecture, theoretics, and metaphysical rhetoric will all collapse when asked to provide active, and practical solutions to the real world. 

It’s influenced a lot of the reasoning we see here on ShiaChat, you went on this whole conspirator tirade of “ Zaydis seeking to hide messianism” when I clearly told you that there is more than one position an individual can take regarding this particular instance. I personally believe Nabi ‘isa will descend, but that is because I haven’t looked into it too deeply and my position is subject to change. 

You can make Sagas if you apply that sophistry to your own traditions. Abbasid Mahdism, the Ghulat, unusual levels of Taqiyyah practiced between the adherents, all being attributed to the Imams.

You have no basis for your claims, and it is as I maintain the influence of twelver sophistry polluting one’s own reasoning and conclusions. 

Do us all a favor and actually study our works, read our history, and present some critical critiques. Double standards are certainly disingenuous and with the way you reached your conclusion, why are you surprised that others conclude that twelvers follow Ibn Saba’ and believe that Imam Ali was the messenger, or even the creator. 

This was quite the blunder brother, but at this point I’m not surprised, before you we had others arguing that there are 12 designated Imams because the Quran mentions 12 months.

I think it’s about time I take a break from this forum.

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3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

@Zaidism, @Ali bin Hussein, how do you account for the fact that a prophet (and not just any prophet but one of the five greatest prophets) will pray BEHIND  Imam Mahdi (a)? I'm asking you point-blank...I'm asking you in a frank and direct manner

Majority of Zaidi scholarly opinion is Prophet Isa wont return. 

Point blank I don't believe he will return. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Majority of Zaidi scholarly opinion is Prophet Isa wont return. 

Do you know why there is disagreement among Zaidi scholars when it comes to this? 

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1 hour ago, Zaidism said:

You can make Sagas if you apply that sophistry to your own traditions. Abbasid Mahdism

 Salam according to your definition  of Mahdi , The Abbasid Mahdism is a zydi belief.

Quote

Uprising of Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah al-Mahd

Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah b. al-Hasan, also known as al-Nafs al-Zakiyya (the Pure Soul), was regarded by some people as the Mahdi. Before the victory of Abbasid revolution, al-Mansur and al-Saffah paid allegiance to him and were of his missionaries. Muhammad's revolt took place in 145/762-63 in Medina, where he was called Amir al-Mu'minin (the Commander of the Faithful). When al-Mansur became the caliph, he wrote Muhammad letters, threatening him but at the same time giving him safety if he ended his revolt. Muhammad disregarded al-Mansur's letters, so the latter send an army to Medina. In the battle that took place there, Muhammad's revolt was suppressed and Muhammad himself was killed; his head was circulated in Kufa and then taken to the caliph.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Zaydiyya

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In the View of Imam al-Sadiq (a)

Imam al-Sadiq (a) opposed the allegiance in Abwa', as some reports mentioned that his disagreement to allegiance to Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah was because Muhammad regarded himself as the promised Mahdi. Imam (a) believed that it was not the right time for Mahdi (a) to be appeared and Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah did not have the characteristics of the promised Mahdi.[5]

The other reason for disagreement of Imam (a) was that he knew Banu Abbas would break their oath of allegiance to Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah, and their purpose of taking the oath to him was get close to Alavis and prepare situation for themselves to achieve power and caliphate.[6]

A number of historians also mentioned that Imam al-Sadiq (a) similar to his father, Imam al-Baqir (a), disagreed with rebels. He was practicing the cultural Shi'ism attitude[7] which was in contrary to political Shi'ism attitude that Zaydis and Alavis were practicing.

However some reports mentioned that the only reason Imam al-Sadiq (a) disagreed with taking oath of allegiance to Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah was that he called himself the promised Mahdi. Also Imam (a) did not oppose the rebel of Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah against tyranny and practicing enjoying the good and forbidding the evil.[8]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Muhammad_b._Abd_Allah_b._al-Hasan

Quote

In the political and theological history of the Zaydi sect, and with this definition of personal Mahdism, there is only one person, namely Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, known as Nafs Zakia, who is an example of this kind of Mahdism. Although some people did not consider Zakia's belief in Mahdism and followed it through Sadat Hassani  movement (Elahizadeh, 226-231), but the early sectarian writers and the Zaydis themselves did not do so and considered him a part of the Zaydis and Zaydi Imams . They have made him one of their Imams (Ash'ari, 1440: 67; Baghdadi, 23; Nobakhti, 58-59; Aboutaleb Harouni, 2014: 47-52; Hassani, 424-444). Therefore, it would not be right for us not to consider him as a Zaydi with a posteriori claim and contrary to the historical tradition, and to have ijtihad against the text.

