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In the Name of God بسم الله

12 immaculate imams and contradictions

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Guest I want to be a Shia

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Guest I want to be a Shia

Greetings,

My name is Jeremiah and I currently live in the state of New Jersey in the United States. I have become interested in Shia Islam Alhamdulillah but a major obstacle has come up during my research into the Shia path and I really hope in Sha Allah that someone on here can provide me with the reasonable and truthful answers. I have already emailed a few others about this but they never contacted me back sadly but I will not give up hope.

Ok, During my research about the 12 immaculate Imams I came across a forum called forum.*************. The topic I saw was about the 12 imams and contradictions. Here's the title and message from a sunni muslim named Farid on the forum: 

Contradictions of the Imams
« on: November 24, 2017, 02:43:34 AM »
One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.

1) Maghrib

In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:

1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.

Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.

What excuse do Shias have for this?

Edit: Fixed typo in last sentence.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 02:49:49 AM by Farid »
 
Now, I see no real contradiction in what the two Imams ruled. First of all if the redness is still in the sky then obviously the sun is still around because the clouds and sky does not light it's self. If there is redness then the sun has not disappeared, it's just down really low.
 
However according to Farid and at least a few others there are many contradictions in the rulings on aqeedah and fiqhi by the 12 immaculate Imams. There are a few opinions as to why the 12 Imams contradict each other so much: Some have said that there's alot of taqiyyah in the hadiths. Some said their different rulings are according to time, event and situation. My theory is that the hadiths were not written down for a long time and the narrators or others made mistakes and didn't remember everything one hundred percent.
 
There are many contradictions in the authentic hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad but that does not mean the Prophet made mistakes just like the 12 imams did not make mistakes in their rulings. We must remember that Allah only promised to protect the Quran from mistakes and change, he never promised to protect the hadiths from mistakes.
 
I really want to embrace Shia Islam in sha Allah because I feel there's something special and true about the Shia path. Every time I see a picture or watch a tv program of a Ayatollah like Khomeini or other Ayatollahs i feel like they really are special and guided by Allah  but i can't embrace Shia until I get the correct and truthful answers as to why the perfect, immaculate Imams contradict each other so much in the hadiths.
 
So I have a few questions: Is it true that the 12 Imams contradict each other alot in the hadiths? What is the correct and truthful reason why the Imams contradict each other so much? Is my theory correct? or is it because of Taqiyyah? or is it because of time, event and situations? Or is it a combination of all those reasons? There has to be a truthful and logical answer.

 

What does the Shia hadith scholars say about the contradictions?
 
Thank You
 
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10 hours ago, Guest I want to be a Shia said:

Maghrib

In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:

1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.

Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time

Salamun Alaikum Brother!

The second hadith precisely elaborates the first one. I hope that you have not seen the sun when redness of the east disappear. It is rather a sign that the Sun is set now.

For breaking the fast, we have a verse in Quran which clearly mentions this:

ثُمَّ أَتِمُّواْ الصِّيَامَ إِلَى الَّليْلِ

2:187) and then resume fasting until nightfall

This إِلَى الَّليْلِ is precisely arrive when you finish up the Maghrib prayers. So all the Shia's break their fasts after offering the Maghrib prayers. 

I hope the matter is now clear to you.

Wassalam!

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The forum you linked to has it's name censored - perhaps it's a blatant anti shia hate website with "Twelver" in it's name?

Anyways - the above posters have a strong bias towards rejecting Twelver beliefs and promoting a Mutazali aqeedah, sunni fiqh "shiaism" called Zaydism. You might want to stay neutral for the time being before choosing sides.

Here are a few introductory Twelver books that you might want to look into:

A Restatement of the History of Islam and Muslims

A Shiite Encyclopedia

The I Was Guided

Before all of this, however, get all the English commentaries of the Quran you can collect, from as many schools as possible, and see which ones do the best job of explaining apparent contradictions and unclear verses.

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10 hours ago, Guest I want to be a Shia said:

There are many contradictions in the authentic hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad but that does not mean the Prophet made mistakes just like the 12 imams did not make mistakes in their rulings

If you really study their creed, you will come to know that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did mistakes (according to them), infact many mistakes. 

