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In the Name of God بسم الله

Collapse of Afghanistan

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6 hours ago, Marbles said:

Since you seem to have insider knowledge of the deepest covert operations conducted by the US and its proxies across the region, anything anyone might say would sound redundant.

But I have only one observation to make. You seem to credit the US with so much power and reach to shape every bit of policy and its outcome, as if they or any of their proxies could never fail in their objectives. I am sure the Americans feel flattered. 

It would be quite the dream wouldn't it?

As of lately though, the US has had a "not in my backyard" mentality. Where issues aren't believed to be worthwhile unless they're literally on our soil. 

It seems that the US has found it's limitations in Afghanistan (and in Iraq, and in Syria and in the middle east at large). 

China is growing fast, and they've done so without firing a single shot in the middle east. Maybe we should be following their example.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I don't believe the US failed in Afghanistan or in the "Collapse" of Afghanistan.

I see this as a very, very peaceful transfer of power between 2 US friendly political entities. Mullah Ghani Baradar was pulled from prison, moved to Qatar, negotiated with and possibly groomed to take over. These are facts.

US could never come out and say we are replacing the existing gov with the Taliban so the narrative is a "quick and hostile" take over by Taliban. It's has been too peaceful for it to be anything but this.

So the real question is what happens next?

I believe the next target will be Syria (again) but with troops on the ground. There have been a few articles already on "the real story of chemical weapons used by Assad" in the past few months already.

Other option is Iran of course. Look for Afghanistan to offer bases to attack Iran.

But may be I am crazy...

Is it too unbearable to believe that the Taliban simply could have so much influence in Afghanistan, that the US (alone) cannot stop (or simply doesnt want to invest the time and money to stop) them from controlling the country?

I think that some people are so disturbed by the truth of the situation that they'd rather not believe it. It's too ugly to be true.

China is taking the smarter approach.  The world is moving fast. Technology is developing quickly and America needs to have full attention on itself to stay competitive. We don't have time or money to essentially waste in a region that doesn't want us to be there. 

It was simply a failed plan.

The solution in Afghanistan will have to come organically from within. Not from some foreigners who in large part know next to nothing about afghan culture, history and religion.

And if people want democracy, they have to be willing to fight for it. It sounds like many afghans support the Taliban and didn't care much for the idea of voting or religious freedom. Many fought and died for Afghanistan's freedom, but many more fought back and fought for the Taliban. Or stayed back and didn't fight at all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/world/asia/afghanistan-mohammad-ismail-khan.html

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/afghan-militia-leaders-atta-noor-dostum-escape-conspiracy-2021-08-14/

Edited by iCenozoic
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Posted (edited)

Ay, quite sad to see Afghanistan fall to the talibans. Muslims are unfortunately entering a dark age. And as much as my heart is sad for the coming dark age of Afghanistan, the harsh truth is that the talibans enjoy a strong support base from the pashtos, who are the majority of afghans. Best thing we can do right now is to pray for the afghan people, regardless if they're sunni or shia. And the solution to Afghanistan's problems has to come from within. Like it or not, the reason that the Talibans have been able to make such strides and take over so fast, is because the talibans are rooted in afghan culture. Even before this takeover, the talibans were making huge progress.

You simply can't come from the outside and try to introduce a political system that is a foreign concept to the people. And it's not the job of any country to go to some distant country and do nation-building.

Edited by Dubilex
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1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

Is it too unbearable to believe that the Taliban simply could have so much influence in Afghanistan, that the US (alone) cannot stop (or simply doesnt want to invest the time and money to stop) them from controlling the country?

I think that some people are so disturbed by the truth of the situation that they'd rather not believe it. It's too ugly to be true.

I agree with you. This is not a collapse but simple negotiated transfer of power. The taliban leader was released from Pak prison at the behest of the US, moved to Qatar and negotiated with since 2018.

The conspiracy part is only the fake outrage and surprise in the media about how this could have happened.