What about him and according to the alleged narrations related to his name and lineage are the physical characteristics and signs of emergence. (Baradaran, 1396: 122-129) In his period, the narrations that consider Mahdi and his father similar, and agree with the same name of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and his father (Abdullah) were very important and emphasized. So much so that according to some narrations, the name of Mahdi was explicitly mentioned as "Muhammad ibn Abdullah". (Ibn Hammad, 260; Hakim Neyshabouri, vol. 8, 2972 _ 2997; Abolfaraj Isfahani, 214) (Baradaran, 1396: 123)

In addition to nominal features; Physical characteristics such as the mole on the shoulder of Muhammad (Abolfaraj, 211-214) which was known as the mole of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) (Ibn Sa'd, vol. 1, 123, 128, 272, 315, 319) or the stuttering of Nafs Zakia  (Tabari, vol. 7 , 563) and its application to the narrations and reports that considered the Promised One to be heavy in language (Abolfaraj, 213-215); It were encouraged  to think he was Mahdi. Narrations that special features such as special events in the month of Rajab or the number of Mahdi's companions, etc. have also had an effect on the idea that Nafs Zakia is promised savior(Baradaran, 1396: 127-128). That some of them were not Shiites, such as Malik ibn Anas, the leader of the Malikis, and Abu Hanifa, the Hanafi Imam, in support of the uprising of 145 AH of Muhammad and did not consider it permissible betraying  him. (Abolfaraj, 238 _ 239 and 251; Jafarian, 78)

 

Quote

Examples of such claimants in various sects include the claim of Mahdism of Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Tomrat al-Alawi al-Hassani (d. 524 AH), the founder of the Muwaḥḥidūn ("Almohads") government in the Maghreb (Annan, 1987(1366 sun calendar): 173-174; Omar Musa, 2002(1381 sun calendar): 40-41); He mentioned the claim of Mahdism of the Fatimid caliphs and their graduality of it in this dynasty. (Farmanian, 1393(sun calendar): 158). Among the Zaydis, we can also refer to the claim of Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Qasim ibn Hassan, known as Ibn Dai (d. 360 AH). Ibn Da'i considered himself the Mahdi and was called the Mahdi. However, less Zaydi and non-Zaydi sources have paid attention to the claim of Mahdism by him and his followers (Haruni, 1417: 137-150). In addition to him, and in later periods, we can mention Mahdi Tahami in Yemen, who appeared in Yemen in 1159 AH and was able to defeat the Hamdanid government in Sanaa and the Najah government in Zubayd. (Brocklamat, 1993: 324-326) One of the last Zaydi claimants of Yemen is the claim of Mahdism of Mahmoud bin Abdullah Al-Muflahi in 2004, which was not very successful and failed. (Al-Yamamah Magazine No. 1831, Saturday 23 Ramadan 1425 AH, Al-Mawafiq 6 November 2004)

https://hawzah.net/fa/Article/View/97912/درآمدی-بر-جوهره-چیستی-و-چرایی-مهدویت-در-زیدیه

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Abu Zayd Alavi's belief in Mahdism
One of the Zaydi scholars who strongly opposes the belief in Mahdism and the absence of Imam al-Asr (عليه السلام) is Abu Zayd al-Alavi (4th century AH).

Abu Zayd considers the Imamiyya belief in the Absent Imam unreasonable and unjustified. At first, he basically damages the existence of Imam al-Asr (عليه السلام) and says that the Imamiahs, when they reached Hasan ibn Ali (Imam Askari (as)), claimed a son for him and called him "Khalaf Saleh" and this boy He died before his father.

That the Zaydis believe in the principle of Mahdism, because of society's need for greater justice and universal savior. But they differ in the interpretation of this meaning with the Imami Shiites
Another issue that Abu Zayd raises in this regard is the "recognition" of the Imam. He emphasizes that the Zaydis do not consider Imamate permissible for someone who is unknown and there is no way to know the Imam of the time claimed by the Imamate. Someone who is unknown seems to be extincted and Imamate is not permissible for the extincted.