 

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10 hours ago, Guest I want to be a Shia said:

So I have a few questions: Is it true that the 12 Imams contradict each other alot in the hadiths? What is the correct and truthful reason why the Imams contradict each other so much? Is my theory correct? or is it because of Taqiyyah?

The main reason of contradiction in rulings, is Taqaiyyah of course.

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8 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

promoting a Mutazali aqeedah, sunni fiqh "shiaism" called Zaydism.

You are rejecting a creed that you have misunderstood, how ignorant of you. 

We were the teachers of the Mu'tazilah, and similarities in fiqh are now indictive of following Sunnis? 

Whose fiqh are you referring to?

Is it the the fiqh of Imam Qasim ar-Rassi?

Is it the fiqh of Imam Nasr?

Is it the fiqh of Imam Yahya?

Is it the fiqh of Imam Zayd?

Weren't the Hanafis and Mu'tazilah students of the Zaidiyyah? Is it our fault that they were heavily influenced by us? 

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10 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

You are rejecting a creed that you have misunderstood, how ignorant of you. 

In fact, people rejected Zaidiyyah throughout the history. A vast  majority cling to the purified Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) who are the Ulil Amr according to Qur'an.

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Just now, Cool said:

In fact, people rejected Zaidiyyah throughout the history. A vast  majority cling to the purified Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) who are the Ulil Amr according to Qur'an.

Who are these 'people' as you know 'people' rejected Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) too.

Do you know who accepted the Zaidiyyah the sons of those Imams you claim to follow who are free from your misattributions to them.

 

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4 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Who are these 'people' as you know 'people' rejected Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) too.

It is apparent, your creed is still rejected. Even the descendants of Zayd Shaheed reject your creed. And I am one of them.

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

I am one of them.

This isn't something to be proud of lol, it's not like you understood Zaidiyyah and rejected it.

5 minutes ago, Cool said:

your creed is still rejected.

Everything is 'still rejected' if you mean by minority and majority, you were once a minority and we were the majority. By that logic, was the Zaydi creed the right creed to follow when it was a majority? 

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12 hours ago, Guest I want to be a Shia said:
So I have a few questions: Is it true that the 12 Imams contradict each other alot in the hadiths? What is the correct and truthful reason why the Imams contradict each other so much? Is my theory correct? or is it because of Taqiyyah? or is it because of time, event and situations? Or is it a combination of all those reasons? There has to be a truthful and logical answer.

 

What does the Shia hadith scholars say about the contradictions?
 

Hi , There is no contradition  between them but in other hand there is multiple translations & interpretation  from their hadiths so everyone  must find evidence  of in holy Quran or reject it also  original hadiths are in Arabic which in different  situations and events have been translated  by different  persons which vicious anti shia websites  have been  cherrypicked a part of hadith  or mistranslated for mockery  of Shia & creating  illusions  about contradictions so for true translation  you must use reliable translation  sites likewise   https://www.al-islam.org  or hadiths https://hadith.academyofislam.com , by the same token sites of Marjas likewise  

https://www.sistani.org  or https://makarem.ir or https://www.leader.ir/en

https://www.al-islam.org/strife-free-dialogue-step-towards-understanding-dr-isam-al-imad/stage-1-there-no-association-between#outcome-extending-concept-extremism

Quote

In another hadith of Imam Sadegh (عليه السلام) from the saying of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) it is stated: So take what agrees with the Qur'an and leave what contradicts the Qur'an
It is stated in the Sahih of Ibn Abi Yafur that he was present in the Majlis of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) and asked him for a solution to the dispute over the hadiths; Hadiths that some of their narrators are trustworthy and some are not reliable. The Imam said: "When a hadith came to you and you found evidence of it from the Qur'an or the words of the Messenger of God (peace be upon him), it is true, otherwise it will be only useful to bringer ."
It is also mentioned in the Sahih of Ayyub Ibn Harr that I heard Imam Sadigh (عليه السلام) say: "Everything should be referred to the Qur'an and Sunnah, and any hadith that does not agree with the Qur'an is a good lie."

http://ensani.ir/fa/article/70293/مقصود-از-موافقت-و-مخالفت-حدیث-با-قرآن-در-روایات-عرض

 

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10 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

The forum you linked to has it's name censored - perhaps it's a blatant anti shia hate website with "Twelver" in it's name?