1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

China is taking the smarter approach.  The world is moving fast. Technology is developing quickly and America needs to have full attention on itself to stay competitive. We don't have time or money to essentially waste in a region that doesn't want us to be there. 

It was simply a failed plan.

The solution in Afghanistan will have to come organically from within. Not from some foreigners who in large part know next to nothing about afghan culture, history and religion.

That's the other part of my conspiracy. This "pull-out" is because there is something brewing. You say China...possibly.

It could also be to re-group against the Russia-China-Iran-Turkey-Pakistan bloc. The point is there are other things at play here - Afghanistan was and is merely a pawn.

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Posted (edited)

I‘m wondering about some people here spreading Taliban propaganda that fast. I thought, this would be a Shia website not the comment section of Al Jazeera or a Salafi website. Afghans are getting oppressed by Taliban and people pretend as if nothing has happened or even support the perpetrators of oppression/Dhulm.

I guess that this must be the result of mixing political interests with a pure religion.

Edited by lover
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This is a must watch video, especially for when you are faced with arguments that the Afghan military should have done more:

 

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MOSCOW, August 16. /TASS/. Russia does not think that Afghanistan under the Taliban (outlawed in Russia) will turn into a version of the Islamic State, Russia’s Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan Zamir Kabulov said on Monday.

"No, I don’t have this concern," he replied to a question on the matter. "I saw in reality the Taliban fighting ISIS (outlawed in Russia) and fighting it viciously unlike the Americans and the whole of NATO, including the Afghan leadership that fled, who did not counter ISIS and only pandered to it. Representatives of the highest Taliban leadership were telling me that they only have this to say to ISIS: there will be no captives." 

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MOSCOW, August 16. /TASS/. Russia’s Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan Zamir Kabulov believes that it is unfounded to believe that the Taliban (outlawed in Russia) rose to power in Afghanistan as a result of any agreements with the United States. 

"I doubt it. I think that those behind such inventions are trying to justify Washington’s failure in Afghanistan and paint it as a pre-planned move. I think it is absolutely groundless. It just happened the way it did," he told the Echo Moskvy radio station when asked to comment on the fact that several experts voiced this opinion.

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Although Moscow still officially regards the group as terrorists, this hasn't stopped it from hosting them in the Russian capital and becoming the most influential player in that country's peace process, once again behind Pakistan. In fact, it clearly seems as though the Eurasian Great Power's pragmatic stance towards the Taliban is a direct consequence of the rapid Russian-Pakistani rapprochement in recent years, which has led to geostrategically game-changing outcomes such as this one as well as the exciting opportunity to integrate Central & South Asia. ...

Special Presidential Envoy to Afghanistan Zamir Kabulov said on Monday that “the situation is perfectly calm” in Kabul. ... Russian Ambassador to Afghanistan Dmitry Zhirnov also counteracted the West's hyperbolic claims of an imminent humanitarian crisis by clarifying that the report of “A stampede at the airport does not mean that all of the Afghan people are trying to flee.” ... According to Zhirnov, Western journalists are misportraying the situation since Russia's view is that there's no reason to panic. ISIS isn't rising, Kabul is mostly calm, and civilians are safe. ...

Kabulov also revealed that diplomats are safe too. He said that the Russian Embassy in Kabul was now under the Taliban's protection, showing just how close those two have become. Ambassador Dmitry Zhirnov added that the group promised him that “no one will harm a hair on the heads of Russian diplomats”. ... Moving along, Kabulov also debunked the most popular conspiracy theory to pop up in over the past day, namely that the Taliban are US proxies. ...a spokesman from the Russian Embassy in Kabul revealed that Ghani fled with cars full of cash, most of which he transported out of the country by helicopter while leaving some behind.

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I hope that a lesson is learnt when it comes to trusting the US government and their promises.

One would assume that the lesson would not be needed to be learnt since it is shown in history books over and over again but it seems some humans can only learn from history that they experience first hand.

