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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imams Superior To Prophets!

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Keep in mind that Imam Mahdi (Mahdi means 'rightly guided one'...'rightly guided' how? he studied his entire life at Harvard or Yale?) is not a prophet but he will accomplish what no prophet could...namely, transformation of the entire world...many prophets were sent to extremely small communities with tiny population densities and were not able to persuade anyone to the right path...many of these prophets were killed by their own peoples...Zaydi brethren have to acknowledge that following Imam az-Zaman is wajib and for he is guided by Allah...there's no way around this...he's not elected by a committee of equals...this is even acknowledged by Sunnis...in other words, there is no "this is your opinion" and "this is my opinion"...Hujjat-Allah al-Mahdi is guided by Divine Command...period, full-stop, end of sentence.

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You are 100% correct. May Allah hasten the reappearance of Imam Al Mahdi.

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@Eddie Mecca Inshallah I'll give a reply but for now can you please go around saying Imam Ibrahim and Imam Muhammed. You got to acknowledge them by their higher rank.

 

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On 7/16/2021 at 1:32 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

@Zaidism, @Ali bin Husseinwhat say ye?

Before brother Ali bin Hussein responds, can your answer the following.

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقً

waman yuṭiʿi l-laha wal-rasūla fa-ulāika maʿa alladhīna anʿama l-lahu ʿalayhim mina l-nabiyīna wal-ṣidīqīna wal-shuhadāi wal-ṣāliḥīna waḥasuna ulāika rafīqa

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad), they will be with those upon whom Allah has bestowed (Allah’s) blessings - the prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous. How excellent these companions will be! - The Blessed Qur’an Surah an Nisa’a ayah 69

If you refer to the above blessed ayah of the Qur’an and ponder a bit.  You will not fail to notice that Allah Almighty has attributed the HIGHEST STATUS to the PROPHETHOOD and then to the TRUTHFUL and then to the MARTYRS and then to the RIGHTFUL

Where are you going to fit in the Imamate? There is no room ahead of Prophethood!

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56 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Before brother Ali bin Hussein responds, can your answer the following.

وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقً

waman yuṭiʿi l-laha wal-rasūla fa-ulāika maʿa alladhīna anʿama l-lahu ʿalayhim mina l-nabiyīna wal-ṣidīqīna wal-shuhadāi wal-ṣāliḥīna waḥasuna ulāika rafīqa

And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad), they will be with those upon whom Allah has bestowed (Allah’s) blessings - the prophets, the truthful, the martyrs, and the righteous. How excellent these companions will be! - The Blessed Qur’an Surah an Nisa’a ayah 69

If you refer to the above blessed ayah of the Qur’an and ponder a bit.  You will not fail to notice that Allah Almighty has attributed the HIGHEST STATUS to the PROPHETHOOD and then to the TRUTHFUL and then to the MARTYRS and then to the RIGHTFUL

Where are you going to fit in the Imamate? There is no room ahead of Prophethood!

Assalamualaikum.

In Surah Baqarah 2:124, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says to Nabi Ibrahim (عليه السلام): 

"I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." 

How could Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make NABI Ibrahim an IMAM, after he's already a nabi? This means that first Ibrahim got Nabuwat, then Risalat, and THEN Imamat.

The Ayat that you quoted, you translated incorrectly. This translation is by Saheeh International, a Sunni translator:

"And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger - those will be with the ones upon whom Allah has bestowed favor of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions."

Is there one person who obeyed more than Amirul Momineen (عليه السلام)? The Ayat doesn't mention Imamah, but it mentions the Imam (عليه السلام). It can be read as such:

"And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad) meaning Ali who obeys them - He (Ali) will be with the ones (i.e. the Imams) upon whom Allah has bestowed favor of the Prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions."

Wassalam.

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4 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

In Surah Baqarah 2:124, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says to Nabi Ibrahim (عليه السلام): 

"I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." 

How could Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make NABI Ibrahim an IMAM, after he's already a nabi? This means that first Ibrahim got Nabuwat, then Risalat, and THEN Imamat.

 

On 7/16/2021 at 5:09 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

@Eddie Mecca Inshallah I'll give a reply but for now can you please go around saying Imam Ibrahim and Imam Muhammed. You got to acknowledge them by their higher rank.

 

Wa ‘alukum Salaam Zane Ibrahim 

If an army officer, a general, who was promoted to rank of Field Marshall would be addressed as Field Marshall So and So and never as a general, right?