 

Anyways - the above posters have a strong bias towards rejecting Twelver beliefs and promoting a Mutazali aqeedah, sunni fiqh "shiaism" called Zaydism. You might want to stay neutral for the time being before choosing sides.

Here are a few introductory Twelver books that you might want to look into:

A Restatement of the History of Islam and Muslims

A Shiite Encyclopedia

The I Was Guided

 

Before all of this, however, get all the English commentaries of the Quran you can collect, from as many schools as possible, and see which ones do the best job of explaining apparent contradictions and unclear verses.

 

 

 

 From what I saw on that site it's a Shia site but there are Sunnis on that site as well. Thanks for the books..I will look into them.

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

The main reason of contradiction in rulings, is Taqaiyyah of course.

I had a feeling taqaiyyah might have something to do with it. Shias have been subject to persecution since the beginning.

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi , There is no contradition  between them but in other hand there is multiple translations & interpretation  from their hadiths so everyone  must find evidence  of in holy Quran or reject it also  original hadiths are in Arabic which in different  situations and events have been translated  by different  persons which vicious anti shia websites  have been  cherrypicked a part of hadith  or mistranslated for mockery  of Shia & creating  illusions  about contradictions so for true translation  you must use reliable translation  sites likewise   https://www.al-islam.org  or hadiths https://hadith.academyofislam.com , by the same token sites of Marjas likewise  

https://www.sistani.org  or https://makarem.ir or https://www.leader.ir/en

https://www.al-islam.org/strife-free-dialogue-step-towards-understanding-dr-isam-al-imad/stage-1-there-no-association-between#outcome-extending-concept-extremism

http://ensani.ir/fa/article/70293/مقصود-از-موافقت-و-مخالفت-حدیث-با-قرآن-در-روایات-عرض

 

Thanks for your response. I had a feeling that the 12 Imams could not be blamed for the so called contradictions. I read somewhere that the narrators might have messed up  in the narrations in the hadiths as well. Thanks for the links..I will look into them.

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10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You are rejecting a creed that you have misunderstood, how ignorant of you. 

We were the teachers of the Mu'tazilah, and similarities in fiqh are now indictive of following Sunnis? 

Whose fiqh are you referring to?

Is it the the fiqh of Imam Qasim ar-Rassi?

Is it the fiqh of Imam Nasr?

Is it the fiqh of Imam Yahya?

Is it the fiqh of Imam Zayd?

Weren't the Hanafis and Mu'tazilah students of the Zaidiyyah? Is it our fault that they were heavily influenced by us? 

Thanks for your original response to my post. I will look into Zaidism as well but my heart seems to directing me more toward the Twelver Shia

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8 hours ago, Guest I want to be a Shia said:

Thanks for your original response to my post. I will look into Zaidism as well but my heart seems to directing me more toward the Twelver Shia

At your service my dear brother, I am sorry that it was deleted. If you need any help with resources/material feel free to E-Mail me at:

Halifulquran@gmail.com

Remember Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) establishes His evidences through the intellect not the heart. Keep this important thing in mind, we (Zaydiyyah) and twelvers claim to follow the Ahlulbayt, therefore, it is reasonable to ask that both sects prove their understanding of Imamate to the truth seeker who is neither Zaydi, nor twelver. As you may know everyone has Hadiths in their works that vindicate their creed, but of course such circular reasoning will lead us all no where. Furthermore, even if you look at their Hadiths which are particular to them you will see that even their close companions and relatives (of the Imams) were ignorant of this 12 Imams designation. 

It is very simple, ask a twelver to bring you proof of the designation of the Imams after Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) and watch them go into panic mode, furthermore, ask them to show you the practical guidance of the twelfth Imam, they'll start bringing verses left and write and feeding them a mystical interpretation. They have this presupposition that since you subscribe to the Imamate of the members of the cloak you're automatically a twelver, Insha'Allah in due time if you follow through with our past and - Insha'Allah - future discussions you will see the ocean of matters that they've taken for granted.

Finally, do not let their numbers, emotional rhetoric, and semantics blind your eyes from the truth. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not bare a soul farther than it can handle. Do you really think the Most Merciful would have us believing in an Imam who nobody has seen, gained insight from, and above all not even been designated by the Prophet himself?

