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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imams Superior To Prophets!

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9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Sure, but using your flawed logic of only naming the one with the higher status one would come to a faulty conclusion. 

I never said to only name one. Where did I say that? No doubt, the Prophets of Allah were the best examples for mankind, apart from Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the 12 Imams.

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21 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Allah said to say bihaqqi Ali:

Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) said:

When Adam ((عليه السلام).) failed to cling to the preferable and left it, he confessed to his sin and sought pardon saying: O Lord! Kindly accept my repentance and excuse and grant me my earlier rank and raise my status, because the effect of this fault of mine has appeared in all parts of my body.

At that time, Almighty said: O Adam! Do you not remember that I had called upon you that when you face calamities and troubles, you must give the mediation of Muhammad and his progeny ((عليه السلام).) and then you should pray to Me?

Adam said: Indeed O Lord! I do recall it.

Allah said: Seek the mediation, especially of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) and ask from Me. I will answer your request and grant you more than your want.

Adam submitted: O Allah! O my Lord! Their rank, in my sight, has reached so much that, through their mediation, my mistake has been pardoned by You, though You had commanded the angels to prostrate before me and You made Your Paradise available to me and You married Your slave-girl, Hawwa, with me and You made angels my servants (how much beneficent You are)!

In reply, Almighty said: O Adam! I had asked angels to prostrate only because you were the container of these Five Precious Personalities and had you, before your mistake, requested me, making them mediators to protect you from mistake and even to make you aware of the delusion of Iblees for being protected from his evil, I would have accepted that request also. But whatever becomes known to Me earlier comes true. Now you may pray to Me making them your Waseelah. I will certainly accept it.

Then Adam ((عليه السلام).) prayed like this: O Allah, I give You the Waseelah of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) and of his Purified Progeny, I repeat, of the mediation of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) and of their progeny ((عليه السلام).), please forgive my mistake and make me regain the rank You have so graciously granted to me and grant me more through Your generosity.

In reply the Almighty Allah said: O Adam! I have accepted your prayer and am pleased with you and I have turned My gifts and grants towards you and re-established you to your earlier rank, which I had granted you by My grace and now I have given full benefits of My unfathomable bounties.

Source: Tafseer of Imam Hasan Askari(عليه السلام), Sura-e-Baqara, Verse 35-39

 

The problem is that it is coming from Tafsir Imam Hasan Al Askari (عليه السلام) which is deemed to be fail whose authenticity is a huge cause of concern raused by many scholars.

22 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Then I will know if I should say 'Bihaqqil Ibrahim' or 'Bihaqqil Ali,' which will (inshallah) lead to my Du'a being answered.

This is a flawed reasoning. You can make tawassul of Hazrat Ibrahim as well and your Dua will be answered. 

On 7/21/2021 at 6:41 AM, Zane Ibrahim said:

The Imams teach the Sunnah of the greatest Prophet, Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Hajj is from the Sunnah of Hazrat Ibrahim. Dua e Kumail is Dua e Khidhr. Fastin and Salaat all were prqctuced by the prophets as well. So, Imams (عليه السلام) have taught us the Sunnah of all the prophets, not just Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

22 hours ago, Cool said:

The point for you to understand is that the Imams of Ahlul Bayt are the bearers of the minniyat of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This is the key difference, secondly the scope of Prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he is the Imam & Mowla of every prophet, hence when Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said من كنت مولا، don't just limit the scope to the people attended the ghadeer & afterwards. I think it includes all the previous generations too. If anyone of them would be alive, he would have to accept Ali (عليه السلام) as his mowla. And we will see this at the end times, who will be the Mowla of Jesus (عليه السلام)? Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) or you think Isa (عليه السلام) will be the Mowla of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام)? 

Imams of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are immaculate figures. They are masoomeen, have got the minniyat of Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

But Imamate in general history was even before the Imams. The havaris of Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام) were Imams afterchim to establish the laws of Islam. The 12 chiefs of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) were also like that.

We can all agree that none of them was above the prophets. We can also agree that many many Prophets themselves were Imams. 

Now, is still Imamate above Nabuwwat? No.

Is Nabuwwat above Imamate? No.

They are separate from each other with a separate set of responsibility. When religious message had to be propagated, Allah sent prophets and when that had to be established on earth as rule and practice, he sent Imams. 

All were close ones to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Much closer than us. So, there is no point comparing stars with stars. 