It is also astonishing to me how there are shias much like some wahabis who always find a way to connect anything bad happening in the world to the government of Iran and blame them for their own inability. It is also astonishing to me that when analyzing such people and their line of opinions throughout different topics, it seems to be that the ones who have the most critic against the government of Iran are also the ones who hold the government of Iran to the highest of standards. Which one is it? If they are hypocrites then why does it anger you when they act like what you call them? I wonder who the hypocrites are in this case...

Lets find a way to make the current events in Afghanistan about how bad the government of Iran is... even though Iran with all of its financial struggles is the country that has taken more afghan refugees than any other country in the world, but lets not mention that. I wonder what such people with such mindsets will be able to achieve in life other than being victims of circumstances that they themselves refuse to get involved in other than verbally, complaining and blaming.

 

Moving on, I would like to research about about the taliban movement of today, if anyone has any good study material please do share. I wonder if the taliban movement is as unison as some seem to think, their ideologies might be different internally and could be used to prevent the worst from getting power among them.

I am not sure that the taliban of today are like the taliban of 20+ years ago, older generations are most of them dead by now, the world is different and I also wonder if wahabism has such a strong reach as it used to now that the saudis dont state endorse wahabism like they used to. From what I have heard and seen so far, it seems like the taliban movement have not targeted the shias yet but I do not know if it is a matter of time or that their ideology have changed. Mutual enemies have a way of bringing people together, especially when they are foreign kuffar invaders. 

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8 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I agree with you. This is not a collapse but simple negotiated transfer of power. The taliban leader was released from Pak prison at the behest of the US, moved to Qatar and negotiated with since 2018.

The conspiracy part is only the fake outrage and surprise in the media about how this could have happened.

That's the other part of my conspiracy. This "pull-out" is because there is something brewing. You say China...possibly.

It could also be to re-group against the Russia-China-Iran-Turkey-Pakistan bloc. The point is there are other things at play here - Afghanistan was and is merely a pawn.

 

That something that is brewing is called the future. The world's technological revolution that hasn't stopped advancing. We have major hacking wars going on, we have the electric revolution unfolding, we have nuclear fission around the corner, space activities are picking up both commercially and militarily, we have carbon dioxide levels to manage, all the while working through a global pandemic.

Why should America spend any more time in Afghanistan? We have other priorities. 

I mentioned China because they're advancing at a fast pace, in part because they are focusing on internal research and development moreso than trying to "fix" other countries. They've been smart enough to stay out of Afghanistan (and Iraq and Syria). With the exception of china's missions to harvest mineral deposits from Afghanistan. And Afghanistan will likely be better off without foreign forces meddling in their country as well. 

To summarize it all, there are simply bigger fish to fry. And Americans know this. Kansas before Kandahar has significant meaning.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Moving on, I would like to research about about the taliban movement of today, if anyone has any good study material please do share. I wonder if the taliban movement is as unison as some seem to think, their ideologies might be different internally and could be used to prevent the worst from getting power among them.

I am not sure that the taliban of today are like the taliban of 20+ years ago, older generations are most of them dead by now, the world is different and I also wonder if wahabism has such a strong reach as it used to now that the saudis dont state endorse wahabism like they used to. From what I have heard and seen so far, it seems like the taliban movement have not targeted the shias yet but I do not know if it is a matter of time or that their ideology have changed. Mutual enemies have a way of bringing people together, especially when they are foreign kuffar invaders. 

Unfortunately they're still the same. They're always be the same. They'll never change.

They're being taken down the flags of Shia. They just act for the world that they're changed, respect women etc. It's all act. Their promises are all fake. Why did they target the school which many young girls lost their lives?. The Taliban are barbaric animals. I don't care what sect they follow.

They'll continue their oppression, Look at what they did my town Herat, forcing young girls and widows into marriage, whipping women in public and all other horrific acts.

All of the terrorists have one target which to completely destroy the shia and follower of Ahl Bayet . May God Show Mercy on us.

