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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunni say that the story of Hazrat Narjis (a) is a fabrication. ?

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Assalamu aleykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh brothers and sisters

a Sunni told me that Imam Hassan al Askari (عليه السلام) never had a son because Hazrat Narjis (a) never existed. He said it's a fabrication, because of a chain/narrators problem that we have. 

Is that true that there is a chain/narrators problem? Or do we have Sahih Hadith about the existence of Hazrat Narjis (a)? 

Thank you and May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you. 

 

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Salam her grave besides of  Imam Hassan al Askari (عليه السلام) is available in Samara , Iraq which doesn't need verification by chain/narrators  also disagreement  in chains about her birthplace & name not about her existance .

Her Nationality

The first narration about her nationality goes back to 286/899. Al-Shaykh al-Saduq is the first scholar who brought up this topic. According to this narration, she was a Christian from Roman Empire who was captured by Muslims. Nakhkhas –one of the companions of Imam al-Hadi (a)- bought her from the slave market in Baghdad and sent her to Imam al-Hadi (a) in Samarra.

However, this narration loses its authenticity afterward and looks more like a fairy tale. It continues that the mother of twelfth Imam was Malika bt. Yusha' the grand-daughter of Caesar from his daughter, and her mother was a descendant of Simon, the disciple of Jesus (a). When Malika was in his grand-father's palace, she dreamed lady Mary (a), Jesus's mother, and Lady Fatima (a), the Prophet's (s) daughter. Lady Fatima (a) invited her to embrace Islam and convinced her to let herself to be captured by Muslims.[8]

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Criticism of this Hadith

Authenticity of this narration have been questioned from several aspects. The most dubious point is the last part. First, there was no major conflict between Abbasid and Romans after 242/856-857 and there is no report in the sources that the Roman Emperor asked Abbasid to free her grand-daughter.

Second, early authors such as al-QummiNawbakhtial-Kulayni and al-Mas'udi who were contemporaries of al-Shaybani - the narrator of the hadith - did not mention this hadith in their works. Also, al-Kashshi, who was acquainted with al-Shaybani, asserts that he was from Ghulat.

Third, al-Kulayni reported that Imam al-Mahdi's (a) mother was a slave woman from Nawba, northern province of Sudan.[9]

Additionally, al-Nu'mani and al-Saduq have narrated other hadiths which say that she was a black slave woman.[10]

But why later Shi'a scholars ignored these hadiths and believed that al-Shaybani's hadith is authentic? It is possible that it was because his hadith implies that Imam al-Mahdi's (a) mother was from a noble family with a high social rank. Also, the relation between Imam al-Mahdi (a) and Jesus (a) in this hadith fascinated them, because there are some hadiths from the Prophet (s) which imply that they both rise up together and save the world from injustice and tyranny.

According to the three previously mentioned points, one can reject al-Shaybani's hadith; although al-Shaykh al-Tusi and Ibn Rustam al-Tabari authenticated it.

Apparently, al-Shaykh al-Mufid has narrated a sahih hadith about the mother of Imam al-Mahdi (a). He narrated: "she was a slave women who was brought up in the house of HakimaImam al-Hadi's sister, and when Imam (a) saw her face, foretold that she will bear a child by the special blessing of God."

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Narjis_(a)

First, there was no major conflict between Abbasid and Romans after 242/856-857 and there is no report in the sources that the Roman Emperor asked Abbasid to free her grand-daughte

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In response, it should be said: There were several wars between Muslims and Romans at that time, which led to the captivity of soldiers, military commanders, aristocrats, church clergy and Roman princes; Examples of these conflicts can be found in many history books (13).
Tabari writes: "The peak of these wars is in the years 248-245 AH. In 245 A.D., the Romans invaded the city of Samisat, killing about five hundred and capturing others. "But the war eventually ended with the capture of the commander of the Roman army, and the Roman emperor agreed for releasing  of the commander of his army to free a thousand Muslim captives." [14]
Ibn Athir also writes in his historical book: "In 247 AH, wars broke out between the Muslims and the Romans, and the Muslims won many spoils. "In 248 A.D., the Muslim general fought the Romans, during which many Roman nobles were captured." He also writes: "In the battle of Amouri, when Mutasim Abbasi invaded Rome, a number of Roman clerics and princes were captured." [15] according  to this story it is possible that the roman princess who  Imam Mahdi  has been born  was among those captives.

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?typeinfo=44&lid=0&mid=406927&catid=27870

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Another problem is hadith which say Narjis showed no signs of pregnancy.

And the only witness to the birth was Hakima.