So, as brother Ali Bin Hussein has rightly asked, why do not all Muslims, 12er Shias particularly, address Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them both) as Imam Ibrahim and Imam Muhammad?  I have yet to see 12er Shias do this!!!!

Ayatullah Khomeini is also addressed as Imam Khomeini, so has he also reached that rank?!!!!

4 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

The Ayat that you quoted, you translated incorrectly. This translation is by Saheeh International, a Sunni translator:

"And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger - those will be with the ones upon whom Allah has bestowed favor of the prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions."

Is there one person who obeyed more than Amirul Momineen (عليه السلام)? The Ayat doesn't mention Imamah, but it mentions the Imam (عليه السلام). It can be read as such:

"And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad) meaning Ali who obeys them - He (Ali) will be with the ones (i.e. the Imams) upon whom Allah has bestowed favor of the Prophets, the steadfast affirmers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous. And excellent are those as companions."

Sunni Conspiracy? Ok :) 
See the following link with multiple translations - far from what you have done! Collective conspiracy? :)

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/69/default.htm

 

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Brother Zane Ibrahim – I got the translation of the Blessed Qur’an by a 12er Shia scholar Ayatollah Sayyid Kamal Faqih Imani with commentary of the on the verse 69 of Surah an Nisa’a – Check it below.

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-4/section-9-hypocrites-refuse-accept-messengers#surah-nisa-verses-69-70

He has not even remotely suggested what you made it out to be. Brother, we have to very careful with words of Allah Almighty.  We cannot twist words to get to our desired meaning!

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Posted (edited)

The fact is that the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) are the bearers of the minniyat of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the one we know as "Imam ul Anbiya" or "Syed ul Anbiya e wal Mursaleen".

This very minniyat of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) makes the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) superior to all other Prophets. And this can be cited in few ahadith of Sunni books too where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned the status of Imam Mehdi ajtf and told that Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) will offer prayers behind him. 

في صحيح البخاري عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه أن الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، قال “كيف أنتم إذا نزل بن مريم وإمامكم منكم”.

قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( أَنْتَ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْكَ ) رواه البخاري (رقم/2699)

رواه الترمذي (3775) وابن ماجه (144) وأحمد (17111) عَنْ يَعْلَى بْنِ مُرَّةَ رضي الله عنه قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : ( حُسَيْنٌ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْ حُسَيْنٍ

 

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On 7/15/2021 at 7:32 PM, Eddie Mecca said:

@Zaidism, @Ali bin Husseinwhat say ye?

The Prophets/Messengers are superior to all Imams in the Zaydi creed. 

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I never understand why people debate this, when the ambiya and the aimmah are preaching the same message and complimentary to each other rather than in opposition.

The question of who is greater only becomes relevant when there is a clash or contradiction.

They are all at a blessed and elevated status and are our guides sent to us by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Brother Zane Ibrahim – I got the translation of the Blessed Qur’an by a 12er Shia scholar Ayatollah Sayyid Kamal Faqih Imani with commentary of the on the verse 69 of Surah an Nisa’a – Check it below.

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-4/section-9-hypocrites-refuse-accept-messengers#surah-nisa-verses-69-70

He has not even remotely suggested what you made it out to be. Brother, we have to very careful with words of Allah Almighty.  We cannot twist words to get to our desired meaning!

 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The Prophets/Messengers are superior to all Imams in the Zaydi creed. 

 

2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

I never understand why people debate this, when the ambiya and the aimmah are preaching the same message and complimentary to each other rather than in opposition.

The question of who is greater only becomes relevant when there is a clash or contradiction.

They are all at a blessed and elevated status and are our guides sent to us by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Assalamualaikum.

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "Regarding the saying of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "Verily among his Shia was Ibrahim", Verily Ibrahim (عليه السلام) is among the Shia of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), He (Ibrahim) is among the Shia of Ali (عليه السلام). And all those who are from among the Shia of Ali they are among the Shia of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)."

We say in Ziyarat Jamia Kabeera:

"Allah made you reach the noblest position of glory.

the highest station nearest to Allah

and the loftiest status of the Messengers

where none can ever reach you

nor can anyone surpass you

nor can anyone ever precede you

No can anyone look forward to reaching your positions

even the favorite Angels went for it

nor the commissioned Prophets

nor a friend nor a martyr

nor a scholar nor an ignorant

nor an inferior nor a superior

nor a pious faithful

nor a wicked sinner

nor an obstinate tyrant

nor a devilish rebel

nor any other being had ever been there

except that Allah informs them of the grandeur of your decisive authority."