May God Hasten the Appearance of Imam Mehdi (AJF)

 

Edited by Meedy
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I don't believe the US failed in Afghanistan or in the "Collapse" of Afghanistan.

I see this as a very, very peaceful transfer of power between 2 US friendly political entities. Mullah Ghani Baradar was pulled from prison, moved to Qatar, negotiated with and possibly groomed to take over. These are facts.

US could never come out and say we are replacing the existing gov with the Taliban so the narrative is a "quick and hostile" take over by Taliban. It's has been too peaceful for it to be anything but this.

So the real question is what happens next?

I believe the next target will be Syria (again) but with troops on the ground. There have been a few articles already on "the real story of chemical weapons used by Assad" in the past few months already.

Other option is Iran of course. Look for Afghanistan to offer bases to attack Iran.

But may be I am crazy...

No. You're not crazy. This is a very plausible explanation for the events. Only time will tell if it's true or not. I don't think the US has in their mind to attack Iran, at the present time, though I may be wrong. I think they're trying to use the Taliban to put pressure on Iran from the East, as the plan to use ISIS to put pressure on Iran from the West failed completely. 

I don't believe the US is 'in charge' of these groups like the Taliban or ISIS. They have their own leadership and their own agenda. The US uses money and payments to manipulate these groups to do 'jobs' for them when they need them to do it. When a group no longer serves a purpose for them, they abandon them, like they did with the Afghan government led by Ghani. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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34 minutes ago, Meedy said:

Unfortunately they're still the same. They're always be the same. They'll never change.

Russia and China also seem to be colluding with the U.S. on the matter of Afghanistan in order to appease the West and deflect its attention. For example, Putin’s presidential envoy to Afghanistan flatly denied claims that the West and the Taliban were working together to stage the takeover of Kabul. (Russia is also claiming that the Taliban fight Daesh, while Afghans on the ground tell a completely different story.) On the contrary, the head of Hezbollah lends credence to those claims. Certain “political” figures in the Iranian civil government are also disingenuously claiming that the Taliban are distinct from al-Qaida and Daesh. Ayatollah Safi has sided with Hezbollah and criticised the so-called “international community,” implicitly including Iran’s so-called “friends” Russia and China, for being willing to negotiate with and recognise the new Taliban-run regime in Kabul. Any party that is willing to tolerate the Taliban will soon receive a rude awakening, in my view. Russia and China, to not mention India, will soon face regrets, once the Taliban begin sponsoring terrorism abroad.

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18 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

No. You're not crazy. This is a very plausible explanation for the events. Only time will tell if it's true or not. I don't think the US has in their mind to attack Iran, at the present time, though I may be wrong. I think they're trying to use the Taliban to put pressure on Iran from the East, as the plan to use ISIS to put pressure on Iran from the West failed completely. 

I think that's could be the plan, instead of direct attack, they use this. They might use this against Russia and China, hence why they are careful with their wording because the taliban may start attacking them whilst Pakistan, Saudi and West provide support for them to do their dirty work.

 

6 minutes ago, Northwest said:

“political” figures in the Iranian civil government are also disingenuously claiming that the Taliban are distinct from al-Qaida and Daesh. Ayatollah Safi has sided with Hezbollah and criticised the so-called “international community,” implicitly including Iran’s so-called “friends” Russia and China, for being willing to negotiate with and recognise the new Taliban-run regime in Kabul. Any party that is willing to tolerate the Taliban will soon receive a rude awakening, in my view. Russia and China, to not mention India, will soon face regrets, once the Taliban begin sponsoring terrorism abroad.

I think even Iran is cautious with its word because the same reason I mentioned above, as they may turn against turn from the east and the isis from the west, instead of directing attacking Iran.

These methods that I mentioned about Iran, Russia and China, could be create big problems for these countries, as it will cost them ammunition. Which is why they didn't destroy Taliban when they could've if they wanted to.

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1 hour ago, Meedy said:

Unfortunately they're still the same. They're always be the same. They'll never change.