I see the Imamate of Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) as an indication that he is Imam (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) of the time and everyone in that hour has to be standing behind him. I would dare to say that even if Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) came along with Jesus (عليه السلام), he would pray behind Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). Reasons are clear. He is Imam of the age. When Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was Imam, Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) used to pray behind him.

What will you say about Raj'a? Will Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) or Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who will come in the period of Imam's reappearance lead the prayers or will they stand behind Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف).

Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام) will surely come back but neither as a Prophet of time, nor as an Imam. Just as a hujjat (proof) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will send to make the evidence of haqq crystal clear without any doubt. 

You actually know all the answers. But the point is that this discussion will lead us no where. If we follow religion in practice, we are standing behind all of them and while we love, follow and propagate the character of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), we should avoid such comparisons.

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22 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Then simply, human beings are not better than angels. The thing is that they CAN be better than angels. Animals have desire. Angels have intellect. Humans have desire and intellect. They can either use it for good or bad. If they use it for good and reach the status of Imamate, they are better than angels because they chose to do so, whereas angels have no choice.

This assertion is again problematic:

(Excerpts from the tafsir Al Mizan)

The problem with this view is that if it were so, then the obedience of angels would not be any virtue to begin with, because they do not have the option to disobey. They are not equally disposed to obedience and disobedience. In that case the angels would not have any essential merit or value in and of themselves, because according to this view there is no merit except for obedience when disobedience is also possible. In fact, we cannot even refer to the angels as “obedient” except metaphorically, because their very essence necessitates obedience. If that were the case, then there would be no grounds for their proximity to their Lord and their acts would be devoid of any value.
This is while God has assigned them a position of nearness and proximity; He has settled them in Sacred Heavens and Stations of Intimacy; and He has appointed them to be keepers of His secrets, carriers of His commands and intermediaries between Him and His creatures. Is all this based on an arbitrary decision by Him without any qualification or worth on the part of the angels? Indeed God has praised them with the loſtiest of praises where He says: Nay! they are honored servants.
They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act (21:26-27), and: They do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded (66:6). He has described them as being honored [in verse 21:26] unconditioned by any condition, and has praised them for their obedience and their refusal to disobey [in verse 66:6].
He has also praised their worship and subservience to their Lord where He says: And for fear of Him they tremble (21:28); But if they are proud, yet those with your Lord glorify Him during the night and the day, and they are not tired (41:38); Surely those who are with your Lord are not too proud to serve Him, and they declare His glory and throw themselves down in humility before Him (7:206). Thus, He orders His Prophet to remember and worship Him as they [the angels] do. The fact is that having the option to either act or refrain is not a criterion of merit and virtue in obedience. This option is only indicative of moral value inasmuch as it reveals the good will and pure intention of the person. The evidence for this is that the obedience of one who has an impure spirit and an evil character is of no worth no matter how much effort he puts into purifying and perfecting his action. For example consider the acts of obedience by a hypocrite or one in whose heart is disease: Their acts are void to God and their good deeds are effaced from their book of deeds. Therefore, what gives virtue, excellence and value to the obedience of an actor is the purity of his soul, the fairness of his substance, and the sincerity in his servitude—which then manifest in refraining to disobey, choosing obey, and bearing its hardship.
Given the above criterion, we should add that the essence of the angels is rooted in purity and nobility, and their actions are solely governed by humility in servitude and sincerity of intention. In these aspects they surpass the essence of mankind which is tainted by desires and mixed with anger and lust.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Zainuu said:

But the point is that this discussion will lead us no where

I can agree with you here. This is a matter of personal understanding. When I am discussing a creation of God known as Insaan, the personalities in my mind are the perfect human beings (insaan e kamil) and their anwar e muqaddassah. The ones we know as proofs of Allah on His creation. And the creation includes all things, including angels. 