This Ziyarat is Saheeh and it clearly states that the status of the A'immah is higher than that of the Rusul (except Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Wassalam.

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31 minutes ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Assalamualaikum

Walaykom Alsalam, 

There are more important issues to worry about. 

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Posted (edited)

Salam @Eddie Mecca

I think brother @Debate follower & @Zaidism have covered most the points.

I'll just say this using 12er sources and 12er scholars, 12er tafseer you can come to your conclusion.

As for Sunni and Zaidi we don't believe in Imamat being higher than Prophethood.

There is nothing explicit in Qur'an. Infact if you take the general use of Imama in the Quran it ranges from conditional leadership ordained to whome Allah chooses all the way to leaders who misguide. 

NOthi g in Sunni or Zaidi sources back your claim.

As for sources we agree on Sahifa Sajadiya, Musnad Imam Rezza, Nahjul balagah nothing supports your claim.

So lets leave it as that.

You want to believe your 12imams are higher in rank then the Prophets carry on, as it makes no difference to the main discussion that should be had what are the fundamentals of a sect and how does a layman get to that certainty without blind following.

I've asked numerous brothers to have this discussion with me from a top down perspective using a systematic approach but no one is interested. 

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8 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

As for sources we agree on Sahifa Sajadiya, Musnad Imam Rezza, Nahjul balagah nothing supports your claim.

(EID MUBARAK!!)

(Assalamualaikum)

"No one will enter Paradise except he who knows them and knows Him, and no one will enter Hell except he who denies them and denies Him." -Nahjul Balagha sermon 152 (https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-152-praise-be-allah-who#part-same-sermon-about-divine-leaders-imams)

If the Anbiya cannot enter Paradise without knowing Ali, how could Ali not be superior to them?

"42. Through his chain of authorities, he, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said: [Allah’s Messenger, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said:] “Whomsoever I am his Master, then ‘Ali is his master."" -Musnad of Imam ar-Ridha chapter 4 part 1 (https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-ali-bin-musa-al-ridha-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/3-sahifa-al-ridha#chapter-4-excellence-ahl-al-bayt)

If Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the Master of the Prophets, and Ali is the Master of whomever Muhammad is the Master of, Ali is the Master of the Prophets as well.

"56. Through his chain of authorities, he, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said: [Allah’s Messenger, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said:] “Al-Hasan and al-Husayn are the two masters of the youth of Heaven; and their father is better than them.” -Musnad of Imam ar-Ridha (عليه السلام) chapter 4 part 3 (https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-ali-bin-musa-al-ridha-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/3-sahifa-al-ridha#chapter-4-excellence-ahl-al-bayt)

If Hassan and Hussain are the masters of the youth of Paradise, and everyone in paradise is youth (based of authentic hadiths), the Hassan and Hussain are also the masters of the Anbiya.

Not gonna lie, it's kinda obvious from the above hadiths that Imamah is superior, but at the end of the day, 'lakum deenukum waliyadeen.' -Surah Kafiroon 109:6

Wassalam.

(EID MUBARAK!!)

 

 

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15 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

There is nothing explicit in Qur'an

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

What is explicit is that a Prophet of God has received the divine covenant of Imamate after going through test/trial and after passing the test. 

15 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Infact if you take the general use of Imama in the Quran it ranges from conditional leadership ordained to whome Allah chooses all the way to leaders who misguide

We are discussing the specific meaning of Imamate as a divine covenant which will not reach to the unjust according to 2:124

5 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Through his chain of authorities, he, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said: [Allah’s Messenger, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said:] “Whomsoever I am his Master, then ‘Ali is his master.""

This alone is sufficient. No further discussions required.

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّيْنَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَى ذَلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُواْ أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُواْ وَأَنَاْ مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ

3:81

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the mowla of all the Prophets. 

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Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام) knew certain names which were not known to Angels. Does that make Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام) superior to the angels?

Fact of the matter is that these comparisons are useless. Will you compare stars with stars when you yourself are nothing but a piece of dust?

True that, Hazrat Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was tested and then he was given Imamate but that means that Imamate carries a separate set of responsibilities than Prophethood & Messengership. 