They're being taken down the flags of Shia. They just act for the world that they're changed, respect women etc. It's all act. Their promises are all fake. Why did they target the school which many young girls lost their lives?. The Taliban are barbaric animals. I don't care what sect they follow.

They'll continue their oppression, Look at what they did my town Herat, forcing young girls and widows into marriage, whipping women in public and all other horrific acts.

All of the terrorists have one target which to completely destroy the shia and follower of Ahl Bayet . May God Show Mercy on us.

May God Hasten the Appearance of Imam Mehdi (AJF)

 

Are you referring to the video on this thread where they take down flags? One of the sisters here said it was an old video and also I have seen many people in Afghanistan going on with their mourning undisturbed.

 

What is your opinion of this video posted by one of the brothers/sisters earlier in this thread?

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, lover said:

I‘m wondering about some people here spreading Taliban propaganda that fast. I thought, this would be a Shia website not the comment section of Al Jazeera or a Salafi website. Afghans are getting oppressed by Taliban and people pretend as if nothing has happened or even support the perpetrators of oppression/Dhulm.

I guess that this must be the result of mixing political interests with a pure religion.

 

The unfortunate reality is, that the "resistance" supporters and "anti-zionists" on this site are neo-marxists, not muslims. Their beliefs and support for terrorism and oppression goes against everything that Islam and the ahlul bayt stands for.

These neo-marxists are obsessed with US and Israel and blames all the world's woes on them.

Sadly, as long as Pakistan and Iran continues to meddle in Afghanistan's affairs, the afghan people will be miserable. I truly feel sad for all afghan people, no matter if they're sunni or shia

Edited by Dubilex
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

This is a must watch video, especially for when you are faced with arguments that the Afghan military should have done more:

 

 

I don't think it's so much that all afghan fighters didn't do enough (though many defected and didn't actually fight) as it may have been an issue of the people of the region collectively not doing enough.

Why did the afghan army have such shortages in food, weapons and even soldiers, while the Taliban had no such limitations?  People can blame america for not providing enough rations, but in truth the problem runs much deeper.

Local farmers were paying taxes to the Taliban, farmers were giving them food. when the Taliban troops would be killed, they would just recruit more locals or would bring in foreign fighters. The Taliban had/has a lot of influence and a lot of people backing them. Rather than stopping them, the region and local people supported them. In large part, many people in the region never truly wanted the US to win. 

The speaker made an analogy to fighting against Nazis but even in WWII, the world cared. Where was Russia's mighty army? Where was the EU? Honestly, where was Iran? In truth, many nations either didn't care or opposed the US presence.

And if the region wants the US to fail, and if Afghanistan wants the Taliban to rule, and if global powers don't want to get their hands dirty and would rather the US leave, then the only path forward is for the US to withdraw. 

Change will only come to Afghanistan when Afghanistan is ready for change. Only they have the power to make that change.

Biden made the right decision. We could speculate on how the exit could have been cleaner, but at the end of the day, exiting was the right choice.

Edited by iCenozoic
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Posted (edited)

Can someone tell me why some pro-Iranian people are saying that there is a high chance taliban and Iran are going to become an allies? Can’t find it in the news

Edited by Diaz
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3 hours ago, iCenozoic said:

 

That something that is brewing is called the future. The world's technological revolution that hasn't stopped advancing. We have major hacking wars going on, we have the electric revolution unfolding, we have nuclear fission around the corner, space activities are picking up both commercially and militarily, we have carbon dioxide levels to manage, all the while working through a global pandemic.

Why should America spend any more time in Afghanistan? We have other priorities. 

I mentioned China because they're advancing at a fast pace, in part because they are focusing on internal research and development moreso than trying to "fix" other countries. They've been smart enough to stay out of Afghanistan (and Iraq and Syria). With the exception of china's missions to harvest mineral deposits from Afghanistan. And Afghanistan will likely be better off without foreign forces meddling in their country as well. 