Abu Zayd, for more doubts about Mahdism, argues in the verse "و کنت علیهم شهیدا ما دمت فیهم,I witnessed them whilst living in their midst" that the Imam is a wittness  over the ummah and a witness over their deeds, and someone is considered a "witness " who invites good and enjoins what is good and forbids what is evil. To do revolt toward jihad, not to be an unknown person; Because witnessing takes place on what is obvious, not on the unseen.

The result of his words is that what should be considered is that when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded the people to adhere to the lineage, according to reason, custom and manners, the meaning of the Prophet; The scholars, the pious and the virtuous were from Atrat, not ignorants. So, what is obligatory on Muslims is to find out in whom the knowledge of religion, grace, asceticism, patience, independence in matter, etc. has been gathered so that they can adhere to it along with the Book of Allah.

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/5:117

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Proponents of Mahdism in Zaydia

It seems that the relation of the negation of Mahdism to Zaydiyya is correct in general, not for general; Because it is said that some Zaidi sects such as Jaroudiyah and the followers of Yahya ibn Muhammad Sahib of Kufa believe in I Maktoum Imam. It is also said that Imam Hadi al-Haqq believed that the last Imam , is from the sons of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) before the end of the world.

Imam Zaidi Abdullah Ibn Hamza (AD 614 AH) says: "All Shiites, despite their differences, but the entire Muslim Ummah believe in the Mahdi and the Mahdi is an Imam who will appear at the end of time and rule over all the earth and all religions  will bow down in front of him, his flag will not fall to the ground, and the earth will reveal its treasures to him, and the blessings of heaven will fall, and the blessings of the earth will appear, and new streams that have no precedent in the Arab land will flow, Allah by him will rule the right over the wrong, and in his time  Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام) will kill  the Dajjal. There are many narrations in this regard."

Abdullah Ibn Hamzah goes on to mention in detail some Zaydi and non-Zaydi narrations about the Promised Mahdi.

Throughout history, a number of Zaydi leaders have been claimed to be Mahdis. The following is a list of Zaydi leaders about whom such a claim was made in the first centuries:

1- Zayd Ibn Ali Ibn Hussein Ibn Ali Ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) (AD 122 AH)

2- Nafs Zakia, Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Hassan ibn Hassan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) (AD 145 AH)

3- Muhammad ibn Qasim ibn Ali ibn Umar ibn Ali ibn Husayn ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) (AD 219 AH)

4- Yahya Ibn Umar Ibn Yahya Ibn Hussein Ibn Zayd Ibn Ali Ibn Hussein Ibn Ali Ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) (AD 250 AH)

https://article.tebyan.net/271922/اعتقاد-زیدیه-به-مهدویت

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, User 313 said:

Do you know why there is disagreement among Zaidi scholars when it comes to this? 

Yes   I asked a more knowledgeable  brother and early sources neither confirm or deny it. And there are some hadith that have been mentioned by Imams regarding the return of Nabi Isa.

As it's not a matter of aqeeda or fiqh I'm using my own understanding to say I feel the argument he won't return us stronger.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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On 7/20/2021 at 12:51 AM, Cool said:

Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

Salam bro,

It seems this is quite insufficient.

Many are offspring of Ibrahim.  How do you connect only imams to this? 

The hadith you mentioned where Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Afzal  to other prophets contradicts Quran in many places.

 

ءَامَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَآ أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَّبِّهِۦ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ  ۚ كُلٌّ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلٰٓئِكَتِهِۦ وَكُتُبِهِۦ وَرُسُلِهِۦ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْ رُّسُلِهِۦ  ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا  ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.""

(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 285)

قُولُوٓا ءَامَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَآ أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَآ أُنْزِلَ إِلٰىٓ إِبْرٰهِـۧمَ وَإِسْمٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسٰى وَعِيسٰى وَمَآ أُوتِىَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُۥ مُسْلِمُونَ
"Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.""
(QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 136)

 

قُلْ ءَامَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَآ أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَآ أُنْزِلَ عَلٰىٓ إِبْرٰهِيمَ وَإِسْمٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسٰى وَعِيسٰى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُۥ مُسْلِمُو

"Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 84)

 

If there are no distinctions for believers to make between messengers, then there's no distinction to make of their offspring, and that would include imams.

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

The hadith you mentioned where Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Afzal  to other prophets contradicts Quran in many places.

