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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions about Zaidi beliefs


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On 8/18/2021 at 8:49 PM, Zaidism said:

@Ali bin Hussein I don't see the point of entertaining this discussion, he didn't respect the fact that this is a questions about Zaydi beliefs thread, not a debate Zaydi beliefs thread. If he was considerate enough to start another thread with this topic I would entertain said dialogue. 

He doesn't seem to understand that our entire epistemology differs, hence him being hell bent on winning a point that really makes no difference in terms of his fundamental beliefs which he can't reconcile. 

Why so verbose? Do you get paid by the letter?

I haven't even begun to debate yet. I am trying to understand your beliefs.

Notice in my posts I am always asking about the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) specifically Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and also Ali (عليه السلام), Fatima(عليه السلام), Hassan (عليه السلام), Hussain (عليه السلام) - The 5.

Your verbosity leads me to believe that you are nervous. Don't worry - I will be nice to you. Here is a hug :cuddle:

On 8/18/2021 at 8:49 PM, Zaidism said:

He goes on to say it refers to Usool Al-deen, but makes the blunder of assuming that infallibility is part of his Usool Al-deen when it comes to imamate. 

Duh. It's from the 12er perspective.

We will have so much fun together.

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I am still struggling.

 

It's ok brother take your time.

Angels are free from all error and sin.

Prophets and Ali, Fatima ,Hassan, Hussain free from sins. 

Descendants of Hassan and Hussain are fallible.

Hope this makes it clear. 

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On 8/17/2021 at 10:17 AM, Guest farooq said:

Asalamualaikum brother, I read the beneficial summary and the tasbih for ruku and sujud mentioned there is slightly different to what the general Sunni sects and Shia say in their prayers. Do you have any reference for this ?

Salaam I'll ask someone more knowledgeable and get back to you.

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On 8/21/2021 at 12:23 PM, Ali bin Hussein said:

Angels are free from all error and sin.

Salam , Angels are unable from commiting sins but as intelligent beings they are capable of doing errors  which for example they have had wrong attitude & conclusion about purpose of creation of prophet Adam (عليه السلام) , so consequently , human beings from his children which they just seen dark side of humans which they argued with Allah why he has created humans which spread corruption & bloodshed on earth while they are totally obediant to Allah also as comparison we can compare angels with AI which some people belive It can destroy humanity because likewise angels , the AI will see humans as source of destruction & corruption on earth which AI in similar fashion is unable from doing sins too but  can be more intelligent than humans   by collaboration of all sciences & expriences but on the other hand can reach to wrong & destructive conclusion which human being maybe don't has a secret knowledge for preventing from commiting error by AI but Allah has knew something which was out of reach of Angels , so consequently' Angels had to bow to prophet Adam (عليه السلام) also in Surah of Sabah it has said that Angels will diassociate from people who considered them as superiors to humans specially prophets even worshiped angels but in reality those people has considered Jins as superior & worshiped Jins in disguise of worshiping angels .

Quote

On the day He will muster them all together, He will say to the angels, ‘Was it you that these used to worship?’ (40) They will say, ‘Immaculate are You! You are our wali, not they! No, they used to worship the jinn; most of them had faith in them.’ (41) ‘Today you have no power to benefit or harm one another,’ and We shall say to those who did wrong, ‘Taste the punishment of the Fire which you used to deny.’ (42)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/34:40

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/34:40

Therefore anyone which belives to superiority of Angels likewise superirity of archangels likewise archangle Jibrael (عليه السلام) toward prophets (عليه السلام) especially prophet Muhammad (pbu)  in reality follows footsteps of cursed Shaitan (la) in disguise of superiority of archangels to prophets .

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 they are capable of doing errors  which for example they have had wrong attitude & conclusion 

Asking questions are not the same as errors.

O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are [appointed] angels, harsh and severe; they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded. 66:6

 

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Asking questions are not the same as errors.

Angels hav made wrong coclusion based on their level of knowledge  & expriement   when Allah has created  prophet  Adam (عليه السلام) for future of his offsprings  because  they don't have full access  to ilm al Qaib but on the hand they have been sure there is a reason for creating humans  so they expressed  their concern in form of question  until Allah has showed them the logical  reason to them from his Ilm al Qaib which share of prophets espeially  prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) has been more than angles even archangel Jibrael (عليه السلام) because  im Miraj prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) has ascended to higher place which archangel Jibrael (عليه السلام) never reached to that place & position , so consequently, all infallible  Imams have higher place & position than all angels  because both of Zaidis & 12er have agreement  on this point which all of creation even archangels have created due to existance  of Ahl Kisa & from light of Prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) , Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & lady Fatima (sa) & Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain  (عليه السلام) which in 12er viewpoint  infallible  Imams from progeny of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) are superior to arch angel Jibrael (عليه السلام) as who mentioned as companion  of Ahl Kisa besides them under Yemani cloak  of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) & rest of creations  of Allah.