To summarize it all, there are simply bigger fish to fry. And Americans know this. Kansas before Kandahar has significant meaning.

dude - you are arguing with me even though I am agreeing with you. I am glad US is out of Afghanistan. Our only contention is that I dont see Afghanistan falling to the Taliban as much as being given back to them.

416939872_pompeoAGB.jpg.d52b57a0288266f2566a49669d35d1c0.jpg

Pompeo with AGB in 2020.

AGB was known to have planned and executed attacks on American forces in the 2000s. After being captured, he was not killed or rendtioned out but kept in prison and then his release was secured. He was moved to Qatar to negotiate peace which included America's exit strategy.

I am not saying any of this is wrong. I am merely saying Afghanistan didn't collapse but has been given back to the Taliban

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1 hour ago, iCenozoic said:

 

I don't think it's so much that all afghan fighters didn't do enough (though many defected and didn't actually fight) as it may have been an issue of the people of the region collectively not doing enough.

Why did the afghan army have such shortages in food, weapons and even soldiers, while the Taliban had no such limitations?  People can blame america for not providing enough rations, but in truth the problem runs much deeper.

Local farmers were paying taxes to the Taliban, farmers were giving them food. when the Taliban troops would be killed, they would just recruit more locals or would bring in foreign fighters. The Taliban had/has a lot of influence and a lot of people backing them. Rather than stopping them, the region and local people supported them. In large part, many people in the region never truly wanted the US to win. 

The speaker made an analogy to fighting against Nazis but even in WWII, the world cared. Where was Russia's mighty army? Where was the EU? Honestly, where was Iran? In truth, many nations either didn't care or opposed the US presence.

And if the region wants the US to fail, and if Afghanistan wants the Taliban to rule, and if global powers don't want to get their hands dirty and would rather the US leave, then the only path forward is for the US to withdraw. 

Change will only come to Afghanistan when Afghanistan is ready for change. Only they have the power to make that change.

Biden made the right decision. We could speculate on how the exit could have been cleaner, but at the end of the day, exiting was the right choice.

Afghanistan is basically two countries. The cities (Kabul, Herat, Kandahar, etc), major cities and the tribal areas which include the mountains. The government of Afghanistan, prior to their folding, was the government of the cities. The outlying areas and the triabal areas (most of Afghanistan in terms of area) was controlled by the Talban and their allies (the warlords) even prior to the folding of last Sunday. The government of Afghanistan, and the US Govt knew that the Afghan didn't have control of these areas and I guess they figured that if this is still the situation after 20 years, there is no point in going forward trying to control those areas, so they gave up. They thought that they could hold the cities, and the rest of the country would go to Taliban. They miscalculated (either mistakenly or deliberately) the overall strength of the Taliban, so this is why the Taliban took control. 

What I am thinking will happen is that, in the next years or so you will see resistance groups to the Taliban form in the cities. They will engage them in Urban warfare (street to street fighting) and then you may be in a situation where Afghanistan has 2 governments, one for the cities and one for the rest of the country and a long civil war will happen. This is just one possibility but one that I think is more than 50% likely. 

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Many posts and videos show what seems to be a "tolerant" Taliban, with them respecting the Shias, attending their majalis and apparently not oppressing them.

I have only one thing to say: only time will tell if they stay with this attitude before they turn back to their old ways. Because this obviously wasn't the way they acted 20 years ago.

If they changed (which I highly, HIGHLY doubt), then alhamdulillah. But if they are the same as before (which very probably is the case) and are only acting as angels before they show yet again their terroristic nature, then don't be surprised.

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1 hour ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Who said that?

They are normal ppl, supporters of the axis of resistance. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Diaz said:

Can someone tell me why some pro-Iranian people are saying that there is a high chance taliban and Iran are going to become an allies? Can’t find it in the news

The iranian regime has outright said that they look forward to cooperating with the taliban regime. Both sunni and shias are entering a dark age where they have to live under the yoke of political islamism

It's pretty obvious by now that the supporters of the "resistance axis" are neo-marxists disguising themselves as muslims.