 

4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

If there are no distinctions for believers to make between messengers,

Wa alaikum as-salaam,

But doesn't it say in the Qur'an (2:253):

تِلْكَ ٱلرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍۢ ۘ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ ٱللَّهُ ۖ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَتٍۢ ۚ وَءَاتَيْنَا عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ ٱلْبَيِّنَتِ وَأَيَّدْنَهُ بِرُوحِ ٱلْقُدُسِ ۗ وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مَا ٱقْتَتَلَ ٱلَّذِينَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِم مِّنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَتْهُمُ ٱلْبَيِّنَتُ وَلَكِنِ ٱخْتَلَفُوا۟ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ ءَامَنَ وَمِنْهُم مَّن كَفَرَ ۚ وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مَا ٱقْتَتَلُوا۟ وَلَكِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ

Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

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1 hour ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

 

Wa alaikum as-salaam,

But doesn't it say in the Qur'an (2:253):

تِلْكَ ٱلرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍۢ ۘ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ ٱللَّهُ ۖ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَتٍۢ ۚ وَءَاتَيْنَا عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ ٱلْبَيِّنَتِ وَأَيَّدْنَهُ بِرُوحِ ٱلْقُدُسِ ۗ وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مَا ٱقْتَتَلَ ٱلَّذِينَ مِنۢ بَعْدِهِم مِّنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَتْهُمُ ٱلْبَيِّنَتُ وَلَكِنِ ٱخْتَلَفُوا۟ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ ءَامَنَ وَمِنْهُم مَّن كَفَرَ ۚ وَلَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مَا ٱقْتَتَلُوا۟ وَلَكِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يُرِيدُ

Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

True.

Though I never interpreted this as excelling over other prophets in terms of importance or significance/personal hierarchy...but rather rank/station in life.

For example Suleiman/Dawood pbu them, were Kings while, Isa, Muhammad, pbu them were shepherds/merchant/...simple humble roles.

Allah specifically says "We caused.." in other words through NO merit of these prophes' own did they achieve what they have in rank/role.  Then  Allah presents the example of Isa with being provided the Spirit/Ruh Qudsi to him, important miracles yet those endowments did not cause the people to follow Isa despite Allah causing his rank/station/exalting of gifts over other prophets... the  people still inevitably fought and differed with one another and did not follow Isa... 

I think it's rather important we acknowledge this distinction because the quran says beleivers shall make no distinction between these men, in that Allah causing some to have different attributes or stations/ranks does not change anything about the prophets.  . they are still human.. whom Allah bestowed upon these attributes and without those attributes they are just plain men.  those attributes are mutually exclusive events to their character, behavior, and being/existence. it didn't define them.

again, for emphasis I interpreted these to mean some prophets excel in abilities/stations in life...was through Allah SAW and it never made them more special than one another..

Otherwise there is contradiction in Quran. and there can't as such.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Majority of Zaidi scholarly opinion is Prophet Isa wont return. 

Point blank I don't believe he will return. 

Fair enough

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7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Many are offspring of Ibrahim.  How do you connect only imams to this? 

Alaikas-Salam Bro!

We can connect with Imams by understanding the attribute mentioned in the verse i.e., they will not be unjust (ظالمين). And Quran mentions the bearers of this divine covenant in several places.

7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

The hadith you mentioned where Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Afzal  to other prophets contradicts Quran in many places

I think there is not difference of opinion in Muslim Ummah on the fact that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Imam of Anbiya or Syed ul Anbiya. 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِلْعَالَمِينَ {107}

[Shakir 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

What happen during Isra wal Mairaj is another evidence. The nearness of two bows or even less as well as the report which mentions that all the messengers have offered prayer in the Imamate of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) etc. 

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنْصُرُنَّهُ ۚ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي ۖ قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا ۚ قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ {81}

[Shakir 3:81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

The condition on which Prophethood is given to every Prophet is mentioned above and that condition makes every Prophet, Ummah of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in a sense.

7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

If there are no distinctions for believers to make between messengers, then there's no distinction to make of their offspring, and that would include imams

As brother has quoted 2:253 above. There is no need to say anything. It is clear in its meaning whether you try to interpret in any sense. We have a concept of Ulul Azm Prophets and Quran mentions this:

وَلَقَدْ عَهِدْنَا إِلَىٰ آدَمَ مِنْ قَبْلُ فَنَسِيَ وَلَمْ نَجِدْ لَهُ عَزْمًا {115}

[Shakir 20:115] And certainly We gave a commandment to Adam before, but he forgot; and We did not find in him any determination.