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On 8/21/2021 at 2:53 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

It's ok brother take your time.

Angels are free from all error and sin.

Prophets and Ali, Fatima ,Hassan, Hussain free from sins. 

Descendants of Hassan and Hussain are fallible.

Hope this makes it clear. 

just another clarifying question - Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ali (عليه السلام), Fatima (عليه السلام), Hasan (عليه السلام), Hussain (عليه السلام) are free from major sins but can do minor sins from a Zaidi perspective, correct?

Please note that I have no coup d'etat moment planned based on your answers. I am only trying to understand the Zaidi belief system.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

just another clarifying question - Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ali (عليه السلام), Fatima (عليه السلام), Hasan (عليه السلام), Hussain (عليه السلام) are free from major sins but can do minor sins from a Zaidi perspective, correct?

 

Hmm I have seen the words major and minor sin used. But we would need to define them before I could give an answer.

I have used the word error and sin. I can explain why  if you would like ?

If you can define major and minor sin I can give a simple answer hopefully.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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On 6/19/2021 at 12:54 AM, Zaidism said:

We believe that they are infallible, however, our belief in infallibility when it comes to the members of the cloak is that they are infallible from committing major sins meaning there is no way whatsoever they can commit such sins and they could commit minor sins, but that is not a proclamation that they do. Furthermore, it is possible that the members of cloak can procrastinate and forget things, again this is not saying that they're forgetful, or avid procrastinators, but it is merely maintaining the possibility. In the same sense an extremely disciplined individual can be said to have the possibility to procrastinate, although far be it from him/them.

@Ali bin Hussein - I am referencing this post from @Zaidism which mentions them being able to commit minor sins...not that they did.

So my subsequent  to you or him would have been to define those. Additionally, I would like to request examples of minor sins by the 5.

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5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

@Ali bin Hussein - I am referencing this post from @Zaidism which mentions them being able to commit minor sins...not that they did.

So my subsequent  to you or him would have been to define those. Additionally, I would like to request examples of minor sins by the 5.

I don't have a complete list of what is a greater and minor sin but I'll post the answer Imam Qassim gives.

" Infallibility, according to us, pertains to the major sins. To them, it pertains to major and minor sins. Our argument is that the prophets, may the blessings of Allah be upon them, are infallible because  

Allah described them as loathing sin. The Exalted says: {so that Allah might show His forgiveness of all thy faults, past as well as future} (Q. 48:2).

He says concerning Moses: {“O my Lord! Verily, I have sinned against myself! Grant me, then, Thy forgiveness!”} (Q. 28:16). 

He says concerning Jonah: {“There‟s no  Allah but You! Glorified be You! Verily I am from the wrongdoers!”} (Q. 21:87).

He says concerning David: {so he asked his Lord to forgive him his sin, fell down in prostration, and turned unto Him in  repentance} (Q. 38:24).

He says concerning Solomon: {We had tried Solomon by placing upon his throne a  [lifeless] body; and thereupon he turned [towards Us]} (Q. 38:34).

He says concerning Adam: {Adam  disobeyed his Lord and erred} (Q. 20:121). 

The reason I asked you was because as far as I know 12er don't count the above examples as sins right ?

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9 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I don't have a complete list of what is a greater and minor sin but I'll post the answer Imam Qassim gives.

" Infallibility, according to us, pertains to the major sins. To them, it pertains to major and minor sins. Our argument is that the prophets, may the blessings of Allah be upon them, are infallible because  

Allah described them as loathing sin. The Exalted says: {so that Allah might show His forgiveness of all thy faults, past as well as future} (Q. 48:2).

He says concerning Moses: {“O my Lord! Verily, I have sinned against myself! Grant me, then, Thy forgiveness!”} (Q. 28:16). 

He says concerning Jonah: {“There‟s no  Allah but You! Glorified be You! Verily I am from the wrongdoers!”} (Q. 21:87).

He says concerning David: {so he asked his Lord to forgive him his sin, fell down in prostration, and turned unto Him in  repentance} (Q. 38:24).

He says concerning Solomon: {We had tried Solomon by placing upon his throne a  [lifeless] body; and thereupon he turned [towards Us]} (Q. 38:34).

He says concerning Adam: {Adam  disobeyed his Lord and erred} (Q. 20:121). 

The reason I asked you was because as far as I know 12er don't count the above examples as sins right ?

 

So this is why I am trying to separate the 5 members of the Cloak from the prophets. 

The 5: we say are sin-free and error-free.

Prophets: sin-free but can make mistakes/errors.

What you've shown above are mistakes they made but necessarily sinning.

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6 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

1) So this is why I am trying to separate the 5 members of the Cloak from the prophets. 

The 5: we say are sin-free and error-free.

Prophets: sin-free but can make mistakes/errors.