The ahadith of Aimmah & Quran Al-Hakim is our guide obviously. So I am just quoting one hadith:

ابْنُ بَابَوَيْهِ:عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْوَهَّابِ،عَنْ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَحْمَدَ الْقَوَارِيرِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ،عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ تَوْبَةَ،عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْبُكَائِيِّ،عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ الْأَعْمَشِ،عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ،قَالَ: كُنَّا جُلُوساً عِنْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ(صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ)إِذْ أَقْبَلَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ،فَقَالَ:يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ،أَخْبِرْنِي عَنْ قَوْلِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ لِإِبْلِيسَ: أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنْتَ مِنَ الْعٰالِينَ مَنْ هُمْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ هُمْ أَعْلَى مِنَ الْمَلاَئِكَةِ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ؟ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ(صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ):«أَنَا وَ عَلِيٌ وَ فَاطِمَةُ وَ الْحَسَنُ وَ الْحُسَيْنُ،كُنَّا فِي سُرَادِقِ الْعَرْشِ نُسَبِّحُ اللَّهَ، فَسَبَّحَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ بِتَسْبِيحِنَا قَبْلَ أَنْ يَخْلُقَ اللَّهُ آدَمَ(عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ)بِأَلْفَيْ عَامٍ.فَلَمَّا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ آدَمَ(عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ)،أَمَرَ الْمَلاَئِكَةَ أَنْ يَسْجُدُوا لَهُ،وَ لَم يُؤْمَرُوا بِالسُّجُودِ إِلاَّ لِأَجْلِنَا،فَسَجَدَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ أَجْمَعُونَ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ فَإِنَّهُ أَبَى أَنْ يَسْجُدَ.فَقَالَ اللَّهُ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى: يٰا إِبْلِيسُ مٰا مَنَعَكَ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ لِمٰا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنْتَ مِنَ الْعٰالِينَ قَالَ:مَنْ هَؤُلاَءِ الْخَمْسَةُ الْمَكْتُوبَةُ أَسْمَاؤُهُمْ فِي سُرَادِقِ الْعَرْشِ،فَنَحْنُ بَابُ اللَّهِ الَّذِي يُؤْتَى مِنْهُ،بِنَا يَهْتَدِي الْمُهْتَدُونَ،فَمَنْ أَحَبَّنَا أَحَبَّهُ اللَّهُ،وَ أَسْكَنَهُ جَنَّتَهُ،وَ مَنْ أَبْغَضَنَا أَبْغَضَهُ اللَّهُ،وَ أَسْكَنَهُ نَارَهُ،وَ لاَ يُحِبُّنَا إِلاَّ مَنْ طَابَ مَوْلِدُهُ

رَوَى هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ ابْنُ بَابَوَيْهِ فِي كِتَابِ(بِشَارَاتِ الشِّيعَةِ):بِإِسْنَادِهِ،عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ،عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ(صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ)،الْحَدِيثَ بِعَيْنِهِ

http://ar.lib.eshia.ir/71664/4/684

And since you are quoting Ayatullah Tabatabai (a.r), I suggest you to read his tafseer Al-Mizan and see the tafseer of ام كنت من العالين

Edited by Cool
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Given the above criterion, we should add that the essence of the angels is rooted in purity and nobility, and their actions are solely governed by humility in servitude and sincerity of intention. In these aspects they surpass the essence of mankind which is tainted by desires and mixed with anger and lust.

Whichs one is greater, the rightous ones who were honered and created by God Hands or the ones who God create by saying Be and It Is?

The dearest of the creations of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and in our supplication we always say and no angel brought nigh or prophet sent out may parallel him in Thy sight.

I would say this, these attributes that Angels have will all be perfected for humans too, when Human ask God to perfect their light. Thus human beings will suppress the attributes of lust and anger.

Edited by Abu Nur
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36 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Whichs one is greater, the rightous ones who were honered and created by God Hands or the ones who God create by saying Be and It Is?

 

Salaam what do you mean by God's hands ?

 

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17 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Said He: “O Iblis! What has kept thee from prostrating thyself before that [being] which I have created with My hands? Suad 38:75

 

I doubt this means Allah has hands? We can’t define Him because then we would limit Him and He is limitless. 

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12 minutes ago, User 313 said:

I doubt this means Allah has hands? We can’t define Him because then we would limit Him and He is limitless. 

It is honoring the Bani Adam. I believe this have the relation that Humans have such an attributes that will take them higher in status than Jinns and Angels, thus it could mean that the sajda refers to it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Wa Aleikum Salaam,

Said He: “O Iblis! What has kept thee from prostrating thyself before that [being] which I have created with My hands? Suad 38:75

 

Thanks do you interpret hands in a literal sense ( negating likness) or a metaphorical interpretation such as power ?

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

The problem is that it is coming from Tafsir Imam Hasan Al Askari (عليه السلام) which is deemed to be fail whose authenticity is a huge cause of concern raused by many scholars.