And there is a famous hadith which would sum up my comment, is that:

كنت نبيا وآدم بين الماء والطين 

Wassalam!!

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Even if we play your game

Not playing games...trying to uncover truth...don't get emotional 

22 hours ago, Zaidism said:

it doesn’t fundamentally prove anything

Sure it does

22 hours ago, Zaidism said:

we can even (hypothetically) say that the Mahdi is superior to Prophets.

I'm telling you that the Sunnis (who compose 85% of the Muslims and a sizable chunk from among them consider the narrations of Jesus praying behind Imam Mahdi to be reliable) and 15% of the Muslims (i.e. Twelvers) have similar or identical narrations and likewise consider them to be sahih...why don't you possess these ahadith in your books?? Sounds like something fishy is going on 

22 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You can’t reconcile the belief in occult Imamate

Different discussion entirely...we're not talking about occultation...we're discussing the ranking of various Prophets and various Imams and if it's theoretically possible for some Imams to surpass some prophets in spiritual station...BTW you never addressed any of my queries regarding 144,000 or 124,000 prophets and how Allah only chose to mention a handful by name in the Qurʼān...yet we have entire chapters entitled 'Maryam' and 'Luqman' (i.e. chapters named after non-prophets) and examples of high spiritual rank or degree that these non-prophets achieved...i.e. "O Mary, Allah has chosen you, and purified you; He has chosen you above all the women of creation." etc....I've been waiting for an answer from you for months now regarding this

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Abbasid Mahdism

Oh you mean another Shi'i group believes in the concept of an Occulted Imam?? And you believe this helps your cause or proves your point how exactly?? Firstly, I never read anywhere that the Abbasids were the ones who originally coined the concept of a Hidden Imam who would one day emerge and topple despotic rulers...I have read (however) that the Bani Abbas attacked the moral legitimacy of the Umayyad ruling establishment and used the Tragedy of Karbala as a type of rallying cry to harness Alid and Hashemite support in their favor...the Orientalist scholars acknowledge that the concept of 'Mahdi' can be traced back to around 680 CE...Al-Mukhtar (r) proclaimed Muhammad al-Hanafiyyah (a) as the Mahdi and said that he had not died but was (rather) hidden in Mount Radwa and would return some day to rid the world of injustice...They (Orientalists) say he (Mukhtar) was the first to introduce the doctrines of Occultation (Ghaybah) and Return (Raj'a)...Also, Ibn Kathir gave a detailed description of a futuristic apocalyptic account about the coming of Mahdi, Jesus and Dajjal during the turbulent End Times

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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(Salam)

Taken from https://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7403:superiority-of-ali-ibn-abi-talib-a-s-over-all-others&catid=267&Itemid=338