2) What you've shown above are mistakes they made but necessarily sinning.

 

 

No from a Zaidi perspective the 5 of the kisa and prophets are the same category of infallible.

It the Imams after Hussain that are fallible.

2) This is why I prefer to use error the definition of minor sin across all schools is a bit of a grey area.

I think 12er and Zaidi agree it's definitely protection from those actions for which punishment are prescribed in this or the next life.

Also in 12er infallibility also crosses over to knowledge of the unseen from simply learned knowledge to complete knowledge.

So I think try to fit Infallibility into one neat box is tricky.

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2 hours ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

No from a Zaidi perspective the 5 of the kisa and prophets are the same category of infallible.

It the Imams after Hussain that are fallible.

2) This is why I prefer to use error the definition of minor sin across all schools is a bit of a grey area.

I think 12er and Zaidi agree it's definitely protection from those actions for which punishment are prescribed in this or the next life.

Also in 12er infallibility also crosses over to knowledge of the unseen from simply learned knowledge to complete knowledge.

So I think try to fit Infallibility into one neat box is tricky.

I am keep knowledge of unseen (ilm-ul-ghaib) separate from the infallibility conversation. That is a different subject in my opinion and really misunderstood across the sects.

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Salam alaykom 

I am here again with a few questions regarding Imamate in the Zaidi creed :D 

So let’s say someone from the progeny of Al-Zahra (عليها السلام) who possesses all the qualities and fulfils all the preconditions of Imamate calls to himself and/or decides to revolt. What happens next - say, after the revolt is over (if there ever was one)? Are there Quranic verses that highlight his role as an Imam? I understand that his goal will be to uphold the Shari’a but as you know that can be very broad. 

Basically, my first question is what can we expect from him as an Imam, and are these expectations highlighted in Quran and hadith? 

My second question pertains to accountability. We can all agree that the infallibility doctrine (at least the one Twelvers adhere to) does not inhere within the Zaidi creed. So in this case a Zaidi Imam can err. I am just wondering, if this Imam makes a mistake which he initially thought to be minor, and only later realises its gravity due to lack of foresight, who will hold him accountable for this oversight and resultant destruction? Is there a framework which details, say, the amends the Imam must make to rectify the situation and avoid future mistakes?

God bless you

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Posted (edited)

Wā ‘alaykum as-Salam brother, he will rule through the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet and the glorious Quran. 

Like a Wali Faqih he can also err, but if he continues with his errancy he would be unfit for rulership and would have to step down to someone who is more qualified. 

The expectations are highlighted all over the Quran wherein Allah orders us to enjoin good, forbid evil, and establish the Hudud. This of course can only be done through an Islamic government. As for the Hadith the Holy Prophet (S) left for us his Ahlulbayt as guides as per Hadith Thaqalayn, Hadith of the Stars, Hadith of the ark, etc. 

Islam is a religion of action and a religion of spreading good, it isn’t about sitting in a corner for 1,000+ years and praying while Allah tells us regarding the oppressed:

Why is it that you do not fight in the way of Allah and in support of the helpless - men, women and children -who pray: 'Our Lord, bring us out of this land whose people are oppressors and appoint for us from Yourself, a protector, and appoint for us from Yourself a helper'? {4:75}

And Allah clearly prefers:

Those believers who sit at home, unless they do so out of a disabling injury, are not the equals of those who strive in the way of Allah with their possessions and their lives. Allah has exalted in rank those who strive with their possessions and their lives over those who sit at home; and though to each Allah has promised some good reward, He has preferred those who strive (in the way of Allah) over those who sit at home for a mighty reward. {4:95}

The best of the nation is clearly those who:

Enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah. {3:110}

Therefore, the Ahlulbayt follow the path of their father Ibrāhīm:

And wage jihad for the sake of Allah, a jihad which is worthy of Him. He has chosen you and has not placed for you any obstacle in the religion, the faith of your father, Abraham. He named you ‘Muslims’ before, and in this, so that the Apostle may be a witness to you, and that you may be witnesses to mankind. So maintain the prayer, give the zakat, and hold fast to Allah. He is your master—an excellent master and an excellent helper. {22:78}

As well all know:

There is for you in Qisas [saving of] life, O’ you people of understanding {2:179}

Of course if the government/nation is not treacherous like the Ummayads, Abbasids, the Shah of Iran, etc. The Zaidiyyah do not rise. Rather, they work towards improving the status of the Muslimeen through educating them, and seeking to ensure that the Shariah of Allah is maintained, and if necessary have a blessed Fatimid rise to rule (without Jihad) like Imam ‘Ali b. Musa Al-Ridha عليهم السلام.

Edited by Zaidism
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On 8/16/2021 at 10:34 AM, Zaidism said:

epistemological framework which differs from mine. Therefore, you won’t reach my conclusion, because it goes against what your epistemology says in terms of the Imams and the Prophet. 

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