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In the Name of God بسم الله

Self defence in non Muslim lands

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Rectly a good discussion started about gun rights and self defense on the building a mosque thread.

As it was off topic I tght we can continue here.

I think all Muslim community should be ready to be able defend themselves and organise into a militia if the need arises.

If your country allows guns learn to shoot. If not learn to fire a bow and arrow and do some MMA.

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5 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I think all Muslim community should be ready to be able defend themselves and organise into a militia if the need arises.

If your country allows guns learn to shoot. If not learn to fire a bow and arrow and do some MMA.

Isn't there a hadith about teaching your children archery? 

But how about defending others? Are we Muslims obligated to always stand up for the oppressed if we are able? 

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Posted (edited)

Imam Zaid bin Ali ( may Allah be pleased with him ) said " if the Imam has few followers then he should not fight the rebillions . However , if the followers reach to three hundered and few above the ten like Bader army members then he should fight and have no excuse for leaving the fight for the reason that nothing is better the Jehad " (musnad Zaid)

O Allah, and if the affair of Islam should worry a Muslim and the alliance of the idolaters' against Islam should grieve him, so that he has the intention to go to war and is about to enter the struggle, but frailty keeps him seated,neediness keeps him waiting, a mishap delays him, or an obstruction prevents him from his wish, write his name among the worshipers, make incumbent for him the reward of the strugglers, and place him among the 
ranks of the martyrs and the righteous!

Sahifa sajadiya

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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15 hours ago, notme said:

Isn't there a hadith about teaching your children archery? 

But how about defending others? Are we Muslims obligated to always stand up for the oppressed if we are able? 

There is about archery swimming and riding

A seperate hadith about wrestling

We are obliged there is a hadith about the level. To summarize action if not tongue if not hearts

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I strongly support the right of people to keep and use firearms, however, I doubt their usefulness if we need to protect ourselves and our communities against an oppressive government. 

I, personality, don't like to shoot guns. They're noisy and un-subtle. I used to practice a little archery with targets, and I'd love to get back into that. I also used to train in kung fu, which included stick, staff, and sword. I really should get back into that. 

My community defense is gardening and food preservation for self-sufficiency. 

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In the place where I live, it’s not permissible to use weapons. But still we have tasers so that we can protect ourselves. 

14 hours ago, notme said:

My community defense is gardening and food preservation for self-sufficiency. 

That’s what my grandmother does too. She uses sniper or shotgun when a snakes attack her chickens. Her neighbors helps her too.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

I strongly support the right of people to keep and use firearms, however, I doubt their usefulness if we need to protect ourselves and our communities against an oppressive government. 

I, personality, don't like to shoot guns. They're noisy and un-subtle. I used to practice a little archery with targets, and I'd love to get back into that. I also used to train in kung fu, which included stick, staff, and sword. I really should get back into that. 

My community defense is gardening and food preservation for self-sufficiency. 

Ukhti if they were useless against the government then the government wouldn’t be trying to ban them. This is discussed in this short clip:

 

 

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16 minutes ago, MexicanVato said:

Ukhti if they were useless against the government then the government wouldn’t be trying to ban them.

Not useless, but not useful enough. We need our own mass communication separate from government control. That would be a much more effective "weapon". We need to break free from dependence on mass production, printed money and banks, and petroleum products. They use access to those to control us. 

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2 minutes ago, notme said:

Not useless, but not useful enough. We need our own mass communication separate from government control. That would be a much more effective "weapon". We need to break free from dependence on mass production, printed money and banks, and petroleum products. They use access to those to control us. 

I can’t argue against that.

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Look. If we have to use guns to defend ourselves, then what? What is the endpoint and what happens after we have defended? 

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2 minutes ago, notme said:

Look. If we have to use guns to defend ourselves, then what? What is the endpoint and what happens after we have defended? 

Well we are currently not in the state of emergency to have to use it. I was simply pointing out that the purpose of the 2nd amendment is to defend against tyranny. I do not dream of rising against the government. I don’t glorify or romanticize that sort of violence.  I hope Americans never have to experience a civil war like the war between the states. 

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8 minutes ago, notme said:

Look. If we have to use guns to defend ourselves, then what? What is the endpoint and what happens after we have defended? 

Fighting the government rarely ends well. But the end is you see success in this dunya or die a martyr.

Win win

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15 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I think it's all important to have a micro economy. Eg an established practice of trading goods and skills without currency.

We should establish an organization similar to the Socialist Rifle Association, which focuses on firearms skill and safety, and also on self-sufficiency and community building. Probably we should not name it Muslim Rifle Association, but something more "pacifist". 

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Your civil wars will be brutal. You would kill each other with heavy weaponry. Imagine a civil war in the UK compared to the USA.

If the people are not smart enough to vote for good leaders, they are not smart enough to hold guns. The populace has already the means to change the leaders but they fail miserably. 

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1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

If the people are not smart enough to vote for good leaders

When have we ever been offered any good leaders to vote for? Not in my lifetime, and I'm old! The people vote, but the people do not choose the candidates. 

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2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Your civil wars will be brutal. You would kill each other with heavy weaponry. Imagine a civil war in the UK compared to the USA.