There are many problems around the existence of the 12th Imam.

 

 

 

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The whole story about her being roman isnt even logic and cant be true..

First of all there didnt exist any war between arabs and romans. The first war between romans and muslims was with the ottomans.. 

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As for the mother of the Imam, its a little difficult to her exact story. On the other hand, Some sunni scholars agreed that someone named Muhammad (a son to Al Askari (صلوات الله عليه)) was born.

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17 minutes ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

 sunni scholars agreed that someone named Muhammad (a son to Al Askari (صلوات الله عليه)) was born.

Source? 

This not only contradicts your traditional narrative of his “birth” being concealed, but I’m sure that these scholars were quoting what you believe. 

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16 hours ago, Dutchzahra said:

a Sunni told me that Imam Hassan al Askari (عليه السلام) never had a son

This is correct 

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13 minutes ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

Sunni books btw, their scholars did say Al Askari (عليه السلام) had a son.

Here is another for good luck.

1

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49 minutes ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

Sunni books btw, their scholars did say Al Askari (عليه السلام) had a son.

image.thumb.png.bb8e93a76812b3cc8f3112aaaa9cdd89.png

unknown.png

As I said, they’re mentioning what the twelvers believe. It is quite illogical to presume that they genuinely believe the Mahdi was born and express such a view within their works, and afterwards go on to adopt a creed that believes in his non-existence. Furthermore, it goes against your traditions which mention that no one has seen the Imam. It is that simple. 

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

As I said, they’re mentioning what the twelvers believe. It is quite illogical to presume that they genuinely believe the Mahdi was born and express such a view within their works, and afterwards go on to adopt a creed that believes in his non-existence. Furthermore, it goes against your traditions which mention that no one has seen the Imam. It is that simple. 

Point out in which part do they specifically mention, "We are just rehashing Twelver beliefs". The burden of proof, in this case, is on you, not us.

The truth is, there have been a few sunni scholars throughout history that have, in fact affirmed that Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام)) had a son - this is something that even my informed sunni friends have affirmed, that there is an opposing view within their ranks.

This is the first time that I've seen someone blatantly denied that the opposing view exists in their ranks at all.

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5 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Point out in which part do they specifically mention, "We are just rehashing Twelver beliefs". The burden of proof, in this case, is on you, not us.

The truth is, there have been a few sunni scholars throughout history that have, in fact affirmed that Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام)) had a son - this is something that even my informed sunni friends have affirmed, that there is an opposing view within their ranks.

This is the first time that I've seen someone blatantly denied that the opposing view exists in their ranks at all.

You guys keep making claims, and somehow have the audacity to ask us to prove the non-existence of the non-existent claim you are making?

'I am going to make a non-existent statement, prove to me that this statement does not exist'.

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2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

It is quite illogical to presume that they genuinely believe the Mahdi was born and express such a view within their works, and afterwards go on to adopt a creed that believes in his non-existence. Furthermore, it goes against your traditions which mention that no one has seen the Imam. It is that simple. 

It is infact very logical to accept that the Imam Hassan Al-Askari had a son named "Muhammad". 

Sunni's don't accept 11 shi'i Imams as 11 caliphs, so they don't accept the figure which Shia believes as their 12th Imam, the Mehdi ajtf. 

According to Sunni's, there is no consensus on who are the 12 caliphs. Their counting just comes to an end on Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), some even include Muawiyah in it.

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Just now, Cool said:

It is infact very logical to accept that the Imam Hassan Al-Askari had a son named "Muhammad". 

Sunni's don't accept 11 shi'i Imams as 11 caliphs, so they don't accept the figure which Shia believes as their 12th Imam, the Mehdi ajtf. 

According to Sunni's, there is no consensus on who are the 12 caliphs. Their counting just comes to an end on Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), some even include Muawiyah in it.

Once again, you - deliberately? - ignore what I say and go on to pull something from the air and refute it.

In your creed, the 12th Imam has not been seen by anyone, save the select representatives. You are throwing all those traditions away for the sake of having some testimony by a couple of Sunni scholars? And that is if such a testimony exists and you're not choking your dogma into the text, which is a historical text that is restating the beliefs of the sects that it is addressing.

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2 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

your creed, the 12th Imam has not been seen by anyone, save the select representatives

All of your problems, quries, doubts etc are addressed here:

https://www.al-islam.org/al-imam-al-mahdi-just-leader-humanity-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-5-who-was-imam-after-hasan-al#those-who-saw-imam-age-when-he-was-small

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@Cool I actually clicked on the link and went to the relevant sections that address the twelfth Imam, when it comes to Sunni works he only quotes Hadiths that state a man from the Progeny of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) will come at the end times, this isn't something new and we subscribe to this belief.