Really? Can you give me that opinion of a scholar like Ayatollah Sistani or Ayatollah Khamenei?

 

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

This is a flawed reasoning. You can make tawassul of Hazrat Ibrahim as well and your Dua will be answered. 

I can, but Ibrahim isn’t ‘Bab al-Hawa’ij’

 

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Imams (عليه السلام) have taught us the Sunnah of all the prophets, not just Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Okay. So?

 

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

even if Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) came along with Jesus (عليه السلام), he would pray behind Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). Reasons are clear. He is Imam of the age. When Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was Imam, Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) used to pray behind him.

Umm…no. Only the best man leads the prayers. You said that Ali lead Hassan and Hussain, but Ali was better then Hassan and Hussain. But Rasulullah is better than Imam Mahdi.

 

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

What will you say about Raj'a? Will Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) or Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who will come in the period of Imam's reappearance lead the prayers or will they stand behind Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف).

Rasulullah does not mention this, he does not say that anyone else from Ahlulbayt will pray behind al Mahdi.

 

10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Nay! they are honored servants.
They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act (21:26-27), and: They do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded (66:6). He has described them as being honored [in verse 21:26] unconditioned by any condition, and has praised them for their obedience and their refusal to disobey [in verse 66:6].
He has also praised their worship and subservience to their Lord where He says: And for fear of Him they tremble (21:28); But if they are proud, yet those with your Lord glorify Him during the night and the day, and they are not tired (41:38); Surely those who are with your Lord are not too proud to serve Him, and they declare His glory and throw themselves down in humility before Him (7:206).

All this just a proves that Angels do not disobey Allah.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Thanks do you interpret hands in a literal sense ( negating likness) or a metaphorical interpretation such as power ?

I take the shia position that hands are not interpreted as literally. If it is literal then the hands are defined as form/shape and God does not have any shape.

Edited by Abu Nur
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12 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I take the shia position that hands are not interpreted as literally. If it is literal then the hands are defined as form/shape and God does not have any shape.

Ok so when you quoted the verse. What is meant by hands ?

And how does this relate to your statement :

"Whichs one is greater, the rightous ones who were honered and created by God Hands or the ones who God create by saying Be and It Is?"

 

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4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

would say this, these attributes that Angels have will all be perfected for humans too, when Human ask God to perfect their light. Thus human beings will suppress the attributes of lust and anger.

My argument doesn't contradict that.

Humans by essence are not above Angels. Humans by potential can exceed the level of angels. Now, as for the second statement. You see that it is not an absolute superiority.

1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Really? Can you give me that opinion of a scholar like Ayatollah Sistani or Ayatollah Khamenei?

I am not a hadith expert. Brother @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi once mentioned this in a discussion that Ayatullah Khamenei considers Tafsir Imam Hasan Askari as unauthentic.

1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

can, but Ibrahim isn’t ‘Bab al-Hawa’ij’

Firstly, it is 'Hazrat Ibrahim (AS)' and secondly, he is Khalilullah and salutations were sent on him and his aal just like we send salutations on the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny. All this is enough to be a wasilah.

1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Umm…no. Only the best man leads the prayers. You said that Ali lead Hassan and Hussain, but Ali was better then Hassan and Hussain. But Rasulullah is better than Imam Mahdi.

So, now you are even providing ranks within Imams. Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the best but there is no proof whatsoever about the rankings among Imams.

They all were created from the same light (Noor e Muhammadi).

1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Rasulullah does not mention this, he does not say that anyone else from Ahlulbayt will pray behind al Mahdi.

Belief of Raj'ah is mentioned in detail. Don't know who all will come back to life but there is a possibility of Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) (after or during reappearance).

 

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3 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Ok so when you quoted the verse. What is meant by hands ?

And how does this relate to your statement :

"Whichs one is greater, the rightous ones who were honered and created by God Hands or the ones who God create by saying Be and It Is?"

 

It is not relevant in this matter, what is relevant is that God emphasis the creation of Humans by calling He Himself created by His own Hands and no other means. This is the same way how He for example honors the Ka'bah by saying His House.

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Humans by essence are not above Angels. Humans by potential can exceed the level of angels. Now, as for the second statement. You see that it is not an absolute superiority.

It is bit confusing. Humans have potentials to exceed the angels, thus in their essence they have such an potentials and actualizing them they become higher than angels.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

It is not relevant in this matter, what is relevant is that God emphasis the creation of Humans by calling He Himself created by His own Hands and no other means. This is the same way how He for example honors the Ka'bah by saying His House.