As is clear from one of the sahih narrations of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that:

Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said “We were sitting waiting for the messenger of Allah ((عليه السلام).). He came out to us while his shoestring had been cut. He  gave it (the shoe) to Ali (to mend it). Then he (the Prophet) said, ‘There is one from among you who shall fight for the interpretation of the Qur’an as I have fought for its revelation.’ Abu Bakr said, ‘Is it me?’ The Prophet ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘No.’ Umar said, ‘Is it me?’ He said, ‘No, but he is the 
mender of the shoe.’” 

 

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16 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام) knew certain names which were not known to Angels. Does that make Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام) superior to the angels?

Adam (عليه السلام) certainly is superior to angels in his designation i.e., Khalifatullah. And "insaan", is famously known as اشرف المخلوقات in Islamic literature. 

 

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9 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

(EID MUBARAK!!)

(Assalamualaikum)

"No one will enter Paradise except he who knows them and knows Him, and no one will enter Hell except he who denies them and denies Him." -Nahjul Balagha sermon 152 (https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-152-praise-be-allah-who#part-same-sermon-about-divine-leaders-imams)

If the Anbiya cannot enter Paradise without knowing Ali, how could Ali not be superior to them?

"42. Through his chain of authorities, he, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said: [Allah’s Messenger, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said:] “Whomsoever I am his Master, then ‘Ali is his master."" -Musnad of Imam ar-Ridha chapter 4 part 1 (https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-ali-bin-musa-al-ridha-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/3-sahifa-al-ridha#chapter-4-excellence-ahl-al-bayt)

If Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the Master of the Prophets, and Ali is the Master of whomever Muhammad is the Master of, Ali is the Master of the Prophets as well.

"56. Through his chain of authorities, he, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said: [Allah’s Messenger, (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), said:] “Al-Hasan and al-Husayn are the two masters of the youth of Heaven; and their father is better than them.” -Musnad of Imam ar-Ridha (عليه السلام) chapter 4 part 3 (https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-ali-bin-musa-al-ridha-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/3-sahifa-al-ridha#chapter-4-excellence-ahl-al-bayt)

If Hassan and Hussain are the masters of the youth of Paradise, and everyone in paradise is youth (based of authentic hadiths), the Hassan and Hussain are also the masters of the Anbiya.

Not gonna lie, it's kinda obvious from the above hadiths that Imamah is superior, but at the end of the day, 'lakum deenukum waliyadeen.' -Surah Kafiroon 109:6

Wassalam.

(EID MUBARAK!!)

 

 

Eid Mubarak

Thanks for the hadith 

As for the interpretations they are your to keep.

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

Adam (عليه السلام) certainly is superior to angels in his designation i.e., Khalifatullah. And "insaan", is famously known as اشرف المخلوقات in Islamic literature

For further reference, read the following link:

https://www.al-islam.org/philosophy-islamic-laws-nasir-makarim-shirazi-jafar-subhani/question-98-man-superior-angels

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Cool said:

Adam (عليه السلام) certainly is superior to angels in his designation i.e., Khalifatullah. And "insaan", is famously known as اشرف المخلوقات in Islamic literature. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

No. Actually, this is not enough of a proof of superiority.

Allama Tabatabai has refuted this view (in the link) in his tafsir. Angels are, by essence, superior to mankind. Though, mankind possesses a certain capability to go above angels through actions.

There are innumerable verses in praise of Angels too.

So, the point is that there is no specific comparison or proof of superiority for any of the sides.

And man is called 'ashraf ul makhluqaat' based on verse 'And surely We have honored the children of Adam… and We preferred them greatly over many of those whom We have created (17:70)'.

But the problem in the above verse is that there is no absolute superiority but a general one as the verse says 'many of those' rather than 'all'. 

Edited by Zainuu
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50 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Angels are, by essence, superior to mankind.

Yet we see that one of the muqarrab malak like Jibra'il stopped at "Sidratul Muntaha" and "Insaan e Kamil" moved ahead and reached to the level of قاب قوسين او ادنى. 

Insaan e Kamil have access to that level where no angel ever reached. 

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

Yet we see that one of the muqarrab malak like Jibra'il stopped at "Sidratul Muntaha" and "Insaan e Kamil" moved ahead and reached to the level of قاب قوسين او ادنى. 

Insaan e Kamil have access to that level where no angel ever reached. 

Not only Insaan e Kamil but 'best of creation' and 'khair ul bashar'. Which doesn't contradicts my description above.

Plus, according to the narrations which say that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) first created the light of Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) proves that Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is way more than just 'insan e Kamil'.

