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In the Name of God بسم الله

Self defence in non Muslim lands

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Funny how you are describing the lesser jihad as a "holy war", which implies a religious sanctioned offensive or terrorism as Orientalists, big media and Islamophobes would have people erroneously believe about jihad, totally skipping the fact that it is self-defense or it's limitations. 

I think the phrase holy war fits extremely well in this context as per its definition. Should I care about what they say? You don't fight propaganda by saving face. You clearly understand what I'm getting at and I don't find myself needing to censor my words. I'm also sure you aren't suggesting we water down the book of Allah? I will always choose my creator and his satisfaction over those of my fellow man.

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them.  (9:73).

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth» (9:29).

By the way no where in this entire discussion has anyone advocated for the death or harm to any innocents. It's made very clear the limitations of Jihad.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (2:190)

35 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You're absolutely right, there is no comparison. Al-Jihad al-Akbar is the greater struggle, it trumps Jihad bis Saif, which is a lesser form of Jihad.

I disagree, Jihad al-nafs is a subset of jihad al-saif. You cannot perform Jihad al-saif without first being willing to die in the path of Allah. This starts from detachment of life, ambition and luxury. Ultimately what Jihad al Nafs is. Drawing from basic logic here but the point I believe stands firm. Quran 3:142 seems to be clear about the distinction between those who perform jihad and those who choose to stay steadfast and that is from the tafsir of Sayid Kamil Faqih Imani.

 

 

Edited by Patient Warrior
Quick point added.
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Some of you are under the misunderstanding that I've said violence is never necessary. At no point did I say this. Read. 

All I said is desiring violence is unwise and immature, and engaging in violence without an endpoint and a future plan is destructive. (Though rarely it's probably also necessary.) Further, sacrificing your own life and the lives of others for no benefit is not beneficial. 

If my country, which has about 2-3% Muslim population, were to outlaw Islam, without a coalition of non-Muslim supporters, probably the only wise course of action would be to emigrate. If the population were 20% or more, and most of those were politically and socially active, it might be worthwhile to fight the law with violence. As it is, most Muslims are not involved in community issues, and most are addicted to consumption and would not suffer for the sake of their beliefs. If those few, maybe 10% of the 3% of the population at most, were to fight, they would be most likely squashed to no benefit. 

Maybe with a plan and alliances with non-Muslims things would be different. 

But the US isn't going to outlaw Islam. They will just make sure everyone is divided and distracted and exhausted, and then the empire is secure. 

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18 hours ago, notme said:

Being eager to respond to violence with violence, or worse, being eager to initiate violence, without having an endpoint and a plan for afterward is immature and unwise. 

this is something a lot of us are failing to commit to

we need to actively insert ourselves into strong positions in society, and raise our children and brethren and insert them covertly into positions of power (without compromising essentials of religion) so that when the time of our Imam (ajtf) comes we are ready to force necessary changes.

Indeed, indiscriminate violence at every turn is stupid and inhumane. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) never enjoined the violence per say as a certain someone might be implying, it is the justice which it brought forth that he loved. There is a reason he walked away when that one fool dared to spit at him, then returned to finish him off; because he did not like violence but loved justice and he ensured his swing was for Allah and not out of his anger.

When were our Aimmah the aggressors? When did they strike first when it came to a matter of violence? We need to be smart and do what the evil powers are trying to do to us; infiltrate.

Problem is, a lot of these positions of power necessitate sinful dealings =S It's a walk on a tight rope, and it takes a solid heart to not compromise one's faith when faced the offering of wealth and power in this vain world.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

I disagree, Jihad al-nafs is a subset of jihad al-saif. You cannot perform Jihad al-saif without first being willing to die in the path of Allah.

 I hope that I am not speaking from a place of ignorance and you can disagree with me all you want, jihad al akbar comes first. Jihad al-saif is a lesser jihad, without the former, it cannot exist. We cannot fight for the Ummah until we change the condition we find ourselves in. (13:11)  Without building the necessary spiritual strength and religious conviction, one will never be ready to follow the path of Islam, much less die for it.

19 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

By the way no where in this entire discussion has anyone advocated for the death or harm to any innocents. It's made very clear the limitations of Jihad.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (2:190)

Putting jihad al-saif over jihad al-nafs seems like a transgression of its limits, for the Qur'an says later: 

Quote

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you but do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors.  And kill them [in battle] wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Ḥarām until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] religion [i.e., worship] is [acknowledged to be] for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression [i.e., assault] except against the oppressors.

This is the flaw of Salafist thought and people like Sayyid Qutb who seem to think jihad is an excuse to kill and murder the "kuffar".

 

19 hours ago, Patient Warrior said:

I'm also sure you aren't suggesting we water down the book of Allah? I will always choose my creator and his satisfaction over those of my fellow man.

Clearly I'm not, however I am wary of the fact that you are really fixated on jihad al-saif and overstating its' importance. 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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27 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

jihad al akbar comes first.

I agree with you. But If we were to observe this from a logical standpoint this is the outcome;

Jihad Al-Akbar is a requirement upon every single Muslim. "Children of Adam, did I not command you not to serve Satan, for he was your sworn enemy" 36:60. This battle is mandatory upon you and me until death over takes us. This isn't a sacrifice as much as it a large portion of being Muslim. You can't just take this definition and use the "Akbar" vs "Asghar" argument to show that it trumps the other. Even after re observing Imam Khomeini's book on the matter he never states this. You obviously will be participating in one more than the other. Now by definition I've literally stated that it is a subset to performing Jihad Al-saif since one is compulsory and the other is not unless called upon an Imam to participate.

Once again because you never quoted it; "This starts from detachment of life, ambition and luxury". This is important and must be reinstated because in order to participate in a Jihad Al-Saif you must demonstrate obedience to God and the willingness to sacrifice the most valuable thing an individual possesses which is his life. Often these kinds of opportunities present when the easier route would be to ignore and be patient.

Again I'm going to say it; you're doing a huge disservice to the Shuhadat that have demonstrated mastery of Jihad Sabil Allah.

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The Holy Prophet (S) said: "No drop is more beloved with Allah, Almighty and Glorious, than the drop of blood which is poured in the way of Allah.

Wasa'il-ush Shi'ah, vol. 15, p. 14

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The Holy Prophet (S) said: "There is a goodness above any goodness until when a believing person, (fighting against the enemies of Islam who slaughter Muslims), is killed in the way of Allah, Almighty and Glorious, then there is no goodness above it."

Bihar-ul-Anwar, vol. 10, p. 100

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44 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Putting jihad al-saif over jihad al-nafs seems like a transgression of its limits, for the Qur'an says later: 

The context of this entire thread has been about self-defense? I haven't observed anyone here speak otherwise. So I'm unsure what you're trying to demonstrate with the remainder of the ayat. None of us are advocating for the Salafi ideology of Jihad of attacking first.

 

45 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

This is the flaw of Salafist thought and people like Sayyid Qutb who seem to think jihad is an excuse to kill and murder the "kuffar".

(See above) I've made my points clear. I'm not advocating for anything beyond the reasonable and what Allah has deemed appropriate and loved in his eyes.

46 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Clearly I'm not, however I am wary of the fact that you are really fixated on jihad al-saif and overstating its' importance. 

I'll just regurgitate my previous point here so again see above. There is no greater honor than to die in the path of Allah. There's a reason martyrs have a higher position than those who weren't on the day of judgement. Don't forget our entire religion is built on the predicate that the Mahdi will return and instate Allah's justice. Do you think this will be done with peaceful assemblies and debates? We the Shia are not in the wrong for ever defending our Ummah but obviously this must be done within the margins we both defined earlier.

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