Furthermore, when addressing the existence of the twelfth Imam he states:

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There are numerous Prophetic traditions about the Mahdi, reported by both the Sunni and the Shi'i sources. Close examination of the contents of these traditions proves that the subject of the future coming of the Mahdi and the Qa'im was a well established tenet during the Prophet's life time. People anticipated someone who would take upon himself to establish truth and spread the worship of God. Moreover, they expected that person to take charge of purifying the earth and instituting justice. The belief was so wide spread among the people that having verified it in principle they were engaged in discussing its details.

Sometimes they would ask: “From which family would the awaited Mahdi arise?” At other times they wanted to know his name and patronymic. Still at other times they wanted to know the reason why he was called the Mahdi. They wanted to know about his revolution and asked about the signs of his appearance. They also wanted to find out if the Mahdi and the Qa'im were one and the same person. They were told about the Mahdi's occultation and wanted to understand the reasons and the obligations of his followers while he was in occultation.

The Prophet also, from time to time, used to inform people about the existence of the Mahdi. He would inform them saying: “Mahdi will be among my descendants. He will be among the sons of Fatima, among the descendants of Husayn.” At other times he would announce his name and patronymic and give information about the signs of his reappearance and other related matters.

He answer the existence of the Mahdi in the end times, which we all believe in as Muslimeen. He doesn't answer the existence of the Mahdi now, because he fundamentally cannot, if there is something I missed from the link please quote it. 

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4 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

I have no queries, no doubts and no problems in recognizing the truth alhamdulillah. 

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2 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

He answer the existence of the Mahdi in the end times,

:hahaha: Let the people read the link and see what you have concluded.

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Sufficient proof was the actions of Abbasid's, which they did with Imam Hassan Askari (عليه السلام)

Searched for his son, searched for any sign of pregnancy within the house of Imam. Imprisoned the ones who displays the signs of pregnancy lol.

What they were searching for? The haqq is as bright as the day light. The one who wishes to find the truth in history, reaches to it. 

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15 minutes ago, Cool said:

Sufficient proof was the actions of Abbasid's

 The Abbasid State and the Imamiyyah

و نروي عن أسلافنا أن الذي أمر بالرواية في الاثني عشر أبو الدوانيق كافة الله تعالى ثم أمر المأمون بالتأليف في هذا المذهب

We have narrated from our Salaf verily the order to narrate the 12 narration was made by Abu Al-Dawaniq (Al-Mansur) then this Madhab (ie Imammiyah) was created by the order of Ma’mun. 
[Imam Al-Mansurbillah Abdullah bin Hamza)

Imam Abdullah bin Hamza stated he never heard of the 12 Imams narration and neither was narrated by his ancestors. 

The Imamis believe it is not permissible to do khuruj before the rise of Imam Al-Mahdi (except Imam Al-Husayn)  so they considered all the uprisings of the Saddat of Hasan and Husayn to be illegitimate to the extent they call Imam Nafs Al-Zakiyyah (ع) as Taghut!

This idea that Imamis was a sect formed by the Abbasids is not far fetched and being attributed to Al-Mamun could be established. If we look at the Khutba delivered when Mamun designated Imam Ali Al-Ridha (ع) when it was said as follows: 
ستة آباء هم ما هم  خير من يشرب صوب الغمام 
which means that the six of your ancestors are the best amongst all the creation.

The evidence for the close association of the Imamis with the Abbasids are found in their own Rijali work and they highlight the position held by their men. We highlight some of the names:-

Hisham bin Al-Hakam

He was amongst the Ashab Al-Ijma and Salaf of the Imamis, he was one of the servant of Yahya bin Khalid Al-Barmaki then he became one of the inner-circle (Khawas) of Harun Al-Abbasi. Mentioned in Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith by Sayyed Al-Khoei. He was their star and brightest Imami scholar who allegedly learnt directly from Imam Ja’far Al-Sadiq (ع).

Isa bin Rawdha 

Al-Najashi said he was the bodyguard of Al-Mansur, a great Mutakalim, he has a book on Imamat, some of their companions (Imamis) said to have seen this book. They have read in some of the books that when Al-Mansur is doubtful (regarding something) he would call upon Isa bin Rawdha who was amongst his Mawla. [Rijal Al-Najashi-294]
This was also narrated by Abdul Husayn Al-Shubastari in Al-Faiq Fi Al-Ashab Imam Al-Sadiq]

It is said by Sayyed Hasan Al-Sadr that he was amongst the Tabieen, Mutaqadin in the area of Kalam and Usul Al-Madhab he was mentioned amongst the earliest authors who established Shiism [Taklimat Amal Al-Aamal: 182/4] 

He was an influential man during the time of Al-Mansur who founded the city of Madinah Al-Salam (ie Baghdad). He was mentioned in the book Tarikh Al-Baghdad written by Ahmad bin Abi Tahir. 