We should accept that we humans are born out of dust and our journey is from Khaaq to Noor. Humility should be our jewel and simplicity should be our way. And complete obedience and submission to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is our final aim (something which an angel achieves from the moment he is created)

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27 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

And complete obedience and submission to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is our final aim (something which an angel achieves from the moment he is created)

 

بَلْ عِبَادٌ مُكْرَمُونَ لَا يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُمْ بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ

Nay! they are honored servants, They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act. (21:26-27)

Insaan possess the designation of حجة الله على الخلق. Angels are also the creation and hujjah of Allah upon the whole creation is Insaan. 

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4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

There are innumerable verses in praise of Angels too.

You know who made Jibraeel reach his position?

Go to 6:00

 

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3 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

You know who made Jibraeel reach his position?

Go to 6:00

 

Though, I don't know the authenticity of this. But this is not the point of argument. 

The refutation I see is on Hunan being vs angels. You can't 'shift the goal post' like that. Human being is not superior to angels.

As of Panjetan, there light is the first of creation and that is a completely separate case.

Regarding the main topic, 'Are Imams superior to prophets'

My point is that it is baseless. Do they contradict each other? Will you stop performing acts that are from Sunnah of prophets in that case? What will you gain?

Further, Imamate holds separate set of responsibilities from Nabuwwat. So, they both have different scenarios to deal with. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

this is not the point of argument.

Okay.

13 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Human being is not superior to angels.

Not ANY human being, but we both agree that Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the Best of Creation, but Amirul Momineen (عليه السلام), Fatima and the Imams are after him in greatness.

 

14 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

As of Panjetan, there light is the first of creation and that is a completely separate case.

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose to create these 5 members of Ahlul Bayt before angels Jibraeel (عليه السلام) and Mikaeel (عليه السلام), surely they are superior to them.

 

15 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

My point is that it is baseless.

Prophet Muhammad (ص) said,

"O Ali (ع)! Allah (تبارك و تعالى) has given preference (Fadhl) to Messengers over His close angels. And He has given Me preference (Fadhl) over all the Prophets and Messengers. And preference (Fadhl) after Me is for You, O Ali (ع) and for the Imams after you."

[Source: Uyun Akhbar al-Ridha, Vol. 2, Pg. 237]

Narrated to us Al-Sanady Bin Muhammad, from Yunus Bin Yaqoub, from Abdul Aala who said;

Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "No Prophet (عليه السلام) has ever been a Prophet (عليه السلام) at all except by recognizing Our rights, and by preferring Us over every one other than us."

[Source: Basair al-Darajaat, Vol. 1, Chapter. 9, Hadees. 1]

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "Regarding the saying of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "Verily among his Shia was Ibrahim", Verily Ibrahim (عليه السلام) is among the Shia of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him and his Progeny, He (Ibrahim) is among the Shia of Ali (عليه السلام). And all those who are from among the Shia of Ali they are among the Shia of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon Him and his pure Progeny."

[Source: Tawil Al Ayat Vol.2 Pg.495 (Sura-e-Saffat)]

21 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Do they contradict each other?

??

 

22 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Will you stop performing acts that are from Sunnah of prophets in that case?

The Imams teach the Sunnah of the greatest Prophet, Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 

23 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

What will you gain?

I will be correct.

 

26 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Further, Imamate holds separate set of responsibilities from Nabuwwat. So, they both have different scenarios to deal with.

Yes, I agree, but that doesn't mean that Imamate isn't higher Nabuwwat.

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On 7/18/2021 at 1:58 PM, Cool said:

And this can be cited in few ahadith of Sunni books too where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned the status of Imam Mehdi ajtf and told that Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) will offer prayers behind him.

Awesome point...I was about to make this very same point...this point should be deeply pondered and not discounted in a dismissive manner

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1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

will be correct.

Okay. And then what?

1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose to create these 5 members of Ahlul Bayt before angels Jibraeel (عليه السلام) and Mikaeel (عليه السلام), surely they are superior to them.

There essence doesn't fall into the category of human beings.

1 hour ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Imamate isn't higher Nabuwwat.

What about 12 chiefs of Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام)?

What about 12 hawaris of Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام)?

If you need to understand why Hazrat Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was made an Imam, you can read how his life went. There are 2 different phases in the life of Hazrat Ibrahim (عليه السلام). First is the one where he propagates the message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the reign of Namrood and second is when he leaves Babylon and establishes the laws in practice. 

Not to mention, many prophets themselves were also Imams.

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28 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Okay. And then what?

Then I will know if I should say 'Bihaqqil Ibrahim' or 'Bihaqqil Ali,' which will (inshallah) lead to my Du'a being answered.