"Some proofs of his superiority from authentic Sunni sources:
Ahmad ibn Hanbal said:"There is no companion concerning who are reported as many merits as Ali ibn Abi Talib ((عليه السلام))"
-He was the first male Muslim.
The famous Historian, Tabari wrote: “The first three to offer prayers were Muhammad (P.B.U.H&H.P), Khadija (S.A) and Ali ((عليه السلام)).”
[History of Tabari, v2, p65]
Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H&H.P) said to his daughter Fatimah (S.A):   "I gave you in marriage to the best in my Ummah, the most knowledgeable amongst them, the best in patience amongst them, and the first Muslim amongst them."
[Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p398]
****************************
-He was chosen as the successor of the Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P) and the executor of his will, right from the beginning of the prophetic mission.
At the beginning of his mission, the Prophet of Islam said in a speech: (In the Dawat e Zul Asheerah at the residence of Hazrat Abu Talib ((عليه السلام))
“Who amongst you shall support me in this matter and be my brother, the executor of my will (wasi), and my successor (caliph)?"
All the listeners, with the exception of Ali, who was the youngest among them, kept silent.
Ali ((عليه السلام)) responded by saying:  "I will be your helper, O' prophet of God."
The Messenger of Allah (P.B.U.H&H.P) then put his hand on the back of Ali’s neck and said: "This is my brother, executor of my will and successor; therefore, listen to him and obey him."
Those present laughed and kept saying to Abu Talib: "Allah has commanded you to listen to your son, and to obey him!"
[A sahih hadith reported in numerous sunni books including:  The History of Tabari, The History of ibn Asakir, Al-Durr al-Manthoor by suyuti, Al-Mukhtasar, by Abul Fida]
****************************
-He did not neglect the Prophet of Islam during his time of need.
The Great companion of the Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P), Ibn Abbas said:
"Ali has four distinctions which no one shares with him: He was the first male who prayed with the Messenger of God. He was the bearer of his banner in every battle and … he was the one who stayed with him at the Battle on the day of Al-Mihras (the Battle of Uhud), and he is the one who washed his blessed body and laid him in his tomb."
[Al-Hakim, in his Al-Mustadrak, Part 3, p.111]
Questions: Why didn’t Abu Bakr and Umar attend the funeral of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H&H.P)? And… Why did they run away during the battle of Uhud, leaving Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) to defend the Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P)?
****************************
-He Resembled the Prophets (P.B.U.H&H.P).
 The Messenger of Allah (P.B.U.H&H.P) said:   "He who wants to see Noah ((عليه السلام)) in his determination, Adam ((عليه السلام)) in his knowledge, Abraham ((عليه السلام)) in his clemency, Moses ((عليه السلام)) in his intelligence and Jesus ((عليه السلام)) in his religious devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib ((عليه السلام))."
[Sunan al-Bayhaqi, Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Tafsir al-Kabir by Fakhruddin al-Razi and others]
****************************
-He was the representative of the Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P).
Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H&H.P) said: "Ali is from me and I am from Ali and no one represents me except Ali."
[Sunan ibn Majah, Hadith No.119]
The Messenger of Allah (P.B.U.H&H.P) said to Ali ((عليه السلام)): "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron to   Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"
[Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Hadith Number 700. Sahih muslim Book 031, hadith Number 5913]
****************************
-He was the most knowledgeable person after the Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P).
The Messenger of Allah said:  "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate; therefore, whoever wishes to attain knowledge, let him enter through the gate."
[Reported in hundreds of Sunni books. Classified authentic by numerous Sunni scholars such as Imam Hajr al Asqalani, imam Tabari, Imam Suyuti and Imamal Hakim]
On many occasions, Umar said about Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)): "If there was no Ali, Umar would have perished!"
[Fadha'il al-Sahaba by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p647, Hadith 1100. Al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr al qurtubi, v3, p39; Manaqib, by al-Khawarizmi, p48.Al-Riyadh al Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2, p194; .Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p17]
The Quran says:
...Is He then who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?” [10:35]
****************************
-He is the leader of the faithful.
Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H&H.P) said: "Ali is from me and I am from Ali and he is the guardian of every believer after me"
[Sunan Tirmidhi, volume 2, page 298. Mustadrak al-Hakim, volume 3, page 111. Sawaiq al-Muhriqa, page 122, published in Egypt]
****************************
-He is the criterion between truth and falsehood.
The Prophet (P.B.U.H&H.P) Said: "Shortly after me, discord and hatred will arise among you, when such a situation arises, go and search out Ali because he can separate the truth from falsehood"
[Kanzul Ummal, volume 2 page 612]
****************************
-His name is written on the Gate of Paradise.
"It is written on the gate of Paradise: `There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and Ali is the Brother of the Messenger of Allah'."
[Al-Awsat by Maharani. Al-Muttafaq wal-Muftaraq By al-Khatib. Kanz al-Ummal. Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal page 35, Vol. 5. Ibn `Asakir page 46]

Ahmed ibn Hanbal said: "Ali had many enemies who searched hard to find a fault attributable to him, but they could not, so they brought a man whom Ali had fought and battled with, and praised him because of their hatred towards Ali.”
They could not find flaws in Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) so THEY fabricated traditions in favor of his enemies.
These are just a small sample of the merits of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام))."

Wassalam.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/4/2021 at 12:04 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Zaydiyyah seeking the acceptance of the Sunni majority 

I don't know which Zaydis you are talking about but the Zaydis in Yemen are very Shi'a and don't care about the "acceptance" of the Sunnis.  The Zaydi-Sunni dynamic in Yemen is different from the rest of the Muslim world.  The Zaydis dominate the political structure of the country while the Sunnis feel marginalized.

Edited by Al-Zaidi
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