After the failure of socialism in the middle east, the revolutionary marxists had to find another outlet through which to impose their destructive ideas on people. Thus, you have political islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood and the Iranian regime

Edited by Dubilex
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20 minutes ago, Dubilex said:

The iranian regime has outright said that they look forward to cooperating with the taliban regime. Both sunni and shias are entering a dark age where they have to live under the yoke of political islamism

It's pretty obvious by now that the supporters of the "resistance axis" are neo-marxists disguising themselves as muslims.

After the failure of socialism in the middle east, the revolutionary marxists had to find another outlet through which to impose their destructive ideas on people. Thus, you have political islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood and the Iranian regime

I don’t want to get involved in this brother, I just want to know if Iran are willing to become taliban’s allies. If anyone can refute it or has a prove, please link it to be. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

dude - you are arguing with me even though I am agreeing with you. I am glad US is out of Afghanistan. Our only contention is that I dont see Afghanistan falling to the Taliban as much as being given back to them.

416939872_pompeoAGB.jpg.d52b57a0288266f2566a49669d35d1c0.jpg

Pompeo with AGB in 2020.

AGB was known to have planned and executed attacks on American forces in the 2000s. After being captured, he was not killed or rendtioned out but kept in prison and then his release was secured. He was moved to Qatar to negotiate peace which included America's exit strategy.

I am not saying any of this is wrong. I am merely saying Afghanistan didn't collapse but has been given back to the Taliban

America doesn't really have a choice but to leave the country in whoever's hands are available to take it. It's not like the US can give it to Russia or Iran. The artificial president that America gave it to, as of last week has fled. The US backed government can no longer even lead the country because it is essentially gone. And so naturally it will look like the US is giving it to the Taliban because in truth there is no one other than the Taliban to receive it.

The original plan was for the government to last longer than the US withdrawal (and ideally to last forever, however unreasonable this may seem in hindsight). But the security forces fell faster than anyone predicted and has turned into a major embarrassment for the US.

With that said, the best the US can do is say "ok, if you will be the leaders of this land, let's make an agreement that you will stop radicals from attacking us from out of your country, and if you don't, then we will return". That's basically how that agreement works. And best to make that agreement, rather than to let such an opportunity go.

It's best to try to negotiate, while you have the opportunity. And in response, the Taliban allegedly will now have women's schools as well (though some doubt any real change will come about).

To say that the US didn't want its own installed government to succeed is unreasonable because we put them there, spent trillions for their food, salary, rations, shelters, weapons and ammo etc., and they held our own values much more than the Taliban, and long term would serve to be much more valued allies than the Taliban. But in truth, the US doesn't have a choice but to accept the naturally dominant force in the land. And that's why it's so contentious. Because as everyone has said across the world, America has truly failed in it's mission. It wasn't some covert plan all along just to keep the Taliban in control. But rather, the Taliban simply won the fight. And so the world has no choice but to acknowledge that, hate it or love it.

And that's why I think people struggle so much to accept this reality. That the Taliban, however corrupt and sinful and terrible their leadership may be, are locally and regionally supported and dominant in Afghanistan, and further, to think that arguably the strongest military in the world failed. The truth is so ugly that some would rather not believe it to be true. But it is.

Although I would just add the caveat that pawns have a lot more to lose in the failed calculations of kings, than the king's themselves. America made an effort to remove a dangerous Taliban government and it just didn't work out.

Edited by iCenozoic
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2 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Many posts and videos show what seems to be a "tolerant" Taliban, with them respecting the Shias, attending their majalis and apparently not oppressing them.

I have only one thing to say: only time will tell if they stay with this attitude before they turn back to their old ways. Because this obviously wasn't the way they acted 20 years ago.

If they changed (which I highly, HIGHLY doubt), then alhamdulillah. But if they are the same as before (which very probably is the case) and are only acting as angels before they show yet again their terroristic nature, then don't be surprised.