 

29 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

There essence doesn't fall into the category of human beings.

Then simply, human beings are not better than angels. The thing is that they CAN be better than angels. Animals have desire. Angels have intellect. Humans have desire and intellect. They can either use it for good or bad. If they use it for good and reach the status of Imamate, they are better than angels because they chose to do so, whereas angels have no choice.

 

31 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

What about 12 chiefs of Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام)?

What about 12 hawaris of Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام)?

If you need to understand why Hazrat Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was made an Imam, you can read how his life went. There are 2 different phases in the life of Hazrat Ibrahim (عليه السلام). First is the one where he propagates the message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the reign of Namrood and second is when he leaves Babylon and establishes the laws in practice. 

Not to mention, many prophets themselves were also Imams.

What's your point?

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22 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

What about 12 chiefs of Hazrat Musa (عليه السلام)?

What about 12 hawaris of Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام)?

Salam & Eid Mubarak to all of you,

@Zainuu

The point for you to understand is that the Imams of Ahlul Bayt are the bearers of the minniyat of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This is the key difference, secondly the scope of Prophethood of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he is the Imam & Mowla of every prophet, hence when Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said من كنت مولا، don't just limit the scope to the people attended the ghadeer & afterwards. I think it includes all the previous generations too. If anyone of them would be alive, he would have to accept Ali (عليه السلام) as his mowla. And we will see this at the end times, who will be the Mowla of Jesus (عليه السلام)? Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) or you think Isa (عليه السلام) will be the Mowla of Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام)? 

 

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25 minutes ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Then I will know if I should say 'Bihaqqil Ibrahim' or 'Bihaqqil Ali,' which will (inshallah) lead to my Du'a being answered.

With this flawed logic, you wouldn't say either, rather you would say bihaqqi muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

This is probably why qiyaas is heavily condemned in our madhab. It leads people to faulty conclusions. 

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18 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

you would say bihaqqi muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

Allah said to say bihaqqi Ali:

Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) said:

When Adam ((عليه السلام).) failed to cling to the preferable and left it, he confessed to his sin and sought pardon saying: O Lord! Kindly accept my repentance and excuse and grant me my earlier rank and raise my status, because the effect of this fault of mine has appeared in all parts of my body.

At that time, Almighty said: O Adam! Do you not remember that I had called upon you that when you face calamities and troubles, you must give the mediation of Muhammad and his progeny ((عليه السلام).) and then you should pray to Me?

Adam said: Indeed O Lord! I do recall it.

Allah said: Seek the mediation, especially of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) and ask from Me. I will answer your request and grant you more than your want.

Adam submitted: O Allah! O my Lord! Their rank, in my sight, has reached so much that, through their mediation, my mistake has been pardoned by You, though You had commanded the angels to prostrate before me and You made Your Paradise available to me and You married Your slave-girl, Hawwa, with me and You made angels my servants (how much beneficent You are)!

In reply, Almighty said: O Adam! I had asked angels to prostrate only because you were the container of these Five Precious Personalities and had you, before your mistake, requested me, making them mediators to protect you from mistake and even to make you aware of the delusion of Iblees for being protected from his evil, I would have accepted that request also. But whatever becomes known to Me earlier comes true. Now you may pray to Me making them your Waseelah. I will certainly accept it.

Then Adam ((عليه السلام).) prayed like this: O Allah, I give You the Waseelah of Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s.) and of his Purified Progeny, I repeat, of the mediation of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain ((عليه السلام).) and of their progeny ((عليه السلام).), please forgive my mistake and make me regain the rank You have so graciously granted to me and grant me more through Your generosity.

In reply the Almighty Allah said: O Adam! I have accepted your prayer and am pleased with you and I have turned My gifts and grants towards you and re-established you to your earlier rank, which I had granted you by My grace and now I have given full benefits of My unfathomable bounties.

Source: Tafseer of Imam Hasan Askari(عليه السلام), Sura-e-Baqara, Verse 35-39

 

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2 hours ago, Zane Ibrahim said:

Allah said to say bihaqqi Ali:

Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام).) said:

When Adam ((عليه السلام).) failed to cling to the preferable and left it, he confessed to his sin and sought pardon saying: O Lord! Kindly accept my repentance and excuse and grant me my earlier rank and raise my status, because the effect of this fault of mine has appeared in all parts of my body.

 

Interesting, so what type of infallibility does Nabi Adam have according to 12er in light of this tafseer ?

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