Then it's a very general interpretation and in my opinion not enough by itself to say Prophets are higher than angels. Although I understand where you are coming from also it would be limited to Prophet Adam and has no bearing on Imams.

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5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

My argument doesn't contradict that.

Humans by essence are not above Angels. Humans by potential can exceed the level of angels.

Have you seen the Tafseer Al-Mizan for 38:75 أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ ?

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6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi once mentioned this in a discussion that Ayatullah Khamenei considers Tafsir Imam Hasan Askari as unauthentic

Okay. I’ll take a look inshAllah.

 

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Firstly, it is 'Hazrat Ibrahim (AS)' and secondly, he is Khalilullah and salutations were sent on him and his aal just like we send salutations on the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his progeny. All this is enough to be a wasilah.

I don’t deny that Nabi Ibrahim (عليه السلام) is a Wasilah, but all I’m saying is that the Ahlul Bayt are more powerful. Why else do we use them and not the Prophets in Du’a Tawassul?

 

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

there is no proof whatsoever about the rankings among Imams.

It was said to Ali bin Al Hussein (عليه السلام), who was at the peak of worship: “Where is you worship in comparison with the worship of your grandfather (Ali)?” He said: my worship in comparison with my grandfather’s worship is like the worship of my grandfather to the worship of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

 

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Belief of Raj'ah is mentioned in detail. Don't know who all will come back to life but there is a possibility of Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) (after or during reappearance).

I don’t deny that the Raj’ah will happen, but I haven’t come across any hadiths in which Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says that he himself will pray behind Imam Mahdi a.f.

 

40 minutes ago, Cool said:

Have you seen the Tafseer Al-Mizan for 38:75 أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ ?

Can you provide a link for us inshAllah?

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On 7/20/2021 at 9:56 PM, Zane Ibrahim said:

You know who made Jibraeel reach his position?

Go to 6:00

 

I had some spare time on hand, so I listened to this talk. At round 6.45 minutes he talks about when Hazrat Jibreel (peace be upon him) visits the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) and Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was present there too.  The Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) noticing that Hazrat Jibreel (peace be upon him) was paying utmost respect to Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) asks Hazrat Jibreel: “What is your reason for paying your utmost respect to Ali ibn Talib?”

Hazrat Jibreel: “I am giving him utmost respect that a student should give to a teacher!”

Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) (very surprised) asks: “Ali ibn Talib was your teacher??!”

Hazrat Jibreel: “When Allah Subhanu ta’ala created me, I was placed in front of the Arsh and then Allah Subhanu ta’ala asked me, “Who I am and who are you”? “I was astounded by the Noor of Arsh of Allah Subhanu ta’ala, I did not what to answer to Allah Subhanu ta’ala, I heard a voice behind me, “Say, Anta Rabbul Jaleel aw Ana Abduka Dhaleel. Allah Subhanu ta’ala, loved my answer so much that He made me in charge of delivering the Wahi to every Prophet from Aadam to Khatam. I turned around to see who is this person who has given me the answer and I turn around and see, Ali ibn Talib peace be upon him”

Well, you can all guess, that was the end for me.  With all my apologies such emotional talks are full of GHULUW.  Very pleasing for the ears of gullible crowd. Warms up the heart and give sort of adrenaline rush and excitement.

Few points come to my mind:

1) The Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) was clearly very surprised to learn that Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was the teacher of Jibreel (peace be upon him). The speaker emphasised on this too.
2) Allah Almighty asked the question without having taught him before.
3) Where is the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) in this?  It is very subtle, but between the lines, Hazrat Ali ibn Talib is ‘ahead’ of him
4) Surely, All-knowing, Allah Almighty cannot be unaware of Hazrat Ali ibn Talib hiding behind the Arsh of Allah Almighty? 
5) In real exams if someone helps you with the answer, do you pass the test? and then get rewarded with top-end job? Amazing!
6) And how big or in this case how small was the Arsh?

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52 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

I had some spare time on hand, so I listened to this talk. At round 6.45 minutes he talks about when Hazrat Jibreel (peace be upon him) visits the Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) and Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was present there too.  The Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) noticing that Hazrat Jibreel (peace be upon him) was paying utmost respect to Hazrat Ali ibn Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) asks Hazrat Jibreel: “What is your reason for paying your utmost respect to Ali ibn Talib?”