Here is the material that I recommend starting off with incase you missed it:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/6b043d6c-6d62-4f64-9891-f5c37a36a729/downloads/Sublime Answers.pdf?ver=1613893403765

 

 

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An even better question: would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) leave the people of Earth without a living Imam/Hujjah ? In other words: is it logical that right now, in the 21st century, there isn't an Imam living among us ?

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Guest Psychological Warfare
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From what I saw on that site it's a Shia site 

Psychological Warfare has been going on for 1400 years. They propped up new sects within Shia to destabilize / Distract/ Cause Doubts/ Confusion among the followers of the Imam(عليه السلام) in many periods. They would start rumors and have people attest to an alternative claim, a person may have just fought for some injustice, and never claimed Imamate, but the government will see it fit to manufacture this narrative to divide and conquer. Some were hoodwinked some saw it as an opportunity to align with that movement or support it as it serves the purpose, enemy of the enemy my friends thing is not new. 

So, some of these sects with inconsistent fundamentals were the outcome of government sponsored proxies within the main body. 

Today is no different, best way for them to misguide Shia is to claim they are one, name the site, or use shia names to fool the layman, or agree with most to build rapport and undermine from within. 

So, be careful. 

Now as the title "The Divine Leadership (Imamat)" should imply, NO Inconsistencies , so there must be other reasons and the enemy will attack as they are weak, and misguide like in Battle of Siffin. The spiritual  progeny of those at Siffin are still very active, and they will have the same end. 

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/divine-leadership

just as an fyi - Some of these call their fallible Jurists/Scholars of Fiqh/ or Political kings as their 'Imams" . 

Look into Faith before Fiqh .  Divine Representatives do what they are commanded to do in different circumstances. We don't question them, these guys who follow the fallible or past leaders who had doubts in their leader follow their sunnah. 

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6 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Remember Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) establishes His evidences through the intellect not the heart.

The statement above is completely against the verses of Quran.

 

بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ ۚ وَمَا يَجْحَدُ بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَّا الظَّالِمُونَ {49}

[Shakir 29:49] Nay! these are clear communications in the breasts of those who are granted knowledge; and none deny Our communications except the unjust.

فَمَنْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَنْ يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُرِدْ أَنْ يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {125}

[Shakir 6:125] Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.

أَفَمَنْ شَرَحَ اللَّهُ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ فَهُوَ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۚ فَوَيْلٌ لِلْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ مِنْ ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُبِينٍ {22}

[Shakir 39:22] What! is he whose heart Allah has opened for Islam so that he is in a light from his Lord (like the hard-hearted)? Nay, woe to those whose hearts are hard against the remembrance of Allah; those are in clear error.

لَمْ نَشْرَحْ لَكَ صَدْرَكَ {1}

[Shakir 94:1] Have We not expanded for you your breast,

وَكُلًّا نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ أَنْبَاءِ الرُّسُلِ مَا نُثَبِّتُ بِهِ فُؤَادَكَ ۚ وَجَاءَكَ فِي هَٰذِهِ الْحَقُّ وَمَوْعِظَةٌ وَذِكْرَىٰ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ {120}

[Shakir 11:120] And all we relate to you of the accounts of the messengers is to strengthen your heart therewith; and in this has come to you the truth and an admonition, and a reminder to the believers.

مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ {11}

[Shakir 53:11] The heart was not untrue in (making him see) what he saw.

 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) describes the heart as Sadr, Qalb and Fu'ad.

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On 7/4/2021 at 6:22 AM, Sabrejet said:

 

Before all of this, however, get all the English commentaries of the Quran you can collect, from as many schools as possible, and see which ones do the best job of explaining apparent contradictions and unclear verses.

Excellent point. I would just add start with the verses that are clear and see if anyone's teachings contradict those verses before moving on to the above posters advice.

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Guest Psychological Warfare

Protest against the Tragedy of Thursday- We should not get trapped into Book is Sufficient marketing. It is easy to loose sight as they will implicitly steer in that direction. 

Quote

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

* The Itrat(Progeny)/Ahlul Bayt is not the Non Shia version. ( Fallible Jurists/political Leaders). 

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