Most likely they are doing this because they don't want to have sanctions slapped on them by the US / EU / etc. What the Salafi / Takfiri groups are doing now in places like Pakistan is that they are doing 'small scale' massacres. They are going into a town and targeting a family or small group, killing all of them so that there are no witnesses and no video evidence. These stories make news in the local community and maybe the region, but if there is no video attached to it, most likely it won't go 'viral' and they can fly below the radar of the international community. 

I think the days of mass beheadings on camera are over. ISIS learned that this, while accomplishing their goal of spreading terror in the community, brings too much 'heat' on them from the International community thus they cannot accomplish their goals of taking and maintaining territory. You will probably see Taliban 2.0 emerge, which is the same Taliban, same Ideology, same hatred and violence toward minorities and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), but their tactics will change, now that they are a government. They will get much more focused on how they look in the International Media vs the past, i.e. 'Damage Control', 'Image Management'. 

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On 8/17/2021 at 1:42 PM, iCenozoic said:

 America doesn't really have a choice but to give it back to whomever is available to take it. It's not like the US can give it to Russia or Iran. The artificial president that America gave it to, as of last week has fled. The US backed government can no longer even receive the country from the US. And so naturally it will look like the US is giving it to the Taliban because in truth there is no one other than the Taliban to receive it.

The original plan was for the government to last longer than the US withdrawal (and ideally to last forever, however unreasonable this may seem in hindsight). But the security forces fell faster than anyone predicted and has turned into a major embarrassment for the US.

With that said, the best the US can do is say "ok, if you will be the leaders of this land, let's make an agreement that you will stop radicals from attacking us from out of your country, and if you don't, then we will return". That's basically how that agreement works. And best to make that agreement, rather than to let such an opportunity go.

It's best to try to negotiate, while you have the opportunity. And in response, the Taliban allegedly will now have women's schools as well (though some doubt any real change will come about).

Still agreeing with you that this was the best choice America had.

On 8/17/2021 at 1:42 PM, iCenozoic said:

To say that the US didn't want its own installed government to succeed is unreasonable because we put them there, spent trillions for their food, salary, rations, shelters, weapons and ammo etc., and they held our own values much more than the Taliban, and long term would serve to be much more valued allies than the Taliban. But in truth, the US doesn't have a choice but to accept the naturally dominant force in the land. And that's why it's so contentious. Because as everyone has said across the world, America has truly failed in it's mission. It wasn't some covert plan all along just to keep the Taliban in control. But rather, the Taliban simply won the fight. And so the world has no choice but to acknowledge that, hate it or love it.

America had a watch, Taliban had time.

On 8/17/2021 at 1:42 PM, iCenozoic said:

And that's why I think people struggle so much to accept this reality. That the Taliban, however corrupt and sinful and terrible their leadership may be, are locally and regionally supported and dominant in Afghanistan, and further, to think that arguably the strongest military in the world failed. The truth is so ugly that some would rather not believe it to be true. But it is.

Still agreeing with you.

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8 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Most likely they are doing this because they don't want to have sanctions slapped on them by the US / EU / etc. What the Salafi / Takfiri groups are doing now in places like Pakistan is that they are doing 'small scale' massacres. They are going into a town and targeting a family or small group, killing all of them so that there are no witnesses and no video evidence. These stories make news in the local community and maybe the region, but if there is no video attached to it, most likely it won't go 'viral' and they can fly below the radar of the international community. 

I think the days of mass beheadings on camera are over. ISIS learned that this, while accomplishing their goal of spreading terror in the community, brings too much 'heat' on them from the International community thus they cannot accomplish their goals of taking and maintaining territory. You will probably see Taliban 2.0 emerge, which is the same Taliban, same Ideology, same hatred and violence toward minorities and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), but their tactics will change, now that they are a government. They will get much more focused on how they look in the International Media vs the past, i.e. 'Damage Control', 'Image Management'. 

Agree with you 100%.

I don't buy the "nice taliban" routine at all. 

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