Hazrat Jibreel: “I am giving him utmost respect that a student should give to a teacher!”

Blessed Prophet (peace be upon him) (very surprised) asks: “Ali ibn Talib was your teacher??!”

Hazrat Jibreel: “When Allah Subhanu ta’ala created me, I was placed in front of the Arsh and then Allah Subhanu ta’ala asked me, “Who I am and who are you”? “I was astounded by the Noor of Arsh of Allah Subhanu ta’ala, I did not what to answer to Allah Subhanu ta’ala, I heard a voice behind me, “Say, Anta Rabbul Jaleel aw Ana Abduka Dhaleel. Allah Subhanu ta’ala, loved my answer so much that He made me in charge of delivering the Wahi to every Prophet from Aadam to Khatam. I turned around to see who is this person who has given me the answer and I turn around and see, Ali ibn Talib peace be upon him”

 

It's shocking but these preachers get platforms around the world every year. And are paid to narrate these kind of "hadith".  Allahamdullilah not all Shia (including 12er)believe such things.

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^ Assalama alaykum brother – I am aware of that brother. I can very accurately guess which Shia brothers/sisters here must be cringing at the speaker in the video.  The speaker seemed to be educated and spoke fairly good English.  If the first 8 minutes with this kind of ghuluw I don’t know what else is there.

In exactly a week’s time it will my first anniversary on Shiachat.  With experience I have classified Shia posters here into 1) well-balanced and knowledgeable 2) a little bit off balance and knowledgeable 3) off balance with ghuluw added 4) Passionate and like to argue endlessly 5) Ghuluw and anything everything goes

Guess what’s what makes the world go around :)

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15 hours ago, Cool said:

Have you seen the Tafseer Al-Mizan for 38:75 أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ ?

 

14 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Can you provide a link for us inshAllah?

I was unable to find the tafsir in Al Mizan for 38:75.

But a Tafsir of same is present in Enlightening verses. Although, not detailed but still quite clear:

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-15/section-5-great-tiding#surah-sad-verses-75-78

But again, what's the point? Do I disagree with that? 

Here is the link above and the commentaries says that the 'exalted ones' in question are the beings superior to Angels. That doesn't contradict Angels proximity to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Nor it contradicts that Angels are 'superior by essence' to human beings. Because the exalted ones are not humans but the pure ones, the chosen ones.

They came on earth as Insan e Kamil but there essence is not insaan e Kamil.

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21 hours ago, Zainuu said:

My argument doesn't contradict that.

Humans by essence are not above Angels. Humans by potential can exceed the level of angels.

 

31 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

They came on earth as Insan e Kamil but there essence is not insaan e Kamil.

31 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

what's the point? Do I disagree with that? 

Brother! It appears that you need to fix this logical problem. 

a) Angels are by essence above human beings but humans can excel them because the have the "potential". 

b) Ahlul Kisa (عليه السلام) came to Earth as naqis (na'udobillah) and become kamil here. 

These two are the big logical fallacies you need to work on. It appears that you perhaps holds a different understanding of the verse of purification.

God send naqis people to guide humanity? God has taken the covenant from all the Prophets to help & believe in the naqis one which  He will send later? 

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّينَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُصَدِّقٌ لِمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنْصُرُنَّهُ ۚ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَىٰ ذَٰلِكُمْ إِصْرِي ۖ قَالُوا أَقْرَرْنَا ۚ قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوا وَأَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ {81}

[Shakir 3:81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.

And God send Prophet first for teaching the people book and the wisdom & for purifying them, but He purify him afterwards? Teach him the book & the wisdom afterwards? 

هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِنْ كَانُوا مِنْ قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ {2}

[Shakir 62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

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5 hours ago, Cool said:

God send naqis people to guide humanity? God has taken the covenant from all the Prophets to help & believe in the naqis one which  He will send later? 

This is an absolutely wrong assumption. No where at any place I said that Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are Naqis. 

I said that the essence of the chosen ones (Panjetan) is not 'Insaan'. 

According to one hadith when Hazrat Habib asked Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that, "What you were before the creation of Universe?"

He said,"We were the 'form of light' (Paiker e Noor), who revolved around Arsh e Ilaahi."

So, brother I don't know from where you brought that.

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3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

So, brother I don't know from where you brought that.

If this is the case, then excuse me please. 

I got this impression from your these words:

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

They came on earth as Insan e Kamil but there essence is not insaan e Kamil.