Abbas Iqbal Ashtayani said he was amongst the earliest authors in the matter of Imamah amongst the Imami Mutakalimun

Muhammad bin Ismail bin Yazi’.


He is amongst the narrators of the Principle books of the Imamis. Sheikh Al-Tusi mentioned in Al-Fahrist, Al-Najashi said he was the Mawla (slave) of Abu Mansur, he was amongst the Thiqat, he has many deeds.

Yaqtin bin Musa 


He was with the Abbasid during the battle against Imam Al-Husayn bin Ali Al-Fakhi (ع) (Kitab Akbar Fakh). 

Sheikh Al-Tusi said regarding him: He never shrugged off from his duty towards Al-Saffah, Al-Mansur and he was also a Shii and also his son (Al-Fahrist:155), his son Ali was also close to the ministers of the Abbasids. 

Al-Najashi said it was narrated from Imam Al-Saddiq, that letters were sent from him at that time he was the Wali of Al-Ahwaz before Al-Mansur [Rijal Al-Najashi:213]

Abdullah bin Sinan 

Al-Najashi said he was the treasurer of Al-Mansur, Al-Mahdi, Al-Hadi and Al-Rashid, a Kufi, trustworthy, from their great Companions (Imamis). He has a book called Salat Al-Kabir in it all the Halal and Haram (ie laws) are found [Rijal Al-Najashi:214]

Al-Barqi said he is from the Mawla of Bani Abbas, was the minister of Al-Mahdi, Musa and Harun [Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith: 5/32]

Daud bin Ali Al-Abidi

Sheikh Al-Tusi said he was from the companions of Al-Mahdi [Rijal Al-Tusi:375]

Ali bin Yaqtin bin Musa


He like his father was a companion of Al-Saffah, Abi Ja’far and took part in the battle of Fakh with the Abbasids. 

Sheikh Al-Tussi said he was Thiqat, great status in the Imami school, when he died, his Janazah prayers was led by the crown Prince Muhammad bin Al-Rashid [Al-Fahrist:154] 

His brother Ubayd bin Yaqtin bin Musa was the killer of the Salaf of the Itrah Sulayman bin Abdullah bin Hasan bin Hasan bin Ali (ع). [Akhbar Al-Fakh]. 

We could see how close the Early Imami scholars were with the Abbasid State. One of the famous families who represented Imamis were the Nawbakht family, they occupied high positions in the Abbasid court also documented in their own books. One of the four Deputies of the Hidden Twelve Imams was Al-Husayn Ibn Al-Ruh Al-Nawbakhti, from the Nawbakhti family. There are a lot more examples of their direct participation in the Abbasid Government. 

The Abbasids did not consider them as opponents because they not only failed to support any of the sons of their 12 Imams but also led armies to wage war against them for the Abbasids and they call themselves Shias of Imam Ali.

Harun Al-Abbasi said: 
والله ما بيني وبين الإمامية خلاف فلئن قام إمامهم على الصفة التي ذكروا لأكونن أول من تبعه، وما عدوي وعدو آبائي إلا هؤلاء الزيدية الذين كلما خرج من هؤلاء القوم خارج أصلتوا أسيافهم بين يديه، وتغسلوا وتحنطوا يطلبون الجنة)) [الشافي]

By Allah I have no difference (ikhtilaf) with the Imamiyyah, when their Imams rise with the attributes they mention, I will be the first to follow, and my enemy and the enemy of my ancestors are those Zaydis, whenever someone from amongst them do khuruj, they straighten (or raise) their swords  between their arms, and they wash and embalm with it and they seek Jannah
[Narrated by Imam Abdullah bin Hamza in Al-Shafi]

Complete quote courtesy of:

 https://www.facebook.com/The-Zaydi-Community-281562272636558/?__cft__[0]=AZVQvQzXbYdE9ziEk5_whkYc6bkNcUbP_t_ENitbEpj_UmDYelc3-0rgV2V6wEBEpiTLCMggpZZEvoIE513Gj3IaBnt6n5ilVzbojT6tf4a1zOWw1iihFN9pfdHc6_FLEKioxLbjklsI2u77l8_GQlNTVD-LCmFTxOjJqFVw3uo-IQ&__tn__=-UC%2CP-y-R

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17 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

The Abbasid State and the Imamiyyah

In this entire monologue that's reminiscent of the Ibn Saba myth, where is brother @Cool's point addressed i.e. Abbasid treatment of Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام)) and his forefathers? Why were they scared out of their wits at the possible birth of this son?