If the people are not smart enough to vote for good leaders, they are not smart enough to hold guns. The populace has already the means to change the leaders but they fail miserably. 

@Ali bin Husseinmaybe you zaydis are right. Muslims in general are so complacent and just accept defeat from the elite. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, notme said:

When have we ever been offered any good leaders to vote for?

I can't say a lot about your country but does it not offer a means to select better candidates much before the election?

We in the UK have a means to select candidates much earlier than the general election. But we end up choosing the wrong people. Our prime minister was chosen by ordinary people from a list of candidates in his party. And that list of people were chosen by people at local elections. We are at fault.

Consider how many people actually believed that Corbyn was anti-Semitic. Doesn't that show you how ignorant the people were? You have seen it in your own country. And you have seen it with our extreme conspiracy friends on this forum. 

The fact that we end up with such bad candidates is a reflection of the people. You cannot expect good leaders to come about when the people are ignorant and negligent. Throughout the history of Islam we have seen how easily people are duped by bad leaders. Imam Ali {a} was appointed leader in front of about 100k people, yet some how Abu Bakr took power. The people were weak and disorganised. 

I am not saying people are incapable of ever making intelligent decisions in this context, nor am I calling them immoral to the extent of choosing such lousy leaders.

 

 

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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4 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Voting is just smoke and mirrors to allow the elite to control society.

Indeed it has been (given other compounding circumstances), but it doesn't take away from the fact that it has revealed how poor some people's decision making has been.

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I don't think relying on political leaders is the way forward. Communities need to become self sufficient in order to escape reliance on their governments. They need to empower themselves intellectually and economically. It is difficult but not impossible, certain communities have somewhat achieved this already. 

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11 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

Ukhti if they were useless against the government then the government wouldn’t be trying to ban them.

I doubt your government feels directly threatened by armed civilians. I can't recall the last time anyone tried to use guns against them. 

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I doubt your government feels directly threatened by armed civilians. I can't recall the last time anyone tried to use guns against them. 

January 6, 2021. 

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1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I can't say a lot about your country but does it not offer a means to select better candidates much before the election?

Hypothetically anyone who has enough financial support and can get enough signatures can run for any public office, but for all practical purposes, if they don't have the support of the two nearly identical major political parties, nobody will know they exist. 

My friend tried to run for a local office as a member of The People's Party, and he was given false information, had to jump through dozens of hoops, had to go out physically collecting signatures during a pandemic, met all the requirements, and still was denied a spot on the ballots. 

Also, Bernie Sanders won the Primary which preceded Hilary Clinton's loss, so clearly the vote in the primary doesn't matter. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

There was a gunfight?

No, but armed Trump supporters broke into and vandalized the capitol building and attempted to stop the function of government. They failed. If I remember correctly, no police and only one traitor was shot. 

Edited by notme
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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't think relying on political leaders is the way forward.

To clarify: It is not the view I hold. If we rely upon political leaders we will always be in a bad state. We have to  improve (including empowerment) ourselves and also exert political pressure. The former should have priority over the latter. 

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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11 minutes ago, notme said:

No, but armed Trump supporters broke into and vandalized the capitol building and attempted to stop the function of government. They failed. If I remember correctly, no police and only one traitor was shot. 

Armed? Check the story again. Btw not defending them but they were ‘let in’. It’s game of thrones. 

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1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I am making a serious argument, at least give a serious rebuttal instead of accusations and mockery.

Your argument is the age old liberal argument of “what type of weapons should we be ALLOWED to have”. I don’t really need to rebut that. My views are my views. My sword is my rifles and pistols. I mean no harm to anyone that doesn’t wish to harm me.

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9 minutes ago, MexicanVato said:

Armed? Check the story again. Btw not defending them but they were ‘let in’. It’s game of thrones. 

The woman who was shot and killed was unarmed. Police should not kill people to protect property, no matter how stupid the people are, but that's what happened here. Some others in the crowd were armed. 

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2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

I am making a serious argument, at least give a serious rebuttal instead of accusations and mockery.

I raised some pretty good points in the other thread. Could you please address them?

56 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I doubt your government feels directly threatened by armed civilians. I can't recall the last time anyone tried to use guns against them.

That's because nothing has happened just yet to provoke the masses. Life right now in the states is relatively good. Apply enough pressure and you'll see the results.

 

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1 hour ago, MexicanVato said:

Your argument is the age old liberal argument of “what type of weapons should we be ALLOWED to have”. I don’t really need to rebut that. My views are my views. My sword is my rifles and pistols. I mean no harm to anyone that doesn’t wish to harm me.

To be clear, I am not a liberal. 

If the point of having guns is to defend against a government then surely as a government becomes more powerful, the citizens need to own more powerful weapons to counter them. As another poster said, the citizens need to be as powerful as a government soldier. However if that were to happen you would have major problems in society.

My point about civil war is also serious. You are speaking about a hypothetical tail event, e.g. attack from a government; however civil war is also a tail event. If guns supposedly will aid you with the former, they will destroy your society in the latter. The US is creeping towards it.

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