One more thing we need to clear. As you are discussing the "essence" of angels & insaan, what do you think is the essence of "insaan" and "angels"? 

I need to understand why, in your point of view, angels are by essence, superior to insaan?

فِطْرَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا

30:30

Do we know whether God has created the angels according to "His fitrah"?

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2 minutes ago, Cool said:

what do you think is the essence of "insaan" and "angels"? 

I need to understand why, in your point of view, angels are by essence, superior to insaan?

The sole reason of every creation is obedience (Ibadat)

And the obedience of Angels towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by essence is always above the obedience of human being. We humans have a mix and mash of a lot of feelings, expressions etc. 

So, by essence Angels only possess the capability to obey while Human beings obey as well as disobey and are created like that.

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8 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

So, by essence Angels only possess the capability to obey

So this means, by essence, they are lacking something. Something important which humans possess and angels don't. 

This is a negative aspect. Why humans are superior to animals? Because animals are lacking something which human possess. 

11 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

And the obedience of Angels towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by essence is always above the obedience of human being.

And how can you even say that? 

 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

This is a negative aspect.

They lack the ability to disobey. Is it something inferior?

I don't think so. All are created to obey. 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

And how can you even say that? 

By design. Human beings disobey and there obedience is also many times mixed up with different levels of desires and objectives etc.

This is something rationally acceptable.

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6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

by essence Angels only possess the capability to obey while Human beings obey as well as disobey and are created like that.

I'm not denying that, and I don't say that humans are above Angels. I think we agree on this that humans have the potential to be superior to Angels, because where Angels were created to worship, humans chose to worship.

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9 hours ago, Zainuu said:

They lack the ability to disobey. Is it something inferior?

The lack of freewill (imma shakiran wa imma kafoora) is something inferior. The lack of the ability to have sexual relationship & produce offspring is something inferior. 

So there are no responsibilities of parents, offspring/spouse on them. Their sole responsibilities just related to worship God & obeying His commands. 

No commands of God:

فلا تقل لهما اف و لا تنهر هما

انما اموالوكم و اولادكم فتنه

No wives hence no responsibilities. No need to search for halal & taiyyeb rizq. These all are the acts of worship which humans can do but angels don't.

You can imagine their beings are just doing a very limited acts of worship as compared to humans.

9 hours ago, Zainuu said:

By design. Human beings disobey and there obedience is also many times mixed up with different levels of desires and objectives etc

It is not necessary that every human being must disobey. The one who disobeys, disobeys either willfully or either my forgetting or either by ignorance. 

Anyway, I am not going to include humanity as a whole here. There are very limited people who actually obey God in true letter & spirit. And my scope of discussions is limited only to those who obeys God's commands.

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Posted (edited)

Salam,

This is my understanding.

Whosoever among humans that can guide entire humanity from the beginning to ending in order to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى),  they are most superior. Those who preventing the act of worshipping are most inferior.

Can Angels guide?

Who are those who guide the mankind to worshipping Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with the biggest coverage? They are superior.

Wallahualam 

 

Edited by layman
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18 hours ago, Cool said:

The lack of freewill (imma shakiran wa imma kafoora) is something inferior. The lack of the ability to have sexual relationship & produce offspring is something inferior. 

So there are no responsibilities of parents, offspring/spouse on them. Their sole responsibilities just related to worship God & obeying His commands. 

No commands of God:

فلا تقل لهما اف و لا تنهر هما

انما اموالوكم و اولادكم فتنه

No wives hence no responsibilities. No need to search for halal & taiyyeb rizq. These all are the acts of worship which humans can do but angels don't.

You can imagine their beings are just doing a very limited acts of worship as compared to humans.

Nothing in this indicates some kind of inferiority 'by essence'.

As I already said above, only obedience of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is ibadat. All of what you included if under bounds of obedience, then it is ibadah. Else, it is not.

18 hours ago, Cool said:

Their sole responsibilities just related to worship God & obeying His commands. 

This is exactly what is the purpose of every creation, even our creation.

So, how much our actions match the purpose? How do you define the essence of someone? 

 

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17 hours ago, layman said:

Who are those who guide the mankind to worshipping Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with the biggest coverage? They are superior.

I am not belittling anyone brother. But it is only and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who guides as is clear from a Hadith of Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Part of this system of guidance are prophets, Imamas, Angels and normal human beings.

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