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Off-topic, but does @Dutchzahra and @zahralzu have some sort of connection with each other? Their posting patterns are quite similar: sparking a controversial debate, often a challenge to Twelver beliefs, and then contributing nothing to it.

My apologies if I'm mistaken.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Off-topic, but does @Dutchzahra and @zahralzu have some sort of connection with each other? Their posting patterns are quite similar: sparking a controversial debate, often a challenge to Twelver beliefs, and then contributing nothing to it.

My apologies if I'm mistaken.

nope. I come off as 'challenging twelver beliefs', reality is I myself find myself unable to answer to some wahabi shubhas i find online and try to find answers here to bring me back to my rafidhism again, so I know nothing which is why i need answers and can't contribute much, rest is a coincidence ;)

Edited by zahralzu
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4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

this Madhab (ie Imammiyah) was created by the order of Ma’mun. 
[Imam Al-Mansurbillah Abdullah bin Hamza)

:hahaha: Joke of the day!!!

They created the Imamiyah & yet they were needed to poison every Imam? They created the Imamiyyah & yet they were so scared of Imam Askari's son that they imprisoned him & kept a check/intelligence on the expected son of our 11th Imam. 

Surprisingly, they were quite happy with Ja'far al-Kadhab and never checked him. :D

And for the quote of your Imam Al-Mansurbillah, it gives impression that perhaps he believes that Quran is written by Ma'mun. 

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6 hours ago, Cool said:

Sunni's don't accept 11 shi'i Imams as 11 caliphs,

 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Their counting just comes to an end on Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

Can you see that you are contradicting yourself? 

Sunnis do accept Hz. Ali Ibn Abu Talib and Hz. Hassan bin Ali (may Allah be pleased with them both) as Khalifs as they were Khalifs!  Rest of 9 Imams (may Allah be pleased with them all) were never khalifs.  No doubt that they were all great personalities and very respected par excellence scholars of Islam.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

According to Sunni's, there is no consensus on who are the 12 caliphs.

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never named any of the 12 khalifs.

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5 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Can you see that you are contradicting yourself? 

Salam, 

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I mean Sunnis accept Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman & Ali (عليه السلام) unanimously, some add to it the name of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) being the fifth caliph while some add to it name of Muawiyyah as fifth Caliph. 

If you want textual proof of this, I can share it from your books.

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9 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never named any of the 12 khalifs.

You should not have said this. Hadith e Ghadir itself is a great hurdle for you. 

من كنت مولا فهذا علي مولا

 

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22 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam, 

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I mean Sunnis accept Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman & Ali (عليه السلام) unanimously, some add to it the name of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) being the fifth caliph while some add to it name of Muawiyyah as fifth Caliph. 

If you want textual proof of this, I can share it from your books.

Wa 'alaykum salaam, Thanks for clarifying.

20 minutes ago, Cool said:

You should not have said this. Hadith e Ghadir itself is a great hurdle for you. 

من كنت مولا فهذا علي مولا

Hadith e Ghadir is no hurdle for me at all.  Let's not side-track this thread, just to let you know that Sermon 92 of Nahjul Balagha clarifies a lot about  Hadith e Ghadir.

Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand, nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. Sermon 92 Nahjul-balagha

Let's leave it here. 

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Posted (edited)

The topic was about Lady Narjis, now it veered off into another debate regarding Imamate and who are the 12 Imams. If you would like to debate this issue for the x10,00,000 time, please make a seperate topic for it. 

As for the ancestry / ethnicity / lineage of Lady Nargis, most Shia scholars agree that she was of Roman origin and had a royal lineage. There are also some prominent Shia ulema who disagree with this and say that her ancestry / lineage was that she was black African from Ethiopia. So there is no consensus amoung even Shia ulema what her ancestry / lineage / ethnicity was. If is sufficient for us Shia to know that she was a pious lady of Noble ancestry and she represented the best women or her time in terms of deen and aklaq. Whether she was Roman or Ethopian shouldn't make any difference. For those who don't believe that Imam Mehdi(a.f.s) is the son of Imam Hassan Al Askari((عليه السلام)), then the debate about the origins of his mother would be irrelevant to them, so why would they care about whether hadith regarding it are fabricated ? . Thread closed. 

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